Illinois Woman's ER Wait Death Ruled Homicide

[WhiteTara]

so take that you scummy for profit hospital pigs!
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Health/story?id=2454685&page=1



Sept. 17, 2006 — In July, forty-nine-year old Beatrice Vance arrived in the Vista Medical Center Emergency Room in Lake County, Ill., complaining of nausea, shortness of breath and chest pains.

A nurse saw her briefly and told her to wait. But two hours later, when her name was finally called, the staff found Vance slumped in a chair, already dead.

"Ms. Vance had the classic symptoms of a heart attack," said Dr. Richard Keller, coroner of Lake County, Ill. "She should have been in the emergency department much quicker and received the care that we have in modern medicine."

In a startling decision, a coroner's jury investigating the case ruled that her death was a homicide, which opens the door for criminal prosecution.

"The definition of homicide that I give to the jury is either a willful and wanton act or recklessness on the part of someone, whether that's by their actions or by their inactions," Keller said. "Certainly, by that definition, this is a homicide

[bluestateguy]

1. Somebody's got to go to prison

nt

[NOLADEM]

47. ABSOLUTELY

My brother was having a potentially fatal reaction to a medication, and I rushed him to a Hospital in Mississippi, and we were treated with such wanton neglect, I was forced to drive him an hour and a half at 3:00 am to a hospital without demons running the ER.

Our healthcare system in this country is shameful for what we pay.

Prosecute them...they will respond.

[liberalhistorian]

79. "Demons running the ER" is absolutely

correct. The first, main and only concern of the vast majority of ER's I've been to is insurance or method of payment. You could be dying or bleeding to death right in front of them, and they'd still ask what insurance you have, or how you intend to pay if you don't have it. I've seen and experienced it far too many times.

And hospitals are now in the top five of the most aggressive industries when it comes to collections, taking the assets of even the poorest patients, slapping liens on houses then filing for foreclosure, etc., etc., even requesting "body attachments" for unpaid hospital bills, which means you're actually arrested and jailed for failure to pay. The Wall Street Journal, of all papers, had an excellent expose of this a couple of years ago. And this is happening in even the so-called "non-profit" hospitals, and it's predominantly against those without insurance since hospitals charge them far more than insureds for the same services.

I LOVE dealing with medical debt collectrolls over the phone. I'm a paralegal who knows the Fair Debt Collection Act and the Fair Credit Reporting Act up and down, inside and out, and I know my rights and what they can and cannot do. They don't like dealing with people who actually know their rights, that's for damn sure. I love fucking with them when they threaten to do something that I damn well know they cannot do. I asked one of them one time, when they started lecturing me on the "irresponsibility of not paying medical providers" if I should have just stayed at home and died of the pneumonia I was diagnosed with after a trip to the emergency room? I had insurance at the time and the bill was still astronomical.

For a four hour stay in the ER, it was several thousand dollars, of which my insurance paid about $2,500. How the collectroll expected me to immediately come up with the other three thousand when it was more than my entire monthly income at the time, I don't fucking know. Then again, I'm not a bloodsucking vulture living off the misery and misfortune of others like they are. I told them my insurance had damn well paid enough and that I simply didn't have the rest.

When she started to get huffy and started in on the "irresponsibility" bullshit again, I asked again if it would have been better if I had just stayed at home, continued to cough up pieces of my lungs, and died of pneumonia, even though I was the single mother of a young son. I've had to run interference for my parents with the damned collectrolls, especially medical ones, as well; I enjoy every minute of it because my parents are far more bothered and scared by them than I am and they prey off of that. Fucking slime motherfuckers, every last one of them.

Don't even get me started on this, my pet subject, or I'll never get off the computer, lol!

[susanna]

90. I, personally, would love to hear more....

...simply because I would like to know what they can and cannot do! Seriously - have you thought about writing a pamphlet or something to help people understand the ins and outs of health care and collections? You would probably want to work with a lawyer or something to cover your bases, but that sure would be a great service to people who get scared and have no one to turn to.

[liberalhistorian]

97. PM me with any questions and I'll try to answer them if I can.

All Americans should know at least the basics of the Fair Debt Collection Act and the Fair Credit Reporting Act and what collectors can and cannot do. When I got my paralegal certificate, a couple of my instructors told me about openings in local collection agencies and said I should apply for them. I told them no fucking way would I ever use my training in such a way, to fuck people over all day. And I still won't.

[susanna]

99. And you shouldn't.

I think it is just interesting that so many people do NOT know what health care companies can and cannot do...it really boggles the mind. I might PM you yet - I have a couple of questions at least. :-)

[proud2BlibKansan]

92. My husband was injured at work in July

and was hospitalized for 6 days. The collectrolls are on us. We have no home phone anymore so they can't call (but I halfway expect them to find his cell phone number eventually). We are getting bills every day, from the ER, the docs and the hospital. I want to ask them which part of WORKMAN'S COMP they don't understand. It is unreal how much each of these bills are and unbelievable they would bill him and expect him to pay.

Here's the best part - the workman's comp insurance carrier has already paid these bills. Can you say PREDATOR?

Health care really sucks in this country.

[liberalhistorian]

96. I'm a paralegal who knows this kind of

stuff inside and out, so PM me if you need some help and I'll be glad to see what I can do. First of all, you can write to the collectors and advise them to stop contacting you by phone or mail, and they are legally obligated to comply. The request must be in writing and should be sent via certified mail, otherwise they can simply claim they never received it and they will do such a thing, rest assured of that. And it must be done for each creditor, you can't just send a blanket letter. That's one of the problems, they know that it's time-consuming and exhausting for people to do that. I've helped friends and family members for years with that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. Thanks!

We have chosen not to worry about it since the bills are paid. Hubby takes them to work and gives them to the risk management lady and she has contacted the insurance company.

It just amazes me that these bills are being sent to him, since they have been paid already. Talk about dishonest.

But I will PM you if he has any more problems. Thanks!! :)

[havocmom]

2. Astounding that ER staff write off complaints of a woman as 'can wait'

when they recognize same symptoms in men as possible heart attack and get moving. One would hope medical care professionals would be aware that women have heart attacks too.

And many women have different symptoms from most men with heart attacks. Those can really get overlooked.

Then, the medical world wonders why women's heart disease is so far advanced when it is first diagnoses. Jeepers, ya think they might be missing it early in a lot of the females? :grr:

[azurnoir]

32. This does not excuse what happened at all

however in recent years there has been much teaching in the medical community about heart attack symptoms beaning different in women as though it is the rule, in women pain in the lower jaw is usually the first thing looked for.

[havocmom]

40. Did I say it excused anything?

No, I didn't. Quite the contrary.

[azurnoir]

42. Sorry maybe I was not

clear "does not excuse" was referring to my comment. To belabor it-until recently many women having heart attacks died because their symptoms were mistaken as dental problems, the jaw pain is easily mistaken for a tooth ache. The problem is that as with many things in this society there seems no happy medium and medical personal are being taught that heart attack symptoms are radically different in women as compared to men. This is true in maybe 70% of cases, but not always as we've seen here. The symptoms that in most cases say heart attack in men mean acid reflux in women. Note I said but certainly not all, when dealing with humans the first thing to keep in mind is that 100% doesn't apply, except to need for oxygen.

