Ahmadinejad: Atheism of big powers is rootcause of man's plight

[ECH1969]

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said here on Friday that the big powers' atheism is the rootcause of man's problems today.

Addressing a group of locals, President Ahmadinejad said the only remedy to the plight is recourse to God and injunctions of the divine messengers.

Ahmadinejad said the Iranian nation is on the path to progress, setting God Almighty as its ultimate goal.

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-236/0609014254165454.htm

[NYCGirl]

1. My God (no pun intended) — he sounds like a Republican!

;-)

[acmavm]

10. Your post made me laugh out loud because the first thing I

thought of is that he sounds like Smirky.

[arewenotdemo]

24. religious extremists are all blood brothers and sisters

They just don't realize it. Hopefully they never will.

[wordpix2]

70. my Iranian friend said Ahmadin. was installed by the religious wingnuts in

Iran. Also, he is backed by only about 10% of the populace but I guess this group has a stranglehold.

Leave it to BushCo to start a war where 90% of the people don't support the wacko leader of Iran. Great way for * to make friends ---bomb the people who like Ahmadin. even less than Bush does.

[geek tragedy]

2. Dear lord, won't he just shut the fuck up for once? eom

[acmavm]

13. Why? Has bush** shut up? They're both trying to out-crazy

the other I think.

[geek tragedy]

19. Uh, I wish Bush would STFU too. eom

[Warpy]

3. Really? We atheists see crackpot religions taken to extremes

as the root cause of most of the misery in the world. Class issues are a close second, and it can be argued that the two are inextricably combined.

A fundy is a fundy is a fundy, no matter what god they blame for being nasty, narrow, intolerant, humorless, and belligerent.

[mainegreen]

6. Bingo.

:thumbsup:

[Solly Mack]

20. ayup

[phillinweird247]

32. Well put! nt

[RadiDem]

44. Not just Fundies! Read 'The End of Faith' by Sam Harris

http://www.samharris.org/site/book_end_of_faith/

Religion Kills

[SoyCat]

90. Exactly. What wars have we started? Who have we persecuted?

[zonkers]

4. I think not letting peope wear shorts, dance, listen to jazz and all the

other stuff is pretty evil. So lets just agree to disagree, okay Prez?

[eallen]

5. Pat Robertson scratches head, responds, "well, sorta..."

It's amazing the thematic similarities that unit fundamentalist wackos from different religious traditions.

[rockymountaindem]

7. Where's the usual chorus of his defenders

telling us how he's just misunderstood?

[geek tragedy]

9. He's gone too far even for them. eom

[rockymountaindem]

14. I guess it's ok when he's bashing Christianity

and Israel and Bush... but lay off the Atheism, eh?

[geek tragedy]

18. Or denying the Holocaust. eom

[arewenotdemo]

29. well, that did piss me off

hopefully he'll go back to focusing on the real problem...his delusional religion's delusional competitors.

[Warren Stupidity]

49. I'm missing the part where this is a threatening statement.

He doesn't like atheism. Oh well, get in line. We are used to it. He blames secular states (which is what I assume he means here) for the world's woes. Lock step with the fundy wing to the Republican Party, our ruling party, our crypto-theocracy, on that belief. He might as well be Bennet or any number of other moralizing religious creeps, he might as well be Bush.

I don't agree with him but I find this statement uninteresting, like most of the other crap he has to say.

Not agreeing that Ahmadinejad is the boogeyman, evil incarnate, and proof that we need to nuke Iran, is not defending Ahmadinejad, it is opposition to the War Party's latest campaign to get another war on.

So why do you all play right along with the Hate Ahmadinejad mantra? Are you not aware that this is part of their effort to justify another chapter in their big neocon war?

[rockymountaindem]

53. I can dislike Ahmadinejad

without being in favor of invading Iran, Can't I? I play along with the "Hate Ahmadinejad mantra" because he is worthy of my scorn as an American and as a Jew and because I have seen no evidence to suggest that he is anything other than an unmitigated jackass.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Telly Savalas]

63. So Canadians who hate Bush are advocates of an invasion of the U.S.?

[rockymountaindem]

65. Evidently

I wish I could have seen the deleted comment, though.

