Poll on French Muslims blasts popular cliches

[Flagg]

Poll on French Muslims blasts popular cliches

PARIS, Sept 19, 2006 (AFP) - A large majority of French Muslims support sexual equality, free choice in religion and the separation of church and state, flying in the face of some Western cliches on Islam, a new poll reveals.

Of the Muslims questioned, 91 percent said they supported male-female equality, while 69 percent would accept a Muslim woman marrying a non-Muslim, according to the CSA poll to be published Thursday by the Roman Catholic weekly La Vie.

Some 73 percent also said they agreed with the French separation of church and state -- an issue spotlighted two years ago by a contentious ban on religious signs including Muslim headscarves in state schools.

Fully 94 percent said they believed people were equal regardless of their religion, and 46 percent that it was acceptable for a Muslim to convert to Christianity -- against 45 percent who said the opposite.

<snip>

French Muslims were generally observant of major religious rites, the study suggested, with 88 percent saying they fast during the holy Muslim month of Ramadan and 44 percent saying they pray five times a day.

But 30 percent said they never read from the Koran. Only 17 percent -- most of them men -- went to mosque once a week, while 49 percent never did so.

http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=25&story_id=33213

[Laughing Mirror]

1. It's clear then why Sarkozy is scared of Muslims in France

They are just too damn progressive for the little jerk.

[Warpy]

2. It's just another example of a few rabid nutcases

ruining things for the sensible majority.

Think Christians versus the rabid Christian right.

[xchrom]

3. i LOVE polls like these!

in your face! -- conservative freaks!

just what liberals have been telling you all along --

[PsychoDad]

4. I think the above results...

Would be valid for most Muslims worldwide.

Peace

[MisterP]

5. don't tell the LePenists--which is, er, two-thirds of the major politicans

I love the term LePenist or LePenisme--it's so dirty

[seriousstan]

6. 46 percent that it was acceptable for a Muslim to convert to Christianity

45% say they are guilty of apostasy and deserve to be killed?

[athena]

7. You have an overactive imagination, don't you?

Where do you get that "unacceptable" means "deserving of death"? That is not the question the poll asked. The way the question is worded, "unacceptable" may mean "a sin", or "not the right thing to do," or, "I wouldn't want my children to do it."

[seriousstan]

8. Do I? Educate yourself, here I'll help you......

Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda) is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.

All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed. A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

Here are the Qur'an verse...

"But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray. As to those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains, though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous, and they will find no helpers." 3:90-91


Don't like my link? Do your own google search and read about the real-world condition and abuse of those who reject Islam.

[Ravenseye]

10. Yes you do

I'm sure there are some in that 45% that feel that way, but the majority just think it's wrong. Like if you surveyed a bunch of random American Protestants, you'd probably find simliar numbers of people who thought it wrong to convert to Islam. Heck it'd probably be higher.

Apostasy for the majority of Muslim's has about as much meaning as the Bible saying that Homosexuals should be put to death. How many Chrisitians would answer a simliar question about whether becoming a homosexual was wrong or not? If 45% of Christians thought it was wrong for someone to be gay, would you interpret that to mean that 45% of Christians thought they should be put to death?

Same thing. At least in moderate and western countries, and amoungst the populations. Conditions under some of the despotic and theocratic countries in the middle east aren't run by those people though, but by the small percentage who DO. Don't confuse those governments with the muslim body as a whole.

[Demit]

11. But you're still reading far more into the answer than is there.

Without asking every single one of those respondents directly whether they think converts should be killed, you are still assuming. One could also assume that, from the way the other questions were answered, Muslims in France are westernized and therefore might think that murdering a convert is unacceptable too.

[PsychoDad]

13. There is also this.

The Qur'an states that God (in Arabic, Allah) despises apostasy. See verses 3:72, 3:90-91,16:106,4:137 and 5:54 which deal with apostasy directly and which do not prescribe any earthly punishment or death.

The relevant verses (as translated by Yusuf Ali) are:

"But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray. As to those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains, though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous, and they will find no helpers." 3:90-91
"Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them on the way." 4:137
"A section of the People of the Book say: "Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers, but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) Turn back... " 3:72
"Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty. This because they love the life of this world better than the Hereafter... Without doubt, in the Hereafter they will perish." 16:106-109

Based on these verses, Qur'an alone Muslims reject any legal or other human sanctions against apostates.

The dissent Shia jurist Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri, a significant Shi'a religious authority, states that the above verses do not prescribe an earthly penalty for apostasy and adds that it is not improbable that the punishment was prescribed by Muhammad at early Islam due to political conspiracies against Islam and Muslims and not only because of changing the belief or expressing it. Montazeri defines different types of apostasy. He does not hold that a reversion of belief because of investigation and research is punishable by death but prescribes capital punishment for a desertion of Islam out of malice and enmity towards the Muslim community.<7>

Guess you missed this part...

