Coroner: Ohio Man's Death Is a Homicide (Cincinnati)

[Terran]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20031203/ap_on_re_us/died_in_custody

CINCINNATI - The coroner said Wednesday that a struggle with police was the primary cause in the death of a 350-pound black man whose scuffle with officers outside a fast-food restaurant has prompted outcry among black activists in Cincinnati.

Hamilton County Coroner Carl Parrott said Nathaniel Jones, 41, suffered from an enlarged heart, obesity and had intoxicating levels of cocaine, PCP and methanol in his blood.

Parrott said the death will be ruled a homicide, but added that such a ruling "should not be interpreted as implying inappropriate behavior or the use of excessive force by police."

(more)

[Catherine Vincent]

1. I hope he is at peace now.

Because all hell will break loose, I believe, in Cincy.

[VolcanoJen]

7. Things are actually eerily quiet in Cincinnati.

There's a very important community meeting tonight at 6:00, held by religious and civic leaders. Hopefully they'll call for calm; hopefully the mayor won't issue another silly curfew; hopefully in the end, justice will be served.

But I doubt it. :-(

[classics]

2. The media should quit making excuses for the police.

The tape clearly shows excessive force.

Next they will be telling us kicking old ladies down a flight of stairs is just 'policy'. She was frail you know!

[knowledgeispower]

129. I nearly fell out of my chair

when I read in the article that just because the death was ruled a HOMICIDE doesn't mean that excessive force was used. Excuse me? SOMEBODY killed him, and it was obviously the police. How is that not excessive force???!!!

[Wink]

3. The guy was fighting the cops

I can't say I've seen the whole video but from what I saw he was the one swinging at cops. Maybe if I see the whole thing I'll change my mind but so far....looks like he was instigator.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

6. You didn't see the beginning of the tape, and you also didn't see...

...the beating they gave the guy for another 96 seconds past what most of the media has shown to date.

Are you really stating that he deserved to be beaten to death because he knew he was going to be beaten anyway and tried to resist?

[BlackFrancis]

9. so you can beat him to death?

[newyorican]

4. This doesn't look good...

no good will come from this.

My big problem is with the officers standing around for 3 minutes after one of them says, "there's a pulse, but he's not breathing...". CPR training is in the job description. Evidently they were too disgusted to touch him with anything, save the end of their steel batons. That crucial 3 minutes is pretty clear evidence of criminally negligent homocide.

[alarcojon]

8. Excellent point!

Further, what about the 97 seconds at the beginning of the tape? They would tell us who started the fight. According to the cops, the camera turned off when the car lights were turned off, and was reactivated when the confrontation escalated. Do people here find this explanation believable?

I'm not presuming that the cops started it; we just don't know...

According to todays New York Times, 15 people died in Cincinatti police custody between 1995 and 2001 (the year three days of protest and demonstration broke out). Gues what? All 15 were black men.

[TNOE]

24. Don't know - maybe this wasn't shown on National News

but locally they released video from the restaurant I suppose - showing him before hand - he was dancing, marching like a soldier, acting really crazy - they said this was before the cop's tape recorder started running (because the lights were off).

I don't know the right or wrong of it - but it seems that Cincinnati has a huge problem that needs to be solved somehow. On the one hand - you have a lot of dead black men, on the other hand we have paid out over $3.5 million recently to their families - Cincinnati is suffering terribly economically - downtown for sure and I just don't see any end in sight. People are threatening boycotts of downtown businesses during the Christmas holiday - not sure how much of an impact that will have - but certainly some.

Jen is right - Cincinnati is eerily quiet and those that live here have decided to stay in this weekend.

[PennyLane]

105. Video off when vehicle off

The video was off supposedly because the call was a long one and the
it sucks the the juice out of the battery. Then when he struck out at
them, they turned it on from a remote on their belt. At least that's
the story the police are giving.

[knowledgeispower]

130. I call "bullshit" on that

You get a call about a very large black man (hey, it obviously matters from the cops' perspective) and when you respond to the call you DON'T leave the camera running? I am sure they knew full well going in that force would very likely have to be used, so the smart thing to do would be to leave the camera on so you could justify it. Unless you knew before hand that you were going to apply excessive force that could not be justified...

And as far as sucking the juice from the battery, cop cars have some kind of super-battery for this very reason.

[flamingyouth]

5. Sick and unforgivable

This is a complete tragedy, plain and simple. That poor man and his family....

[bmbmd]

10. eighty-one per cent of respondents

in this poll
http://www.local6.com/news/2679267/detail.html
do not favor disciplinary action against the officers involved.
Neither do I.

[BlackFrancis]

12. 81% need to get blackfaced and let loose in Cincinatti

That should cut that number down considerably if they survive their beat down by the police.

[sam7]

122. why don't you try

to arrest a 400 lb lunatic spaced on angel dust, crack and methanol?

[Dork]

32. 100% of respondents

participate in unscientific idiot polls on local news channel websites.

[knowledgeispower]

131. Care to explain why?

It just seems to me that it would be pretty hard to beat a 350 pound man to death without using excessive force. My guess is these cops were a bunch of twisted fuckers that get their jollies from beating on minorities. I live in Minneapolis and the same damn thing happens here all the time.

[dontomas]

185. Ummm...

One of the police officers who responded to that call was black...

[mzmolly]

11. Tragic event...

One problem appears to be with the 'procedure' that the Police are told to follow in these cases. They carry metal clubs to beat people into 'compliance' from what I gathered watching the news.

The guy obviously has some responsibility himself unfortunatly. He was drunk, coked up and on angel dust *theres bound to be some issues*.

The police should have alternative methods of dealing with "perps" that don't involved beating them with metal clubs. What about stun guns or ??? Tranqualizers... I dunno?

It's no wonder more people don't die.

Additionally the media loves to hype racial tension, and they'll be able to milk this for a good 6 months. The first clip I saw I thought the cops should hang. Then I saw clips on other stations that involved audio and obvious aggression on the part of the 'victim.' The police told him over and over 'get back' and 'put your hands behind your back'. Being he was so large, he may not have been physically able, and being he was so 'out of it' he may not have been aware of what was happening.

The biggest tragedy is that we don't learn from this shit as it happens all to often. A man is dead, what can the police do differently next time so it doesn't happen again!?

There was a black police officer involved as well, but I'm not sure if that will help ease possible racial tensions?

Sad sad sad... Too many unanswered questions for me to make up my mind on this one yet. At this point, I feel the system needs a-changin.

[diamond14]

36. just MACE or pepper spray the guy....cops do it all the time to

legal protestors..it stops you in your tracks real quick....

there is no reason to BEAT A MAN TO DEATH, who has no weapons and is so big that he couldn't even move quickly and likely has trouble with balancing all that weight....he might have just fallen down if the police chased him around a little....

just remember, these 'homocide' coppers may be out patrolling in YOUR neighborhood and BEAT YOU TO DEATH next time you are out for a cheap hamburger (any strange action should be a GOOD reason to BEAT YOU TO DEATH...and what's strange is determined ONLY by the cops who will BEAT YOU TO DEATH)...and in case you don't know, cops are real good at planting drugs, guns, knives, whatever on the people that they BEAT TO DEATH....and coroners are complicite....adding a few drugs during autopsies, and as whistleblown by FBI Chemist Whitehouse, they have NO qualms about falsifying laboratory results if necessary....

where is the OUTRAGE?????

[VolcanoJen]

50. It appears to me as though mace/pepper spray *was* used.

It's unclear, but if you watch the video, at about 6:01:18 (clock in the video itself), an officer whose car has just pulled up enters the frame, from the right. He reaches into his pocket, takes out a small canister, looks at it, shakes it, walks to the left side of the frame, and seems to spray it into Nathanial Jones' face.

http://www.wcpo.com/news/2003/local/12/01/whitecastle.html

The "raw video" (sans the most crucial part of the tape, which would be the part where police first confront Jones) can be found at the link above.

ON EDIT:

To me, the most shocking part of this entire video is the way the policemen stand around the victim's body, looking down at it, commenting at various times "I don't think he's breathing" and "He's not moving, that's for sure," while waiting for the paramedics to come back (they show up at about 6:05:00 on the tape, finally making their way to Jones at 6:05:51). No CPR, no further medical assessment, nothing. Just "I don't think he's breathing." It's this complete lack of action to save the life of a man in their custody that is most incriminating of the police, in my opinion.

[mzmolly]

67. Mace is not effective if your highly drugged/drunk

however, as I said I have mixed feelings. They guy died of heart failure and was clearly uncooperative. Fact is, cops carry metal pipes and are instructed to use them on occasion. I was outraged when I first saw the video and heard of what happened. But as I watched more tape and heard more about the case, I became more disillusioned with the 'system' then the cops on duty.

I do agree that the biggest problem is that they did not administer CPR when the guy stopped breathing. I can only surmise perhaps they were in shock?

I am outraged about many things. I was outraged at the Rodney King beating because he was clearly cooperating. But this guy kept 'fighting' and his body couldn't take the drugs, weight, and battle that ensued. I think his death was a combination of things. If he were cooperating and being beaten as has happened in the past, I'd be full of outrage.

But, I can't fully blame the cops in this one, sorry. I am still holding my judgement until I get more information.

No matter how you slice it, his death is tragic, and the cops should have different methods of dealing people under these circumstances. Apparently (according to those in the know) the police followed what's known as *pain compliance procedure,* in other words, as unfortunate as it is, they followed the rules. Which is why I said the entire system needs to be re-examined.

PS the rules allow beating people with metal pipes, there in lies a big problem KWIM? Like I said to my dh, why can't they carry tranqualizer guns or ? I imagine that there would have to be an accounting for how much to use etc... and I am certain there are possible side effects, but it sure seems better then what's going on these days.

I recall a 100 pound woman *who was psychzophrenic* being shot by the police in my state about a year ago. She was white by the way, and it didn't make national headlines, but it was tragic none the less, and it happens fairly often to the mentally ill.

As I say, I think the system needs to be changed.