[Zynx]

69. Just because Bush doesn't like a guy doesn't mean he's good.

For example, Kim Jong Il is one of the most evil men in the world today responsible for millions of his own people's deaths. Bush doesn't like him and I don't either.

[Zhade]

73. Great post.

The one you replied to was just ineffective snark aimed at us atheists. Ignore it, it's not even worthy of a response.

[leesa]

52. Oh please. I doubt atheists are that thin-skinned. So what if he bashes

atheists? Who doesn't? Most big businessmen, and certainly Bush, are atheists.

[Zhade]

74. We're remarkably thicker-skinned than some believers, apparently.

Thanks for the defense, leesa. You rock.

[wtmusic]

16. Most people need a big daddy in the sky

to tell them what's right and wrong, and are incapable of living morally without the threat of eternal damnation. In that sense, he's right.

[Warren Stupidity]

48. Seeing as how the last several thousand years

of human history are one where 'living morally' and 'belief in god' are generally not related, other than perhaps in an inversely proportional relationship, that is one of the oddest excuses for religion I know of.

[Zhade]

75. And then there are those of us who don't need myths to be good people.

It's actually remarkably easy to be a moral nonbeliever - I was worse as a Christian (who never really believed)!

[SutaUvaca]

23. Not as his defender

but as one trying to understand him, I think this use of the word "atheist" could well be a case of the common misinterpretation of the guys words. We only get western news agency type translations here I think. I'll add an insightful article link from CounterPunch that is interesting about the interpretations we hear. My current speculation is that he might well mean that our leaders do not actually follow the teaching of (their own) god (though claiming to) and therefore ungodly behavior results. IMHO

http://www.counterpunch.org/tilley08282006.html

[geek tragedy]

27. How about his reference to the "so-called Holocaust" which "has not

yet been verified."

The man isn't misunderstood or misinterpreted or having his words distorted.

He's simply a far-right hateful bigoted nutbar.

[Igel]

61. I don't.

I looked at your link and am always amazed by the sheer quantity of good will Ahmedinejad arouses in people. They read what he said, and find some way of spinning it in the best possible light.

Try saying things like "The black race must vanish from the pages of time" and see if that's not taken to be offensive. Or perhaps "Islam must vanish from the pages of time."

In other instances, the writer sets up a strawman: the myth of the Holocaust is placed above God. Which means, contrary to the way that most people read it, that the Holocaust is placed above God. And a rather less concise translation, meaning the same thing, is proffered to debunk the non-reading. Silliness.

There are two usual ways to reconcile the differences between the early Muslims and what Muhammed's alleged to have written. The first is to say the revelations were inferior from the get-go. This doesn't let anybody off the hook, because where the revelations contradict Muhammed there's still a problem. The second is that the followers of each prophet corrupted, intentionally, what was written. Ahmedinejad is unlikely to believe that Jesus or Moses came and issued all the words attributed to him any more than he is that Moses wrote all the words attributed to him. For some conflict with Islam. So unless 'injunctions of the prophets' is indirect speech, Ahmedinejad's speaking in *'s voice, he doesn't mean the Ahmedinejad-friendly interpretation.

The use of 'monotheism' in the next blip is consistent with this: Jesus as God is not monotheism. Tawhid is the unity of God, his singleness: there is only one, who has issued the substantially same message at least three times, only the last being complete. Ahmedinejad offered Islam to * and others; he's doing it again.

[Zhade]

76. I'm guessing, to a fundie like him, any non-Muslim...

...(as HE defines it, of course) is an "atheist", if this quote is accurate.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. Eh.

"Can it be that we, too, are ready to embrace the foul concepts of atheism? Somebody is tampering with America's soul, I leave it to you who that somebody is."

-- Robert Byrd

[Zhade]

77. Wow, Byrd really said that?

I just lost all respect for him.

I thought he was intelligent enough to realize atheism HAS no concepts, being at heart a simple lack of belief in gods.