If you examine early Islamic history, it is fairly clear that the death penalty was used only in cases where the apostate was a threat to the small Islamic community which was at war with Mecca by colluding with it's enemies.

Like many things in Islam there are many viewpoints, and even though the 4 sunni schools advocate the death penalty for Apostates who become threats to the Umma, in modern times the practice is almost never endorsed by any knowledgeable scholar.

And even if it were, every Muslim is free to disregard the ruling in favor of a more tolerant and sane fatwah.

Peace.

[geek tragedy]

9. French Muslims are much more like US Muslims than they are

like those in the UK or Germany.

They've been much more culturally assimilated. American Muslims are "Americans" and French Muslims are "French." UK Muslims have much more of a feeling of alienation from their countrymen.

[passy]

14. I beg to disagree.

First of all the conditions for the coming of the groups of immigrants who are muslims in France and the UK are very different, secondly they are very different people, one group being mainly from North Africa and the other from the Indian sub-continent.
North African immigrants in France came after the war in Algeria and ended up working for the man and living in concrete ghettos.
In the UK most of the immigrants from Pakistan and Bangladesh, came and settled into communities largely made up of fellow countrymen.
Whereas the majority of French muslims and their descendants are still part of the working class and heavily discriminated against, the picture is very different in England where muslims there are often business owners and are represented in most types of jobs.
The French and the British are also two very different people and their approach to immigrants are almost opposites.
The French believe in becoming French by assimilation, which in a sense makes it hard if you are not ethnically, culturally and religiously European. Latent racism is exemplified by the election results of the far-right anti-immigration party the Front National.
The people of the UK behave very differently, they believe that people should be able live their lives pretty much how they want too. If that means spending your whole life in a Pakistani neighborhood well so be it, if you want to become a politician, a policeman or a banker the possibilities are there too. If you want to behave like any other brit they probably will let you. Just look at the results of the equivalent far-right party in the UK, the BNP, and tell me if they achieve up to 20% in national elections.
The environment for muslims in these two countries are very different. However, I doubt that if this poll was conducted in the UK you would get very different numbers.
As far as French muslims being better assimilated than their British counterpart, I doubt it, I must say that even if they were, that it has not helped them to become as important a part of French society as British muslims have in the UK.

[geek tragedy]

15. The Pew Center contrasted UK and French Muslims

http://pewresearch.org/obdeck/?ObDeckID=50

But findings from the latest Pew Global Attitudes Survey, which included over-samples of Muslims in four European countries,1 suggest that the French model can claim some success, however mixed. Some aspects of that relative success are especially striking when compared with the attitudes and experiences of Muslims in Great Britain, where police last week foiled a home-grown plot by Islamic terrorists to blow up U.S.-bound airliners.

However, even on the hot button issues of the Middle East, French Muslims depart company with others of their faith both in Europe and in the Muslim world. For example, French Muslims are evenly split on the question of the effect of the victory by the radical group Hamas in this year's Palestinian election, with 44% saying it was good for Palestinians and 46% judging it bad. By comparison, British Muslims weighed in lopsidedly on the positive side (56% 'good' vs. 18% 'bad') as did Spanish Muslims (57% vs. 22%).

Moreover, joined only by German Muslims in Europe, the French are heavily opposed (71%) to the acquisition of nuclear weapons by Iran. British Muslims, in contrast, are evenly split on the subject.

And while the majority of Muslims in all four European countries surveyed say they have little or no confidence in Osama bin Laden, French Muslims are virtually unanimous (93%) in their disdain. (By comparison, 68% of British Muslims submit a vote of no confidence in the Al Qaeda leader.)

FigureMost striking, however, is the difference between the views that French Muslims hold about people of other faiths and the views held by Muslims elsewhere in Europe and in predominantly Muslim countries. French Muslims even top the general publics in the United States and France in favorable ratings of Christians (91% of French Muslims vs. 88% of Americans and 87% of the French take that view).

But what most distinguishes French Muslims from their co-religionists not only in the Muslim world but in Europe, is their attitude toward Jews. Fully 71% of French Muslims express a positive view of people of the Jewish faith, compared with only 38% of German Muslims, 32% of British Muslims, 28% of Spanish Muslims and still lower numbers in the predominantly Muslim countries surveyed. In this, Muslims reflect the view of the larger French public among whom fully 86% express a favorable opinion of Jews, a higher proportion than even than among the American public.