[badgerpup]

43. JMHO...and only got as far as CNA...

...but one would think that Chest pains and shortness of breath would throw up at least some red flags no matter what sex you happen to be.
At least that's what they taught me in my first aid classes...
:wtf:

[havocmom]

45. One would think. Sadly, not what one better count on.

If you are female and have chest pains, drag along a friend to advocate for you, loudly and immediately. For some reason, too many people do not consider heart attacks hitting female type humans. :shurg:

[liberalhistorian]

80. I would wager that she also either didn't have insurance

or much money to pay, thus was relegated to the back burner. Seen it happen far too many times. And the first thing the damn ER gatekeepers ask about now is insurance and money, even if you're very obviously too ill to move or if you're bleeding to death in front of them. They don't give a shit anymore if you don't have money or decent insurance, and they damn well let you know that.

[liberalhistorian]

76. And it doesn't help that the vast

majority of medical studies regarding heart disease and treatments are done on men, with little to no consideration being given to the very real gender differences in symptoms, manifestations and treatment responses.

[merh]

3. Oh, there must be some mistake, according to the right

everyone is entitled to care, this sort of thing doesn't happen. It must be the woman's fault, she didn't complain enough, she didn't pull herself up by her bootstraps and demand that they see her before she died. She must have let it happend. :cry:

:cry:

[azurnoir]

33. Unfortunately you could in a way be partially right.

In some overcrowded ER situations he/she that sits quietly and patiently and is stoic gets ignored, while those who moan, and make beening in pain obvious even overly so get care a bit more quickly.

[moondust]

37. True.

If a patient does not verbally express serious symptoms to the triage nurse and does not externally appear to be in severe distress then there is no reason to suspect the worst.

[liberalhistorian]

81. That's bullshit! The nurses and medical staff are

the ones who are trained to notice signs of distress and illness whether patients exhibit them or not. And if you're too sick to make a fuss, what then? I've been ill enough where I was just too damn sick to move or make any noise, it's up to the TRAINED medical personnel who are (supposedly) trained to notice things like that.

[moondust]

102. No, that is pure bullshit.

You want them to use telepathy or their x-ray vision?

Don't drop your ignorant BULLSHIT on my post.

YOU DO NOT HAVE THE SLIGHTEST IDEA WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THIS WOMAN APPROACHED TRIAGE. ALL YOU HAVE IS SOME SORT OF BUILT-UP HOSTILITY, PREJUDICE, AND HATE. I SUGGEST YOU GROW UP OR SEE A SHRINK.

[dionysus]

108. projecting much, tool?

[liberalhistorian]

109. LOL!

I have every idea of what goes on because I've seen and experienced it firsthand, as well as having had clients who've done so and having accompanied friends and family members into the ER jungle. The medical personnel are the ones who are supposed to be TRAINED to recognize signs of serious illness when the patient is unable to express themselves fully. No one is asking them to read minds or have x-ray vision or to be superhuman, but to use their damned training.

I was very ill with pneumonia in the ER a few years ago, too sick to move or make much noise except to indicate that it hurt like hell to even try to breathe. To no avail, as it was a long time before I was even seen by a nurse. Lucky for them I was young and in pretty good health so that the loss of those hours waiting instead of receiving treatment for what turned out to be a serious case of pneumonia didn't cause too many problems.

So, don't jump up and down and scream and yell at me like a little child, it ain't my fault I'm telling it like it is. If you don't like it, then try to change it. Medical personnel are not gods, they do not deserve automatic hero worship.

[merh]

50. should I ever have symptoms of a heart attack such as she

had, I think I will cut my hand or something, there must be nasty blood to get attention.

Actually, when I was 19 I was ignored in the ER when I had a serious throat infection and I couldn't talk and could hardly breath. If not for my mother's vocal protests, I may well have suffocated before I was seen, the nurse said I had no broken bones or bleeding so I wasn't a priority.

[azurnoir]

52. Had something similar happen to me once

a tooth extraction gone bad,when I came in the the ER the left side of my face was a little swollen and sore, no fever, little bit of redness, I was not priority. After a couple of hours I was brought to a cubicle in back and left to sit for 4 more hours. A few of the nurses going by mentioned I looked like I might be getting worse, when a doctor finally got around to ordering an x-ray about 6 hours after my arrival I got to look in a mirror, the left side of my face had swollen to about 4 times normal and turned black, I wound up in hospital for 10 days on IV anti-biotics.

[merh]

53. You should have split your lip

the blood would have gotten their attention. :crazy:

I'm glad things worked out for you. :hi:

[Solon]

88. Not always true, see post 86. n/t

[MGD]

55. ABC's are the order of priority in any triage situation:

That's airway, breathing, and circulation. An impaired airway should take precedence over any and all other emergency situations.

[MissMillie]

63. I took a First Aid course 20 years ago: chest pain and shortness of breath

HELLO!!!!!!!

Wait a minute here....



CHEST PAIN AND SHORTNESS OF BREATH!!!!!

[pooja]

4. Ok, so who is the murder.? The nurse who was probably overswamped

and trying to weed out the patience in a triage setting. Also, a lot of people with chest pains will say to the dr.s or nurses, "oh, its probably nothing, I just want to make sure nothing is wrong". So, nurse walks away thinking it could just be heartburn.

Or do you put the hospital administrationt on trial for not adequately providing "good services".

Do you put the deans on trial that trained the nurse in the first place for not recognizing the signs well enough?

Do you put the training nurse on trial because she didn't adequately train the emergency room nurses?

Who do you take? The woman's family is deffinately entitled to compensation due to lack of care at the hospital facility. But how much? If she was having a heart attack would she have survived anyway? How many more years did this woman have? And what factors lead to to this woman having a heart attack? Was she a smoker? Did she eat badly? Who was the initial cause of the heart attack? A snack company? A cigarette company? We are not God. We cannot play God. We can try to train and do the very best that we can with helping sick people. But many sick people get that way by not taking care of themselves in the first place.

and no I'm not a nurse or dr or even in the medical field. I just believe that a person is responsible for themselves. (unless they are a child). Since learning so much about the FDA and their poisoning of the United States, I have endeavored to make my family as healthy food wise and supplement wise as I can. I want my children armed with the knowledge of healthy living. And my 2 yr old enjoys eating a salad more than he enjoys eating at McDonald's. He prefers tomatos to chips. He prefers water to every other drink. So, he is already getting the training that he needs to know how to live healthy. Hopefully, this will pass onto many generations of my family to come. Children learn how to live from their parents. If you want them to be healthy in life, you must choose to live healthy as well.

[WhiteTara]

5. door number two

put the hospital administration on trial for not adequately providing "good services".