[Warren Stupidity]

47. I have no idea if the translation is accurate.

There is of course a long history of western media distortions of what he has to say. However as he has not said anything here that President Stupid could really object to, my guess is that in this case it probably is a fairly accurate translation.

So is this statement more or less nutty that President Stupid announcing that god told him to go invade Iraq (but apparently forgot to tell him that there weren't any WMD)?

[sofa king]

8. Is this guy with the Kill All Muslims God or the Kill All Jews God?

[shain from kane]

15. Kill 'em all and let Allah sort them out. n/t

[sofa king]

26. Well played sir, well played.

Next week we'll be performing in that corner of Hell where DoYouEverWonder keeps his puns.

[hogwyld]

71. Well, at least my God

Doesn't run a brothel in heaven! (72 virgins reference)

[Ezlivin]

11. At our giant Atheist Convention last night....

Our evil leader told the millions of us restless atheists to do that voodoo that we do so well.

Now we will flood the streets persecuting the righteous Christians.

:eyes:

[progressoid]

12. ...setting God Almighty as its ultimate goal.

Sounds just like Amurika! (except with a different god)

[DavidDvorkin]

17. Time for the US and Iran to unite

in a CrusadeJihad against Europe.

[PATRICK]

21. Which ones are declared atheists?

I think if he stating the hypocrisy and practical atheism he is using the wrong language and reasoning.
He does indeed sound like all the other exploiters of popular religion. That renders a real discussion or real spirituality as a plus for worldly leaders something moot and apart from this unfortunate declaration. Or he could be getting misquoted again. Is it atheism or "infidel"?

Curiously this is the Iranian site itself. the French translation is very different, no mention at all of the red flag insult atheism, but a description of the godless ways of the US and Britain. Different speech segments and translation for different nations. The English version thus is deliberately confrontational at the cost of painting a false version of his words.

That is more interesting than the message itself. This site itself is playing into the prejudicial name calling in America.

[geek tragedy]

25. How do we know that the French version is more accurate than the English

version?

The IRNA version is 100% accurate as far as he goes--it is his own personal mouthpiece.

[w4rma]

28. Because this isn't a 3rd party translation. His own people translated

the English version. I have no idea about the French version. Agreeing with you.

[PATRICK]

30. We don't

but the point is that this is what the Iranians want each nation to see. A thumb in our eye making Mr. A look rabid and a statesmanlike speech to French, which is what they want to hear. The net effect is to help the US stay nuts and ill-informed while showing a different side, deliberately to everyone else. It seems a deliberate process to isolate the US.

If someone knows Arabic the whole speech probably has something for everyone but likely much much more for the Arab world and Iran in particular.

James Thurber's "The Catbird Seat" comes to mind. A guy drives a powerful enemy to ruin by posing as a loon in front of her alone, then acting totally innocent and sane when she triumphantly tries to accuse him in public. They take her away raving, of course. She didn't have nukes though.

[geek tragedy]

31. Except that more people in Europe speak English than

French, let alone the entire planet.

He may be speaking out of both sides of his mouth, but he's 100% on the record as making these statements now.

[PATRICK]

33. Except that as a general strategy

even though everything is available, very different speech segments are available according to language. In others it is plain the heaviest remarks are aimed speicifcally against the US and britian for specific imperialistic, aggressive policies. They don't bother in the English offering to edit the speech to show that but allow it to be a propagandist source up to the point it needs no further editing to be simply used by the antagonistic propaganda here.

It seems there is a conscious Iranian choice here unless the translator is working for Bushco.

[geek tragedy]

34. I agree that he's trying to poke a stick in the eye of the US.

I just think that it's not going to work too well, considering that:

A) English is the most commonly spoken language on the planet; and

B) Holocaust denial and especially anti-secular rhetoric are probably more offensive to Europeans than they are to people in the US.

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. Are you sure they're the same speech?

