Ban on gay rabbis may be lifted

[deadparrot]

NEW YORK - A key Conservative Jewish leader is organizing talks nationwide to tell synagogues that the movement will likely roll back its ban on ordaining openly gay rabbis by year's end.

He and two religious law experts joining him at the meetings are trying to help congregations prepare for the confusion and discomfort to follow.

Rabbi Jerome Epstein, executive vice president of the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, says a committee of scholars who interpret Jewish law for the movement will likely loosen the prohibition when they vote in December.

At the same time, Epstein expects the scholars will endorse a policy aiming to keep more traditional congregations within the fold. Synagogues that believe Jewish law bars same-sex relationships still will be able to hire rabbis who share their view.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060907/ap_on_re_us/conservative_jews_gays

[bluestateguy]

1. Most sects of Judaism are very progressive

nt

[jayctravis]

42. How do they know if the rabbits are gay?

:)

I'm kidding, I misread that subject line twice!

[JI7]

2. i know of some gay Rabbis

and one Jewish woman told me her Rabbi was gay and atheist .

with this group moving in the right direction, which JEwish group remains the most conservative ? the orthodox ?

[Behind the Aegis]

7. Some info...

When Jews say "conservative," it is not what most think. It is not like the conservative political movement; it has more do with traditions and interpretations of the Torah and Talmud. Although some of the conservative congregations do hold some socially/politically conservative stances, not all of them do. There are three ways I describe my religion to others by stating the language that dominates the services and observations, Orthodox (Hebrew/strict), Conservative (Hebrew/English/somewhat strict -- depends on congregation), and Reform (mostly English/pretty laid back).

So in a long-winded way, the Orthodox have always been very conservative socially and sometimes, politically. The other movements are really more dependant on the rabbi and the congregation. Also, I should note that there are a few different types of Orthodox, as well...but that would be an even longer post. :)

[Ian David]

21. The most conservative Jewish groups refuse to interfere in secular affairs

The Hasidic Jews, for example, generally absolutely despise gays. But they also keep their noses out of government affairs. Their homophobia stops at the edges of their own communities.

There are, of course, notable exceptions.

[merwin]

3. I read that at first as 'Ban on gay rabbits may be lifted'...

That blew my mind.

[NorthernSpy]

4. me too!

Poor tired eyes...


:silly:

[Jack_DeLeon]

5. Thirded...

I was wtf there was a ban on gay rabbits? Whats all this about.

[kerstin]

6. Make that four. I read it as gay rabbits as well.

And boy was I steamed there for a minute!

[truthisfreedom]

9. make it 5.

[CabalPowered]

18. and 6 here. * on edit.. correct count is 10

LOL!

[fob]

36. add me to that list - I wasn't sure what to think about that

nt

[laylah]

8. ..

:rofl: That is exactly what I saw...:rofl: Great minds and all of that.

Jenn

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

12. I saw that too

so, how can you tell if a rabbit is gay? :shrug:

[gorbal]

32. Gee and I thought I might make an original joke about gay rabbits

I was thinking PBS was finally showing that "Buster Bunny" episode shot in Vermont.

Maple Syrup anyone?

[Parche]

33. very bunny

"Whats up doc?"

[LostinVA]

13. I read it as "gay rabies" -- I was like, wtf???

[Dem2theMax]

14. Number eight here. LOL. Well, it's only 4am. I guess I can blame

it on a lack of sleep. :crazy:


GAY RABBITS??? :)

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

17. #9

:rofl:

[LeftyMom]

19. #10 here

:hi:

[pink-o]

27. Oh, all you silly gentiles!

I read it right the first time, but that's for obvious reasons. If you don't see the word all the time it would be easy to confuse it.

What amazed me was that it's the Conservative, not the Reform Jews. I used to be Reform, but now that I'm an agnostic who's over authority figures and the "sacredness of human life", I don't go to Spiritual Houses anymore, nor take as law a bunch of words written by men who were just trying to control their society.

Now, if the headline had been about lifting bans of gay PRIESTS, that would be a miracle from God. I would have turned in my non-believer card and strapped on my ice skates for that big new rink in Hell.

[MissB]

30. Me too.

:rofl: I was trying to figure out how they'd know which ones were gay...

[Dem2theMax]

38. That's easy. They have LOTS of fun.

But they don't multiply! ;)

[calimary]

34. That's what I saw at first, too. Gay rabbits? God help the Easter Bunny.

LOL

[daleo]

37. Read it that way too. n/t

[HeeBGBz]

39. I did too.

I need coffee...