When the bottom line is profit, good services go out the window.

oops wrong door

[liberalhistorian]

82. AMEN!

That is EXACTLY who is to blame, the damned "administration" and the vastly overpaid management staff whose first, main and only concern is profit. Nice and fat and constant profit. Three words that should NEVER go together are "for-profit hospital." Or "for-profit medicine" for that matter. Unfortunately, the insurance and pharmaceutical industries have everything to say about that, having taken over American medicine many years ago.

[Hepburn]

103. I totally agree...

...the buck in this case IMO stops with the hospital Admin and how he/she staffed the ER and the instructions given on "job duties." If the Admin knowingly created a situation dangerous to health and safety wherein a death could occur...then let him/her suffer the criminal consequences. If insurance rather than patient care was the priority in the ER, then the result was foreseeable.

[Warpy]

7. Sorry, but lifestyle choices, no matter how foolish

are not worthy of a death sentence.

This is a very clear cut case of negligence.

See my post lower down for some of the things that might have caused this woman's death by neglect.

And remember that YOU are right now making some choices that will be seen years from now as stupid choices. Do you want young and healthy people to condemn you to death for them?

Besides, most heart disease is genetic. Bad lifestyle choices just make it happen sooner. Good lifestyle choices make it happen when the DNA says it's supposed to happen.

[pooja]

15. I am not disagreeing with you about the negligence of the hospital.

And I don't think anyone at the hospital would intend for this woman to die either.

But here is the thing. We are the richest nation in the world. Yet, we are the sickest nation by far of any developed country. You all need to follow the money. If Americans are healthy, healthcare would cost less. If people could afford to have regular check-ups, become informed of exactly what is in our food, and our drugs, we would become healthier. But that would collapse the pharm industry and the dr. industry because people would be healthy most of the time.

And if you look at the European standars for health and American standards for health i.e. beauty supplies, foods, water/ air quality, you would begin to understand why the FDA and the EPA are killing us. Just do the research. Its there.

[Warpy]

23. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

If Americans were INSURED, we'd be a healthier nation. THAT is the difference. Europeans smoke more, drink more, and eat more fat. They also live a lot longer and remain in better health while they do.

The inflation in healthcare costs is the true inflation rate in this country since it's the one thing that is 100% produced within this country. The fact that people here are sicker is beside the point.

[pooja]

24. I agree that we need healthcare, but I also think that the govt

is poisoning us by allowing the crap that they do into our foods. Look at diet foods with sweetners that are poison. Its disgusting.

[NotGivingUp]

60. agree with you 100% on this one...trouble is MOST people don't know it

[susanna]

94. I don't doubt your reasoning...

...but then please explain to me your "personal responsibility" view.

Sounds like this was a woman who likely knew nothing about any of that -- because the "authorities" in this country have told her repeatedly that her food/water/air/beauty supplies were A-OK -- how on Earth does that woman have a chance in figuring out she is really in distress? And taking responsibility for it?

I am sensing a disconnect here. Help me understand, in your mind, how she could have changed the outcome.

[superconnected]

17. Corporations can be sued for neglience and murder

Hospitals are corporations.

The hopsital is at fault.

Interesting to watch your emotional diatribe...:eyes:

[Fovea]

54. A hospital cannot be sued for murder.

Murder is a criminal offence.

They can be sued for negligence, and malpractice, even wrongful death. But these are torts, and murder is a crime.

I agree, this was murder, and the triage nurse should be charged as well as the attending medicine doc. And on top of that the hospital should take it up the ass for wrongful death.

[MGD]

56. It is negligence and manslaughter but it isn't murder.

The nurse clearly fucked up and will likely go to prison like many nurses do every year for similar things. I'm sure the army of lawyers employed by the hospital will negotiate a mutually acceptable settlement as well. By mutually acceptable, I mean they will buy their way out of criminal liability and the nurse will take the fall for the whole incident like a good little pawn. Makes me wish I had become a lawyer instead of a nurse.

[AnneD]

70. If folks only knew.....

Nurses are always taking the fall. The cases I could tell you...Doc writes the wrong dosage. Pharmacist fills the wrong dosage. Nurse give the wrong dosage-who looses the license (and everything else)-you guessed it-the nurse. I have been cussed out (and threatened with firing) because I refused to give a med that I wasn't or didn't feel comfortable giving. I have had to continually get after Doc's to look at a pt that I thought needed urgent attention and they would still take their jolly old time.

I wasn't there so I can't speak as a witness, but I won't be so quick to condemn the Nurse. Been there done that. But I think Hospital and CEO's should be held accountable as it is their fiscal policies that dictate staffing, supplies, equipment, training, etc. They have too often been quick to blame the Nurse for mistakes instead of admitting that their system is faulty and they need to spend to upgrade and adequately staff. It is easier to fire the 'bad' Nurse than to focus on the real problem.

This is one of the glaring reasons why Nurses are leaving the profession in droves. We don't have deep pocket-never have and never will. We didn't go into Nursing for the pay. We went in to help people. And these days, we can't even give the care we know to be good and right. Instead we go to work praying we don't screw up (or throwing up because we have to go to work) and go home thanking God we didn't kill anyone (or crying because we couldn't give the care to our patients that they should have had). I get the feeling that some of these CEO's get a better night's sleep than the Nurses get.

[MGD]

74. I hear ya Anne. The whole system is a mess and getting worse

and the nurse all too often exists as nothing more than a shield for the hospital administrators. If people only knew indeed.

[liberalhistorian]

84. I don't blame nurses for leaving,

and it infuriates me that they are held responsible for the mistakes and errors of doctors. I understand that doctors are under tremendous stress as well, but they are ultimately responsible and should be held responsible, and not nurses.

[MGD]

101. It's not always clear who exactly is at fault.

As far as a lawyer is concerned, anyone with deep pockets or malpractice insurance is guilty. In the real world, accidents don't generally happen because of one person's negligence, more often than not, they happen because of a multi-system failure-certain factors come into alignment each increasing the likeliehood of an accident a little more and then, inevitably, an accident happens. Millions of people are treated every day in America, it is inconceivable that accidents will never happen. What's more, nobody talks about the millions of people who go to the hospital and get cured every year.

[liberalhistorian]

110. I'm sure you're mostly correct, but as a paralegal

I can definitely tell you that the majority of lawyers do NOT believe that "anyone with deep pockets or malpractice insurance is guilty", far from it.

[MGD]

114. As anRN, I'm slightly biased against lawyers. That was more of a joke

then an honest generalization. I know there are decent lawyers out there. However, having said that, many employers advise nurses not to obtain malpractice insurance in order to avoid becoming a target caught in a lawyer's crosshairs.

Hey, what's the difference between a dead lawyer in the middle of the road and a dead snake in the middle of the road?

There are skid marks in front of the snake.

edit for a sticky space bar

[liberalhistorian]

115. At least lawyers I've worked for have

helped clients for free, even though they could barely pay their staff let alone themselves, without demanding money upfront or siccing the bloodsucking collectrolls on them. I've never known one single doctor who could say that with a straight face. And lawyers have as much overhead as doctors do, that I know for sure.

