US forces accused of 'massacre' in disputed Iraq battle

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1069493699640

The US army came under renewed pressure on Wednesday over its conduct in a battle at the weekend in the central Iraqi town of Samarra, as Iran's senior religious leader accused the American forces of "a savage massacre" in which 54 locals were reportedly killed.


The battle, in which US forces attempting to deliver new Iraqi currency to two Samarran banks were ambushed by a small force of insurgents - said by US officials to have been dressed as fighters from Saddam Hussein's fedayeen militia - has led to wildly differing accounts from American military officials and local witnesses.

Hospital officials in Samarra said only eight people were killed, all of them civilians, including one Iranian pilgrim. Samarra is the burial place of two of Shia Islam's most revered imams.

Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations for coalition forces in Iraq, said he had spoken about the incident on Wednesday to the commander of the division responsible for security in central Iraq, Major General Ray Odierno, but that no investigation had been sought. "He, at this point, believes he has been given the full truth but wants to close out any questions out there," Brig Gen Kimmitt said.

<snip>

[gWbush is Mabus]

1. new thought

maybe the propaganda was an attempt to cover up a Mai Lai type massacre.

[alittlelark]

2. wonder where the bodies are

perhaps in a new Iraq 'mass grave'. Hate is a very strong word I rarely use, but I HATE these reptiles in power.

[Bozola]

4. Unfortunately, "hate" is the correct word to use.

One should hate evil in all of it's incarnations.

[damnraddem]

6. Now, how can you blame the U.S. military for this?

Don't you realize how embarrassing it is to recover bodies of women and children and display them for the press as the fearsome attackers of the U.S. convoy? Anyone in his right mind would just say 'we killed 54 of them but somehow forgot to collect the bodies.'

[reprobate]

16. Where are the bodies?

A tennet of Islam is that the dead must be buried by sundown. The bodies were most likely recovered by neighbors and relatives and interned almost immediately.

[The Magistrate]

3. There Does Not Seem Much Real Dispute Here, Mr. Pilgrim

My own inclination is to believe the local persons, particularly the hospital personnel, over the spokesmen of the U.S. military.

[pinto]

7. I agree

but I work in Public Health and may be biased. The reported eye witness accounts of indiscriminate firing on targets has a ring of truth, IMHO. When "anyone" may be an enemy, it's not a long leap to "everyone".

[Barrett808]

12. There have been several reports of indisciminate fire by US troops

Robert Fisk and others have noted that the troops have no fire discipline. This will only get worse when the professional soldiers are withdrawn and replaced by Guard and Reserve forces.

[ConcernedCanuk]

13. Sadly - I fear that you are correct -

. . Iraq needs peacekeepers, not warriors

[Barrett808]

15. Some examples of "collateral damage"

Buried leads -- Iraqi civilians killed at US hands, story an afterthought
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=243799#244030

for example:

U.S. Jets Strike Targets in Central Iraq
By SLOBODAN LEKIC
Associated Press Writer
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3421862,00.html

No Americans were injured, but two Iraqis were hurt when, according to police, U.S. soldiers stunned by the explosion opened fire in all directions. The U.S. military said it was investigating.

[pinto]

21. kick n/t

[truthspeaker]

25. our troops aren't trained for peacekeeping

because the US shouldn't do peacekeeping, according to the Repugs.

[ConcernedCanuk]

5. USA may regret not keeping newspeople safe in Iraq

. . as DoD credibilty wanes, public opinion will go to the side of the "locals"

. . and with not enough credible news anchors around, the DoD is at the mercy of the people of Iraq, and the US Military is NOT in their "good books" so to speak

And personally, I will believe almost ANYONE other than DoD's puppets.

Just My Humble Canuk Opinion

[mhr]

8. BFEE Believable? You Must Be kidding! Truth Is The First Casualty Of War

eom

[izzie]

9. From the first this story has looked wrong.

I think I will really read the Iraq blog on this one and have been reading all ocver on the news papers. The story smells.

[xchrom]

10. this isn't going away

they are firing into crowds and all over -- houses, what ever -- they are going to kill innocents. and as it turns out more innocents than any body else are the ones paying for this misadventure.

[ConcernedCanuk]

11. We must remember, most of the USA's forces are young Americans

. . trained to kill

. . and they must be confused and scared

. . after all - was not the "Mission Accomplished" ??

. . and where are the WMD's they were supposed to be protecting America from?

. . These kids ain't stupid

. . and they must be asking the same question that reverberated around Vietnam

. . "What are we fighting for" ???

. . sadly, it seems

- just to stay alive

[Malva Zebrina]

14. confused and scared

and that absolves them all. ???

What and where do we draw the line? I really do want to know because I struggle with this issue.

Can we continue to "support the troops" in this type of irresponsible killing? Not in my book.

Sorry--not popular I know and do not care--I cannot support these "troops" who are doing this. People, mothers and children are being slaughtered--these children were not firing on our troops--these mothers were not firing upon these troops either. Yet they are dead and died bleeding at the hand of an enemy who had no doubt they could kill them all, by and with their superior weapons. The children and the mothers, actually , had no weapons, did they?

Try to imagine your next door neighbor--and her children and then imagine them being bombed and slaughtered for no reason by persons representing a occupation taking over thier home because within that home was something that was valuable, that they wanted and that they took by using force and their superior weapons. They are dead--why should a little child be dead for doing nothing?

