Canada: Orthodox Jew forced off plane

[sabra]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154526016533&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Canada: Orthodox Jew forced off plane

An Orthodox Jewish man was removed from an Air Canada Jazz flight in Montreal last week for praying, the Canadian Broadcast Corporation reported on Wednesday.

The man was a passenger on a Sept. 1 flight from Montreal to New York City when the incident occurred.

The airplane was heading towards the runway at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau International Airport when eyewitnesses said the Orthodox man began to pray.

"He was clearly a Hasidic Jew," said Yves Faguy, a passenger seated nearby. "He had some sort of cover over his head. He was reading from a book.

...

The action didn't seem to bother anyone, Faguy said, but a flight attendant approached the man and told him his praying was making other passengers nervous.

[ShortnFiery]

1. Oh Canada! Get a grip. :P eom

[Darth_Kitten]

93. Oh, and this thing hasn't happened many, many......

times in America?

[Coyote_Bandit]

2. Why aren't

the fundies who proselytize to the captive passenger seated next to them removed?

[Irreverend IX]

80. I love it when that happens to me.

Gives me an opportunity to try converting the fundie to Satanism.

[bluestateguy]

3. That's the thing about profiling and rampant fear

it often goes in directions that you never intended and cannot control. Defenders of so-called religious profiling at airports should remember that.

[LostinVA]

4. Some idiots on the plane probably thought he was Muslim

And no, that couldn't be a legit reason for kicking him off the plane, either.

[Gormy Cuss]

10. Muslim, Hasid, Sikh, whatever.

They're all strange looking and not Christian. :sarcasm:

Nothing shocks me anymore.

[LostinVA]

19. You got it...

[muesa]

58. That's it

Not Christian --- looks strange -- Muslim, Sikh, Orthodox Jew, Eastern Orthodox Christian priest, whatever.

Americans are very insular.

[Der Blaue Engel]

68. "Americans are very insular" - true, but this was Canada n/t

[muesa]

71. Good catch

I go to Vancouver to feel "at home."

[CHIMO]

84. Jewish man removed from airplane for praying

Jewish man removed from airplane for praying
Last Updated: Tuesday, September 5, 2006 | 11:12 PM ET
CBC News


"The attendant actually recognized out loud that he wasn't a Muslim and that she was sorry for the situation but they had to ask him to leave," Faguy said.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2006/09/05/qc-hasidicprayeronplane.html

[Henny Penny]

89. So who decides that someone has to leave the plane?

One passenger on his/her own? A group of two or more? Do they take a vote??? This is completely crazy and rather frightening... the kind of thing that led to Kristalnacht. Though this time against Muslims, assuming the thugs can tell the difference between a Muslim and a member of some other religious/ethnic group.

[Vidar]

5. Poetic justice or just sad?

[QuettaKid]

7. just sad. nt.

.

[geek tragedy]

14. How would that be poetic justice?

Is there something about this chap I don't know?

[rinsd]

16. Poetic justice?

Wait I thought Israel did not equal all jews?

Or is that just another bullshit talking point by other antisem-....err...zionists.

[Vidar]

46. My answer to my own question is "just sad", but I'm glad your

telepathic powers exceed my meager self-knowledge.

[rinsd]

50. Sorry.

I felt it was left up to interpretation and considering the climate on DU....well I hope you understand it was an honest mistake and that I am sorry.

[Vidar]

55. Very gracious of you. Thank you.

[Lurking Dem]

56. So why even pose the question?

I'm confused.

[Karenina]

76. Freedom of speech

And freedom to point out, question and seek others' opinions of the INANITY that is taking place on this planet with homo sapiens thinking THEY are somehow "in charge."

Today a religiously observant, innocent man was targetted just as so many "others" have been. The irony is stunning and it's all so WAY PAST STUPID.

[TlalocW]

6. Jews on a Plane!

Starring Samuel L. Jackson and Billy Crystal.

TlalocW

[rinsd]

17. Now that was funny

[xchrom]

24. thank you for that!

i will have scenes from a movie that doesn't exist in my head all day.