Most lawyers really don't make all that much, especially solo and small-firm ones. It's the soulless corporate ghouls who work for corporations or huge corporate law firms and who spend their days screwing over the little guy who usually make the big bucks.

[Fovea]

106. A good point, unless

the prosecutor can establish depraved indifference.

[bread_and_roses]

18. Those are great things to do. But guess what? Warpy is right.

You can do all those things as a parent and still have a child who grows up and decides to live on fast food and Hot Pockets.

And you can be an adult who has chosen/eschewed healthy/bad eating/smoking/drinking/exercise habits and STILL have a heart attack - even at a young age.

Or you can be like the 80+yr old man who is practically pickled in alcohol, smokes, lives on fried food, and who's heart is still ticking away fine.

So what do you want to do - ascertain the person's degree of "personal responsibility" before you provide the proper standard of care?

Since when is the responsibility to adhere to Professional standards negated by the client's/patient's "bad" behaviour?

[pooja]

25. Personal accountability is part of the problem.

When did we all go to sleep and allow this govt to mow us over. I want universal healthcare as well, but I also want more Dr.s that are qualified in holistic health care. I want the Pharm industry to stop patening my genes so that other researchers can study cures. I want the FDA to demand that all foods be labeled with genetic modifications and specifically what modifications that it added. I want vaccinations to be safe (i.e. not filled with mercury and not contain contaminations like they do). I want to go to the store and know that the foods that I am buying and the medicines that I am taking are safe. and at this time they aren't--spinach anyone?

[Warpy]

27. The ONLY person you can hold accountable is YOURSELF

and that is something every health care worker has to come to terms with.

People have a RIGHT to make their own choices whether you like them or not.

Anything else is FASCISM, and isn't that what we're all on this board trying to fight?

[liberalhistorian]

Very good points, and there's also another

major problem. I try my best to eat healthy, I stay away from fast food shit, most processed and fried foods, limit sugar and fat intake, etc., etc. I'd love to eat and drink mostly organic products, include natural and herbal supplements in my diet, etc. But it's so damned EXPENSIVE. It's hard to afford to do that all the time. And it's a catch-22; it's expensive because not enough people buy them, but then people can't afford to buy them because it's expensive.

[liberalhistorian]

85. There's already a growing movement

to change the professional standard of care for many in the medical profession, whether it's allowing pharmacists to refuse to fill prescriptions for legitimately prescribed medicines, or allowing doctors and nurses to refuse to treat those whose "lifestyles" are against their "beliefs", such as gays with AIDS, etc. Believe me, the movement's growing and it ain't goin' away anytime soon. It's truly sickening, disgusting and inhumane, but that isn't stopping it.

My feeling is that if you don't want to deal with certain groups of people, then don't fucking get in the medical profession, take your bigoted, stupid self-righteous judments elsewhere.

[FILAM23]

29. I vote

for all the people who swamped the ER with non-emergency cases.
And I have worked in enough ER's over the past 30 years to know
it happens on a daily basis.

[ret5hd]

38. It's those damned poor people without insurance, right?

Damn those poor people, if we could just get rid of those poor people everything would work out alright!

[MGD]

58. It probably would work out alright actually.

I wonder if we can get rid of them by creating jobs in China and Mexico?

[Hepburn]

104. That's part of the problem...

...but many years ago -- like about 35 -- in undergrad school, I worked in the ER as a tech. Translation for "tech": Glorified nurses aide because I had a brain and could follow orders. What I saw was that many people put off simple illnesses that could have been handled at the doctor's office and used the ER as an after-hours clinic because they were too busy during the day or did not want to wait at their doctor's office to be seen about something simple like a sore throat. I think things are better now that there are walk-in clinics -- something that did not exist back in the late 60's and early 70's.

But: What I have seen lately with people who do have good insurance coverage is that to avoid any wait, they call an ambulance so that they are taken directly into the ER and put into a treatment bay. That is the way they are now avoiding the wait in the office of their HMO doctor or in the ER waiting room. I have seem this happen with several families who are covered by Kaiser insurance since no matter what they seem to do medically, they have no bills to pay. They call an ambulance and get directly into the ER in that manner.

So...IMO...it is not only those without medical coverage who are causing problems in the ER, but those with good coverage who have found ways to get around the wait for service. No ambulance company dumps a patient in the ER waiting room, but takes him/her directly into the ER for evaluation and treatment.

[liberalhistorian]

89. And just why in the hell do you think they do that?

Do you think they want to do that? Don't you think they'd prefer having a regular, primary-care doctor, especially since people and families are much healthier with a regular family doctor who treats them?

They do that because they usually HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE. Most doctors won't see uninsured patients anymore, no matter what their need is, and the ones who will are swamped and overworked. Or they'll only see them if they pay a large fee up front, no matter what the need it. They have no other place to go other than the ER, or they're actually told to go there by the staff of a doctor's office that won't see them without insurance or money upfront. Been there, done that, seen, heard and experienced it too many fucking times.

What do you expect them to do, just suffer? Or maybe even die already. Yeah, that's the ticket. Fuck them, let them all just die already. I mean, how dare they actually expect to be treated like human beings just because they don't have money. The nerve. :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :mad: :puke:

[LeighAnn]

35. Needs to be civilly determined IMO

Sue the hospital and lots of John Does, and as the facts come out, if someone on staff seems to have been inexcusably negligent, charge that person. That's what I would do. But I'm not a lawyer :P

[knitter4democracy]

51. The nurse, the doctor, and the administrators

Legally, they're the ones liable. The nurse was to be overseen by the ER doc, so that doc will be named, I'm sure. The nurse made the wrong call, and a person died, so she'll be held liable. The hospital admins hopefully will be held liable for creating a climate for malpractice (they are to make sure the ER is fully staffed, and I'd bet that it wasn't).

It's all well and good to promote personal responsibility, but heart disease is a complex thing. You can't just say that people need to eat right, exercise constantly, and pray hard they won't get it and wash your hands of the whole thing. We already know that there are poisons in the environment and in our food that are causing trouble, and we know that many cannot afford the good foods to stay healthy.

I am truly glad for your two year old. My kids at that age did the same thing. Now, after starting school and being exposed to other foods, they still eat healthy by choice much of the time, but they would never turn down junk food if offered. We work hard to make sure they exercise enough, read enough, play enough, eat right, etc., but the reality is, they most likely have already started developing atherosclerosis plaques (just like all the studies say).

No matter how much I want what is best for my children, if the area is polluted beyond belief and if our air isn't safe, and if our public space has been made unsafe, they will get sick, they will suffer, and they will ultimately die. It is our responsibility to fight for all Americans and make sure that we all are safe, that we all have good food and exercise options within our grasp, and that we all can live safe, healthy lives.

Would you like your child to die in an overcrowded ER from something preventable, like appendicitis? You'd rail at the system, then, and I would be right there with you. My husband's a doctor, and even he says not to go to our local ER without knowing your diagnosis. ERs are usually understaffed and people can die from that. That is not the victim's fault, just as it wouldn't be your child's.

