Soldiers Shout “Kill! Kill! Kill!” Outside Anti-War Priest’s House

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

Just released on Pacifica. Blurb is halfway down the rundown of today's shows.

http://www.pacifica.org/programs/dn/031203.html

8:35-8:40 75 U.S. Soldiers Shout “Kill! Kill! Kill!” Outside Anti-War Priest’s House

INTRO: We speak with Father John Dear, author of more than 20 books on peace and justice and outspoken critic of the U.S.-led invasion and occupation of Iraq about why 75 U.S. soldiers shouted “Kill! Kill! Kill!” outside his front door.

In a recent article on CommonDreams.org, Father John Dear writes:

“I live in a tiny, remote, impoverished, three block long town in the desert of northeastern New Mexico. Everyone in town--and the whole state--knows that I am against the occupation of Iraq, that I have called for the closing of Los Alamos, and that as a priest, I have been preaching, like the Pope, against the bombing of Baghdad….Suddenly, at 7 a.m., the shouting got dramatically louder. I looked out the front window of the house where I live, next door to the church, and there they were--all 75 of them, standing yards away from my front door, in the street right in front of my house and our church, shouting and screaming to the top of their lungs, “Kill! Kill! Kill!” Their commanders had planted them there and were egging them on.”
<snip>
Link to interview (realplayer): http://stream.realimpact.org/rihurl.ram?file=webactive/demnow/dn20031203.ra
(You will have to go to the story which is near the end)

Link to Common Dreams article: http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1129-07.htm

<snip>

This, I think, is a new tactic. Over the years, I have been arrested some 75 times in demonstrations, been imprisoned for a “Plowshares” disarmament action, been bugged, tapped, and harassed, searched at airports, and monitored by police. But this time, the soldiers who will soon march through Baghdad and attack desert homes in Iraq, practiced on me. They confronted me personally, just as the death squad militaries did in Guatemala and El Salvador in the 1980s, which I witnessed there on several occasions.

I decided I had to do something. I put on my winter coat and walked out the front door right into the middle of the street. They stopped shouting and looked at me, so I said loudly, publicly for all to hear, “In the name of God, I order all of you to stop this nonsense, and not to go to Iraq. I want all of you to quit the military, disobey your orders to kill, and not to kill anyone. I do not want you to get killed. I want you to practice the love and nonviolence of Jesus. God does not bless war. God does not want you to kill so Bush and Cheney can get more oil. God does not support war. Stop all this and go home. God bless you.”

Their jaws dropped, their eyeballs popped and they stood in shock and silence, looking steadily at me. Then they burst out laughing. Finally, the commander dismissed them and they left.
<snip>

[Red_Viking]

1. Holy sh*t

Now that's a man who could get me to go back to church. He must really have a pair.

Is this really true? What the hell is going on?? We may as well be in El Salvador or Guatemala. Sounds scary and familiar.

RV

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

6. Read his story published in Common Dreams at this link

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1129-07.htm

[drfemoe]

60. chill bumps

n/t

[Voltaire99]

69. The sound of America's soul

"Kill! Kill! Kill!"

One syllable. One purpose.

Thank the neocons as well as our warrior liberals. There is a price to be paid socially for unleashing our army, and this is only the beginning. By the second Bush administration, the soldiers will likely be doing more than just screaming in the street...

Time for a little reminder from WH Auden, I reckon:


'O What Is That Sound'

O what is that sound which so thrills the ear
Down in the valley drumming, drumming?
Only the scarlet soldiers, dear,
The soldiers coming.

O what is that light I see flashing so clear
Over the distance brightly, brightly?
Only the sun on their weapons, dear,
As they step lightly.

O what are they doing with all that gear,
What are they doing this morning, this morning?
Only their usual manoeuvres, dear.
Or perhaps a warning.

O why have they left the road down there,
Why are they suddenly wheeling, wheeling?
Perhaps a change in their orders, dear.
Why are you kneeling?

O haven't they stopped for the doctor's care,
Haven't they reined their horses, their horses?
Why, they are none of them wounded, dear.
None of these forces.

O is it the parson they want, with white hair,
Is it the parson, is it, is it?
No, they are passing his gateway, dear,
Without a visit.

O it must be the farmer who lives so near.
It must be the farmer so cunning, so cunning?
They have passed the farmyard already, dear,
And now they are running.

O where are you going? Stay with me here!
Were the vows you swore deceiving, deceiving?
No, I promised to love you, dear,
But I must be leaving.

O it's broken the lock and splintered the door,
O it's the gate where they're turning, turning;
Their boots are heavy on the floor
And their eyes are burning.

-- W. H. Auden

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

70. Wonderfully apropos.

Fr. Dear's speech from January at the war protest in Washington:

Today, in the name of truth and love, we say, “Don’t bomb Iraq,” because bombing Iraq will not bring democracy; will not bring nuclear disarmament or peace to the Middle East; will not prevent terrorist attacks; will not help the international work of peacemaking or the U.N. inspections; will not feed the hungry or pay for jobs, healthcare, education, housing, or environmental clean-up; will not uphold international law; will not solve our problems. Bombing Iraq will only protect the oil companies; sow the seeds of further terrorism; set a horrible global precedent, that it's ok to bomb preemptively; and massacre hundreds of thousands of people.

Today, in the name of the innocent children of Iraq, we say, “Don’t bomb Iraq,” because they have died by the hundreds of thousands from our sanctions, they live in terror from our bombs, they only want to live in peace with us.

Today, in the name of Martin Luther King, Jr., we say “Don’t bomb Iraq,” because Dr. King said the night before he died, “The choice is no longer violence or nonviolence. It’s nonviolence or nonexistence”; because he reclaimed Jesus’ famous words, “love your enemies, don’t bomb them“; because he calls us to become people of nonviolence; because he says peaceful means are the only way to a peaceful future and the God of peace.

Today, in the name of Philip Berrigan, we say, “Don’t bomb Iraq,” because my friend Phil who died last month says, “We are not allowed to kill. We are not allowed to be silent while the killing goes on in our name.” So we pledge in the name of brother Phil and brother Martin to peacefully, prayerfully, nonviolently disrupt this country and make it harder for Bush and Cheney to massacre our sisters and brothers in Iraq.