[DoNotRefill]

100. What is it with the metal pipe thing?

Does NOBODY here have ANY familiarity with police weapons?!? Older police batons are made of wood. New police batons are almost all made of plastic/polymer. They don't even have a metal core. How do I know this? I once left mine (a Monodoc) in a hot car during the summertime, and the heat bent it. I caught hell for it until I could replace it. :)

[mzmolly]

125. Oh, They look metal... Thanks for the info...

:)

[DoNotRefill]

152. Here's the thing:

Polymer is light, and has much more spring in it than steel or aluminum. As such, the club will "give" or flex more when used. This, coupled with the reduced mass, means reduced injuries for the people hit.

[newyorican]

156. Every report...

in print and TV has stated "steel batons". Unforunately many *do* know, only too well, what police weapons are made of. In this case, "steel batons" has been in every report. I'm sure one of the batons used will be put on display to resolve the issue.

[Myra]

75. Perfectly said amen1234, they could subdue someone without killing them.

It's not like he had a gun, did he?
Did they even try a stun gun or anything you suggested
before beating the life out of him?

And from what I saw on the tape (for the first time today)
they beat him long long after he was down and out.
Just clear rage and revenge, aka, homocide.

It's so godamn sickening.
I saw his family at a press conference; they were
unbelievably classy considering their relative had
just been murdered by Ohio's finest.

If anyone wonders why so many African Americans
mistrust the police, watch this video.

[DoNotRefill]

99. Mace and pepper spray....

are notoriously counterindicated in cases of PCP abuse. All it does is tend to piss them off.

The cops couldn't chase him around, he was coming after them. "Run away and hope the person chasing you falls down" doesn't sound like a really good police tactic.

Oh, and that's the good part about carrying a gun (like I do)...you might get shot, but it decreases your odds of being stomped or clubbed to death.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[DoNotRefill]

98. Ummm....

Most batons are polymer or wood, not metal. The only metal batons I've seen are the collapsable ASPs, which isn't what was used. The only reason they use metal in the ASPs is because of strength, since it's collapsable, polymer will not cut it.

[BraveDave]

13. Before you call the hangman on the police...

I suggest you folks do some research on the effects of PCP. If anyone gets charged with homicide it should be whoever supplied him with a potentially fatal cocktail of narcotics.

I HAVE seen ALL of the video as well as the AUDIO of the event and the police CLEARLY did everything they could to peacefully, and calmly assist the guy before he went nuts on them. Picture Mike Tyson, add about 70 lbs, as the Incredible Hulk. That is exactly how someone on a PCP/Cocaine cocktail would be. UNCONTROLLABLE! I don't know about all of you, but if Tyson punched me in the head, bare fisted as hard as he could, it's doubtful I would survive. I think the police realized the gravity of the situation as soon as the guy punched the first officer and he flew aside like a rag doll. Bare hands can and in this case SHOULD be considered a deadly weapon. Notice that the police did not shoot him but struck him in the legs and lower back in order to get him down to handcuff him.

Had it been me, I'd have dropped him like yesterday’s newspaper. One shot, one kill.

Let's see. 41 years old, close to 400 lbs, heart disease, on PCP/Cocaine, and (methanol..WTF!?).
Jebus Tapdancing Cristo!! Methanol is a FRICKING SOLVENT!!!!
Yup, musta been the cops fault.(sarcasm)

[BlackFrancis]

14. how did you see all the video?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

17. Yeah...I guess the reports of him screaming for his mother while he...

...was being beaten are excellent symptoms of the drug cocktail you described. I guess he shouldn't have thrown himself repeatedly at the police officers' clubs.

In fact, the first report I heard indicated that he had TRACE amounts of illegal substances in his blood stream. The article that started this thread indicated that he had "intoxicating" amounts of the drugs in his system. Your version states that he had "a potentially fatal cocktail of narcotics". Hmmm. I wonder what the true story really is.

Somehow, with their past history of killing black folks over the past few years, I find it a little difficult to believe anything coming from the Cincinnati police, the local media, the coroner's office, and/or the mayor's office.

JMHO.

[westman]

44. Not trace amounts,

but intoxicating levels of at least three substances, according to the coroner. It's his own fault.

[knowledgeispower]

133. So because he was high he deserved to be beat to death?

Sounds like freeper reasoning to me.

[dontomas]

182. Please...

He did not deserve to die because he was high. He died as a result of being high. This whole issue is tragic but I can't help but think that this was just a accident - nay, a coincidence. The enlarged heart, the drugs, police tactics all lead to this man's death, If you were to remove one piece of the triangle...chances are that the guy would still be alive.

[PennyLane]

108. Not What I Heard

I saw the tapes and he didn't say much except "no" when they repeatedly told him to put his hands behind his back. It did appear
to me that after the arrival of the other 4 officers, they didn't
need to keep hitting him.

[el_gato]

22. before you bow down and lick the cops boots I suggest you wake up

[cknoch]

128. LOL

It must be nice to live & react to life based on simplistic quotes....

[VolcanoJen]

27. No, you haven't seen "all" of the videotape.

Nobody, except for possibly Chief Streicher and his underlings, have seen "all" of the videotape. And comparing Nathaniel Lewis to Mike Tyson is absolutely ludicrous.

Lewis was guilty of little more than being high when confronted by police. There was any number of ways they could have handled the situation better and more professionally. They clearly overreacted when Lewis, obviously under the influence, lunged at them. They could have at least applied CPR when it was clear that Lewis was losing his life.

As someone who lives in this city, I've learned to take the "official version" of events with a grain of salt.

[happyslug]

29. I did deal with a person on PCP

When I was in College in the late 1970s I had a Job as a Security Guard at a Pittsburgh Suburban Hospital. A young teenager came in with what we believe was PCP overdose. While In the ER, he started to fight everyone, we had two Stowe Twp Police Officers, Two McKees Rocks Police Officers, Police Officers, two Security Guards, Two Nurses and a Doctor trying to hold this kid down. It WAS difficult but we did it (With the exception of the Nurses no one under 5'10" and 160 pounds).

The biggest thing I remember of that incident was the McKees Rocks Officer threatening to pull out his baton and HIT THE KID, because he was "Spiting" at him.

I did not believe at that time (i.e. when we were holding the kid down) that any good would have come from HITTING the kid. He needed to be restrained NOT hit. Hitting him would have done NO GOOD in the situation. None of the other Officers made the same comment AND NO ONE HIT THE KID (The officer in question was the only one who was angry at the kid’s involuntary reactions do to the PCP). While this show such behavior was limited to only a small number of officers, it also shows that they are protected for none of us ever reported what that officer said AND THAT HE DID REACH FOR HIS NIGHTSTICK until he saw that the rest of us did not approval of THAT reaction.

Now I have Not seen the film of the incident in Cincinnati, but from what I have heard and read, they was NO reason for the police officers to hit him with their night sticks. You had EIGHT officers, all you needed to do is tripped him so he falls to the ground, put your knee in his back, and cuff his hands.

Now that sounds easy, but we are talking about EIGHT TRAINED POLICE OFFICERS. ALL MALES. Even if the Victim was a raging lunatic (and there is reports he both was and was not) all you had to do is have one officer confront the victim, while a second officer grab him by the back cuff of his shirt to drag him to the ground (or using his baton around the victim’s neck, being Careful NOT to hit the windpipe and drag him down). At the Same time a Third Officer kicks (or better tackle) the victim’s legs forward. This will knock him on the Ground, with two Officers on each end of him. You than roll the Victim over onto his back. At that point the first officer put his knee into the back of the victim (preventing him from getting up) and all three officers than cuff him.

At that point get off of him but keep him facing into the ground and see if he settles down. If he does NOT than grab him put him on a gurdy and take him to an ER. Please note this assumes one of the Officers called the Paramedics as soon as the problem started. Such a call should be standard procedure in such cases just in case someone gets hurt (either officer or the person being arrested). The above also should be standard procedure. GET THE GUY ON THE GROUND. GET HIM HAND CUFFED. Three Female Officers could have done the ABOVE (With a fourth calling in the Paramedics), and there were EIGHT MALES!!!!

My point here is there is NO reason to hit this person, or at least as many times as stated. Knock him onto the ground YES, hand cuff him Yes, Restrain him Yes, but just to beat him. NO.

[DoNotRefill]

101. Dude, I think you need to see the video.

From what I saw, the vast majority of blows were struck when there were only 2 officers on the scene, not 6 or 8. Once there was a crowd of officers there, I saw no more baton blows landed, just as I saw no more blows after he was cuffed.

They were TRYING to keep him on the ground. While he was down, he almost broke free and took the nightstick of one of the cops. Remember, this guy weighed close to the two cops together. Even if it was mostly fat, there had to be enough muscle to move the guy around. Imagine if you wore all that extra weight around all the time. Your body would produce more muscle just to make you able to move around. That much muscle, coupled with adrenaline, cocaine, and PCP is a very dangerous combination. Subduing even a little guy on PCP isn't easy, even with 4 big burly bouncers (been there, done that).

[Turley]

30. Apparently smoked joints dipped in embalming fluid

They are called "Fry Sticks" and that's where the Methanol levels come from. First time I've heard of the concept but I'm 20 years removed from the streets. Seems like they dip joints or pot-laced swisher sweets in the stuff and let it dry before smoking. When PCP is added they're called "Sweet Fry".

You get them at, what else, a "Fry-House". You can sort of guess what someone's like after smoking Angel Dust and embalming fluid together. Jesus, I thought I'd heard of everything.

[diamond14]

40. sounds like something 'planted' from the coroners office.....

and why did the cornoner FORGET to bring the chemical test data to the BIGGEST national news conference ever...that coroner just couldn't remember (conveniently) the amount that were found, though when pressed, he called it 'trace' and threw out a few numbers, but only 'if you don't hold me to it', because he just forget to bring the data, for one of the BIGGEST news conferences he's ever done....


and the coroner will not give up the body for the family to get another autopsy opinion....not until the coroner is completely done with the falsified data and planted drugs to soak in....takes time to do this right, why let the family check out their son's homocide? what more is hiding here?


it was pretty gross to watch that man BEAT TO DEATH...anyone who didn't realize that this is UNACCEPTABLE belongs over with the 'cheap labor conservatives'....