[IronLionZion]

67. I'll choose 5, the conservative politicians

and the conservatives who support them who so aggressively oppose anything that may help get people affordable insurance or even affordable preventative health care and regular checkups. ERs are so swamped because so many people go there who don't have real emergencies. They go to the ER because they have nowhere else to go.

Visits to the ER are damn expensive too if you have insurance. I waited in a stretcher and neck brace for about 2 hours before a doctor could see me to make sure I wasn't paralyzed. I had some cuts that I cleaned myself in the hospital bathroom after I was released. That worthless visit cost my insurance $800. The ambulance ride was $600.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. And you KNOW that this woman made poor choices

and that is why she died? Oh never mind, you admit you aren't in the medical field. :eyes:

[Warpy]

6. My guess is that a full investigation will reveal a lot of the things

that combined to make me leave nursing and resolve not to go back, not even if I'm hungry and desperate and my back has miraculously been healed.

My guess would be nurses floated to the ER from places like pediatrics, nurses who have NO CLUE about what constitutes an emergency requiring immediate care and what doesn't.

My guess would be an intake clerk who was new on the job or someone floated from another department who also had no clue that anyone with chest pain needed to be whisked through the door BEFORE the paperwork got done.

My guess would be a chart started and left in a stack of other charts, a total communication breakdown between chairs and the emergency staff.

My guess would be short staffing, an ER staffed to deal with todders with earaches and the occasional cut or broken bone but not staffed to deal with a sudden rush of patients or more than one real emergency at a time.

My guess is an ER that is seen by hospital administrators as a headache and a net money loser so that's the department they try to cut costs in first.

Unfortunately, my guess is also that a youngish looking black woman was dismissed as having indigestion instead of heart problems, even though the standard of care is to treat ALL chest pain as life threatening, especially when combined with her other symptoms.

[Monkeyman]

26. BINGO cuts in our hospitals are costing people lives

Sadly this story is happening everyday in ER,s just going unreported.Even Firedepartments are cutting hospitals off their list do to care not being provided

[AnneD]

71. Preach...

Sista, preach. I don't like any of my family to go to the hospital these days that I can't be there to watch over them. It is so dangerous anymore.

[Arkansas Granny]

8. A few years ago I had to go to the er at one of our local hospitals

due to a foot injury on a holiday weekend. Since no doctor or walk-in clinic was open on the holiday, it was really crowded. There was an older gentleman that arrived about 30 minutes after I did complaining of chest pains and looking like he was definitely feeling bad. My injury was finally treated and as I was leaving (about 4 hours after I had arrived), I saw that the gentleman with the chest pains was still in the waiting room and hadn't been seen yet. I would have thought that someone who had symptoms that were potentially life threatening would have been given priority treatment over someone who had minor injuries, but that's not the way it works.

[bread_and_roses]

13. It IS the way it works in a good ER. (n/t)

[MGD]

57. That's the way it normally works.

[Kagemusha]

9. Edit: Ok, ok, I totally misunderstood an important part here.

The assessment of homicide was made by a "coroner's jury". I thought it was made by the "coroner" full stop. That is apparently not the case.

Um, the article should've explained what the hell a coroner's jury is - they never show any on CSI, so how the hell would a normal reader know? ...Party joking, mostly serious. I don't consider it common knowledge.

I still don't really know what a coroner's jury is (in detail) but, seems that the coroner gave advice on what the pure forensics would mean accompanied by all the other information available about the circumstances of the death, and THAT was the basis for the coroner's jury ruling the death to be homicide (that is, negligent homicide). As long as the coroner himself or herself isn't going well beyond the role of an examiner. That WOULD be inappropriate...

[rodeodance]

10. I agree, Coroner can put down medical cause of death and then police

DA or whomever--can file criminal charges. yet. i really do not know---perhaps it is up to the state regarding the role of the coroner.

[Warpy]

14. "negligent homicide"

That means she died because they didn't lay a hand on her.

[Kagemusha]

19. Self-deleted

nt

[malaise]

21. I agree but when are we arresting

Bush for 'negligent homicide' in NOLA?

[AnneD]

72. I'm holding out...

for war criminal charges in the Hague.

[Vinca]

11. I'd be curious to know whether or not this lady was insured. nt

[yardwork]

12. I think we have a winner!

I'd be willing to bet that she was uninsured or at least looked uninsured.

That, and everything else Warpy said in post above.

[struggle4progress]

34. Thar's a hangin offense: havin a coronary whilst lookin uninsured.

Kinda suspect it's a whole lot like drivin whilst black ...

[davsand]

49. Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! My first question, too!

If you want treatment you DAMN well better be waving an insurance policy when you hit the doors to that ER.

We got lucky when Kev had his heart attack in May. He walked into the ER while I was parking the car, he handed them his Clinic ID and his HMO ID card, and they took him into a triage room before the admission forms were even printed out.

Within 45 minutes of hitting the doors to that ER he was on a table in a Cardiac Cath lab having stents put in to open his arteries.

He's doing fine now, but had they waited I doubt his outcome would have been as positive. (The statistics support that opinion, BTW.)

Pure and simple, they let that lady die. Maybe it was lack of training, maybe it was racism, or maybe it was a for profit hospital that wanted to "discourage" an uninsured person from staying there for treatment.


Laura

[moondust]

16. Deeper problems.

Way too many people cannot afford health insurance and therefore way too many of them do not seek medical care when they should because they cannot afford it. So they wait until a crisis occurs at which time they have no choice but to rush to the ER. Thus the ERs are flooded with patients of all kinds, some of whom are seeking emergency treatment for chronic medical problems that need long-term treatment in a clinic setting.

If they want to prosecute somebody then prosecute Republican lawmakers who typically stand in the way of affordable health care on behalf of their insurance industry masters.

[Kagemusha]

20. Lawmakers have immunity for speech & debate.

So such lawsuits really should stick to the providers who are cutting corners in ways that shock the conscience.

[coffeenap]

22. Keller is a progressive!

He is a great guy--gave up all kinds of wealth-producing practices to help indigent people get medical care in that part of Lake County--he is a leader for change in the health care area. By winning the election for coroner, he hopes to change things. I am sure this is why he is declaring a homicide so it can get to court and begin to institute drastic changes. He is wonderful! (I am a resident of Lake County, IL and most of it is full of Repubs and rich people. The part of Lake County he is helping is poor and neglected.)

[madame defarge]

28. coffeenap's right. Keller is for good change. n/t

[xchrom]

30. i have such BAD er stories -- i avoid them if i can

and try to get admitted if possible.

i recently had to go to the er with excruciating pain -- i mean falling down, doubled over pain.

there must have 40 people in the er that day -- i was told it could 5 hours before i'd see anybody.

there was no way i could wait -- i couldn't.

i made my doctor's office take me -- which has since started a war.

their policy is if you are really sick go to the er -- but you can't get IN to the er.

yeah but you're really sick.

yeah and i need help.

any way it turned out to be kidney stones -- i needed morphine -- i need some kind of ultra-sound -- i needed HELP.

and now my doctor and i BRISTLE when she and i see each other -- because i made her office treat me.


anyway -- very, very sad to hear about this woman -- but i am not surprised.

and i'm guessing that no way is this the first.

and lastly -- we are all being abused -- i just wonder what it will take for us to stop taking it.