Today, in the name of the God of peace, we say, “Don’t bomb Iraq,” because war is not the will of God; war is never blessed by God; war is the ultimate mortal sin; there is no such thing as a just war; war cannot end terrorism because war is terrorism; war is not the way to God. The God of peace calls us to beat our swords into plowshares and live in peace with every human being on the planet.

Dear friends, don’t be discouraged. Don’t be afraid. Don’t give up.

Keep on speaking out for peace. Thank you, and God bless you.

[CBHagman]

78. Is there a link to that?

Did you just transcribe those remarks yourself, or was it written up in a publication?

At any rate, thanks for sharing them. I'd like to pass them on to friends and family.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

106. There's a link to the speech on the front page of his web site. n/t

[Just Me]

100. THIS IS AN OUTRAGE,...

,...and I hope to GOD that there are witnesses to or some recording of this event!!! It's bad enough that so many are having to overcome tones of fascist-like behavior. But, this is blatantly over the line and an outrage!!!

I have already passed this through my grapevines. This deserves follow-through!!!!!

[goforit]

103. Tom DeLay has really rubbed off on these brainwashed entities.

It is time we nip this one in the butt.

This is an Outrage alright!!!!

And we can not let it continue.

[koopie57]

115. He could get me to go back to church too

I use to love going to church....the peacefullness and comfort I felt. One Sunday morning my pastor said, "Let us pray for the continued wisdom of our President George Bush." I have not been back since. He has come to my home several times to question why I have not been to church. The next time I will tell him. I do not mind praying for the idiot bush, but to pray for his continued widsom is just too damn much. But this man who stood up to those soldiers ... he got the balls.

[Military Brat]

2. Who were their commanders?

Seems like there ought to be a law against this. Or are they practicing for martial law in the future?

[neuvocat]

4. I think that there is.

Who is this man's representative?

[burrowowl]

31. Probably Udal (Dem)

and a good rep or Heather Wilson (Repug) bad rep. If SE NM then Pearce (Repug) farther right than Heather.
Father Dear is a good man!

[DUreader]

10. I'm sure it was a first ammendment zone

[DRoseDARs]

14. Aren't there anti-intimidation laws on the books...

...as a response to the tactic of using burning crosses placed on people's private lawns to frighten and intimidate? I hope so; he really shouldn't let this slide if he has the legal recourse available to him. This isn't Guatemala or El Salvador in the 80's; people can face punishment for this.

[Dogmudgeon]

73. The Hatch Act

And that's just a start.

There's also a line in the Uniform Code of Military Justice dating back to Anglo-Saxon law about upholding the Consititution "against all Enemies, Foreign or Domeftic".

I think this would qualify as an
Operation, Military, Illegal, Domeftic.

--bkl
Baftard, Communift, Libbrul, God-Damned

[Grins]

93. I agree!!!

AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS, I agree with you. I'm a former officer and I think the commander of those troops should be relieved, and then court martialed.

This "commander" used public employees to intimidate a private citizen and a religious community. This is disgraceful and he should be borought up on charges unders articles 116, 133, and 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The fact that the General called the Mayor to act as a mediator tells me that they are nervous about this. This is the kind of crap that the militry does in places like Mexico, Guatelmala, and Nicaragua.

[goforit]

104. Harrassment of civilians, I do believe is unconstitutional!

Time to go to court!!!

[roughsatori]

3. I wish I were in his Parish KICK

[Forkboy]

5. Would that be our "Patriotic Soldiers"?

[thebigidea]

89. how dare you not support the troops!

I am sickened by your lack of patriotism. You probably hate Wal-Mart too. FREEDOMHATER!

[Forkboy]

99. heh

:D

[Media_Lies_Daily]

7. This is about a half-step away from SA Brownshirt thuggery of the 1930s...

What will they do next? Start throwing firebombs into his home?

[dani]

65. yeah,

this is *very* disturbing to me. Another ominous episode to make me a little more paranoid about a gradual slide towards pseudofascism.

[HereSince1628]

82. We can no longer slide toward "pseudofascism," we are there

I don't say that lightly. For the most part American's throw around the term "fascist" or "nazi" anytime they feel that some authority is pushing them to do something they don't like. Which is to say Americans use the term perjoratively, and hyperbolically. It isn't used to suggest someone adheres to fascist ideologies, but rather that someone is a domineering ass--typically a partner, parent, teacher or boss.

Out there on the far right are various political ideologies. Those most recognized as socially depraved are forms of fascism such as the totalitarian dictatorships of Germany and Italy. Less well known is falangism, a variant of fascism, it was the political party of Franco's Spain and more recently its philosophy has operated in Latin America.

Also out there on the far right is something caled "Neoconservatism." I kid you not.

This isn't just a name that was coined recently. Neoconservatism was a European movement following WWI, and then as now, it promoted the application of military force for foreign policy solutions (google "Rudolf Vierhaus" a European scholar of conservatism). Because fascism was the form of extreme RW politics that came to dominate western Europe, neoconservatism is overshadowed, forgotten or simply conflated with fascism.

We have a dangerous variant neoconservatism in the US. NOW.

Irving Kristol, William Kristol, and their ilk are well educated. Indeed, their erudition in political history and political philosophy is so superior to most Americans--including the media--that Kristol can hang the ugly name neoconservatism right out in the open. People read it, hear it spoken, and never realize that it promoted foreign policies as fascism.

[bluestateguy]

8. What great "Christians"

[NickB79]

9. Support our troops!

In their fight against peace, love and Jesus Christ (we all know he's a commie liberal, right?).

[roughsatori]

13. How dare you! these poor soldiers only joined for college benefits!!!

And yes, I am being sarcastic as that is the line that seems to follow "support our troops" at DU.

[alittlelark]

55. Jesus IS a liberal - borderline commie

that's why the religion of the masses had to be subverted by Falwell et al to allow for the capitalist Ayn Rand dream. I was into her for a year or so 'till I came to my senses.

Jesus taught the antithesis of all that we are now hearing from the religious right (=wrong). I think that those of us that left the church years ago did so out of a true sense of moraltity.