[Character Assassin]

43. Ah, I see. Does the local M.E. there have a history of planting evidence?

sounds like something 'planted' from the coroners office...

Why does it sound like that?

and why did the cornoner FORGET to bring the chemical test data to the BIGGEST national news conference ever...

Is it standard protocol in Hamiliton County for test results to be brought to press conferences?

that coroner just couldn't remember (conveniently) the amount that were found, though when pressed, he called it 'trace' and threw out a few numbers, but only 'if you don't hold me to it', because he just forget to bring the data, for one of the BIGGEST news conferences he's ever done....

Again: is that established protocol for that county? Do you know how many autopsies he does per day? How many test results and figures he sees? Is the data somehow unavailable, even though it's part of the public record?

and the coroner will not give up the body for the family to get another autopsy opinion....not until the coroner is completely done with the falsified data and planted drugs to soak in....takes time to do this right, why let the family check out their son's homocide? what more is hiding here?

Bullshit. Prove your case about planting evidence and falsifying data.

it was pretty gross to watch that man BEAT TO DEATH...anyone who didn't realize that this is UNACCEPTABLE belongs over with the 'cheap labor conservatives'....

Pretty stupid to ingest PCP and methanol, ignore orders to "stay back," take a swing at an officer and put one's arm around an LEO's neck.

[monobrau]

56. Hate to break it to you

But there is a lot of that shit on the streets, and if you have ever had to try to order a burger while some sherm head is flipping out, you might understand.
There may very well be a point at which the cops should have realized that metal nightsticks were not going to resolve this situation, but I'd like to know how you would deal with a gigantic raging crackhead at 5:30 in the morning.

Bam! He just took a swing at you and is trying to get you in a head lock. Now what are you going to do about it? Sorry, you didn't think quickly enough and now you are pinned and getting punched in the face.
What would you like your partner to do now?

[private_ryan]

60. everything was planted

and the was "dancing" and acting weird enough for cops to be called because of the burgers.

[VolcanoJen]

61. The cops weren't called because Jones was acting "weird."

The paramedics were called by the White Castle employees, at least one of whom was a friend of Nathaniel Jones, when it appeared that he had passed out on or near his car, parked outside the restaurant.

When the medics arrived, they assessed that Jones had mental health issues, and called the police, as well as a special police mental health response team (which was on another call, and could not respond immediately). Jones was described to the police by the medics as a nuisance. Not a drug-crazed maniac, nor a burglar, nor a violent criminal. A nuisance.

[private_ryan]

66. a nuisance that tried to hit the cop

see the car video, see how the confrontation starts.

[Dork]

70. the confrontation starts

in the time preceding that, in the part of the tape that is missing.

[VolcanoJen]

73. It's impossible to see how the confrontation starts...

... because the video camera was turned off at 5:58:30, and not turned on again until 6:00:06. Ten seconds later, at 6:00:16, Jones lunges at one of the police officers.

Nobody is arguing that Jones was right to lunge at the officer. The argument is that the response of the officers was overreaching and excessive. He is taken down by the police at 6:00:28, at 6:00:37, they begin beating him with their nightsticks. At 6:00:48, he almost gets up again, but is again subdued by the two officers. A third officer arrives at 6:01:10, and Jones is beaten again. It is at this time in the video that you can hear the victim cry "Mama."

At 6:01:24, a fourth officer sprays mace or pepper spray into the subdued victim's face. He does not attempt to get up again after 6:01:10, yet he is beaten again, and ultimately maced.

It looks like a clear case of excessive use of force from my perspective; what's even more troubling is that after more officers arrive, and when it is clear Jones is no longer breathing, they all just sort-of stand around, commenting "he's not moving," and "I don't think he's breathing." No officer attempted CPR, although they are surely trained and certified in this procedure. Although it was clear to the officers that Jones was losing his life, none of them attempted to help him.

It's very, very important to remember that in the city of Cincinnati, this is no isolated incident. The Cincinnati police unfortunately have a long and sordid history of black men dying while under their custody.

[diamond14]

41. Bull ! the victim was no 'Mike Tyson Incredible Hulk'..what a crock

the victim was a physical weak, tubbed out fat guy who could barely walk or move due to fat....he was NO "Mike Tyson Incredible Hulk"...not muscular at all, just big rolls of fat...

your claims are over the top LIES.....

[westman]

46. He threw hiself at the first cop pretty well.

Also, the WC surveillance video shows him performing a fairly athletic exercise in al fresco choreography.

Don't make this loser a hero. There are better choices out there.

[DoNotRefill]

102. Dude, I'm fat....

and I guaran-fucking-TEE that a cop would be in deep shit in a fight with me.

Being fat doesn't equate with being physically weak. And those "big rolls of fat" serve as insulation, both from cold and from physical blows.

[PennyLane]

106. Don't Forget.........

......he had a couple of drugs on board that would make Tinker Bell
think she was Wonder Woman!

[dontomas]

183. Oh, come on!

He may have not been 350+ lbs of muscle but it's still 350+ lbs of mass moving towards you.

[Cronus Protagonist]

15. I want to know what "crime" he was being arrested for

What was it? What was he doing that the police were required to beat, cuff and arrest him?

FUCK BUSH Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[westman]

47. Watch any news broadcast.

Your question is answered hourly.

[DrWeird]

51. Funny, everytime I see it on the news

the cops are already beating him.

[westman]

64. Guess your channel

isn't showing his lunge at the cop. Oh, BTW, the tape also clearly shows that Jones made racist comments toward the cops before his attack. Irrefutable.

[VolcanoJen]

65. What are the irrefutable racist comments, exactly?

I've watched the tape numerous times, and at one point it sounds as though a muffled Jones calls the cops "white boys."

Did I miss something...? Because I don't think "white boys" is an irrefutably racist thing to say...

[westman]

71. Imagine an alternate-universe Cincinnati.

In this universe, a fat, drugged, aggressive, white guy called several black cops "black boys", in addition to other related comments, as Jones did in this universe. Would that not be racist? It is, in both universes.

Be consistent. Choose your heroes with greater discretion.

[VolcanoJen]

74. Just to clear things up...

... so "white boys" is the irrefutable racist epithet you were referring to? OK...

Jones is no hero to me, nor anyone else in this thread, and he most certainly deserved to be restrained and arrested after lunging toward the police officer. This is an issue of excessive use of force, by a police force that has a long history of abusing its power in this city, and negligence on behalf of the officers after it was clear Jones was losing his life.

[westman]

78. We have come too far to start backsliding.

Of course it's racist.

We're on a slippery slope. One can't deny the racism just because its existence detracts from one's position on the Jones issue. Racism is racism. It is ugly and must be exposed without reservation.

Regarding Jones, all he had to do was cooperate, and he'd be out on bond today eating dozens of White Castle burgers before noon. He's dead, and it's his own fault.

[Dork]

77. in the alternate universe,

were whites enslaved for hundreds of years? Are the Cincinnati cops known for beating up whites? White racism and black racism aren't the same.

[westman]

79. They are exactly the same.

Failure to recognize that minimizes the crime of racism.

[alarcojon]

84. The old racism argument

Dork and westman, you are not going to agree on this until you agree on what the definition of the word "racism" is. If you define it as singling someone out because of the color of their skin, then a black person calling a white male "white boy" and a white person calling a black male "black boy" are indeed equivalent. That is just pure logic and cannot be disputed.

However, if you define racism as, for example, prejudice PLUS POWER, then they are not equivalent. To make matters worse, what we have here are white COPS and a black CIVILIAN. Cops always have power over individuals they come into contact with, power vested in them by the state. They also have weapons.

But even leaving that aside, a black person using a racial slur against a white person does not invoke a history of slavery, lynching, and disenfranchisement (remember Florida 2000?). A white person using a racial slur against a black person does.

I clearly favor the second definition - the first does not address societal reality and institutional causes AT ALL. Remember that, in the present case, we are talking about a city with a significant recent history of black men dying at the hands of cops.

B-)

[westman]

86. This is sad.

I appreciate your effort to mediate. However, I believe that, with all due respect, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Forgive me, but distant history is irrelevent here. Racism is racism.

Democrats will never regain power if this view of racial justice is promulgated by our nominees.

[alarcojon]

89. The Cincinatti police issue is not distant history!

As I mentioned in thread #8 above, todays New York Times reports that 15 people died in Cincinatti police custody between 1995 and 2001, and that all 15 were black men. If you wish to argue that this is not relevant to the Nathaniel Jones incident, then we will just have to agree to disagree on that one.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. This thread is not the place to discuss the many recent cases of discrimination against African Americans, but I believe them to be far, far greater and more serious than incidents of discrimination by blacks against whites. I did mention Florida 2000 in my thread.

I wasn't trying to moderate per se, only pointing out that, if neither of you changes your underlying definitions, you can argue about it back and forth and never get anywhere. And, yes, I made my own position clear.

As far as your opinion about the Democrats never regaining power, they are all on the record as supporting affirmative action, so I guess you'll just have to vote for Bush!

B-)

[westman]

96. You viewpoint exacerbates the problem.

Society must be objective in all matters, including dealing with racism. We can't assume that a racial comment hurts in one direction, but not in the other.

Without objectivity, we have totalitarianism.

I know you don't want that.

Neither do I, nor do I want Bush.

[alarcojon]

134. My last thoughts on this thread

In case I didn't make myself clear, of course racial comments hurt in both directions, and I condemn them in both directions. I still honestly believe that a white person slurring a black person hurts the black person more than a slur in the other direction, because of factors which originate, yes, with slavery, and which I strongly believe continue to this day.

I tried to bring things beyond mere racial slurs into the discussion, for the simple reason that the issue goes far beyond their use. By far the worst impact of racism is institutional. Job discrimination, racial profiling, police brutality, and the disenfranchisement of black voters are only a few examples of this, and you can easily find documentation that they continue to this day.

Notice that I never insinuated that YOU were a racist.

Lastly, I'm glad you don't want totalitarianism and/or Bush. As you know, neither do I. We have some common ground and some differences, and I am just going to leave it at that.