The French one you're describing seems to be this:

Le chef d’Etat iranien dans le cadre de sa 19ème tournée dans les provinces iraniennes a déclaré jeudi après-midi à la population de Pyranshar dans la province de l’Azerbaïdjan occidental que l’arrogance mondiale inflige des maux comme la pauvreté, la discrimination, la corruption, la violence gratuite et l’occupation n’offrant ainsi qu’un futur sans horizon et de lourdes blessures à l’humanité.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad a déclaré que l’origine de tous ces malheurs réside de l’éloignement des grandes puissances de l’enseignement divin et de la voie des prophètes et tout ce qui s’éloigne de la voie de Dieu et du Prophète tombent dans le piège de Satan.


Le président iranien a souligné que partout dans le monde où sont présents les Etats-Unis et la Grande-Bretagne sont présents, la dictature et la terreur sévissent. Ces deux pays se sont éloignés de la voie de Dieu et du prophète et se sont engagés sur la voie du diable.

http://www.irna.ir/fr/news/view/menu-306/0608313944230828.htm

That's Thursday in Pyranshar; the OP was Friday in Salmas. It looks like he's on a tour on West Azarbaijan, but may not be giving the same speech in each town. However, although it seems a lot more gets put up in English on the IRNA website, they didn't put up an English version of the Thursday Pyranshar speech, though this, in Orumiyeh, looks similar - though without the explicit reference to the US and UK in the report. I'd agree they may be doing it to emphasise different messages in different countries (knowing most media will take the translation given to them, rather than getting a complete original and translating it all themselves). I guess that's one PR advantage a 'minority' language country has.

[Igel]

62. That's actually more explicit than the English, isn't it?

The references to Islam are more implied in the English, and more explict in the French.

[Eurobabe]

22. Just another band of Rapture Rangers

Same message, different country.

[daleo]

36. The term "secularism" would probably be better

That implies nothing about religious belief per se, just how belief is played out in the public realm. I don't know if the translation catches that nuance or not - it may be irrelevant to fundamentalists.

Secularists are not necessarily atheists, and atheists are not necessarily secularists. Secularists can be quite religious in private, and atheists can be quite religious in public.

For the record, I don't agree with him, but lots of religious people in the Christian, Islamic, Jewish, and Hindu worlds seem to be on board with this sentiment. That's why these "ten commandments" statues and the like are pushed so hard.

Note this also:
"He said strong faith in God and monotheism are the key to durable peace and calm."

Some Muslims don't think Christianity is monotheism, as they have a tough time with the concept of the Trinity.

[bluestateguy]

37. Such a shame his mother didn't have an abortion

nt

[Jack Rabbit]

38. A question

Does Mr. Ahmadinejad regard atheism as the disbelief in God or in the disbelief that the Koran is the word of God?

[Demeter]

39. NO, I Don't Think So

that dog won't hunt. Now, if he'd mentioned godless capitalism, or even god-driven capitalism, he might make a viable case....

[PATRICK]

41. Other parts of the speech

are talking more about deviation from values and religious values more than atheism, more about the genuine versus the hypocritical. Only in the English version do I easily find this stand alone reference to "atheistic" leaders from that speech.

At least it is more worthwhile to listen to the whole texts if we are going to evaluate selections that match various propaganda sensations. Of course listening to these long speeches in their entirety, whether Castro length oratory or, heaven help us, Bush, is a rigorous discipline. We should be wise to decrease the level of passion and judgment according to our fair knowledge level.

[The Stranger]

40. There is no difference between him and Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.

[kurth]

42. This "divine messenger" needs to be returned to sender ASAP

along with his wingnut brethren in the other brands of religion.

[Spinoza]

45. Dear Mr. Ahmadinejad ,

I have to go now. I'm due back on planet earth.

(With due credit to Woody Allen)

[GOPBasher]

46. He should get together with Falwell. They should love each other. n/t

[Superman Returns]

50. will some wake up?

Ahmadinejad and his ilk are not friends to liberalism or progressive values. They are anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-moderenity, anti-democratic. The U.S. is headed in the wrong directions, but dont say we are living in modern day Iran. Just because he slams Bush doesn't mean he has the same agenda. He is a theocrat.

[leesa]

51. Hey, it ain't us atheists causing the problems...

[JI7]

54. notice all these religious nutcases fight each other

and yet they always seem to blame atheists for whatever problems there are. even though people like Bush, Bin Laden, etc all claim to be doing whatever they do in God's name.

where is the atheist in all of this ? there are none who are playing a prominent role in the world affairs.