What we are seeing is a dramatic shift. I grew up in NM and graduated fom Manzano (ALBUQ.). The state is highly religious and poor and highly dependant on military $ ..Los Alamos, Sandia Labs, White Sands......... It is a divided and confused state. New Mexico is generally liberal, however there is a huge infusion of conservatism from the misc. bases and labs.

I ramble..... that section of NM IS decidedly conservative - ranchers needing subsidised grazing, etc.

[alittlelark]

56. Jesus IS a liberal - borderline commie

that's why the religion of the masses had to be subverted by Falwell et al to allow for the capitalist Ayn Rand dream. I was into her for a year or so 'till I came to my senses.

Jesus taught the antithesis of all that we are now hearing from the religious right (=wrong). I think that those of us that left the church years ago did so out of a true sense of moraltity.

What we are seeing is a dramatic shift. I grew up in NM and graduated fom Manzano (ALBUQ.). The state is highly religious and poor and highly dependant on military $ ..Los Alamos, Sandia Labs, White Sands......... It is a divided and confused state. New Mexico is generally liberal, however there is a huge infusion of conservatism from the misc. bases and labs.

I ramble..... that section of NM IS decidedly conservative - ranchers needing subsidised grazing, etc.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

113. You feel strongly on this?

[peacetalksforall]

11. How can someone find out who they were and who

ordered/cajoled them to do this?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

15. Their commander.

<snip>
Suddenly, at 7 a.m., the shouting got dramatically louder. I looked out the front window of the house where I live, next door to the church, and there they were--all 75 of them, standing yards away from my front door, in the street right in front of my house and our church, shouting and screaming to the top of their lungs, “Kill! Kill! Kill!” Their commanders had planted them there and were egging them on.
<snip>
from: The Soldiers At My Front Door by John Dear

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1129-07.htm

John Dear is a Catholic priest, peace activist, lecturer, and former executive director of the Fellowship of Reconciliation. His latest books include “Mohandas Gandhi” (Orbis) and “Mary of Nazareth, Prophet of Peace” (Ave Maria Press). For info, see. www.johndear.org

[markses]

12. I sing of olaf glad and big - e.e. cummings

i sing of Olaf glad and big
whose warmest heart recoiled at war:
a conscientious object-or

his wellbelovid colonel(trig
westpointer most succinctly bred)
took erring Olaf soon in hand;
but--though an host of overjoyed
noncoms(first knocking on the head
him)do through icy waters roll
that helplessness which others stroke
with brushes recently employed
anent this muddy toiletbowl,
while kindred intellects evoke
allegiance per blunt instruments--
Olaf(being to all intents
a corpse and wanting any rag
upon what God unto him gave)
responds,without getting annoyed
"I will not kiss your fucking flag"

straightway the silver bird looked grave
(departing hurriedly to shave)

but--though all kinds of officers
(a yearning nation's blueeyed pride)
their passive prey did kick and curse
until for wear their clarion
voices and boots were much the worse,
and egged the firstclassprivates on
his rectum wickedly to tease
by means of skilfully applied
bayonets roasted hot with heat--
Olaf(upon what were once knees)
does almost ceaselessly repeat
"there is some shit I will not eat"

our president,being of which
assertions duly notified
threw the yellowsonofabitch
into a dungeon,where he died

Christ(of His mercy infinite)
i pray to see;and Olaf,too

preponderatingly because
unless statistics lie he was
more brave than me:more blond than you.

[roguevalley]

17. These bozos are a disgrace to the military and should be court

martialed. That priest is a good man. He's someone
Jesus would stand with, I am sure.

[knight_of_the_star]

16. I am dead sure

That is illegal on so many levels that the commander who organized it could and should be court-martialed then arrested as soon as he gets out. But that won't happen, not with how BUSH is doing things.

[coralrf]

18. This is bullshit...

I doubt it happened like this man said. It would be a gross violation of military law and a gross violation of constitutional law. There is no way that a military "commander" is going to move his troops to harass a civilian. If he did he would be finished. There is no argument here.

This is probably one of those bullshit stories that is about 10% true and 90% wishful thinking.

We are to believe that the long quote was remembered? It is obviously not an extemporaneous remark but a well crafted essay with a purpose. These guys would not have their eyes pop out..why? Because they never would have let this man get a word in. Think about it. The notion that they all silenced and let him rant is ridiculous. They would have gone off on the man.

In time some conservative prick will use the falsehood of this story to discredit the media as liberal. Wait and see. That is why it was fabricated and Pacifica was dumb enough to fall for it. Shit, when will wake up.

Did not happen folks or you would be seeing it all over the place.

[roughsatori]

19. Post a link to a debunking and I will take your response seriously

To be honest with all the hatred of Progressives and left-wing news sources at DU I was waiting for a post like yours: one that just calls the article bogus--but offers not one fact or link to back up the assertion.

Yes, I am sure Fox, MSNBC, and Drudge would be all over this story if it were true. LMAO.

[Minstrel Boy]

21. thanks roughsatori

Sometimes I despair to think DU represents what's left of the Left in America.

[burrowowl]

42. To quote Gore Vidal

..."America has 2 right wings"....
Many do not know what the left is. Pity!

[coralrf]

54. Gore Vidal...?

"I am an obsessive rewriter, doing one draft and then another and another, usually five. In a way, I have nothing to say, but a great deal to add."
Gore Vidal

[coralrf]

49. Nice try....

but there is REASON in my post. If all you want is fact get a text book.

I was in the military and there is simply no way this happened as stated. No alarmed neighbors? No cops at a huge gathering outside a priest’s house?
No Photos..and they would be good ones. An obviously well scripted "quote" long and verbatim recited. A gross breach of military law.

Let’s go further. The military going after a priest? Good for that Christian vote! Soldiers led, in violation of UCMJ law to incite fear into a civilian when all have sworn not to do that. This is a court martial offense. KILL KILL KILL? It is illegal for a citizen to incite violence and doubly so for the military.

Do you believe that an organized military assault on this man was condoned and put into motion by a bunch of careerist like those in the green machine?

Drudge and Newsmax will be all over it. Just as soon as it is well known enough to debunk and make fools of the 'libbies' that mouthed it. There has only been this idiotic post so far..give it time. Pacifica will retract..