Peace

B-)

[Dork]

115. what is distant history about this?

The Cincinnati Police are famous today, in 2003, for being brutal and racist. Disenfranchisement in 2000 wasn't that long ago. The racism that had slavery as its defining moment didn't disappear.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dork]

120. wow, you really got my number.

By the way they agree with your definition of "racist" more at www.freerepublic.com. That is where white people can commiserate about how blacks ruined everything.

[Terran]

91. Give me a f*cking break

It's very interesting, the extent to which you seem to be reaching to demonize this fellow. There is no way in hell that a Black man referring to white cops as "white boys" can be considered racist, not in THIS world we actually live in. And what, pray tell, does that have to with his being beaten to death by said cops, eh? Does his use of that phrase lend reason to the killing?

[westman]

95. Of course it can.

And it is. If we fail to address racism objectively, then we are guilty of racism.

I am trying to "demonize this fellow"? Oh, come on! I'll reiterate: he attacked the cops, he wouldn't follow directions, he tried to grab their weapons, he was FAT, he was STONED, he had a BAD HEART. I don't have to demonize him. He's done a good job of self-demonization.

[DoNotRefill]

103. Well, the big one...

is assault on a police officer....

[monkeyboy]

16. What crap

This 400 lb PCP psycho should have complied. Period.

[classics]

18. And he deserved to die for 'non compliance'?

When they said he was not breathing, he also deserved to not receive CPR right? Just stand and watch fatty die is 'procedure' I guess.

Too gross to try and help.

[private_ryan]

28. the cpr

might be something to investigate but as far as the rest I don't blame the cops at all.

[Character Assassin]

49. This is the only puzzling bit: there were paramedics there

They were, after all, the ones who called the police when confronted by Jones.

Did they leave? Stand around? Etc.....

[salin]

76. on the tape

their vehicle leaves... while he is still being... addressed. Shortly after the vehicle leaves (and the emergency med folks? one guesses) - they notice that the guy no longer is breathing, but does have a pulse. The emergency med folks don't immediately appear - so my guess is that they presumed (during the confrontation) that the guy was okay and left. Why?

[westman]

48. No,

he died because he was a fat, intoxicated, cardiologically-impaired nitwit who chose to attack the cops. His own body did him in. Just as it would have had he run 1/4 mile on a track.

[Terran]

92. My, what a progressive response that was...

I'm afraid the coroner contradicts your well-informed assessment of the situation.

[westman]

97. Again, no.

The coroner's report supports it. Of course the altercation poured fuel on the fire. However, the report makes it clear that his condition did him in. And, logically, there would have been no reason for his condition to be an issue if he hadn't attacked the cops.

Yet another well-informed assessment for you.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

19. "What crap"?? Interesting response for somone who wasn't there...

...maybe you should give us all of the details since you seem to know the story so well.

[Nlighten1]

20. Summary execution

isn't that what groups like the Taliban do?

[Rose Siding]

21. "homocide" isn't necessarily murder as we think of it

Well- it's killed by man (I think) but on the death cert for an executed prisoner, for instance, "homocide" is the cause of death finding.

[northernsoul]

23. I think that it means "but for" the beating

he'd still be alive.

Now granted, his other extracircular activities weren't doing him any favors in the health department. I haven't seen the tape, so I'm not going to formulate an opinion on what the cops should or shouldn't have done.

[private_ryan]

26. "but for" the resisting"

he'd still be alive. He swung first, then they tried to take him down.

[knowledgeispower]

138. That is twisted

You make it sound like its okay for the cops to beat a man to death because he swung at them first. Well, its not. Cops are supposed to be better than that. They are trained to use a variety of tactics to end conflicts as peacefully as possible, and obviously NONE of these techniques were used.

I think you've got a pretty warped sense of what "to serve and protect" means.

[DoNotRefill]

144. Once he attacked the cop....

what were they SUPPOSED to do? Back off and hope he'd fall asleep? Simply run away??? The fact that the guy died is tragic. But it doesn't make what the police did criminal. If they'd backed off and shot him 41 times, you'd have a much better case. If they'd proceeded to smack him in the head with nightsticks repeatedly, you'd have a point. If they cuffed him and had him on the ground and then beat him, you'd be dead on. They DIDN'T DO ANY OF THOSE THINGS. They struck his body, and wrestled with him while trying to cuff him. He came close to taking the nightstick from one of the cops. The man CLEARLY posed a threat to the police officers.

Watching the video,it looks to me like they followed proper procedure. They weren't TRYING to kill him, they were trying to subdue him and take him into custody. I offer as evidence of this the fact that they were in position to strike his head with the batons, but went out of their way to avoid a head strike. That's not an act of somebody who is out of control or enraged.

This case is a FAR cry from the Rodney King beating, and your average excessive use of force situation. And these cops were NOT out of control. They used reasonable force to subdue the guy after he attacked the cop. Unfortunately, that contributed to the mans death.

[northernsoul]

146. resisting arrest is not a capital offense

On principle, if everyone who's ever exercised incredibly poor judgment in dealing with law enforcement deserved to die, I'd wager a lot of us wouldn't be here talking today.

As for this particular case, I'm witholding judgment as I'm not even close to knowing all the facts I'd like to know about this.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[private_ryan]

25. call me cruel but he did it to himself

cops were called after someone reported an unduly person. They tried to take him in and he resisted. With all that weight and lack of exercise his heart was probably the size of a basketball. Add cocaine, PCP, methanol and whatever he was on. Cops didn't kill him, him resisting and swinging at them did, he probably would've died even if he tried to shovel snow or change a tire.

By blaming the cops automatically we do no justice to real victims of police brutality...I'm a civilian and I would've killed him too if he came after me like, even he was green.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=homicide&r=67
"hom·i·cide ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hm-sd, hm-)
n.
The killing of one person by another.
A person who kills another person.

Note: Homicide is of three kinds: justifiable, as when the killing is performed in the exercise of a right or performance of a duty; excusable, as when done, although not as duty or right, yet without culpable or criminal intent; and felonious, or involving what the law terms malice; the latter may be either manslaughter or murder. --Bouvier."

[diamond14]

38. cruel...beating a guy to DEATH, who 'danced' in a fast food joint

is wrong....MACE, pepper spray would have taken care of it...with 8 cops, they could have just walked around the big guy until he turn and fell over, because he certainly could not get up....

a guy who couldn't possibly run away, a guy who had trouble moving around at all, or even balancing due to his size...and WAS UN-ARMED....this is a guy who was no threat to anybody....was committing no crime (it is not a crime to 'dance' in a restaurant or lay outside on the lawn)...he did not deserve to be summarily executed by BEATING TO DEATH....



any HONEST cop would stand up quickly and DEMAND that these criminal homocidal coppers be REMOVED right now from the force....if you're covering these homocidal cops under that blue line, then YOU are complicit in a homocide....so we'll see real soon who are the HONEST cops, and hopefully, we'll fire the rest...

[private_ryan]

55. cops were called for one reason or another

he swung at one of them. That second, the dancing stopped. He wasn't beaten to death but keep ignoring the facts. He killed himself via a heart attack by strugling .

[PennyLane]

109. Danced?

He was passed out in there when the police first got to the scene.

[VolcanoJen]

31. Citizens call for recall of Mayor Luken; resignation of Chief Streicher

At today's heated council meeting, concerned citizens called for Chief Streicher to submit his resignation, and have begun to organize a recall petition against Mayor Luken.

Just the latest from the 'Nati... I'll post a link when I find one!

[toopers]

33. No matter what anyone says

If Jones had not been doing anything wrong, he would still be alive today!

[diamond14]

37. yep, it's criminal to dance in a fast-food joint...deserved to be BEAT

TO DEATH.....????

anyone who suggest that a guy without a weapon, too heavy to move fast...deserved to die like that...anyone suggesting that comes straight out of the nazi war criminals....it is sick sick sick to even bring it up.....

[Dork]

34. Any black people

leaping to defend the Cincinnati Police in THIS thread?

[diamond14]

35. the CRIME: passed out on fast-food lawn....beat to death.....

in addition, a security video was shown as the victim 'danced' inside the White Castle Hamburger joint, same place where he was then found lying on the ground outside....and the inside video showed no violence, and not even much moving around much due to his size, the victim was simply moving up and down (dancing??)

welcome to asscroft Amerikkka....where's the outrage???

cops are BIG time THUGS who really enjoy their work, and walk marginally close to that thin line that separates them from the criminals, and often, they cross that line and become criminals themselves....

everybody should wake up to the situation....a human being BEAT TO DEATH for the CRIME of acting weird inside a cheasy White Castle Hamburger joint, and then passing out on the lawn....

if you don't think this can happen to YOU or your loved ones, think again...this goes on frequently in Amerikkka....often anyone acting weird is KILLED by police (mentally challenged, physically disabled, inebriated....here in DC, a person without hearing was KILLED because he couldn't HEAR police commands, so they just mowed him down)....and there is ALWAY a huge cover-up for these cops...huge...drugs could have been planted, the 'trace' drugs easy to inject....the methanol in any autopsy room, and normally is goes through skin just naturally....and the big fight with the family where the police refuse to turn over the body for a real autopsy....it all works just like Lauri Klaus****? down in Representative Joe Scarboro's office....when the autopsy came out with 'fell onto the desk, ruptured her skull and died....no murder here...

when will people wake up....probably not until the cops kill or disappear someone YOU know...someone just going out to catch a cheap burger....someone working hard in a congressional office....on MSNBC, they cut out the part where the coroner said 'homocide'....it just disappeared, and they majorly mentioned the victims drug issues without even noting the level of drugs, or show the coroner saying it was 'trace' amounts, but the coroner forgot to bring the chemical data, and didn't know the amount for certain...isn't that ODD, the guy is doing a MAJOR national news conference, and forget to bring the chemical analyses showing the AMOUNTS...drugs were however planted in the victims car...oops, 'found' in the victims car....

those cops could have just sprayed the victim with MACE or pepper spray, rather than BEATING HIM TO DEATH....

it is wrong to BEAT an unarmed person to death...especially a guy so big that he could hardly move, and could barely be considered a threat to 8 heavily arms THUGS....they could have just stepped aside and the guy might have fallen over and not been able to get up....

these cops are criminals...and you should be scared, very scared, if they are still patrolling in your city....the coroner cut them way too much slack...don't forget the next time you visit a fast food joint, you may get hauled out and BEAT TO DEATH in bush* new Amerikkka......

and it's amazing that ALL honest cops won't police their own and demand that these 'homocide' cops get removed ASAP from their force...this would have totally been shoved out of site (like cops tried to do in Rodney King case), but there is a VIDEO (likely with a Rosemary Wood missing section), that hurt me to look at...as I watched the beating, I kept thinking "what has become of my country"...