[nolabels]

79. Us people who are not outwardly trying inflict our beliefs on others......

are actually part of an evil plot from the dark side that inflicts believers subliminally :crazy:

[Mythsaje]

55. Right, and god only knows

RELIGION has never caused any problems in the world.

:sarcasm:

When was the last time you heard of atheists going to war with fellow atheists for disbelieving in the wrong deity?

[Jeroen]

56. Oh please...in his book every non-Muslim is an 'atheist'

That include Christians. He is not referring to atheism 'as we know it'.
Conservative Muslims only differentiate between Muslims and non believers.
And this non-believer is translated to atheist in that press release.
In his eyes there is no difference between any of us.


Edit: typo

[muriel_volestrangler]

57. No, that's not what he thinks at all

For instance, he sent a letter to Bush saying he thinks Bush should follow what Jesus said more closely:

In a passage which Iranian interpreters say is conciliatory, but which Washington diplomats are hardly likely to interpret that way, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad draws to a close by declaring: “Mr President, it is not my intention to distress anyone. If the prophets Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael, Joseph or Jesus Christ (PBUH) were with us today, how would they have judged such behaviour? Will we be given a role to play in the promised world, where justice will become universal and Jesus Christ (PBUH) will be present? Will they even accept us?”

He then goes on: “My basic question is this: Is there no better way to interact with the rest of the world? Today there are hundreds of millions of Christians, hundreds of millions of Muslims, and millions of people who follow the teachings of Moses (PBUH). All divine religions share and respect one word and that is monotheism or belief in a single God and no other in the world.”

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_060511iran.shtml

[Warren Stupidity]

59. Can't we just distort everything he says?

It is so much easier to hate him and not care so much when we start the wholesale slaughter of Iranians if we can just make shit up and practice our hate on him.

[geek tragedy]

66. There's no need to make stuff up to hate this evil S.O.B.`

At the same time, there's also absolutely no need to use military force against Iran.

[Igel]

64. The question is,

What does he believe Jesus said?

Does he accept what a number of archconservative Muslims believe, and what can even be found in print in Pakistani and Sa'udi English-language newspapers, that Christians after Jesus' death wilfully corrupted his message and the text? That Jesus was a Muslim, with an incomplete, and therefore inferior revelation, but one that does not contradict Muhammed's? That by assigning "son of God" status to Jesus that they are no longer truly monotheist?

This view is mildly schizophrenic, of course, since the doctrines have changed trivially since Muhammed declared them "People of the Book" and monotheists. As with things dietary, it makes for inconsistencies, with "corrupt, but close enough for us to tolerate" being about the best generalization for many conservatives.

Or does Ahmedinejad believe that the texts attributed to Jesus are authentic, even where there aren't great overlaps between two 'revelations'?

Interesting question of semantics. One that often ends in linguistic dead ends, but which makes conclusions based upon them (frequently, conclusions in either direction) difficult given the snippets available.

[kineneb]

72. People of the Book

Islam recognizes Judaism and Christianity as fellow People of the Book (Old Testament) and spiritual decedents of Abraham and Moses. The use of the word "atheist" probably refers more to non-believers- those who are not People of of the Book, of whatever variety. Ol' Ahmedinejad is their nut case, just like George-Bubba is ours.

[ckramer]

60. US is "one nation under god" - so what is he talking about?

Well this guy is crazy. That's for sure. But he is also as arrogant as Bush.

[gulliver]

67. Bush is an atheist.

The God Bush thinks he believes in is not the real God. Bush worships himself.

[Zhade]

78. No, he's not an atheist.

If, as you say, he worships homself, he's NOT an atheist, because we don't worship anyone. Period.

As to what he thinks he believes in, neither you nor I can read his mind on that matter.

[orpupilofnature57]

80. Nor could he read 60 books in a decade ,in practice he is atheistic

[Zhade]

81. And what, exactly, does that mean?

Atheism is simply not believing in gods. That's it. How can he act atheistic? Does he profess to not believing in gods?