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

51. Are we drinking tonight? n/t

[tinanator]

52. interesting

so you have greater faith in Newsmax and Drudge than Pacifica?
NUFF SAID!

[DuctapeFatwa]

57. the US miltary now disappears civilians, tortures people to death,

destroys homes and crops and slaughters zoo animals for fun, all with the smiling approval of the majority of the US voting affluent.

Yelling outside someone's door seems pretty mild. It is unlikely that the neighbors would be outraged, if any stuck their heads out the door I am sure one of the soldiers was able to explain to them that the priest is "with the terrorists."

[Bridget Burke]

94. The "Christian" vote doesn't care about abusing a Priest

I'm speaking here of the self-proclaimed Christians who reject 99% of what Jesus taught. That particular subset of believers is composed of evangelical fundamentalist Protestants who hate Papists.

[tom_paine]

110. You make some good points. We should just wait and see

corroboration would be nice. This is a big story, if true.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

20. Yeah. Just can't trust those fuckin Jesuit Priests and peace

organizations I guess.

I guess everything we need to know can be found on CNN, Faux or MSNBC.

BTW, you say: "The notion that they all silenced and let him rant is ridiculous. They would have gone off on the man."

He says: "Their jaws dropped, their eyeballs popped and they stood in shock and silence, looking steadily at me. Then they burst out laughing. Finally, the commander dismissed them and they left."

Sounds reasonable to me.

[roughsatori]

22. Here is a link to the Jesuit Priest John Dear's site

Those doubting the man may peruse it and see what kind of person his history has shown him to be: http://www.johndear.org/

I believe him.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

25. I checked it out. He's got quite a resume. n/t

[tabasco]

46. The Jesuits conducted the Spanish Inquisition

So maybe you have a point.

[kodi]

63. the Dominicans had the task of running the courts of the Inquisition

and what happen to that priest is shocking. who has the name of that commanding officer?

a disgraceful ewxhibition of hate. the man should be courts marshalledout of the sevice for his actions.

who has the name of that man?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

66. I don't know, but I have an email out to fr Dear and hope to have more

information soon.

[tabasco]

24. Yes, it sounds like mularkey to me.

There are no military installations anywhere near NE New Mexico. This would be seriously punishable conduct for any real military. Perhaps it was some militia, if it happened at all.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

28. No. No Installations at all except Cannon and Walker which both

are in the vicinity he describes.

Why don't you diss phreaks do your homework before you say stuff like that.

[burrowowl]

36. Canon

is in the SE and Walker, where B-36s to carry nukes has been closed for a long time. Also there is Holloman near Almagordo and White Sands Missile Range (proving grounds). Kirkland is in ABQ, next to Sandia Labs (nuke reseach).

[tabasco]

48. NM is a huge state, I lived there for 5 years.

Do you think these people drove hundreds of miles to do something which will get them fired from their jobs and sent to jail. This sounds like MILITIA to me.

[tinanator]

37. not in the job description

talk about making something/body look bad. its hard to know who should be more embarassed, us or you?

on second thought, clearly only those with their wits about them could be properly ashamed, and your work there is well done.

[tabasco]

50. Your insults don't make your position any stronger.

If you think a military unit with a commander present conducted this type of protest, have at it. They would all be discharged and do jail time for this. Please let me know if you agree or disagree, and your experience with military law. Thanks.

[tinanator]

71. riiiiight

they have way too many warm bodies in the service right now, dont they? and those TRAINED KILLERS would NEVER lift a finger or raise a voice under orders against a proven resister. I think you are SEVERELY out of touch with reality.

[tabasco]

45. So these Air Force people (not soldiers) drive from Canon

under fear off certain UCMJ punishment, take their unit out to this guys house and harass him. This doesn't sound like stuff the AF people I know get into.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

61. Did you read the link at Common Dreams with the story?

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1129-07.htm
<snip>
Last week, it was announced that the local National Guard unit for northeastern New Mexico, based in the nearby Armory, was being deployed to Iraq early next year. I was not surprised when yellow ribbons immediately sprang up after the press conference.
<snip>

LOCAL NATIUONAL GUARD

[karlschneider]

30. Did you even bother to read the article? Every podunk town in America

has a National Guard Armory.
:grr:
:eyes:

[tabasco]

47. So these gung-ho military, who would be discharged for this ...

rally to protest this guy's house. I was in the military for ten years and this just doesn't sound plausible. This is a big area for militia people. They are NOT military.

[karlschneider]

64. Were the guys with guns at Kent State "military"?

The military (I was in it too, 35 years ago) is trained to kill people and break things. The military has killed some 10,000 people in Iraq so far, for years has set up psy-ops designed to harrass people. I don't find it that farfetched.

[roughsatori]

32. You are wrong, There is a MI base in NE New Mexico. Close to his home

Here's a link. It is at the bottom. But if you don't believe that do a Google search for yourself. I can not understand how you could post that there are not any--when a simple Google shows there are.

http://www.epcog.org/ep/ep_gen1.htm

[burrowowl]

34. There are

NG in Grants, Gallup, Los Alamos, Santa Fe, Espanola, etc., etc.
And they could have been from anywhere in the State on 'training'.
I have just moved from Roswell, which is scarily right-wingnut, back to ABQ. The NG commander's action don't surprise me in the least bit.

[karlschneider]

41. Here's a link to the Taos paper, closest town of any size to him

http://www.taosnews.com/Current/news.shtml

The story (very last one) is about an upcoming NG activation that seems to correspond with what he described.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

43. Thanks for the link. Good research.

[tabasco]

53. It's also big militia area.

Military people would be discharged for this type of activity. So I'm supposed to believe that this gung-ho military unit, with a commander present, staged this protest. I'm skeptical. But most of the people responding have made up their minds. Critical thinking at its best.

[karlschneider]

59. Is your concept of critical thinking simply to dismiss anything because it

sounds implausible? Excuse me while I fall on the floor and laugh my ass off.
edit: got rid of an extra ssssss
got a bad sssss key on the damn kbd.

[Gingersnap]

111. I don't know whether this is true or not, but if your only reason to doubt

it is that it would be illegal and they'd get in trouble, you are out of touch. No President would openly attack a sovereign country--that's a war crime. He'd get in trouble. The CEO of the largest voting machine company would never say that he will "deliver" the votes to Bush, publicly no less. He could lose his contract.