[happyslug]

42. NO, NO, NO

Pepper spray and/or mace would probably just have enraged the victim. Mace (and by this term I include Pepper spray) is effective against a person who is acting RATIONALLY, but this man WAS NOT (according to reports).

No, this is a case of the Police NOT wanting to get their uniforms dirty, i.e. FORCE THIS MAN TO THE GROUND. This is confirmed when they did no CPR whenever he was not breathing. When I was in Basic and received MY training on CPR and Mouth to Mouth, we were told we could NEVER say a person was dead, only a doctor can do that. We were to continue CPR or Month to Month until the person started to breath of his own OR after one hour (at that point if no reaction we could "presume" he was dead).

The point here is that the officer SHOULD have acted in a professional manner, i.e. force the victim to the Ground, Cuff him and than when he was NOT breathing give him mouth to mouth. This is part of the concept that you put someone at risk (even if done for legal and/or good reasons) YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE THE PERSON AT RISK LIVES.

The police failed on this point in, what in my opinion, was improper police tactics to subdue the victim AND than failing to give him proper treatment after he cease to breath. In my opinion, they should go to jail (or at least pay a huge settlement to his family).

[diamond14]

53. MACE would blind the man temporarily, and enraged or not, he

would not be able to SEE...and his eyes would BURN...and because of his waddling unbalanced shape...he would likely just fall onto the ground while groping around blind....

there is plenty of room here to let a mace-blinded man flail around as much as he wants...wouldn't hurt anything or anybody....here in DC, then can immobilize anyone with plastic sprays to glob over whole crowds of people...they got plastic wraps that they fling around several people....they got goofy string that immobilized you...they use stun guns, they use mace....

there simply is NO EXCUSE for BEATING an unarmed man to DEATH....this should horrify all Americans, and anyone who tries to justify it is complicit in homicide and the execution of the 'White Castle dancing man"....if you love this stuff you belong in the nazi Germany SS squad....I hope you stay away from MY community....

[DoNotRefill]

104. Mace doesn't blind people....

I've been hit with it many times, and it hurt, but certainly didn't blind me.

[dontomas]

184. A Stun Gun?

That probably would have killed him as well.

[xchrom]

39. there are some truly charming responses

to this post.
what is this ''kill him'' crap -- people resist arrest all the time and don't wind up dead. there's no reason for this -- if you need more cops to get the hand cuffs on him -- get them, for crap's sake.
damn man -- i wonder if there is physical evidence that knuckles are getting closer to the ground in this country?

[private_ryan]

57. ever heard of office type or old people dropping dead after a small run

or exercise? HEART ATTACK!!!!!!!
5.6 and weighed 350-400 lbs, how do you think his cardio was?

how many 400 lbs people "people resist arrest all the time and don't wind up dead"?

[Medium Baby Jesus]

59. Power worship

I agree. I have been following these threads and am stunned at the level of disgust for the victim and love for the cops. As a long time lurker and rare poster, I wonder if I'm in the wrong place.

[PennyLane]

110. Not in the wrong place.........

.......but maybe at the wrong time! ;)

[diamond14]

45. photos of CRIME: dancing in White Castle hamburger joint....

no need to BEAT a man to death for this.....the man is holding a purchased? drink, just doing business at White Castle...likes to eat, and dance while he waits for his hamburger....BEAT HIM TO DEATH for this CRIME ???? !!!!


looks like the White Castle employee doesn't even feel threatened by this dancing....the guy can barely move around, even while 'dancing'....restricted by big rolls of fat...no danger to anyone here....it'd be interesting to hear the 911 call...they likely just wanted him to leave because he's different....but this hardly looks like wild dancing, threatening, or thrashing around...just a little up and down movements in one spot...





BEATING a man to death...no weapons....looks like he's no threat to police throughout all this beating...they could have stopped rather than KILL him....

[VolcanoJen]

52. amen1234, you're absolutely right.

Also, it's important to note that Nathaniel Jones was known to the White Castle employees; he's seen hugging one of the female employees in the restaurant surveillance video.

Jones left the restaurant, went out to his car, started behaving strangely again, and appeared to pass out on or near the hood of his car. At that time, the White Castle employees called 911, and asked for paramedics and an ambulance to come check on Jones' well-being. According to local news reports here in Cincinnati, the paramedics assessed Jones from a distance, decided he had mental health issues, and called the police, reporting Jones to be a "nuisance." Not a criminal, not violent, not dangerous, mind you... a nuisance. A call was also made to a special mental health response team; they were on another call at the time and couldn't immediately respond. It would seem that the paramedics responded appropriately to the situation.

By the way, the female employee who was filmed hugging Jones hyperventilated after witnessing the beating through the restaurant windows, and was taken to the hospital herself. :-(

If only the police could have kept an eye on Jones, while waiting for the special response team to come and assess the situation... he might still be alive. What is unknown, and troubling, is the manner in which Jones was first confronted by police. This is the part of the tape that is mysteriously "missing."

Don't worry, amen1234. There is plenty of outrage in Cincinnati, and this is one issue that isn't going to go away anytime soon. The family has called for a second autopsy, religious and community leaders are horrified that another black man has died in the custody of our police force, and citizens have many, many questions to ask of Mayor Lukens and Chief Streicher.

[diamond14]

54. Cincinnati citizens should DEMAND that these homocidal cops be

removed from duty NOW...I would be scared scared scared to have those THUGS still patrolling my streets....they are a scar on all respectable cops....it seems like honest cops should be STANDING UP now and refusing to let these homicidal cops hide behing that BLUE WALL....police your own...STAND UP and be counted on the side of the law, rather then protect these KILLERS....

here they are...if you see them, run for your life....grab your children and hide...

[Myra]

88. Thank you VolcanoJen. The more I find out the more outraged I am.

So 911 was called because this guy was clearly high,
but not violent at all, so it was more out of concern
for him and maybe for his ability to drive.

Right?

Then ultimately the cops arrive, and the guy behaves
irrationally, which is understandable since that's the
friggen *reason* 911 was called; and he lunges at a cop.

He has no deadly weapons. No gun no knife...
But he was beaten to death anyway.
And clearly beaten long after he was helpless/subdued.

How much do you wanna bet (?) that:
1) The White Castle employees will be afraid, for some
reason, to testify against the cops.
2) The coronor's office manages to lose a 350 pound body
before another autopsy can be performed.
3) The victim's family is intimidated big time by the cops et al.

I guess anyone is free to murder as long as they're either:
1) Rich, or
2) In a police or military uniform

[private_ryan]

58. you forgot the slide when he tried to hit the cop

I'm sure it was not intentional

[diamond14]

63. well please, go ahead and add that slide..I didn't find any such slide

on several areas where these photos came from...show us anything you have...I am certain many would like to see it, as would I.....

but you certainly don't need to chew on those of us who bring out some photos...we are showing the truth....you are just talking with no ACTION to find any slides....

[private_ryan]

68. http://www.local6.com/news/2679267/detail.html

see video here as he tries to hit the "white boy" cops. Way before they tried to restrain him.
http://www.local6.com/news/2679267/detail.html

[diamond14]

80. you hammered me for 'forgetting a slide' , so where's your slide?

show my that slide.....post it right up here just like I did, so we can all look at it carefully.....

or pull back your nasty accusatory remarks PUBLICALLY, so everyone will know that I did not deliberately forget a slide....

[private_ryan]

81. watch the freaking video

it's right in the begining of it, that's why I posted the link.

[Catherine Vincent]

85. One or two hits on a cop doesn't warrant death.

[private_ryan]

87. you still don't get it, do you?

he died because he resisted, his heart couldn't handle the stress eh started. He sentenced himself to death. Cocaine, PCP, methanol, 400 lbs and tried to hit the cops.

[Catherine Vincent]

94. Yes, he resisted. But the one cop that was using the butt of his

beatstick was aiming at a part of that man's body that we can't see. I doubt if it was his gluteus. That is what may have killed him. I can't imagine a cop doing that to someone as hard as he was hitting to anybody no matter how much drugs was in his body.

Look, I not demonizing the cops. I respect most cops, we need them. I would bet those cops probably can't stand to look at that tape for a long period of time.

[diamond14]

90. no answer to 'where is your slide?'...just typical faux-y diversionary

tactic....put up your slide or withdraw your nasty accustions against me...

I did not 'deliberately' forget a slide, as you nastily accused me of...and thereby, implying to all these DUers that I would deliberately misrepresent the story...


if you have no slide to put up, then you should withdraw your nasty accusations against me, and make a proper correction for all these DUers here...

or perhaps you came here from another board over on the reTHUG side...where you fling out total lies, and when corrected, change the subject, and scream WATCH THE VIDEO.....your tactics are very free republic...shouldn't you go home now?

[private_ryan]

93. I didn't put any slides at all.

if I had done so, I would've put them all. Not just the ones that show the cops tryign to restrain him. Why did they try to restrain him? The video explains better than any frame.

[FredScuttle]

137. How about the slides from the missing 96 seconds at the true "beginning"??

You know...the portion of the tape that immediately precedes the scene of Jones lunging at the cop? Guess you don't have those....