I am not sure if I can support the "troops" when this happens. That is my honest assessment. If they are confused and if they are scared, my god, what are supposed to do about that? Did they not know or realize that this was their job when they signed up?

What do we do about firefighters who are confused and scared and cannot perform so are responsible for the deaths of people in fires, or the police who are scared so fail to contain criminals? Bith these jobs are high risk jobs also, but those who choose to be paid members of these, know that there are indeed risks invovled and that they arek indeed, being paid to take these risks. They KNOW this.

Please--the military signed up to defend or whatever this country--they are now engaged in brute murder and are hiding behind the cloak of "war"--an illegal one at that.

Forgive them for killing , in an indisriminate act, mothers and their children who just happend to be in the way? How can we do that and still maintain our own sense of morality?

I am truly conflicted about this but am willing to say that I will stick by my anti-war convictions--there is not excuse for the killing, the murder of all of these innocent people. I simply cannot condone it and, concomittantly, cannot support any troops who engage in this.

[ConcernedCanuk]

17. "and that absolves them all. ??? " - No - not at all

. . one has to take responsibility for their own actions

and I firmly believe that just because "that's what I was told" is not enough.

We must use our own sense of decency, regardless of what we are "told"

and this is NOT a "decent" war

- actually it's not a "war" at all,

It's an INVASION of a Sovereign Nation by the U S of A

Simple as that

Just My Humble Canuk Opinion

[goforit]

18. This has been what it is all about since day 1, intention to steal OIL.

This is what his father and his father's croanies are all about.
Vietnam is prime example of which both Poppy and Kissinger were
responsible for.

One of my dreams is to take these two by their hands and walk them
down to the Vietnam Memorial in Washington DC and ask them to
read and write down each name that has been engraved on the wall.

These men have no empathy for those whom have sacrificed life.
Life is expendable to them......so long as it is not their own.

[reprobate]

19. Marianne, I completely understand your anger.

The death of innocents seems to be the mark of modern warfare. We call ourselves civilized, but everything I see in our modern society tells me that there is nothing civil any longer about the United States of America.

There was a time that we could say that we valued human life more than anyone on earth, but that is no longer true. We value corporations and their profits more than anything else.

But I can't blame the line troops for this. They are for the most part teenagers, scared and following orders. I DO blame the officer corp, mainly the staff officers who devise strategy. Most of them have never seen combat, so they have no idea what the troops go thru.

But mainly I blame Captain Codpiece and his PNAC buddies. None of them have fought in combat and never will. They are killing not only people, they are killing this country.

[0007]

22. When was that time?

We took this country from the Indians, breaking every treaty we ever made with them to our advanage.

We enslaved the Chinese coolie to work our mines and build our railroads and shipped 'em back to China with nothing but broken bodies.

We treated the backs about the same way as the Indian and the Chinese coolie.

We only gave women the right to vote less than a hundred years ago and still we try to tell women that we have the right to control her body.

But perhaps your right, what do I know?

[UpInArms]

20. as I read your post, a song ran in my head

I have no answers for you - but here's the song:

Military Madness (Graham Nash)

In an upstairs room in Blackpool, by the side of the northern sea
The army had my father, and my mother was having me
Military madness was killing my country
Solitary sadness comes over me

And after the school was over, and I moved to the other side
I found another country, but I never lost my pride
Military madness was killing the country
Solitary sadness creeps over me

And after the wars are over, and the body count is finally filed
I hope that man discovers, what's driving the people wild
Military madness is killing the country
So much sadness between you and me

[akitamata]

23. Kudos, Marianne!!!

I love reading what you write, really. Bless you. Akita Mata

[Judi Lynn]

24. US SOLDIER BLASTS SAMARRA FIREFIGHT 'LIES'

US SOLDIER BLASTS SAMARRA FIREFIGHT 'LIES' Dec 6 2003




By Mark Ellis, Foreign Editor


US claims to have killed 54 guerrillas in an Iraqi firefight were exposed as lies yesterday by one of the soldiers who took part.

Giving a graphic account of trigger-happy troopers raining down massive firepower on anybody who moved, the experienced combat leader said: "Most of the casualties were civilians, not insurgents or criminals.

"Tanks, Brads (Bradley Fighting Vehicles) and armoured Humvees hosed down houses, buildings and cars.

"This is done knowing there are people inside these buildings who may not be connected to the insurgents."

It is now believed only eight people - including an elderly Iranain woman and a child - died in Sunday's battle at Samarra, 60 miles north of Baghdad. (snip/...)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=13696975_method=full_siteid=50143_headline=-US%2DSOLDIER%2DBLASTS%2DSAMARRA%2DFIREFIGHT%2D%2DLIES%2D-name_page.html

(Hope this link works. It's a little tricky. If it doesn't, and you still want to read the story, copy & paste the headline into google "news" and it should cough up the story for you.)

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

27. Thanks for the update, JudiLyn. Link works fine.

What a tragedy.

[Tracer]

26. Indiscriminate Fire.

I'm sure that most of you have seen footage of the aftermath of the firefight in Samarra.

What struck me the most was seeing the hundreds of bullet holes in buildings, from the ground floor up to the 4th (or 5th) floor. This certainly indicated to me that rounds were sprayed everywhere Ñ and not in a targeted manner.