We live in an upsidedown world.

[Sick of Bullshit]

38. That article from the Taos paper is interesting

National guardsmen from 15 NM communities based in Springer, and leaving for the ME next year.

[0rganism]

62. The ARTICLE itself says National Guard, did you read the linked ARTICLE?

Next time you declare a written piece "sounds" like "mularky" to you, do you think you might do the author the service of reading it first?

"Last week, it was announced that the local National Guard unit for northeastern New Mexico, based in the nearby Armory, was being deployed to Iraq early next year."

It's implicit that the author refers to the National Guard unit in question.

Try again -- http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1129-07.htm

[chasqui]

76. Exactly.

I used to be in the National Guard, and it is entirely plausible that they would do that. I remember one time we went on a 'Batallion Run' through the streets of Madison, Wisconsin. There we were, over a hundred soldiers, running through these VERY LIBERAL neighborhoods, with a flag in the front, etc.
Now, parking your company in front of the house of an activist is not allowable, under any circumstances, in my frame of things. I would have resigned my commission (I am a 1LT, and am now in the IRR) the instant something like this would have popped up in the mind of my commander.
Generally, the preferrable way to interact with the community is to bsaically go door to door and kindly ask them for their patience and understanding while we inconvenience them. That is what I personally did on a couple of ocassions in WI, and things worked beautifully as a result.
Of course, shouting 'Kill, Kill, Kill' is as reprehensible as it comes. I am shocked at this, actually - this is the sort of thing they do INSIDE army posts, if that. The Post Commander might frown on this sort of disruption, you see.

[tinanator]

26. how many ignorant unsubstantiated conclusions can you jump to?

Im outta fingers and toes Mr media critic.

[karlschneider]

27. Well, I'm not so sure...did a little googling on the fellow,

http://www.aas.duke.edu/news/alumni/dear.php

Do you propose he just made up the story?

[peacetalksforall]

29. Yeah, I guess a Catholic priest-activist for non-killing could lie

and embellish just like our crowned and robed one in Midland.

I sure hope this story has legs and the right people are interested. Let's see, I think I'll side with the priest, just for the fun of it - 'cuz I wouldn't be surprised it is was true.

As more people are finally finding that they've been lied to, the blind patriotic misguided people killing war lovers are going to lash out at those who love our country and do speak out.

I'm going now to check out this priests peace efforts. Thanks for posting this.

[Matilda]

Fr. John Dear has a good reputation in the peace movement.

He's been active for many years, has been to trouble spots all over
the developing world, and been jailed many times for his efforts.

He took as his role model Fr. Daniel Berrigan, one of the famous
Berrigan Brothers of Anti-Vietnam protests, and two of the
"Catonsville Nine". Fr. Berrigan, now in his eighties, is still
active in the peace movement, and he and Fr. Dear were both arrested
about two years ago for demonstrating in New York against the
bombing of Iraq, long before it was taken up as a popular cause.

If he says it happened, I believe it happend, without a doubt.

[tabasco]

58. He's probably not lying, but he might be calling militia types "soldiers"

and all the anti-military types make the assumption they are military. Militias are not military. They are wannabes and idiots. Military members would be severely punished for this type of act. Is it reasonable to believe all these military people jeopardize their carrer to stage a protest.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

68. Again. From the story.

<snip>
Last week, it was announced that the local National Guard unit for northeastern New Mexico, based in the nearby Armory, was being deployed to Iraq early next year. I was not surprised when yellow ribbons immediately sprang up after the press conference.
<snip>

Later, military officials spread lies around town that I had disrupted their military exercises at the Armory, so they decided to come to my house and to the church in retaliation. Others appealed to the archbishop to have me kicked out of New Mexico for denouncing their warmaking. Then, a general called the mayor and asked him to mediate “negotiations” with me, saying he did not want the military “in confrontation” with the church. Really, the mayor told me, they fear that I will disrupt the gala send-off next month, just before Christmas, when the soldiers go to Iraq.
<snip>

I don't think there was any mistake made here between militia and military.

[jonoboy]

35. what you say is logical but anything can happen these days

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

39. You ask: "We are to believe that the long quote was remembered?"

and continue: "It is obviously not an extemporaneous remark but a well crafted essay with a purpose."

The man is a professional speaker and peace activist in addition to being a pastor accustomed to speaking to groups. He had plenty of time to construct a single paragraph that was probably a compilation of things he said at prior peace rallies.

[tinanator]

40. I would call it speaking from the heart

which, of course, requires one.

[Turley]

74. Sounds like they were singing cadence during morning PT

There's nothing unusual about singing cadence with violent lyrics during a formation run. That's fairly standard. Depending on the NCO you sometimes hear some pretty raunchy lyrics but not when there are females in the formation.

What you're not supposed to do is sing cadence in residential areas. I just wonder if this cat lives right next door to the armory (in which case he'd probably just have to deal with troops singing in the am). Like you, I think his story doesn't pass the smell test. Particularly the bit about the entire formation being silenced with dropped jaws. Sorry, but no way in hell something like that happened.

I generally agree that no one with any sense would risk his career by pulling such a stunt. OTOH I've known some officers who were pretty big idiots, so, you never know.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

79. From the article:

He says: "Their jaws dropped, their eyeballs popped and they stood in shock and silence, looking steadily at me. Then they burst out laughing. Finally, the commander dismissed them and they left."

Sounds reasonable to me. Some Priest comes running up to your formation ranting, you would be surprised. You might be silenced for a moment before bursting out with laughter or taunts.

Do a little research on the author. He's written or edited over 30 books and has been involved in the higher eschelons of the peace movement for quite a while.

[Turley]

80. Well I kinda know what you mean

If a priest ran up to a formation at the armory and began a lecture I suppose they might react that way temporarily. But if, as the Priest claims, they specifically came to his house to harras him at 0-dark-thirty, theres no way he'd get a word in edgewise. That's why I find his story so suspect.

On edit: Another thing about his story which doesn't pass the smell test is that the OIC or NCOIC would dismiss the formation in the middle of a residential street and let the soldiers engage in a mass gaggle on their way back to the armory. Sorry, but that's not how the Army works. my guess is, the event happened closer to the armory than it did to this guy's house. If he was insulted by the violent lyrics that's one thing, but his claims that they wre directed directly at him don't ring true IMO.