[diamond14]

62. Photos of the memorial: ghosts of 1967....the revolution will not

be televised...I was there when my birthcity (Detroit Michigan) EXPLODED due to economic disparity, joblessness, homelessness, discrimination, the WAR in Vietnam killing our young daily, a mostly white mercenary police force living in the suburbs and beating on law-abiding Detroit citizens for fun, education budgets cut to pay for the WAR, police corruption (just in my own precint, more than half the force were convicted of running a heroin operation in just one 8 month period, lots the heroin came back from Vietnam, just like todays HUGE Afganistan heroin crop), political corruption...business scandals....everything going on just like bush* today, only on a much smaller scale...bush* level is so much higher, so much more arrogant, and the outrage is so much bigger, so the revolution will definitely be much much larger....






read the memorial message and learn from the past DO SOMETHING NOW, unless you really want to re-run 1967...I don't...and in Detroit, it all started with an early morning police raid on a Blind Pig (an illegal drinking joint) when the police started beating on poor patrons just having a cheap drink in the hot hot hot hot summer....just like today in Cincinnati, the police were vicious thugs who BEAT wildly until the whole city realized all at once, that they had enough....

[toopers]

136. Amen, Brother, you need to get your facts straight!

This man was not beaten to death. The coroner ruled that the wounds, which were only bruises, resulting from the billy sticks were superficial, and predominately on the legs. This man died because he attacked a cop, and then continually resisted arrest, and in the process over exerted his fat filled circulatory system. As well, this man had more drugs in him than the corner pharmacy, which probably exacerbated this situation on many levels. Again, if he had not done anything wrong he would still be alive. The police were responding as they should.

[newyorican]

157. toopers, Brother??...

The coroner said homicide, put it to rest cause your looking pretty silly....brother.

Main Entry: ho·mi·cide
Pronunciation: 'hä-m&-"sId, 'hO-
Function: noun
Etymology: in sense 1, from Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin homicida, from homo human being + -cida -cide; in sense 2, from Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin homicidium, from homo + -cidium -cide
Date: 14th century
1 : a person who kills another
2 : a killing of one human being by another

Now by either definition 1 or 2, the six officers beating the guy immediately before his death have some worries.

They have a poor starting position because any sentient being can see the final 3 minutes, after one cops states, "there's a pulse, but he's not breathing..." is a clear,open & shut case of criminally negligent homicide. The guilty stood around watching him die instead of starting CPR...for 3 minutes...on film...case closed.

That's just the starting point though.

[toopers]

158. Yo Rican,

You look silly for failing to understand the argument. I read what the coroner stated. I never stated that the coroner did not classify this as a homicide. What I did state was that he did not die because of the wounds from the beating, and the coroner stated that in his report. The coroner said that the wounds from the cops were "superficial". Please pay particular attention to the 4th definition below.

su·per·fi·cial ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spr-fshl)
adj.
1) Of, affecting, or being on or near the surface: a superficial wound.
2) Concerned with or comprehending only what is apparent or obvious; shallow.
3) Apparent rather than actual or substantial: a superficial resemblance.
4) Trivial; insignificant: made only a few superficial changes in the manuscript.

This man died because he over exerted himself while resisting arrest. The ruling of homicide was based upon the fact that the coronary he had could not be determined to be self inflicted, though this point is arguable since Jones was breaking the law and resisting arrest. In the future, Rican, please argue the statements.

[newyorican]

166. What you fail to wrap your brain around...

is someone killed Jones. The only question remaining is who or whom.

[toopers]

169. Again, you are incorrect!

I have already conceded that Jones was killed. The coroner stated that it was a homicide. My argument is that Jones did not die from the beating, but that he died from over exerting himself while attacking the cops and resisting arrest.

[diamond14]

170. troopers claims to be a cop...& calls the victim 'lard butt' (#141, #150)

not even trying to show respect for citizens, and de-humanizing homocide victims....

I hope 'troopers' never 'SERVES' in my neighborhood...I'll bet 'troopers' has other offensive names for all groups of victims....women, Blacks, Hispanics, Italians, Irish, mentally challenged people, physically disabled people, and more....

it must be a real nightmare to have 'troopers' strutting around YOUR neighborhood...

[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dork]

69. Disgusting.

Setting aside the fact that the Cincinnati Police are famous for being racist and brutal, setting aside that all the people who think the Cincy police were just doing their jobs can not possibly have any idea what being a black man in Cincinnati is like (not that I do, I just think I might be a bit more sympathetic), setting aside that there is tape missing in the moments that lead up to him punching one officer in the face, setting all that aside, the talk on this thread is disgusting.

People are talking like he deserved to die because he was fat, because he was on drugs, because he assaulted a cop without a weapon. None of those add up to a justifiable reason to kill anyone. And to the people who say he killed himself by being overweight and intoxicated, I quote the Hamilton County Coroner: "Absent the struggle, Mr. Jones presumably would have gone on his intoxicated way."

[candy331]

82. I wonder how many

peace officers would brutally beat their canine helpers if they failed to obey them? It's a shame when human lives have become less than an animals. When a Peace officer gets to the scene of an unruly animal, even one that has mauled someone he subdues the animal he doesn't beat the crap out of the animal because he is not obedient. Kind of sad when one knows how to handle a dog and not a human. Of course with this country headed in the direction with rights being taken away perhaps all better get prepared for this kind of treatment because it want be limited to people of color, as just demonstated in Miami, Florida.

[Spentastic]

114. No

Sometimes thay just shoot em.

[0007]

117. ...or plant drugs on 'em so the judge will hang 'em high,

these police officers were poorly trained. The amount of drugs in this man's body is not the issue. Killing a human being? Because he's rowdy?

[AlexanderBarca]

83. A few unfair words

I feel as though its rather unfair to say tht people are "talking as if he deserved to die". There are a few who are admittedly doing that, but it seems more or less like they are saying it WASN'T THE FAULT OF THE POLICE.

From watching what we can of the tape, it seems clear that he was being really agressive. He took a swing at an officer (which looks like the first act of violence in the incident), and after that refused to be subdued by officers. The autopsy, forgoing rather idiotic conspiracy theories, shows that the man had a drug cocktail in his body, including PCP which would make him impervious to pain and increase his strength 5 fold.

Should the cops have performed CPR after he is on the ground and they notice he is not breathing...no...cpr is for when a person has no pulse. They should, however, have done rescue breathing (yes, that's a first aid nit pick, but you've got to pick nits at stuff like that). That is what should be the focus of the investigation.

[Catherine Vincent]

72. I feel so bad for Mr. Jones.

I also feel sorry for those cops that participated in the beating. You guys should have handled it differently. I can only imagine the horror of Mr. Jones' family when they viewed his beaten body. I don't think I would be able to take it.

[OLY-M4gery]

107. Truth

I have seen parts of the video(s) and read a lot of the news reports.

The Coroner's Office has said there was bruising on Jones lower body, and NO INJURIES to his internal organs. Jones has an enlarged heart, and an "intoxicating amount" of PCP, cocaine, and methanol in his blood.

For those that don't know too much cocaine will KILL you.
PCP makes people agressive, and impervious to pain.
Methnol is EMBALMING FLUID, it has effect similar to PCP.

Mr Jones wasn't beaten to death, as several of you have WRONGLY claimed. He died from exertion due to the struggle according to the Coroner. Would that struggle have taken place if he hadn't voluntarily taken multiple illegal drugs?

Did Mr Jones "deserve to die" or "deserve what he got"? No he didn't. It's a shame when any person dies. But Mr Jones death is mostly of his own making.

Now ask yourself, and if you dare post a REALISTIC answer to this question. How do you stop a 400 lb, drug enraged, impervious to pain, person who has "drug energy"?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the Officer Down Memorial Page

Deputy Sheriff Richard Anthony Herzog
King County Sheriff's Department, WA
End of Watch: Saturday, June 22, 2002

Biographical Info
Age: 46
Tour of Duty: 7 yr
Badge Number: Not available

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire
Date of Incident: Saturday, June 22, 2002
Weapon Used: Officer's handgun
Suspect Info: Apprehended

Deputy Herzog was shot and killed with his own service weapon after responding to a call at 1700 hours involving a naked man creating a disturbance in the roadway on Coal Creek Parkway. When Deputy Herzog, who was wearing a vest, arrived on scene, he attempted to subdue the man with pepper spray. The spray had no affect on the man, who then attacked Deputy Herzog. Deputy Herzog's service weapon, a .40 caliber Glock, was knocked to the ground and the magazine came out of it.

The suspect picked up the weapon and replaced the magazine. As Deputy Herzog attempted to retreat, the suspect shot him once, knocking him to the ground. The suspect then stood over him and shot him ten more times before fleeing to a nearby apartment. The man was apprehended approximately 45 minutes later. The suspect had been released from jail only 11 days earlier after serving several months for assaulting a police officer.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

IIRC the suspect in this incident was on marijuana and embalming fluid. The Glock didn't simply fall out of his holster, the suspect grabbed the holstered weapon, and pulled so hard that he ripped the holster into pieces.

[OLY-M4gery]

111. And while I am at it

Cincinnati police officers are not trained in first aid, or CPR.

The Cincinnati Fire Dept is responsible for delivery of emergency medical servives.

Yeah Mr Jones was yelling about his Mother. He was also yelling about "red necks" "white boys" and when he throws his roundhouse at an officer he say something similar to that was just like my Momma taught me to. He also is yelling "give it to me" when he is on the ground and the officers have delivered multiple baton strikes.

At one point when one of the officers is swinging his baton, Jones catches the baton in his left hand and he and the officer struggle for control of th baton. Which is occurring when Jones is apparently on top of/pinning down the second officer.

I wonder if those of you so ready to find fault with the police would ignore them using racial type phrases, or words indicating they wanted to fight.

Some of you are letting your own agendas ruin your ability to observe.

[xchrom]

112. in answer to your first post

you get more cops -- you don't stand around beating a man -- what a waste.
so what if he tried to hit the cop and weighed four hundred lbs -- you would be on his side if he weighed 90?
this case had nothing to do with the cop shot by the naked guy -- they don't find out until after he's dead that he was on drugs -- and a serious beating with batons i'm sure contributed something to his death -- or is that just a little obvious?
and the notion that people have an agenda that makes them biased is laughable -- we all have agendas -- that has nothing to do with the fact that it is fairly obvious{too much so?} that excessive forced was used -- and homicide was the ruling from the coroner.