[davidinalameda]

40. wouldn't it be Sammy Davis Jr. instead of Samuel L. Jackson

:shrug:

[AnneD]

63. I can see it now...

No stewardess' here, just Jewish grandmother passing out the food trays and forcing passangers to eat and instead of drink-handing out chicken soup. Jewish mothers in the over head making sure you have enough luggage for your guilt trip. Oy and the match making-no single person would be safe. Crying babies would be attacked by hundreds of grandmothers-no child's cheek would be safe. Ahhh, the possibilities are endless. I could pitch this to Mel Brooks.

[Cronus Protagonist]

70. Oh, the horror, THE HORROR!

Joe Lieberman in a cameo appearance?

:evilgrin:

[smirkymonkey]

79. Oy vey!

Very funny. I can just picture it - Woody Allen should write the script.

[AnneD]

99. Naaah...

Allen isn't funny in that way. You need someone over the top. Mel Brooks, definantly Mel Brooks. Besides, Mel wanted to do Jews In Space (Star Wars Knock Off).

[Sabriel]

83. They'll have to re-write Jackson's famous line:

"Oy! Schtupp these snakes! I've had genug of them on this meshuga plane."

[regularguy]

98. Facacta SNAKES on a facacta PLANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Demeter]

90. Thanks Guys! I REALLY Needed a Chuckle This Morning

Can you repackage this as a stand-alone thread?

[asjr]

8. Finally! I have now heard it all.

[savemefromdumbya]

9. He should sue the airlines! so does that mean one can't pray?

[plasticsundance]

23. He should definately sue.

Or write to the company and identify the flight attendant who told him to stop. He should get it on record to see if this is a policy that the airline will stand behind. It could go a long way in making bad publicity for the airline company, depending on how the airline chooses to play it.

[Karenina]

62. He and a Muslim

(there have been SO MANY incidents of M-o-a-P angst, I'm CERTAIN he could find someone EASILY) should file a JOINT class action suit! :rofl:

[warrens]

36. Aloud, no

I mean, unless you want people shrieking to Satan to protect his blood-drinking sons and daughters during takeoff.

[Amonester]

82. Yes. I agree he should sue them.

In fact, all people who are victims of such unjust measures should sue the airline corporations.

[no_hypocrisy]

11. Last year, three Islamic students were forced to leave Giants

Stadium in East Rutherford, New Jersey for praying. When is this nonsense going to end?

[54anickel]

85. What, and no Dobson, prayer in public advocates around to take

up their cause? Oh, sorry. Either wrong prayer, wrong god, wrong skin tone or some combination thereof. :eyes:

[JNelson6563]

95. Excellent point 54!

Apparently Dobson and his gang are only out to protect the rights of persecuted Christians. Jews, Muslims and all others need not apply.

Oy!

[daleo]

12. A link to the CBC story

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2006/09/05/qc-hasidicprayeronplane.html

The obvious nature of the praying may have had something to do with it:

""He wasn't exactly praying out loud but he was lurching back and forth," Faguy added.

The action didn't seem to bother anyone, Faguy said, but a flight attendant approached the man and told him his praying was making other passengers nervous."

-----------------------
Flying used to bother me - I don't know if someone praying on the flight would have made me more or less nervous (I mean fear of flying, not fear of terrorism). Nonetheless, the airline seems to have gone overboard, just as has been the case with kicking Muslims off flights on other airlines. There should be a reasonably high barrier to denying a paid up passenger his right to fly - not some vague nervousness on the part of other passengers or the crew. Most of the time that just amounts to some type of prejudice.

[sakabatou]

21. "...he was lurching back and forth..."

He was bowing, you asshat.

[Lurking Dem]

47. It's called davening.

[sakabatou]

60. My fault for not being in shul as often as I should.

[Lurking Dem]

67. The High Holidays

have absolutely nothing to do with marijuana. :P

[MindPilot]

28. Too bad that prejudice can't be extended to the bratty kid

kicking the back of my seat or the ubiquitous self-important bitchy passenger loudly squawking about every minor inconvenience.

Ahh, wishful thinking. (Some may call it prayer) :D

[daleo]

41. Amen. n/t

[Roon]

13. Can you imagine if a muslim or a sikh

started praying on an airline? any airline? people would be going apeshit!

[Betsy Ross]

15. Praying while taxiing

is a common thing for religious Jews. We pray before starting a long trip. As a plane begins its taxi can be considered the beginning of such a journey. Been there; done that.