But what most distinguishes French Muslims among others in Europe are their self-perceptions. Few Muslims living in France see a natural conflict between being a devout Muslim and living in a modern society. Seven-in-ten French Muslims (72%) perceive no such conflict, a view shared by a virtually identical 74%-share of the French general public. In Great Britain, however, Muslims split evenly (47% see a conflict, 49% do not) while only 35% of the British general public see no inherent conflict between devotion to Islam and adaptation to a modern society.

Moreover, when asked whether they consider themselves as a national citizen first or as a Muslim first, French Muslims split relatively evenly (42% vs. 46%) on the issue. Not only is this remarkably different from Muslims elsewhere in Europe (fully 81% of British Muslims self-identify with their religion rather than their nationality, for example) but it is remarkably close to the responses given by Americans when asked whether they identify first as national citizens or as Christians (48% vs. 42%). Perhaps in this, as in other things, Muslims living in France are indeed absorbing the secular ways of their countrymen, among whom fully 83% self-identify with their nationality, rather than their religion.

[passy]

16. Looking at a study is very different to reality.

Even in the study there is evidence for what I talked about.

"Most Muslims in France feel very French -- but they feel that the French don't see them that way, because they may look Arab or black…. Surveys suggest that Muslims are generally more conservative for example on issues such as sexuality and marriage... the fraction of Muslims actively practicing their religion in France is only 10 percent, which is very similar to that of practicing Catholics.
- Catherine Wihtol de Wenden, immigration specialist and research director, Center for International Studies and Research, Paris"

"This perception of welcome persists despite the fact that French Muslims are somewhat more likely than those in other European countries to report that they have had a bad experience attributable to their race, ethnicity or religion. Nearly four-in-ten Muslims (37%) in France report such incidents, compared with 28% in Britain, 25% in Spain and 19% in Germany. Younger French Muslims are more likely to report a bad experience -- 40% of those under age 35 compared with 31% of those age 35 or older."

This passage is analyzing the data as it wants to:

"On this one question, however, some evidence of a growing Islamic identity among younger French Muslims appears. Among those under age 35, many of them French by birth, only 40% self-identify primarily as French while 51% self-identify first as Muslim, while 7% say both equally. Among those 35 and older, 45% self-identify with their nationality, 36% as Muslims and 16% as both equally."

You could just as well see it as a failure to make young French Muslims feel like they really are citizens in a country that generally does not look favorably upon them.

As far as the view of other religions it is completely stupid to not compare it to the view of non-muslims in that country.

The report finishes by stating "All in all, one might conclude that, despite their problems -- prime among them joblessness among youth generally, not just Muslim youth -- the French need take no integrationist lessons from their European neighbors."

Intergrationist sounds so f...ing racist.
What does that mean, if you gonna live here you better be like us!
Why? What does that achieve, are they also gonna tell the Italians and the Spanish to stop using olive oil in their cooking because in France they use butter.
The whole idea of integrationism is sickening, it is racist and xenophobic.
A country like France should be ashamed of the way they treat their immigrants, being a country made up of countless waves of immigrants dating back more than 2000 years.
According to the study you mention muslims amount to almost 10% of the population, if you add to that immigrants of other faiths we are looking at a huge number and yet they have no political presence and very little cultural influence.
I think the main difference between the UK and France is tolerance. The British are tolerant of each other, they are less quick to judge someone according to their appearance or their behavior, and if they don't like you, well they will just let you be. The French however are extremely judgmental, their first impression is often what they go on. They like to categorize and to them if you look Arab then you probably are from Algeria, a muslim, unemployed and smoke hash. Now that's dramatizing things a bit, but it's not far from the truth.

So I think that the Pew study misses a couple of issues as it concentrates on the integration issue, as if it was something positive.
They fail to look at the larger picture, they fail to ask the main question which is "How good do you feel you life is?".

[geek tragedy]

18. The numbers speak for themselves.

UK Muslims are much more anti-semitic and intolerant, and less patriotic than French Muslims.

[passy]