[ck4829]

31. The "greatest health care system in the world" claims yet another victim.

[toopers]

36. Ok, so a misdiagnosis is going to result in a homicide charge . . .

something tells me that this will not have a positive affect on the health care industry.

[coffeenap]

39. I think what he has in mind is negligence, not misdiagnosis.

And intentional negligence, which he has identified in the poor communities of his county. Check this: (not that I agree with everything he says, btw)

http://coronerlakecountyil.blogspot.com/

[toopers]

41. I understand what he has in mind . . .

however, it was really a misdiagnosis that was done "on the fly", I would think that nurses will be a lot less willing to make a decision.

I did find one thing really interesting -- the reference to a "reasonable person". It seems that determination can be used for you, and against you in the court of law.

[yardwork]

46. The hospital violated federal law

Federal law requires that hospitals provided emergency care to people who show up at emergency rooms in crisis. This law is very, very clear. The feds mandate this because they provide hospitals with Medicaid and Medicare payments, without which no hospital could survive.

This case has nothing to do with a misdiagnosis. The coroner's jury found that the hospital failed to provide legally mandated care to a person who needed emergency care. Hospitals aren't allowed to do that.

More than one person had to be at fault in this case. The woman was in the ER waiting room for at least four hours - some of that time she was dead. A bunch of things went very wrong in that ER that night, and an investigation is clearly called for.

Yes, it also points out how our health system is inadequate and overburdened in so many ways.

[toopers]

75. I agree that an investigation is clearly called for . . .

I never said it wasn't. However, it could have been a misdiagnosis on a busy night -- the woman's problems may not have seemed as bad as others.

I am not defending the actions of the hospital staff. No one enjoys waiting in the emergency room regardless of how minor the injury/illness may be.

[ninkasi]

44. This is so sad

A beautiful, young woman is dead, and her death should not have happened. I think the problem is the "bottom line" mentality that corporations, and conservatives, have shoved down our throats. For more and more Americans, they are finding health insurance too expensive to have, and fewer and fewer employers are offering health care as a benefit.

Another factor is the obsession of businesses to cut the number of employees they have, and to work them longer, and harder, for less money. Taking time off work sometimes means losing a job. Stress is a big contributing factor to many health problems.

Europeans, in addition to having universal health care, are also working fewer hours, and are entitled to more days off, and vacation time. This lady was the victim of corporate rule in America. More and more people go without insurance, so must wait until their health is in crisis, then go to emergency rooms, rather than seeing a doctor early on, when the condition is not yet an emergency.

Hospitals cut staff, and work their nurses, especially, to exhaustion, forcing more and more doctors and nurses to see more patients, even though fatigue can cause poor judgment, and results in more medical errors. Shopping for fresh, wholesome food, and preparing it might not be possible for people struggling already to keep one, or more jobs, taking care of their children, and doing household chores.

Americans are overworked, underpaid, except for the top executives, and the result can more and more end in tragedy, as this case shows. It shouldn't be this way, not in the richest country on earth. American's wealth, however, is not being enjoyed by all Americans. The ones who work themselves to death producing the wealth, are producing it for businesses who lard the salaries of their executives, and let less and less go to the regular employees.

This is just one of the many things wrong with what happens when politicians pass laws to benefit corporate donors, and let the only part of the laws that touch the rest of us be the taxes we pay to be screwed by our own representatives in Congress. Winning back one or both houses of Congress is essential if we want to even attempt leveling the playing field, so that we all share this nation's prosperity.

[Nickster]

48. I'm from Lake County Illinois and from this story, I'm not sure which

hospital they are talking about, but I have a suspicion about which one it is. There are two hospitals owned by Vista in the same town and within minutes from each other. One was called St Therese and the other was called Victory Memorial. I think this is St Therese in the story.

A few years ago, I was driving and suddenly had some severe chest pains radiating across my back and chest. I had never felt anything like that and stopped at my mom's house because I thought I was having a heart attack and didn't think I could get myself to the hospital. Anyways, she drove me there and I gave my story to the triage, not a nurse just an admissions secretary. By then, my chest was in so much pain, I couldn't think straight. The secretary asked me if I had insurance, I said I did, but I didn't have the card with me. She then pulled out a book with insurance cards and asked me to pick out which one I thought it was. I was in so much pain, and started to panic, thinking that I was in serious medical trouble. I told her how much pain I was in, and that the pain was across my chest, symptomatic of a heart attack. She said she needed my insurance card and/or info. I told her, before I die, can I call work and ask the HR person there? She couldn't allow me to use the phone.....so I got up and struggled to get to the payphone. Of course, the work phone was busy. I dialed again....still busy. In frustration, I started banging the handset on top of the payphone and screaming at the phone. Shock of shocks....they came out with a gurney and a wristband and took me back for an EKG. I have other stories about that hospital...so this story doesn't surprise me at all.

[0007]

59. This is more proof that the US is falling apart at the seams

and heading into third world status.

[bleedingheart]

61. No Excuses...this is Negligence

She had the classic signs of heart problems.

She should have been seen even if she had to sit in a chair in the ER or on a gurney in the hall.

[NotGivingUp]

62. our medical system is absolutely pitiful. i try to stay away as much as

i can. we pay more for health care than any other nation, yet ours is the worst. the system is broken. ALL of our systems are broken. i don't think we can set this country right by just getting rid of george bush. we have some deep underlying problems in all of our systems, and they make things work in the opposite fashion than what they are meant to work.

[goforit]

69. Don't stay away ... get involved and change the system.

Our medical system is in a crisis and Hospitals can't get the help in.
Staff/patient ratios are horrible.

The public needs to pitch in too.

[NotGivingUp]

107. Pardon? I said I stay away...for my own personal health. Has nothing

to do with doing something about it or not doing something about it. In what ways would you suggest that the public needs to pitch in?

[quiet.american]

64. What a tragic, sad story for this woman and her family. n/t

[Danascot]

65. A little perspective

My wife is a physician’s assistant in emergency medicine. She has 30 years of experience; she’s incredibly dedicated, skilled and thorough. You’d be very lucky if you ended up seeing her if you needed emergency care. And in most cases you would see her and not an MD.

She works at a private hospital located in a small city in upstate New York. The vast majority of people she sees come to the ER because they don’t have insurance and don’t have a regular doctor. These are chronic conditions or crises resulting from chronic conditions left untreated. She also gets many drug seekers who often become abusive or violent when she refuses to prescribe what they want.

This ER is completely overwhelmed. She often sees 60 patients in a 12 hour shift. That’s 12 minutes per patient and some are true life and death situations. She has no time to take breaks and she eats while writing charts, if she has time to eat at all. After her shift ends, she often spends another hour, on her own time, finishing charts she couldn't get to during her shift. How does that compare with your job?