[Bridget Burke]

25. Coming into the Guadalajara airport in a heavy thunderstorm....

I almost asked the lady across the aisle if she had an extra Rosary.

I hadn't used one in many years, but airline travel can awaken (or reawaken) the need for prayer. This Lapsed Catholic semi-Pagan would be glad to see evidence of any positive energy in certain situations.

[Benhurst]

18. At least it wasn't the pilot. Now THAT would make me nervous. NT

[zreosumgame]

20. so the new 'equation' is

praying = violence? Um, well, yaknow, that's as bad as forcing someone to only pray the way one cult approves of.

[Miss Chybil]

22. I wonder how much time in Guantanamo he'll get for that.

Oh, sorry. Wrong country. Wrong religion. All this hate and fear is getting so confusing.

[Bake]

26. What if it had it been a Christian?

Making folks nervous by praying loudly? I suspect there would be cheers going on on this thread.

Bake

[MindPilot]

27. As long as we're taking a trip to hypothetical land...

Christians would lobby to pass a law requiring the captain to say the Lord's Prayer over the intercom and call it "keeping America safe."

[krispos42]

45. Oooo... we can have the Pentacostals doing the God Dance

On the plane. You know, when filled with the Lord's power they start shimmeying and shakings. I'm sure the fundies and passengers would approve. They can even do some snake handling1

[Uncle Roy]

69. "Handling Snakes on a Plane" Nice!

Shakers and Quakers and Sufis and Sikhs. Oh NO!

Are we there yet?

[AnneD]

101. Sorry Dorthy....

we're not in Kabul anymore. Just follow the Road to Bagdad and the Wizard can get you home in your own private box, Sunni rather than later. Shi'ite are we ever screwed. The good witch of the east can't get us out of this mess.

[Jacobin]

75. Not if they were speaking in tongues

Actually, i don't care what people do to get off, as long as they leave me out of it

[Spazito]

29. I am unable to find anything in the Canadian news on this....

I will keep looking. I do not trust the Jerusalem Post and will wait until this incident shows up in a credible news outlet.

It was the Jerusalem Post that circulated the outrageous lie about Jews in Iran having to wear an identifying color and our right-wing paper, the National Post was quick to spread it yet they have nothing on this story, so their credibility is very suspect, imo.

[sabra]

31. here's one:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2006/09/05/qc-hasidicprayeronplane.html

[Spazito]

35. Thanks, sabra, much appreciated....

I had checked CBC's main site and it had nothing, I didn't think to go to the specific Montreal coverage.

I agree with the article re giving flight attendants sensitivity training and it wouldn't hurt to give some to the passenger/s who complained as well not to mention some cultural sensitivity training as well given, it seems, the complaints stemmed from the belief from the complaining passenger/s that the man in question was a muslim and therefore suspect.

[Trajan]

43. Regarding the J Post ....

It was once the personal media outlet of Richard Perle, who controlled the purse strings in the holding corporation (Hollinger ???), who sat on it's Board Of Directors, and who published many of his columns in it .... Other Neocons of his ilk also used the J Post as their direct propaganda conduit .... Krauthammer, 'Bibi' and the like ....

The J Post is the voice of war and hatred, as far as I am (and many others are) concerned ...

Yeah: ... MANY western and Eastern news outlets preach hatred and war, but they get little credence here .... and so should the J Post ....

As far as the removal is concerned: This Atheist believes that praying during the take-off of an aircraft is a reasonable response to fear ..... I wouldnt, but I certainly understand the overwhelming fear ....

[Zhade]

72. Not to mention Richard Perle was on their board of directors.

Not sure if he remains on it, though.

[Amonester]

30. No "bad intended individual" would ever think about such disguise.

~snip~
"The airline is not saying if the man was told he was not allowed to pray, but a spokesperson said the man was back on board the next flight to New York.

Jewish leaders in Montreal criticized the move as insensitive, saying the flight attendants should have explained to the other passengers that the man was simply praying and doing no harm."


Pray a *little* less and use the "spared time" to learn a few words in English instead? :shrug:

[nodehopper]

73. xenophobic much?

[maxsolomon]

32. why can't the flight attendants tell 'other passengers' to buck up

why must we cater to the most ignorant, fearful & oversensitive in any group?

he's hasidim, not Al Queda. & it is OBVIOUS, you ignoramuses.