[OLY-M4gery]

113. Good plan.

How do you proprose 4 cops proceed insted of just 2, or 6 or 8.

How EXACTLY would those 4,6, or 8 cops take a drugged out 400 lb'er into custody?

Here's a small thought bubble, Jones died from exertion. If he was "grappled" by 4 cops, he still would have fought, and exerted himself. What would the end result of that exertion be?

The "naked guy" has everything to do with this. A drugged up, naked guy, overpowered a police officer. He so totally overwhelmed that officer that he was able to TEAR the officer's holster appart to get his gun.

That guy, and Jones had the VOLUNTARY drug use, that signifgantly altered their mental state, and thought processes in common.

Take another look at the video, yes the police deliver repeated baton strikes, but the mostly deliver "jabs" with the end of the batons. Throughout that Jones is continuing to resist.

Think about that, really for a second, if you were hit with a baton, would your response be to yell "give it to me" to the cops? I suspect if I was hit ONCE by a baton I would proboably be asking that I not get hit anymore, and put my hands where they were requested to be. But I guess a person that doesn't react to baton strikes isn't a big deal?

Jones started the fight by punching, and trying to put an officer into a headlock. While that officer was moving back quickly. Who was the one who instigated the violent assualt?

[xchrom]

121. spare me your small bubbles of thought

so every citizen the police encounter is to be judged by the naked man incident? i'd like to think you know better than that -- but perhaps that is again expecting too much.
given the number of over weight people in this country -- jones is probably not the first overweight guy to resist arrest. i wonder how many of those incidents resulted in being beaten repeatedly with batons?
i've seen the tape enough to come to the conclusion that beating him was uncalled for -- i saw the swing he took at the cop. by the nature of the job -- being ready for situations like that is called for. you don't shoot the person and you don't beat the person -- you do get the number of personel needed to get the job done.
all in all -- it was not a major scuffle from what i saw.
the beating with the batons looked vicious compared to the rest.
but the police in this country have a nasty habit of making sure men of african decent die while they are being taken into custody.

[OLY-M4gery]

126. A mind is like a book

It must be open in order to be of any use.

Again what stategy would 4, 6, or 8 officer be able to employ that wouldn't cause Jones to EXERT himself? Jones wasn't killed by the baton strikes. He was killed due to his medical condition, drug use, and exertion.

How would that exertion be prevented by having more officers present?

My local police dept. responded to a call of a "disorderly person". He was throwing stuff around a small shop. Multiple officers were called. A struggle ensued it took appx 12 officers to control the suspect enough to handcuff him. No batons were used IIRC, in this incident.

HE DIED. He had an intoxicating amount of coacine in his system, and that caused a heart attack while he was struggling with officers.

That happened appx 1.5 years ago. 29 officers, and the police dept. were sued.

The problem isn't baton strikes or overweight people. The problem is use of hardcore drugs. They effect people's judgement, and their ability to feel pain or discomfort. I'm sure that if Mr Jones was sober he wouldn't have exerted HIMSELF to death. But since he was acting irrationally, and probably incapable of feeling his own level of exertion, he contined fighting, and struggling well past what any reasonable person would.

Mr Jones DROVE his car to the restuarant. He went inside and talked to an employee. Then he went outside and passed out. That's when 911 was called. He came to and went back inside as the FD was arriving. He went back outside was jumping around by the fire truck. He went to the front of the parking lot, and appeared to pass out again. All of this took 15 minutes.

Why would someone "pass out" twice in 15 minutes?

I'll also point out that when I asked what SPECIFICALLY officers should have done to take Mr Jones into custody, without having him exert himself you didn't answer the question. You said wait for more officers. WHAT SHOULD ALL THOSE OFFICERS ACTUALLY DO.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deputy Sheriff Bruce Lee
Riverside County Sheriff's Department, CA
End of Watch: Tuesday, May 13, 2003

Biographical Info
Age: 45
Tour of Duty: 22 yr
Badge Number: 1088

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Assault
Date of Incident: Tuesday, May 13, 2003
Weapon Used: Blunt object; Baton
Suspect Info: Shot and killed

Deputy Lee was beaten to death with a baton after responding to a domestic disturbance call on Avenida Velazco Street, in La Quinta, at 0940 hours. The call involved reports of an emotionally disturbed man attempting to break into his parents' home. Deputy Lee became involved in a struggle and the suspect beat him severely with a baton. Deputy Lee suffered severe head injuries from the attack.

Deputy Lee's backup officer arrived on the scene and found Deputy Lee unconscious. The suspect then began to approach the backup officer with the baton. The suspect refused to drop the baton and was shot and killed by the backup officer. Deputy Lee was transported to Desert Regional Medical Center where he succumbed to his injuries approximately two hours later.

Deputy Lee had been with the Riverside County Sheriff's Department for 22 years.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can keep putting "officer down" deaths, for the next several THOUSAND posts. Law Enforcement Officers are just like other people, they bleed and die if they don't take the dangers of their jobs seriously. They don't have special powers. So stunning suspects like Spock on Star Trek, or doing Jedi mind tricks won't be an answer for quite some time. Simply saying they should have done something else isn't an answer it is a cop out.

The heart of police work is talking to people, witnesses, victims, suspects, passerbys, and so on. When people talk to one another, they like to be relatively close to one another. In that situation an offficer is taking a risk everytime they decide to talk to someone. Most of the time nothing unusual happens, just talk. When Ofc. Pike attmepted to talk to Mr Jones, he took that opportunity to attack Ofc. Pike.

[Character Assassin]

127. Holy Crap, they aren't? What a chump-change outfit

In California, we're certified in CPR and as First Responders, with many cops (but certainly not most) going up to EMT leve, as have I.

I can't imagine why a dept. wouldn't even certifiy officers in CPR. It's like three hours, maybe, of bone-head instruction.

[OLY-M4gery]

132. CPR

In the city that I live in, the police dept doesn't carry any first aid supplies, or expect the officers to be first responders. They have a full time FD that provides EMS services, and they are the primary EMS providers for the city.

3 hours per officer per year X 400 officers = $24,000 minimum, for just officers to attend on "straight time" Probably more like $50,000 per year, for CPR training.

Most places are not having organizations within a city government duplicate the services they provide.

Before anyone gets rowdy about that, ask yourself how many tax payers want to pay MORE taxes than they do now so 2 departments at the same level of government can provide duplicate services.

It is usually much different in towns, cities, rural areas etc. where EMS may not be full time, and have very large areas to provide services to.

Not that the FD was at the scene of this incident and left.

[diamond14]

143. thanks. nice to hear from an HONEST, Respectable police officer

if more cops would STAND UP, and tell the truth about this ugly disgraceful display of police authority....then cops would get a lot more respect on the streets...

I'm looking forward to other RESPECTABLE police telling us 'what's wrong with this"....because there certainly is something REAL wrong with BEATING A MAN TO DEATH, who was un-armed, dancing-in-one-spot in a White Castle Hamburger place, was a regular customer, who fell down outside in the parking lot so the employees called 911....


these cops actions are OUTRAGEOUS....


this incident should result in other RESPECTABLE cops asking for more training, and pointing out the unacceptable procedures in the current approach....

citizens will have much more respect for the cops who STAND UP and demand that this change...and we will certainly respect them for it....

for those cops who HIDE behind that BLUE WALL, they are complicit in homicide and should be removed from their positions of authority NOW...

Police yourselves, cops...it's the right thing to do....

and THANK-YOU, character assassin for STANDING UP....and breaking through that BLUE WALL....it was horrifying to watch those homicidal cops standing there asking 'should we do something' and then hmmm, hmmm...'should we' as a human being was gasping his last breath, after he cried for his moma....those cops just let him DIE, after beating him brutally....it's time to boot them out of their positions of authority, and I hope real cops lead the way...

[toopers]

145. Amen, you really are doing your best to perpetuate a lie!

Jones was not beaten to death. He died because he overexerted himself while RESISTING ARREST!

[diamond14]

159. no "troopers"....I still believe that there are HONEST, respectable cops

and some will STAND UP from behind the BIG BLUE WALL...to the great admiration of American communities...the ones who STAND UP are truly the American HEROS....


and I am sad that you attacked me for thanking a police officer.

must be the o'reilly approach....SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP....it's the victim's fault, he must have flung himself against EIGHT clubs until he died....while the eight killers watched as he lay there gasping his last breaths, trying valiantly to decide whether to start CPR....should we help him? hmmmm..should we do anything? hmmmmmmmm, are you doing anything? hmmmmm.....what do you think?...hmmmm

this victim said it spot-on, his mother warned him, and she was right....crying for mama....mama....mama as eight guys BEAT YOU is hardly resisting arrest...and where is the MISSING tape????

[toopers]

161. Amen, Please tell me where I "attacked" you for thanking a police officer!

You are not addressing the issue regarding the statement that you made that Jones was "beat to death" as you stated in several posts, including, but not limited to, #36 and #40. Those statements are incorrect and by continuing to make those statements you are, in fact, perpetuating a lie. Jones died because he overexerted himself while attacking the cops and resisting arrest. The bruises from the billy sticks were "superficial" according to the coroner.

I am sure his mother warned him not to mess with the cops, just like my mother warned me, and any good parent would warn their loved one. It would almost be criminal to tell a person to fight the cops.

[diamond14]

167. #148, and you claim to be a cop and you called victim 'lard butt'

several times (#141 and 150)...guess it's important to de-humanize your victims...do you also use offensive terms when 'SERVING and protecting' women, Hispanics, physically challenged, Italians, Irish, and Blacks???...I'll bet you have an offensive term for all your victims....

[Loonman]

118. The Usual

"He wasn't. Skipper was just a good old, fat jolly fella. He wasn't violent."


"Everyone he met, that he touched, loved him," said his aunt, Diane Payton. "He was never mean."

(and we want money)

[Catherine Vincent]

119. "(and we want money)"

If the family didn't say that, then you need to shut the hell up about that.