[kayell]

81. I find that very plausible

When a large mob of angry people gather like that with the intention of intimidating someone, the last thing they expect is for their victim to face them down. Here are all these NG in this guys yard, picturing him cowering in the face of their taunts...And then he walks out in front of them.

That forces them to 1. See him as a human being, rather than a symbol of a peacenik. 2. Confront for themselves whether they want to take their action to the next level of mob violence.

I think being confronted by a priest under those circumstances would make most people pause.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

83. Because of the nature of the story, coupled with questions like yours

I (and several others) ended up doing a lot of research on the individual involved. Go check out his resume. Check out his web site. All the links are in previous posts.

Read the complete report as well.
You write: "Another thing about his story which doesn't pass the smell test is that the OIC or NCOIC would dismiss the formation in the middle of a residential street and let the soldiers engage in a mass gaggle on their way back to the armory."

From the story:
<snip>
Suddenly, at 7 a.m., the shouting got dramatically louder. I looked out the front window of the house where I live, next door to the church, and there they were--all 75 of them, standing yards away from my front door, in the street right in front of my house and our church, shouting and screaming to the top of their lungs, “Kill! Kill! Kill!” Their commanders had planted them there and were egging them on.

I was astonished and appalled. I suddenly realized that I do not need to go to Iraq; the war had come to my front door. Later, I heard that they had deliberately decided to do their exercises in front of my house and our church because of my outspoken opposition to the war. They wanted to put me in my place.
<snip>

What you are saying "doesn't pass the smell test" didn't happen.


IMHO, the story floats.

[tom_paine]

95. Would that be seeing the story all over the place like the Lori Klausutis

story?

No no no, I know....seeing it all over the place like the Florida 2000 DBT Choicepoint disenfranchisement story?

No no no, I know....seeing it all over the place like the "spontaneous" Brooks Brothers Florida 2000 mob was really paid Bush operatives, and aides?

No no no, I know....seeing it all over the place like the investigation into Bunnypants* Harken $848,000 stock dump, just like Martha Stewart is being indicted for but 20 times more $$$$?

(etc. etc. etc.)

Puh-LEEZE! The most tired argument in the rapidly Sovietizing (Free-Market Sovietizing, though, so I guess it's ok) Imperial Amerika is "Did not happen folks or you would be seeing it all over the place."

Knowing what we now know about media control and lies, I'm not sure it was EVER true, but it damned sure isn't even remotely true now.

[goforit]

105. Send it to CBS and see what 60 minutes would say!....Big Story!!!!

Unbelievable if true!!!

[goforit]

23. Shame on those zombie facists!!!!

Bush likes to play hardball , eh?...

[jonoboy]

33. wish he had taken a video or pics..would have gone worldwide

[ignatius]

44. I don't know why some find this hard to believe. Remember the

demonstrations last week at the School of the Americas when ear-spliiting music was piped out of giant speakers, the demonstrations in Miami last week when the cops started whacking people in the gut and the demonstrations last summer in Seattle when rubber bullets were shot at protesters.

I recently read that the "zones" for protestors wil be a mile away from the pResident and only pro-Bushites are allowed inside that zone.

This is NOT the America we all know and love. This is a right wing hell, one spit away from brown shirts and heil King George salutes.

[pepsi]

67. This is interesting...

Maybe Rummy holds grudges...

“Don’t Bomb Iraq!”
BY JOHN DEAR
Speech at the Rally (with 2500 people) outside Donald Rumsfield’s House,

Taos, New Mexico,October 26, 2002.

Dear friends, I’ve just moved here from New York City where I worked for the Red Cross after September 11th at the Family Assistance Center, helping to coordinate over 500 chaplains, and counseling over 1500 grieving relatives and hundreds of rescue workers at Ground Zero. Many of them said to me and the other chaplains, in their midst of their tears, that they did not want anyone else killed; that war will not bring back their loved ones; that bombing raids on Afghanistan or Iraq will not bring them comfort or healing or protection; that killing innocent women and children in Afghanistan and Iraq only increases their sorrow. So I come here today to say with you: Don’t bomb Iraq! Don’t kill the children of Iraq! Don’t use terrorism to stop terrorism!
http://www.johndear.org/

[Gman]

72. As a Catholic...

I'll take the gay marriage and abortion threats to politicians from those that assume to represent the church seriously when I see the church just as adament against the war as the Pope is. I'd also like to see the church just as serious about social justice and non-violence.

I'll also turn blue waiting 'cause it ain't gonna happen because the RW is also using the church in it's crusades which, IMHO, greatly diminishes the moral authority of the church.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

75. holy crapola!...NAZISM for sure...disgusting..shades of things to come

darkness and the big nothing approaching...can ya hear it?

neverending story

[JNelson6563]

77. A real Christian!

How refreshing!

How shameful that he was treated so terribly. As an atheist I would gladly stand with this priest. I'd be honored.

Julie

[sam7]

84. If this were true

the mainstream media would be all over this like stink on shit. The good priest is bullshitting somebody, but not me. Even his name sounds bogus.

[truthisfreedom]

85. 7 posts and you are already a disbeliever.

incredible. so what's your political afflilation?

http://www.fatherjohndear.org/

[sam7]

87. Yes, a disbeleiver

So the more you post the smarter you get? I'll have to try that.

"so what's your political afflilation?"

Democrat. Only one that's not so dumb as to beieve pure BS when I see it. I'm also not the only one on this thread who doesn't beleiev this. Can you not see that this would be ALL OVER the place if there was a shred of plausability to it?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

92. Sam, you still haven't backed up your comments with anything...

are you okay? Just worrying because I'm sure that with such a strong opinion as yours that you must have some sort of reasoning behind it.

Or was that just some sort of conditioned ejaculatory response?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

86. Thanks for the eloquent repartee. Would you care to elucidate your

opinion so I might proffer a rebuttal?