She has a few great nurses she works with but others are worthless. The good ones often move on for better pay, better hours or less stress, and many leave the profession entirely.

Specialist MDs are required by the hospital to be on-call with the ER a certain number of hours per month as a condition of hospital privileges, but they’re reluctant to come in at 3 am to treat someone who can’t or won’t pay. Plus there are fewer and fewer specialist MDs for her to call on. There are specialties the hospital no longer has and she’ll have to refer a patient to another hospital for treatment. She sometimes has to threaten to write things in a chart to the effect that “MD refused to come in despite my strong recommendation…”. They know they’ll be cooked if there’s a lawsuit but there are several who resent her tactics.

Less than 25% of her ER’s bills end up being paid. People either don’t have insurance or don’t have money and the reimbursement rates from Medicaid and HMOs have been in steady decline while medical costs have risen. Closing this ER has been a running debate in for the past couple of years and she thinks it’s likely to close before much longer. Many ERs in this region have already closed and many outlying communities do not have access to emergency services, and the transport time is excessive.

Her greatest fear is a major epidemic like H5N1 flu or a disaster with many injuries because the ER system is already in failure.

I'm not defending the ER that failed to treat the woman with heart failure. Because the system is overwhelmed, it would be possible for the same thing to happen at her ER, though she does not determine who receives priority from the waiting room.

My point is that her experience is common for emergency departments across the country. Is this any way to operate an essential service?

[Maat]

91. Thanks for your story.

P.A.'s are the backbone of medical care in this country it seems. They have been there consistently to treat my daughter at the Clinic. My daughter is very lucky; my best friend is her physician. For colds, flu and minor infections, I go to the local urgent-care clinic; the service is top-notch.

[IronLionZion]

66. ERs in this country are swamped

because too many uninsured people who don't have a real emergency go there to get treatment. Yes, you do have to wait several hours in a busy urban ER to get seen and people do die during the wait. That's a tragedy and shows that we really do have a health care crisis in this country.

What can we do about it?

-get these people insured
-ER is for emergencies, route the non-emergencies to the right places
-hire more nurses to alleviate the serious nursing shortage we have in this country
-increase funding for non-profit clinics and hospitals
-realize that there is a health care crisis in this country that just plain doesn't exist in the UK or many European nations. You don't have to wait for emergency care in the UK because people only go there when they have an emergency.

[goforit]

68. Yes, staffing is hard to find. Law suits and nurse/patient ratio scare

staff away. There is no way in hell you are gonna be able hire people when
all you do is sue.

Time for socialized medicine!!!!!

Nursing and Doctors are becoming more and more scarce.

Our society will be seeing far more of these cases in the future.

[heliarc]

77. Well yes, but

There has been a steep decline in the number of trauma centers and emergency rooms in urban centers overall. I know that for most "for-profit" hospitals the insurance overhead for runnning a trauma center simply forces them to close their doors to emergency patients. The simple way to deal with this? Create a requirement - yes requirement - that hospitals provide an emergency service for the good of the community and partially subsidize it. IMHO take some of the money away from the Defense department and put it where it matters most. We simply have the worst quality coverage of most industrialized nations when you look at the even distribution of services across the populace and it is shameful.

[Solon]

86. OK, I believe this is a BS reason...

Everyone is automatically assuming that the ER is swamped, that may be true, but in my experience, most private hospitals are just SLOW, and negligent at the same time.

Let me tell you my story, I was working 3rd shift at a factory a couple of years ago, now, one night, it rained REALLY hard, and the guy in charge of the dock doors failed to clean the water from the floor. I slipped and fell, and my face hit a metal plate, cutting my right eyebrow to the bone, and I was GUSHING BLOOD. So, the managers and everybody stopped, at the time, I couldn't see out of my right eye(covered in blood), and I asked if it was still there, seemed like a stupid question now, I was wearing eye protection, but it was the first thing that came to mind when it happened.

So, they give me some first aid at work, slowed the bloodflow, cleaned me up a little bit, and called a taxi to send me straight to the hospital. It was around 2 AM at this point. So, I go to the ER, because, well, it 3 AM AT NIGHT! I walk into the ER, and there are TWO people waiting the the waiting room. Now, bear in mind that on the way over, the bandage that was on my head was soaked through, and they told me to wait. I waited for over 3 HOURS before someone even looked at me, and the kicker is this, the ONLY people to arrive through ER since I showed up was my father and sister, I called them while at work, to pick me up after I was treated. They came in the door(took them 3 hours to get there, I left a message on the machine, Dad woke up at 5 to get to work, so did my sister), and were amazed to see me there, holding my head, blood dripping, RIGHT IN FRONT OF A DAMNED NURSE!

My Dad damned near hit the roof, note: my father has NO TEMPER that I know of, this is the first time, in the 19 years I known him at this point, in EVER raising his voice. After he yelled at the nurses and doctors, they THEN decided to treat me for my HEAD INJURY. Also, another thing to point out, my employer called ahead for me so that I could be treated expediently, I guess the nurses forgot?

Also, another note, this isn't some small town I'm talking about but St. Louis, Missouri, a city that seems like it has more hospitals than McDonald's, Barnes-Jewish, a shitload of "Saint" Hospitals, and plenty with names that end with North, South, East, and West. The one I went to was one of the "Saint" ones, I forgot which one, but then again, I didn't have to deal with billing, so I didn't really care after I left. Went to my local doc for checkups and stuff.

Now, I did luck out, I didn't get a concussion, nor any brain damage/clots, etc. But if you think about it, if I did have these things, I could "seem fine" for a short while, sat down, slump, and die just right there while waiting. The ONLY thing I was thinking of the ENTIRE time I was sitting in that chair was, "don't fall asleep", see, I was still adjusting to 3rd shift.

Now, the treatment was OK, the doc competent, I don't even blame him, he JUST started his shift, and I was the first patient he saw, he wasn't the one that made me wait. What was surprising were the amount of students/interns, that were in my little divider thingy. I mean, I had SIX people in there, and the doc was DESCRIBING what he was doing to my wound. It was a rather simple matter, he looked at it, pulled it up(Gods that hurt like hell!), said, "Hey, I can see your skull!" Then told me to lay down, gave me a local, with a really short needle, then stitched the inside tissue, then, to reduce the chance of a noticable scar, superglued the skin together, one of the interns had to push my skin together while he applied the superglue though what looked like a chapstick container, or a glue stick.

After that I left, thank goodness.

[liberalhistorian]

113. The uninsured often have no choice

but to go to the ER for non-emergencies. Very few doctors will accept uninsured patients and those who do almost always demand steep payments upfront before they'll even see the patient, no matter what the need. You just can't get past the front desk gatekeepers if you don't have insurance or money upfront. Even if it's an emergency situation, most of the time. I sat in the office of my former doctor back when I lived in Ohio and saw the same drama played out almost every damn time I was there. People bleeding or obviously ill, or with screaming, obviously very ill children or babies, being told tough shit, pay or leave, take it or leave it. They would then be told to go to the ER because there weren't any other doctors in the area who would accept the uninsured unless they had money upfront, usually at least a hundred bucks. The desperation of such people is truly heartbreaking to see.