[heliarc]

10. Great,

Wonder if they'll allow Palestinians to be people <sarcasm> Or allow residents of Israel to be citizens without a religious requirement.

Good to hear though. Everyone is getting in on the religion thing. That'll be good for crusade futures. <sarcasm>

Wow, I'm cynical when its late and countries just preemptively start attacking each other.

[sugapablo]

11. WTF?

If that wasn't the biggest asshole post to come on here in ages?

Israel bashing never stops, even when the article in question had NOTHING to do with Israel.

The Conservative Jewish movement has NOTHING to do with Israel, Palestinians, politics, or even "right leaning" anything. In fact, Conservative Jews are quite "left leaning" in the world of Judiasm.

Think of Orthodox as "Republicans", Conservative as "Democrats", Reform as "Green Party", Reconstructionist as "Libertarians", and Chassidic as "Constitution Party".

[heliarc]

23. Sorry,

Admittedly having a rough night, and you are absolutely right. The Conservative movement has nothing to do with Israel. I'm not making a comment about "Conservativism" as much as I am about the bigotry of Religions in general. I could have included the Islamic states in my argument or any of the "democratic christian" regimes of the past in Latin America. And none of them would have had to include the Conservative movement because its not a state and can't be compared to one. Sorry to have offended, but I'm not one to look on many religious groups very kindly.

[sugapablo]

25. Ok...

In the spirit of niceness, I accept that explanation as I'm not big on religions mucking with the world myself. I just was taken aback initially by the comment as being a one-sided attack.

Allgood though. Drinks all around.

[heliarc]

31. Thanks

Like I said, the original statement was harsh given the fact that I certainly am glad that Gay (and I hope Lesbian) Rabbis will be accepted into the Conservative Jewish fold. I think my frustration is that somehow decent people on the fringes of society somehow have to become "accepted" by what frankly, I see as retrograde Medieval institutions. It is shameful I think that our secular institutions aren't quite as progressive as that (Because they've been hijacked by the Christian Right). Rabbis can get married... wonder if the Gay and Lesbian Rabbis can do that too... I certainly hope so.

[AlienGirl]

40. Among Reform congregations, of course gay and lesbian rabbis can be

In Reform Judaism, there are already gay and lesbian rabbis, and their marriages to same-sex partners are recognized as valid as opposite-sex marriages. The Conservative movement is about to go the same route officially (some congregations already do recognize same-sex marriage in Conservative Judaism too, but until this there hasn't been a mandate that they must).

By the way, American Jews are not oppressing Palestinians. American Jews do not control Israel or America or the media or the banks. Israel does not control American Jews. American Jews don't get to vote in Israeli elections unless they move to Israel. Non-Jews can become Israeli citizens by living in Israel for three years out of five and intending to live there permanently.

Tucker

[heliarc]

41. Good to hear

that Reform Judaism allows Same -sex marriages for their rabbis... , and of course American Jews don't control Israel. I never mentioned such nonsense about banks... Let me just say that the three year policy should be a mandate for all people wanting to live in Israel and there shouldn't be religious discrimination at all IMHO. It isn't tolerated here (by intelligent citizens) and I'm not sure why it would be tolerated anywhere else, especially when many of the country's population are subjugated because of their ethnic makeup. I am very familiar with the Law of Return and its stipulations for Gentiles, and have Jewish family members with whom I have celebrated many a Bar/Bat Mitzvah. That doesn't mean I can't have a big problem with the fact that Israel has a "requirement" that is different for non-jews. They control a land that is Holy to many other religious and denominations worldwide. Why should a requirement like that be condoned? There is also a movement in Israel that would like Jews worldwide to vote in elections, so the prospect of a Jewish domination of the lands many other religions call holy still resonates for me as a complete and utter monopoly of force.

I already apologized for my conflation of this issue with the absolutely unrelated issue of the Conservative Jewish practice at the heart of the original posting. Sorry if my harsh comments were provided without commentary, but there it is. The irony of it all is I am in fervent support of "allowing" gays to become Rabbis... however sarcastic I was about how religious institutions hand down mandates and profess reasonable care in the determination of who can be a part of their clubs... It should be noted that the Law of return defines racial and ethnic reasonings that amount to a 1/4 rule for the determination of who is a Jew! This is a prospect that I find troubling at best, and Racist at worst. If others aren't troubled by it well. To each their own. Thanks for the input. I always appreciate a good argument, and am glad to have the company of so many thinking men and women here at DU.