To continue this debate, I offer his resume:

Rev. John Dear, S.J. is a Jesuit priest, pastor, peace activist, organizer, lecturer, retreat leader, and the author/editor of 20 books on peace and justice, including LIVING PEACE, published by Doubleday in 2001, and MOHANDAS GANDHI: ESSENTIAL WRITINGS, published by Orbis Books in 2002 and "Mary of Nazareth, Prophet of Peace" published by Ave Maria Press in 2003.

From 1998 until December 2000, he served as the executive director of the Fellowship of Reconciliation, the largest interfaith peace organization in the United States. He has also worked in homeless shelters, soup kitchens, and community centers around the country; traveled in warzones around the world, including most recently Iraq and Palestine; lived in El Salvador, Guatemala and Northern Ireland; been arrested over 75 times in acts of civil disobedience; and spent nearly a year in prison for a Plowshares disarmament action. John currently lives in northeastern New Mexico where he is the pastor of churches in Cimarron, Springer, Maxwell, Tinaja, Reyado, and Paolo Blanco.

After the September 11th, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center, John Dear began volunteering as a Red Cross Chaplain, and became one of the coordinators of the whole chaplain program. He worked with some 1,500 family members who lost loved ones, as well as hundreds of firefighters and police officers, while at the same time, he spoke out against the U.S. bombing of Afghanistan.

A longtime practitioner and teacher of nonviolence, John Dear has written hundreds of articles and given hundreds of talks on nonviolence. Some of his other books include: Jesus the Rebel; Peace Behind Bars: A Journal from Jail; The God of Peace: Toward a Theology of Nonviolence; Disarming the Heart: Toward a Vow of Nonviolence; The Sound of Listening; The Sacrament of Civil Disobedience; Seeds of Nonviolence; Our God Is Nonviolent: Witnesses in the Struggle for Peace and Justice; and Oscar Romero and the Nonviolent Struggle for Justice.

He has edited: The Road to Peace: Writings on Peace and Justice by Henri Nouwen; And the Risen Bread: The Selected Poems of Daniel Berrigan, 1957-1997; and The Vision of Peace: Faith and Hope in Northern Ireland: The Writings of Nobel Laureate Mairead Maguire.

Fr. John Dear's work for peace has taken him to El Salvador, where he lived and worked in a refugee camp in 1985; to Guatemala, Nicaragua, Haiti, the Middle East, and the Philipines; to Northern Ireland where he lived and worked at a human rights center for a year; and to Iraq, where he led a delegation of Nobel Peace Prize winners to witness the effects of the deadly sanctions on Iraqi children. He has run a shelter for the homeless in Washington, DC; and served as Executive Director of the Sacred Heart Center, a community center for disenfranchized women and children in Richmond, Virginia.

A native of North Carolina, John Dear was arrested on December 7, 1993 at the Seymour Johnson Air Force Base in Goldsboro, North Carolina for hammering on an F15 nuclear fighter bomber in an effort to "beat swords in plowshares," according to the biblical vision of the prophet Isaiah. Along with activist Philip Berrigan, he spent eight months in North Carolina county jails. Dear has been arrested over seventy-five times in acts of nonviolent civil disobedience for peace, and has organized hundreds of demonstrations against war and nuclear weapons at military bases across the country, as well as worked with Mother Theresa and others to stop the death penalty.

He has two masters degrees in theology from the Graduate Theological Union in California.
http://www.fatherjohndear.org/

If you would care to research the veracity of your claims online, here's the link to a Google of Fr. John Dear: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Fr%2E+John+Dear There's only 191,000 hits, so I'm sure it won't take long for you to peruse the highlights.


Peace
:toast:

[thebigidea]

91. as opposed to your name, huh?

[Tinoire]

109. As does yours

Gee, 7 posts and already disabled your profile. Let me guess- returning visitor?

[Malva Zebrina]

88. I have no reason to disbelieve the Jesuit

what motivation can he possibly have to lie about this? To sell more books? To win? Win what? Keep his job? LOL

I believe him. I also believe that the troops are being brainwashed to perform in this way, handed out drugs to keep them going and to keep them in a state of hyperexcitment and better equipped to stand up against the enemy--whoever that is--anyone Bush tells them is a threat, I guess. This chanting reeks of the hyperexcitement of the Somali fighters who were chewing on an an herb containing an amphetamine like quality, called "Khat" to keep them in a state of excessive , acute "kill" mentality.

I have no reason to disbelieve this account by this pacifist priest.

I would like very much to meet him--and I am an atheist.

[ElementaryPenguin]

90. Yikes! Sounding more like a friggin' Nazi nation every day, or what?

:puke:

Haven't had a good puke for awhile! Felt kinda good - letting it out.

[Robin Hood]

96. I bet that those Nazi bastards consider themselves good Christians.

Americans are crass and stupid.

[banana republican]

97. this sounds

like a lot of the "marching songs that have been used in the army for years.

"Swing your guns from left to right; we can kill those guys all night"

It is sung in cadence, so every one keeps in step and no one is walking on someone elses feet. most of those songs are pretty gross but it helps to indoctrinate the troups...

I can sure understand how easy it would be for a drill sargent or officer to stop the troups there and say "I can't hear you".....

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

98. If you read the entire story, it's obvious that this was more than

a brief stop in the marching.

[banana republican]

112. I agree with you

it does not sound like a brief stop...

and I find it to be *very* intimidating.

If this was in Washington State the person in charge could be tried for malicious harassment a felony.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

101. Email Fm John Dear:

(I had asked about charges being filed against the CO. There were other items as well. I'm only including the paragraph relevant to another question I said I would get an answer to - BP)

Dear Robert,
Thanks for writing and for your support,
and for all you do for peace.
No, there are no charges, and I'm not going to pursue it,
but I have heard confidentially that in fact they were
deliberately targetting me.
<snip>

[Just Me]

102. "Peace" requires publicity,...

,...although I appreciate his humble ties,...word of being deliberately targeted or otherwise must reach the public(ity),...that is the way of our world,...

Everyone must be accountable for his/her actions,...otherwise, repentence and growth isn't even a possibility.

[leanings]

118. Awfully convenient. n/t

[diamond14]

107. write to Father John Dear's BOSS...(link) to let him know that you

fully support 'thou shall NOT kill' approach....