One time between jobs, when I was uninsured, I went there for a severe throat infection, could barely talk, and they refused to let me past the front desk unless I paid a hundred bucks and made arrangements to pay the fifty bucks I already owed them. I had no money upfront, and I couldn't make any arrangements because at the time I had no job, no income, and absolutely no idea of when I would have any. I'd been a patient there for over ten fucking years, you'd have thought that would have made a difference, but no. So, where did I end up? You guessed it, the ER. I simply had no choice.

So I get real testy when I hear about all those selfish, inconsiderate people cluttering up the ER with non-emergencies. Where the fuck else do you expect them to go? They are human beings in need who are just as worthy of receiving treatment, and good treatment at that, as anyone else. And they'll be charged an arm and a leg for it too, because they're uninsured, believe you me.

I'm currently between jobs and have been uninsured for the past few weeks, I pray to God nothing major happens to me until I find another job and get insurance. It ain't fun being uninsured in this country, believe me. Not just because of the trouble finding treatment, but the attitude you get from medical personnel, as if you're not worthy of being there and being treated because you don't have insurance. That's the first thing they ask at the ER or clinics, and the only thing they're interested in now, regardless of how sick you are. Truly disgusting and inexcusable. Being uninsured is a real eye-opener as far as seeing the real face of the "health-care" system in this country.

[IronLionZion]

117. It's not the fault of the uninsured patients or the hospital staff

it's the system. Finding a way to get everyone insured, whether it's with single-payer or some other plan is the key to resolving this. The ERs are swamped and that hurts everyone.

The health system in this country is broken. The problem is paying for it.

You mentioned that you pray nothing major happens to you. Is there any way you could get major medical (catastrophic) coverage for yourself in the meantime? That will be more affordable than full coverage until you start a new job with health benefits.

At the very least, our country should have universal major medical insurance to cover the big stuff.

[liberalhistorian]

119. Unfortunately, no, there really isn't

any way I can afford catastrophic coverage right now. I don't yet have another job and my unemployment isn't even enough to cover rent, food, car payment, and other necessities. I'm just gonna have to pray that I have the same luck I did in previous periods of being uninsured; fortunately, I'm pretty healthy right now, knock on wood.

[AnneD]

73. I wish I could credit the study....

but a survey came out recently and they discovered that the lack of access to health care (via povery, etc) is actually beginning to effect the mortality stats in theis country. We do have incrediable technology but most folks can't access it. There will soon be an entire generation of Docs and Nurses going out and not nearly enough to replace them (this is world wide). We really need to think smart about this and come up with a plan soon. Your just can't snap your fingers and get a Doc or a Nurse. It takes time and lots of training.

[heliarc]

78. And the doctors with more specialized training

also have bigger student loans to pay off.

[liberalhistorian]

112. Most doctors, period, have huge student

loans to pay off and they, like most others with student loans, get very little grace period before they must start payments.

[heliarc]

118. Certainly true.

Sorry to have unconsciously excluded all doctors in the equation.

[liberalhistorian]

95. Which is one of the many reasons why I think that

medical training should be very heavily subsidized in this country. Many good people who'd make excellent doctors simply cannot afford the time and training that it takes, and we are losing their skills and potential productivity.

Many of those who do make it through have to rely heavily on loans, and have to practice for many years before they can even begin to break even what with exorbitant student loan payments and malpractice insurance payments.

[AnneD]

105. They should subsidize Nursing Schools...

but they really don't. Nursing gets a fraction of the funding that Med Schools get....and you need far more Nurses than Docs. Nursing Schools are closing all around the country and what they pay Nurse educators as compared to professors or or Docs teaching in med schools is disgraceful. You take to great a pay cut to teach.

[liberalhistorian]

111. Agreed, nursing schools and

training should also be heavily subsidized. Although I don't think you could ever pay me enough to be either a nurse or a doctor, no sirree. And I don't know who would want to have a job with that kind of stress and pressure, more power to them.

[AnneD]

116. I graduated Nursing School in 1991....

In the 15 years that I have been a Nurse, the landscape has drastically changed. The profit motive (business model) was introduced into an industry that should be treated as a trust. I believe in my heart of hearts that one should not make a profit off of the misery of others: and yet drug companies and chain hospitals do just that.

In addition to changing the fundamental culture of the hospitals-the attitude to employees and patients have also changed for the worse. Instead of being viewed as an asset-Nurses are viewed as an expense. That is a false premise because pt. are there for Nursing care. Now wait you might say-I came there to have a surgery. That is true-but due to the advancements-many surgeries can almost be done as outpatient. Those that cannot be done as outpatient are risky and require specialized monitoring and care (the Nurse). If Nurses time were billed separately, this service would have value. Instead, skilled Nursing care is lumped in with the cost of the room (even if we give say a breathing treatment-Respiratory Therapy bill and get the money-Nursing Services does not).

Because Nurses are view as over head, there is a drive to get more bang for the buck. This as lead to giving Nurses more pt than can be safely handled. For every pt over 4 that a Nurse cares for, the risk of an unexpected outcome (fancy way of saying they died) goes up 10-17%. Now folks, this is where the rubber meets the road. All the great surgery in the world means diddly if you don't get the care. In addition to loading the Nurses with patients...hospitals have been slow if down right stubborn about adopting measure that prevented injuries. For example, if a UPS driver has a package over 50 lbs, he can ask AND get assistance with lifting. Nurses, on the other hand are routinely expected to lift and move 100 lbs of dead weight (it is written in some job descriptions). The majority of Nurses I graduated with went out due to musculoskeletal injury. Nurses and Nurses aides are on par with dock workers for injury. And how many Nurses have been infected with Aids and Hep C before CONGRESS had to pass a law requiring hospitals to provide gloves and stick-less needles. Out of the almost 30 Nurses that graduated with me, less than 10 are still in practice.

The last thing that is like salt in the wound to Nurses is management dictating practice. I am talking about those lame assed customer service plans that are all the rage. I don't treat customers, I treat patients. In my book that is the most important person. The customer service is window dressing, used to disguise how truly bad things have gotten. Folks aren't there for a mint on the pillow-they are there for care they cannot do or receive at home. I have had patients that had to be on special diets (to protect organs) that threw hissy fits for something that was not on the list for them to have. Despite all our explainations-this patient called and complained to the CEO. He came down and kissed butt and gave the patient said dangerous food (ya killed one organ-let's kill that precious second one you got). The ultimate insult was that he wanted us to apologize to said patient. That was the last straw for me. I told him I was their to save the patients ass, not kiss it-and walked out.

THAT, my friends, are the reasons that Nurses are becoming an endangered species. Sorry for the long post, but it is something the public needs to know.

[KingFlorez]

87. More proof we have a failing medical system

The emergency room in my city is just as terrible, waiting times can be two hours or more.

[MGD]

98. 2 hours is good. I have heard of people waiting all day and night.