[zreosumgame]

33. sorry, but being 'obviously' of a group is an excuse now?

This is a direct result of the fear sown regarding ANYONE of non-white english speaking groups. And yes it has been sown by the GOP, and by the IDF. Deal with that fear, not your bigotry.

[maxsolomon]

38. i don't think i understand you post

are you criticizing me or agreeing with me?

its pretty easy to recognize a hasidic jew vs. a muslim - i knew how the men dressed before i ever saw one - after all, i saw The Chosen with Robby Benson & Rod Steiger!

:yoiks:

[Amonester]

34. Maybe not speaking (at least a few words...) in English in...

countries where English is (one of) the official language could be considered being ignorant too.

Just sayin'...

[Spazito]

37. I disagree, whether one can speak "the language" or not they should

NOT be treated ANY differently than one who can whether that language be English or any other.

[zreosumgame]

42. yep, that is just silly

having a launguage test before entering a country? LOL yeah, that will work!

[Amonester]

44. Since the English language is considered to be like THE...

"universal" language (in this day and age), I think it's not being ignorant to at least try to learn it enough of it.

Such (even-minimal-if-need-be) knowledge can always be very helpful anywhere.

C'est la vie.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. LOL.

At least you command of French is admirable.

:eyes:

[Amonester]

53. Should I take that as an...

insult (or not)? :shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. Oh, of course not.

I happen to think that the sort of person who thinks that everybody should speak English is a nazi dipshit.

But I've got nothing personal against you.

[Amonester]

59. Thank you.

I try to learn the English language as much as I can. I apologize if I make (so many) mistakes.

I do understand how much every person who is honest must be feeling insulted by being treated the way they were in in those planes (so far, and we wish that those cases would be the last but I am afraid they won't be...), and I just want to make clear that my feelings of being insulted or not aren't in any way comparable as theirs (in the sense of: mine is almost nothing compared to theirs).

Look, we all want this madness to stop but too many "profiteers" don't. We have to work together to end the madness.

[Spazito]

57. Actually, in many places in the world, French is considered essential

over English, it is only in the "western world" that people think English is so important.

[Amonester]

61. I agree, and in those *few* (important) instances, it's not being...

ignorant to try to learn (at least enough words) of the national language(s) in order to (again, at least) try to sort out any *troubling* situations that could happen anytime (and not just in English- or French-speaking countries).

Thank you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. Oh, I don't think so.

I think the idea that people don't travel to foriegn countries without speaking the language is ignorant.

[LostinVA]

48. Oh boy...

[Solon]

64. What they hell are you babbling about? n/t

[Amonester]

81. Quoi??

Je m'excuse mais je ne comprends pas votre question.

[The Stranger]

49. This happens every week or so to Muslims -- where is the outcry then?

[Amonester]

52. "two men of Asian appearance apparently talking Arabic."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2465416

[nodehopper]

74. right here on DU.

[No Exit]

96. THANK YOU.

Now, listen there, you, you haven't been studying your lists of Bad Guys and Good Guys. Muslims are Bad Guys. 'kay?

It's okay for other religions--Christianity and Judaism--to be openly dedicated and observant. It is NOT okay for Muslims to do so. Got it? Or am I gonna have to report you to Commander Codpiece? :)

[KamaAina]

65. This has got to go on Colbert's Threatdown

Threat #2: Jews! :sarcasm:

Can it be that Harper has already succeeded in turning the Great White North into America Jr.? :puke:

[Amonester]

66. No he has not succeeded and he's going down, not up.

Harper is back where he was last year in the polls.

At least, he's not going up and that means no majority gov. for the lil' bush lover.

Now if the majority in the center and the center-left could begin to agree on somethin'...

[msmcghee]

77. It's amazing how the word Jew or Muslim . .

. . can cause such a furor here on DU.

The cabin attendant was in a position of responsibility for maintaining the well being and sense of security of all the passengers on board. She was trained for the job and obviously took her role seriously.

It seems to me that such moving back and forth with eyes closed and muttering something could be disturbing to some passengers. Risk is a factor of both probability and the possible consequences.

Based on her statements, I think she was reasonably sure that the probability was low but factored in the possible consequences for being wrong - and concluded there was some risk - and expected reasonably that some other passengers would conclude the same thing.