Father Dear's boss is Archbishop Michael Sheehan, link to the Archdiocese at at bottom of the Archdiocese web page here...and BTW, you don't need to be Catholic to email the Archbiship, but please try to be polite...
http://www.archdiocesesantafe.org/

send an email with your support for Father John Dear's brave stand to

Archbiship Michael Sheehan (in care of the Chancellor)
[e-mail]



and wherever, you live....why not email the wonderful 'Common Dreams' article about the BRAVE parish priest...and ask your local archdiocese or parish to support the stand on 'thou shall NOT kill'??? this will certainly help awareness, you don't need to be Catholic to write....

and here's the link to all Catholic Churches in America, by State...just click on any State....remember, the Pope was real against this Iraq war...

http://www.usccb.org/state.htm

[diamond14]

108. send article to ALL USA Catholic Churches and ask them to join

the 'Thou shall NOT kill' movement....and you don't need to be a Catholic to write to the Church leaders in YOUR State or YOUR city

and here's the link to all Catholic Churches in America, by State...just click on any State....a entire organization ready to spread Father John Dear's message, if DUers only help a little to push the message along....
http://www.usccb.org/state.htm



some Catholic Churches are being awful quiet about the KILLING....

but other Churches are STRONG ...like the Archdiocese of Detroit, which sent many many bus loads of Catholics to Anti-War Protests here is DC...Detroit Archbiship Gumbleton is a major sponsor of the A.N.S.W.E.R marches....the Pope sent his Ambassador (the Vatican is a country with it's own Ambassador to the United States)...and the Pope's message to bush* was 'you go to Iraq, and you go WITHOUT God"

[Judi Lynn]

114. Thanks for posting this article, and attending the thread.

I can't imagine why anyone would want to try to claim it's bogus.

You don't have to be terribly bright to know what people are capable of doing to people they consider different from themselves. If anyone's confused about it, there are enough libraries to keep him/her busy for a long time, in case he can't evaluate the evidence of his/her own eyes in everyday life.

The priest represented authority, and the church, not just some yahoo howling in the wind. I'm sure the men WILL remember his maturity, and his conviction for years to come. I surely would, in their shoes.

I've seen ENOUGH good people in my life who would ALSO do as he did to know how bankrupt a poster would have to be to claim this couldn't happen.

[tinanator]

116. well done

it seems it takes more than the internet to open peoples eyes to reality. Kind of hard to wish on anyone in a way.

[leanings]

117. Ah, yes, the Plowshares folks

I had the pleasure of helping to arrest four Trident Plowshares activists in England during the bombing of Kosovo in '99. They hopped the fence and ran towards uploaded B-52's being prepped to take off on a run. We got in front of them before they were 50 yards past the fence and apprehended them. No violence, they were pretty compliant, altho obnoxious. I'm glad I took the advice of the MOD police and wore rubber gloves when we cuffed them; two of them turned out to have hepatitis. They proved themselves liars as well; the next day they released a statement claiming they'd been climbing around on the bombers for half an hour before we got them, hanging signs all over them and covering them with red paint. They never got within 25 yards of the aircraft.

I seriously doubt this happened. I can't imagine a CO putting his soldiers (75 of them? Odd number. Not a platoon, not a company...maybe they just brought one for every time he'd been arrested)in formation in front of a private residence and having them chant slogans. I guess we'll see, tho, because if this really did go down there must be witnesses, right? The good Father John will, of course, report this incident to the proper authorities, right? The folks of his caliber I'm familiar with have no qualms using the courts and other channels to bring attention to wrongs committed against them. There should at least be an article in some local paper, huh? Awfully pat ending, too; the soldiers immediately shut up when he comes out of the door, he delivers his eloquent speech, they take a moment to reflect upon it, en masse, and then simultaneously break into derisive laughter and are dismissed by their CO. Not marched away, mind you. "Dis-Smissed" and the formation breaks apart. Presumably they all just wandered off in seperate directions, patting each other on the back for a hippy well terrorized. Awful pat, almost storybook ending.

I think it's far more likely that these troops ran by this guy's house, or thru his town, chanting cadences and he was so disturbed by it that he felt the need to invent this story. Now, it's not out of the realm of possibility that this occurred, and if it did I hope this CO is seriously reamed for it and loses his command. It's just a highly, highly dubious scenario. I'll await the further evidence that will surely be forthcoming should this pan out to be the truth.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

119. Leanings, the fact that you enjoy arresting protesters,,,

"I had the pleasure of helping to arrest four Trident Plowshares activists in England"

already tells me where your heart is. In the 60's and 70's we called people like that "pigs."

Look, if you enjoy the idescriminant killing of other human beings, go find somewhere else to pull the wings off of flies.

As to the rest of your objections of the report, if you will read the thread and attached links, it has been established that this did, in fact, happen.

On edit, after doing a search of your posts, it's pretty obvious that you like the science of killing people. And that you are pretty "gung ho" on the idea of guns.

Do me a favor and put me on ignore, I'd rather not have anything to do with you or your ilk.

[leanings]

120. You don't call people "like that" pigs anymore, just in the 70's?

I don't mind protest or protesters one bit. In fact, it really makes me feel good about this country to see people express themselves and there opinions, and it angers me when someone attempts to limit or stifle that expression.

Trespassing on an active duty military base during wartime and attempting to damage equipment that people bet their lives on is not "protest". It's a crime. And when I was employed as a "pig", as you so succintly put it, they put both me and themselves in a position where one or both of us could easily have been hurt. Yes, I did enjoy arresting them, because I stopped them from doing something I considered wrong and dangerous. They feel differently. That's fine, as they seem to have no problems dealing with the consequences of their decisions. I know you can't make the distinction, but just because I've chosen to take up war as a profession doesn't mean that I enjoy hurting people. I'd venture to guess that you are unable to internalize that because you've never really seen people get hurt.

The links that go along with the story are nothing more than interviews with Father John, unless I've missed something. I certainly didn't see any independent confirmation and you've failed entirely to address any of the questions in my post. And however sympathetic you may be to the Plowshares and such folk, I've seen them LIE with my own eyes before. If you'd like to provides some other supporting evidence, please do so. And if you'd like to put your head in the sand and not address it or otherwise have anything to do with my "ilk", feel free to put ME on ignore, as YOU'RE the one that seems to have the problem.