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zhade]

84. Um...what?

Atheism is the lack of belief. There is no belief involved in atheism (strong atheism the exception). How can actions denote the absence of something?

[trotsky]

88. Fuck that!

If someone does bad things, that means they're an atheist?

That's outrageously bigoted and ignorant.

[Random_Australian]

85. Bush? An Atheist? I think not!

What is with all the church-visiting, Lord-invoking & calling himself Christian then?

[stepnw1f]

86. Good Point

but he still won't consider himself to be an atheist, because whatever he believes in, he considers to be a "god". Even if that is himself. So no, he isn't an atheist. Plus it gives atheists a bad name associating Bush with atheism. He's just a dirt bag using religiosity for his misdeeds.

[trotsky]

87. Interesting.

So do all atheists worship themselves?

Are all atheists evil?

Or, if someone is evil, is that proof they're an atheist?

[Straight Shooter]

68. Good! Let's start a debate on the world stage re: the power of religion.

"Mad-in-de-head" and bush can square off and defend their respective security blankets for all the world to see. Bring it on, you two nutcases. Start a rip-roaring dialogue about which God is bigger and better. Let the world judge your religions by the fruit it bears.

bush and "mad-in-de-head," two foul beings, each possessing a serpent's tongue, hissing at one another.

[many a good man]

83. In defense of Ahmadinejad

To the traditional conservative Muslim, Satan represents the "Tempter." It is the force that tempts men to stray from the teachings and brings harm to self and community. Women are covered because the female flesh tempts men by taking their minds off God and causes some to put their selfish desires before family and community. It protects women from men who are not able to overcome temptation.

The United States (and by extension the West) is considered the "Great Satan" because our greatest export is culture, not liberal democracy. Primarily movies, music, and consumerism. Prior to the cultural revolution of the 1960s, America was quite prudish and the backlash to change was and is still quite severe. The vast majority of the world was even more prudish than the United States. The backlash is even more severe abroad because this invasion of culture is "foreign."

American economic and military imperialism is also seen as temptation. They see quite clearly the objective is not the spread of liberal democracy, but profit and greed. Wealth and greed are contagious and a dangerous threat to traditional values.

I say this not to defend backward beliefs, but in response to my fellow progressives who believe the only proper reaction is condemnation and hatred. If we really want to help those who are oppressed by this ideology we have to address it from a position of understanding. Aggressively denouncing people's cultural beliefs leads to a defensive reaction which only strengthens the grip of the oppressors over their society.

We see this clearly in Iran's reaction to our country's increased hostility (e.g., "axis of evil"). Moderates in Iran were making great gains, but this hostility led to a backlash that gave greater power to the religious extremists. This backlash leads to an even greater hostility from the United States. If progressives join in this cycle of doom there will be no hope for the future.

I think many progressives cannot empathize with the discomfort felt by many traditional cultural conservatives because we are smart enough to avoid wrecking our lives and families by enjoying the fruits of freedom. Most people can drink and not become alcoholics. Some can do cocaine and other drugs without ruining their careers. Others can watch sex or violence on TV without it triggering immoral or criminal behavior. But we ignore the fact that far too many fall prey. Look at the astronomical rates of violence, rape, incest, pedophilia, and homicide that we have here in our country.

I'm not blaming freedom for these ills, but clearly some people cannot handle the large degree of freedom we enjoy here. As progressives we seek to ameliorate the social conditions that lead people to fall prey to these social problems. By doing so we can help our fellow man enjoy freedom without degrading society. We need to build a society where traditional conservative do not have to fear freedom or see it as an unbearable temptation for ruination. To do this requires understanding, not hostility.

[and-justice-for-all]

89. So now its Atheisim as well as "Zionist"???

What a moron...Zionist and Islam are identical, and pointing the finger at Atheist (Like myself) is NOT the rootcause of anything.

Religious Fundamental extremist are ther ROOTCAUSE of all the troubles in the world.

FUCK YOUR LORD!

[Master of Disaster]

91. Well, that's what his magic book says, so he believes it.