19. This is going around in circles.

I debated your first post which stated that French Muslims "have been much more culturally assimilated" than their UK counterpart by basically pointing out that even if they were their place in society was marginalized politically, economically and socially.
You produced a study which concentrates on Integrationism as a positive method for dealing with immigration, a position which I argued was racist and xenophobic.
You now come back with a simple childish statement that "numbers speak for themselves" and that "UK Muslims are much more anti-semitic and intolerant, and less patriotic than French Muslims." which you seem to produce to justify your first post relating to cultural assimilation.
Now we have no idea from the study how anti-semitic the rest of British society is so we can therefore stop using the numbers from that study for now, because for all we know British Muslims are as anti-semitic as the rest of the British population, I doubt it but I don't have the numbers so I can't say for sure.
I am appalled by your second point regarding patriotism as a measure of the level of assimilation and integration of a group of people; what the hell is that supposed to mean?
Lack of patriotism is a relative notion at best and as you know it is used by the govt at every opportunity in its propaganda to attack its critics.
Throughout history people have blended together, influencing each other, learning for each other; it is only recently that countries, that previously were opened to immigration or were historically born out of a melting pot, decided that its population should be homogeneous and not multicultural.
I would say that the UK has managed to allow its immigrants to take part in the cultural make up of the country to a much larger extent than France has. Instead of trying to make them British it has allowed itself to take on what it liked best from their cultures.
Please stop pointing to that Pew report, it's well intentioned but flawed as it concentrates on issues like patriotism and religion as factors that might influence how well a society functions. The report fails to identify and quantify the quality of life of these different Muslim groups, that is to say what is it like to be from Algerian descent in France or Pakistani origins in the UK in terms of social acceptance and self-worth.
I would welcome further discussion on whether the integration and assimilation of immigrants is a positive or a negative way to deal with immigration but please let it be based on your personal opinion rather than a report.

[geek tragedy]

20. Integrationism is not racist and xenophobic.

What is racist and xenophobic is the idea that because someone is born somewhere else, they can't be considered a 'real' Briton or 'real' Italian.

There needs to be some common thread amongst different cultural and ethnic groups--some cultural bond that holds all of them together.

France has worked very hard to make sure that there is such a bond. In the UK, you have Muslims being practically encouraged to view themselves on the outside and not as true Brits. The UK also did themselves no favor by waiting too long to crack down on the extremists amongst UK Muslims who were recruiting people for jihad.

[passy]

21. Now this is grasping at straws.

What France has done and continues doing is similar to what the Soviets did.
Their educational model from the very beginning in kindergarten is aimed at making citizens, not individuals.
The concept of the citizen and of decentralization of power dates back to the Revolution and Napoleon.
The idea was to make France a country of similar-minded citizens, to make everyone equal. It was a true social revolution at the time as it followed centuries of feudalism.
Now this concept has been thrown at of the window. People are no more equal now than they were under Louis the XVIth. Capitalism and elitism has led the country down the path of feudalism once again.
The serfs of today are mostly immigrants and their descendants, along with the ethnically French lower working class.
Descendants of immigrants that have been taught in France and have been processed through the citizen programming of the French education system live in a constant dilemma. They learned that all French citizens are supposedly equal and yet their life experience teaches them another more painful reality. They will never be treated as being "real" French and they will never be welcomed as Algerians in Algeria for example.
Like the revolutionaries of 68 who felt they were excluded from decision making by the govt, the riots last year, served to highlight the plight of the young people who live in the "Citées" and their feeling that they do not belong and have no say about their future.
The bonding of French society is an illusion. The hierarchal class system is ferocious. The upper class which is Paris based has utter disdain for the rest of the country and for the lower classes. All decision making power is in the hands of a few men who have attended the same couple of universities and work hand in hand to control France.
Now maybe you meant that what bonds immigrants, their descendants and the rest of the French population is that they are all getting screwed by their govt.
Now lets talk about Britain which is made up of four separate countries. The english who are in a majority have seen most aspects of their culture adopted by all the other countries in the union. They are now left with but a few remaining symbols of their traditional culture which they can proudly call theirs and theirs alone. The new English culture, with varying degrees according to levels of urbanism, however is multicultural.
You talk about cracking down on extremists as if France never had too or that the recruiting of young people for jihad is not taking place there.
The problem is more obvious in the UK as radical Muslims have greater freedom to express their views and the financial laws of the country make it easier for foreign elements to finance them.
You seem to forget that France experienced a wave of bombings by radical Muslim extremists not much longer than 10 years ago, and that the only person charged for the 9/11 attacks is French.
Now this will be my last post about the subject as you seem to only reply to my posts by baseless remarks.
I stop now because I found your comment that "There needs to be some common thread among st different cultural and ethnic groups--some cultural bond that holds all of them together." just shows that we have incompatible views as I believe that any society should be based on tolerance, equality and open-mindedness instead of multiculturalism.

[retread]

12. Effects of modernity. See "The End of Faith" Sam Harris n/t

[Miss Chybil]

17. The poll of 513 Muslims...selected from a nationwide sample of 15,000

I wonder how they selected them?

Assuming the poll is accurate, though, I would say French Muslims aren't much different from Catholics, or any Christians for that matter, or any other followers of a religious faith when it comes to practicing their religion. Some really "get into it," some follow the rites because it is in their culture to do so, (i.e. I do Christmas, but I am not a Christian), and some disagree with the teachings, but they still consider themselves part of the faith, (i.e. Catholics, and/or Mormons, who use birth control.)