I also think that people who feel a need to express their religious passions should do so when and where it is unlikely to make others uncomfortable - especially where others' safety is involved. If his religious beliefs required him to rock back and forth in a way that some would find unusual - and he just couldn't do it before or after the flight - perhaps he should have taken a train out of consideration for the other passengers or just not done it at all. I doubt he would have to spend eternity in hell for that.

These are not easy times to travel. IMO passengers should not expect that their particular religious practices are more important than the sense of security of the several hundred other passengers on a plane. Most people who found it disturbing would not say so out of fear of being seen as religiously insensitive. They would expect that the trained cabin attendant would make that decision on their behalf - and she did.

Travelers should expect that the airline personnel would not expose them to unnecessarily disturbing religious practices of other travelers. Remember that almost all airline crashes caused by human intent have been caused by persons who believed their God wanted them to kill people in his name. Very few have been caused for secular reasons - although that happens. Those who insist on displaying their religious practices in public are certainly in the category of those who take their religion with a certain impositional seriousness - because that's what they are doing. Itzak Rabin was assasinated in 1995 by a religious Jew.

Yigal Amir, a 27-year-old Jewish law student, told police that he had "no regrets" and was acting on the "orders of God." According to Israeli radio, when he was told that Rabin died in surgery after being shot in the arm and back, Amir said, "I'm satisfied."

If he was a Muslim and knelt down on the floor to do his prayers toward Mecca people would justifiably have freaked out. By not removing the Jew under similar circumstances the airline would rightly be seen as profiling. In this case they obviously were not.

We all have to deal with shit when we travel by plane these days. He should not have expected that his religion was more important than the comfort of the other passengers. The cabin attendant did the right thing IMO.

[Henny Penny]

91. Bullshit. n/t

[praeclarus]

97. i'll second that bullshit

[Biernuts]

78. It's not wise to be religous (any faith) in Canada! n/t

[Amonester]

86. That's not true.

C'est faux...

[Darth_Kitten]

94. Uh, if there is a place for tolerance, it's Canada.

:eyes:

[NorthernSpy]

102. Word! Last time I was in Canada, I had to step over the smoldering...

... carcasses of persecuted Christians on my way to purchase a fresh doughnut for breakfast. Yes, they start the persecutions that early in the morning! Those Canadians are a busy folk. Intolerant, but very diligent. Their national symbol is the beaver and the doughnut.

Also, it is cold in Canada. When in Canada, I do as the Canadians do: I rub my hands over the smoldering carcasses of persecuted Christians while waiting for the bus. Those Canadians are an intelligent folk. They know how to keep warm.


:dunce:

[breakaleg]

103. Based on what? You couldn't be more wrong.

[oblivious]

87. The flight attndant should have slapped the complainants like on'Airplane'

They say more than one complained. That likely means two people complained. Then they say "the crew had to act in the interest of the majority of passengers". Bullshit.

You can see what the crew's mindset is when they felt it necessary to aknowledge "out loud" he wasn't Muslim.

This is definitely material for the next 'Airplane' sequel.

[Stockholm]

88. Racial profiling in all its glory!

Extremely sad, but a good example of the core principles of a racist policy.

This time a Hasidic Jew, earlier a Sikh, next time ?. Somehow I don´t think the next terrorist will wear traditional clothes. Come to think of it, didn´t the 9/11 terrorists wear jeans and shirts?

[CJCRANE]

92. Too many people

been watching that Team America puppet movie where the terrorists have long beards and headgear.

[Nikki Stone 1]

100. Maybe loud praying activates the fears of some airline passengers

I think that may have been the motivation here. Lots of folks have trepidation about flying, and I'll bet a good many pray silently, especially since 9/11. Praying that way probably alleviates fears. Loud praying, though, may do just the opposite. Anybody with a fear of crashing or terrorists or a "water landing" (love that euphemism) might actually get alarmed by overt, loud praying--like there's a good reason to grab that seat cushion and get ready to jump. Or, they might worry that the person moving back and forth and chanting might actually be off his Haldol and ready to smash another passenger with a food tray.

Seriously, it seems to have been the disruption and not the prayer that actually alarmed the flight attendant. There's a lot that can upset people in a plane, and the flight attendant might have wanted to keep fears to a minimum, especially post 9/11.