[private_ryan]

135. no they didn't yet

just held the news conference from a lawyers office. Either way I'm done, nothing I can say can convince a few people that he died because he had drugs on an already weak heart and tried to fight the cops.

If a 400 lbs crackhead attacks me and I fight back, am I guilty of murder if he dies of heart failure?

[toopers]

139. What's even worse . . .

according to the way the homicide ruling was assigned, if this fat, drug filled, walking coronary would have been having sex at the time, then I guess his partner would have been guilty of committing homicide.

[diamond14]

173. should have charged V.P. Nelson Rockefellers' secretary, when

Nelson DIED in his own luxurious hotel, while committing adultery?....and she waited a long time before calling the front desk...as my dear old mom quipped "my goodness, Nelson came and he went all at the same time"....

any one know what happed to the secretary?, was there a payout?....no charges were ever filed...

[toopers]

175. Of course, she wasn't in Ohio either.

Who knows what would have happened if they had been.

[knowledgeispower]

140. Man, it boggles my mind how sick some people are

To answer your question, if you are a cop and a guy attacks you, you have certain things you can do to subdue him. If you choose not to try any of those and instead opt to beat him to death, then YES, you ARE responsible. Can you not understand that cops have duties above and beyond that of a normal citizen?

[toopers]

141. Again, a misstatement of the facts . . .

This lard butt was not beaten to death. He died because he overexerted himself. The cops first duty is to protect the innocent, law abiding citizens. If this guy had not attacked the cops, and repeatedly resisted arrested, he would still be alive today.

[DoNotRefill]

150. I object to your use of the term "lard butt".

It's offensive.

[toopers]

153. Anything can be deemed offensive.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

[diamond14]

160. it's scary that cops feel that way about American Citizens that they

"SERVE and protect"...

such nasty language offends me too (and I am not overweight at all)


such nasty language suggests that 'troopers' might use similarly offensive terms for women, Blacks, Hispanics, Middle Easterners, mentally challenged individual, Italian, Irish and more....I hope 'troopers' never "SERVES" in my neighborhood...

[Catherine Vincent]

154. If you think about it this guy was pretty innocent.

He was only dancing somewhere he shouldn't have been.

[toopers]

155. Oh, I forgot about the various illicit drugs he was using,

the fact that he hit a cop, or the fact that he contiually resisted arrest. Other than that, he did nothing wrong.

[monobrau]

171. Where do you live?

It's hard to believe that you have witnessed these kinds of incidents first hand and could claim he was "only dancing". I'd like to know if that's what you would have thought if you had been standing in line with a small child while this "dancing" was going on.
Have you ever tried to place an order in a fast food joint or buy something in a store while some crackhead or drunk creates a disturbance and yells a barely coherent string of obscenities?
Working people who live in cities where this is commonplace are sick of it.
If only there were these jolly, rotund ambassadors of good will dropping in during the wee hours of the morning to spread joy through song and dance for the enjoyment of all that you seem to believe in, the world would truly be a better place.
No, what we get are noisy, dangerous, deranged bullies who make the world a little uglier and a little scarier.

[private_ryan]

142. I understand the difference and the cops do too

I would've ripped his head off, the cops tried to arrest him.

[DoNotRefill]

149. Personally....

if I had been there as a "normal citizen" and the guy attacked me like he attacked the cop, I'd have simply shot the guy until he stopped meaningful motion. That's the SAFE response for the person being attacked. Fortunately, I no longer have to abide by the "cop rules" for use of force, but by the simpler, lower standards reserved for "normal citizens".

Oh, in case you're wondering, such a shooting would be legal, at least where I am and throughout the majority of the US.

[toopers]

151. Most people would have responded the same way.

Further, if there was a 400lb man lying on my lawn, or dancing for that matter, I would want him to leave. If he did not show any sign of leaving on his own, then I would call the cops to remove him.

[diamond14]

162. we just spray people with a lawn-watering hose here, and then they

wake up and move along....or throw snow on their face if it's winter, and they'll wake up and move along....


You don't need to BEAT HIM TO DEATH, just because he's laying on your lawn...BTW, he appears to have been a 'customer' at the White Castle hamburger joint, and nobody seems to be afraid of him there....check out the slide of the'dancing' where employees are NOT AFRAID at all.....and the victim is holding a purchased? drink....

the call was made because this man was laying in the parking lot after going out to his car....


EMPLOYEES walking around near the 'dancing man' in the White Castle hamburger joint...doesn't look like they are afraid....



by the clock on the wall, two or three minutes 'dancing' in the same spot, no danger or flailing here....I haven't seen the whole White Castle video...but I certainly would like someone to post the whole 'inside' camera...it was portrayed by news as so violent, but the man is only in one spot and employees don't appear to be running for cover from a violent person....

[toopers]

163. Again, the lie.

You can't get beyond the lie that the officers "beat him to death. Until you can identify where the coroner stated that Jones died because of the wounds from the beating you should quit making the statement.

BTW, if you spray a person with water he can then come after you for assault, even if he is lying on your lawn.

[monkeyboy]

177. But he won't come after you

Didn't you read amen1234's post? They just get up and walk away, all peaceful-like. Every time. Guaranteed.

[toopers]

164. Again, the lie.

You can't get beyond the lie that the officers "beat him to death. Until you can identify where the coroner stated that Jones died because of the wounds from the beating you should quit making the statement.

BTW, if you spray a person with water he can then come after you for assault, even if he is lying on your lawn.

[DoNotRefill]

147. given the facts in this case....

what could the cops have done differently other than simply run away?

Mace? It enrages people on PCP, and I understand that at some point he WAS maced. Tasered? The cops didn't have a taser to hit him with, but they had called for a supervisor, who had one, but the guy attacked them before he got there. Wrestle with him? They did that, and one of the cops was almost disarmed while doing it. Pulled some ninja shit? Sorry, most cops aren't ninjas.

As you point out, cops have duties above and beyond those of a normal citizen. That pretty much rules out running away...

[xchrom]

165. the coroners report puts the blame

directly in the cops court.
i.e. if they HAD not beaten the chances are he would still be alive. not the other way around.
you won't find cause of death came as a result of exerting himself.
jones had done nothing to deserve this beating -- we don't beat animals this way -- and as some of our ever so cultured and sophisticated participants have pointed out -- they would have taken his head off or in the case of another blame jones death on jones rather than right where the coroner put the blame on the cops.
there is no way to sugar coat this or drag unrelated cases in which cops are killed into this.
cops do not react this way to every situation because they are going to get killed -- you couldn't DO police work with that frame of reference and you could get beaten for running a stop sign.

[toopers]

168. Actually, the coroner states

that this his findings do not imply that the cops acted incorrectly. Cops rarely beat someone they are trying to arrest, unless the perp is resisting arrest (please don't misinterpret this statement to say that cops "never" beat someone who does not deserve it). However, Jones clearly attacked the officers, he clearly continued to resist arrest, and unfortunately, he died of a coronary condition that was exacerbated by his fighting against the cops.

By the way, if a pitbull is attacking me, I am going to beat the hell out of it until I feel I am safe.

[xchrom]

172. jones was not a pit bull

that jones resisted arrest is not the question -- the coroners report most certainly puts the cause of jones death in the police court.
and it was a homicide -- jones didn't get dead by his own hand.

[toopers]

176. I never stated that "Jones was a pitbull".

Nowhere in the report does it say that the death resulted from the beating, as so many people are trying to lie about. At best, the report states that the death resulted from the altercation. However, the report is clear when it states that the wounds inflicted by the cops were "superficial" and that the ruling of homicide was meant to imply that the cops acted incorrectly. Jones is at least equally responsible for his own death because he attacked a cop and then continued to resist arrest. If I would have asked Jones to leave my restaurant because I did not want him dancing in my restaurant, and then he attacks me and dies because he overexerted himself during the scuffle with me, does that make me responsible for his death? Not a chance.

[DubyaSux]

178. Pitbull?

I keep hearing how somebody wouldn't beat their pitbull that way.

Excuse me, but a pitbull can't grab your gun and shoot you.

Is public intoxication supposed to be legal for some people? Meaning, the cops should have left the guy alone because he was so wasted, confronting him could cause trouble?

Or maybe the cops should have let the guy go after stating "Let me show you what my momma taught me" (after innocently calling them "redneck white boys") and roundhousing a cop so the situation woudn't get out of control?

Maybe they should have left the guy alone because it would be impossible for a guy that wasted to get in his car, drive away, and kill somebody. Or some other common risk to the public along those lines.

From what I see here, the only option the cops could have excercised that would have made everybody happy, was to let the guy go, pull out their guns, and shoot themselves in the head.

[toopers]

179. I am happy the police did their jobs,

and protected the law abiding citizens.

[newyorican]

180. Yr attitude causes riots...

Homicide (per the definition above) is being killed by another. That may not be in your definition, but that is the literal and legal definition. Now, all that's left is to identify who or whom is responsible.

[toopers]

181. Oh wow, you are a master of the obvious!

What's your point?

[juancarlos]

186. This thread is crazy

I live in Cincinnati, where the entire tape has been shown numerous times on the news.

Nathaniel Jones bears the responsibility for his own death. He attacked the Police, wounding two officers. These officers responded to the attack by attempting to subdue him. To subdue and arrest this 350 pound, behemoth. He was on three illegal drugs, was racist, and trying to kill the officers. He died due to heart failure. This was brought on by a combination of drug abuse, morbid obesity, and the struggle initiated by him. Jones ignored repeated demands to put his hands behind his back and even grabbed an officer's weapon. (The aluminum baton) The officers are not at fault here. The coroner's report showed intoxicating levels of three drugs. It also showed that there were no blows to the head of Mr. Jones, and that there was no organ damage inflicted by the batons. The video shows Mr. Jones using racial slurs against the officers and wounding an officer with a strong blow to the head. The officers did a good job. Unfortunately, Mr. Jones brought his own death by his own actions. Drugs, heart disease, obesity, and exertion don't mix.

BTW, Cincinnati Police carry batons made from aluminum over a styrofoam-type core.