[AlienGirl]

43. Do you know the reason for the Law of Return?

The point of that law isn't to make it easier to import more Jews to oppress Palestinians; it's so Jews have a safe place to go at a moment's notice when the country they've been living in suddenly decides to oppress them. Don't you think that's a good idea; I mean, given the history, not only with Germany, but Russia and Spain and all the way back?

Tucker

P.S. Are your relatives Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, or Reconstrucionist? :-)

[heliarc]

44. I don't think its a good idea...

To deny people the right to move freely in this world wherever they want to go. Nationalism (back to Bismark) is a way of defining the makeup of a citizenry and the inherent oppression of that is obvious to those of us who are refugees. Nationalism is in many ways what created institutionalized homophobia, and racism, and is problematic in almost all of its definitions of "worthy" candidates for the citizenry.

Of course my very idealistic hope that nation states would cease to exist is certainly not something that can be mandated by any real body politic in the world at the current point in history, but the progression of civil rights, communications and economic capitalist force have moved mountains (so to speak) in the creation of the European Union, The United Nations, and very notably a social movement almost world wide that respects the congress of information which will chronicle oppression and point out the causal bigotries of nation states which prescribe the identity of the people geographically con-scribed. Tyson foods wants cheap labor. UN studies says that our economy can't grow fast enough as our workforce wanes in the face of slowed birthrates. The same studies say that immigrants have higher birthrates and work for less. Why not make these people citizens, or destroy the bureaucratic institution of geographic segregation altogether? Capitalism seems to demand it... but IMHO the only thing stopping us from making citizens of the Mexicans who work here and at least pay sales taxes day in and day out is the rabid racism of an American public so bent on their ethnic definition of "American" that they have feared our leaders and institutional guidelines to a point that the only solution amounts to something vaguely resembling slavery.

IMHO, the Law of Return may certainly be seen as creating a safe haven for oppressed Jews worldwide, but in creating the State of Israel --through rather bloody means I might add-- the Zionists positioned themselves in direct opposition to the inhabitants of the territories who through whatever progression of eons of history had lived there previously. I think that the Law of Return is not necessarily an instrument of continued oppression of the Palestinian people, but I think that the cynical and oppressed could certainly interpret it that way if their house was bulldozed, or their policing authority was bombed. And I believe they would be justified in their cynicism. And frankly, given the urban planning movements in Israel, I am inclined to believe that there are strategic land development strategies that are meant to force Palestinians from the lands that they were granted by treaties of the past. Confronted with these sorts of injustices and apparent or real infractions, plus a law that made instant citizens of a certain religious sect or another wouldn't you see it more cynically than you now do? And a movement to allow Jews around the world to vote in Israeli elections? One doesn't need to be cynical at all to understand that as a way of solidifying the Jewish national interests over the inhabitants who happen not to share the same belief systems and religious practices.

By the same token. Why not allow all Jews Asylum, but enforce the same 3 year process for citizenship... or would you rather they vote before anyone else... because of their religion? Still seems unfair to me. Also, I'm from a family of refugees... Why not allow Israeli citizenship to any that are oppressed as a sign of goodwill towards all humankind? Are only Jews hated and oppressed in this world? Certainly they were and continue to be oppressed worldwide... has it not enforced a solidarity in social policy? How sad to see the Law of Return reduced to tables for the determination of ethnic makeup of immigrating Jews. "Was your mother a Jew?" "Are you 1/4 Jewish?" the Law of Return asks these questions of those who enter the country. It seems ironic, that Israel would ask questions like this after how Jews were subjected to the same questioning in Germany.

I believe my Uncle married into a Reform family. I could be mistaken. I'll have to ask the next time I see them! :-)

[bluestateguy]

15. This has nothing to do with Israel

Israel does not run the Jewish religion and the Jewish religion does not run Israel.

[David__77]

16. I appreciate the progressive outlook of much of U.S. Judaism.

It is unfortunate that in Israel, the influence of the orthodox trend is so strong. I recall that they were going to reform some of the laws to give equal recognition to reform and conservative rabbis for certain legal purposes, but I don't think that happened.

[VegasWolf]

20. "Gay Rabbits????" nt

[LeftyMom]

22. yep

Scandalous, aren't they! :wow:

[kerstin]

24. Hey I'd be happy too with all the action they're famous for getting!

:P

[CatWoman]

26. am I the only one who misread this headline as

"ban on gay RABBITS may be lifted"?

:)

[Love Bug]

28. Me too! It was an Emily Litella moment!

"What's all this talk about gay rabbits! Oh --- never mind!"

[CatWoman]

29. rofl!!!

:rofl:

[bhikkhu]

35. me too...gay rabbits now welcome in the warren!