Democrats Sit Out Detainee Debate

[ECH1969]

WASHINGTON - Congressional Democrats are sitting out an explosive debate on how to treat the nation's most dangerous terrorism suspects, bypassing a chance to challenge President Bush on a proposal that has infuriated international law experts and human rights groups.

The reasons are fraught with politics: They don't have to join in, and they could regret it if they did.

Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said Wednesday that Democrats were "on the sidelines watching the catfights" among Republicans on terrorism legislation.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/28-09212006-716038.html

[mom cat]

1. God damn ... This keep your powder dry mentality is insane!

I know they are afraid of saying anything that might be used against them. I am sure that "good Germans" were afraid of the same thing!

[Tesha]

2. Ya see, there's this big warehouse in Biden, Delaware...

Ya see, there's this big warehouse in Biden, Delaware and it's
just more full of it (powder!) every day! Some day, when they
find just the right issue to use it upon, there's just gonna
be one hella explosion!

Tesha

[mom cat]

6. They will find that while they were pissing away their power that

they pissed all over their powder, ruining it forever!

[acmejack]

4. They are cowards and simply abandoning us.

Still. I despair at their unwillingness to engage the enemy. All they hang their hat on is that we are not them. Anyone who dares stand up and oppose the GOP is abandoned by the rest of them, I can only deem them afraid, there can no longer be any strategy other than self preservation-they love their political power and station. They really care nothing for us other than mouthing platitudes and asking for our hard earned money. It is but a game to them, while it is our lives and well being that is being drained away.

They have their millions and a fine retirement, excellent health care and their welfare is ensured. They are unwilling to fight for us and watch and do nothing as what few rights we have are stripped away from us, our social safety net is cut away, our livelihoods are destroyed and our children and national treasure are sacrificed to a voracious military machine. In fact they are willing participants in much of the rapine horror being perpetrated upon us.

[gully]

19. They are staying out of the debate for now, don't let the corporate

media fool you.

With November elections for control of Congress just weeks away, Democrats are letting a handful of Republican senators battle the Bush administration over the legal fine points of the White House detainee plan in hopes the GOP will bloody itself on the top-tier issue of security.

and

Republicans have hoped the president's plan would put Democrats in a tough spot. Democrats would have to choose between supporting the president or explaining why they voted not to prosecute hardened terrorists, a position that could make them easy targets for 30-second attack ads charging they are soft on terror.

But Democrats so far have been able to sidestep that minefield. Providing cover is Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., and a few other Republicans who have questioned the moral grounds of the president's plan.

McCain and Sens. John Warner, R-Va., and Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., oppose sections of the administration's bill related to classified evidence and interpretation of Geneva Convention standards of prisoner treatment. As of late Wednesday, the two sides remained locked in negotiations, making unclear whether the bill would reach the Senate floor by next week, which is expected to be the final week before lawmakers recess for the midterm elections.

This is smart strategy!

[davekriss]

39. Wonderful

So once again politics trumped principle. That's how we got in this mess in the first place. What the U.S. truly needs is principled leadership. Know of any?

[gully]

42. It's not a matter of choosing one over the other.

But our principals are useless if we don't first win.

[davekriss]

56. No that's a ends justifies the means argument

An argument used by our opposition. A consistent, principled roar from our party would be as a tsunami, clearing Washington of corrupt vermin and leaving behind principled politicians capable of reconstructing what is right and true. What we've had now is 6 years of appeasement resulting in deepening consolidation of power in the hands of our enemy, war dead that exceeds the 9-11 deaths in NYC, a looted treasury, and unchallenged policies and precedent that will arm any tyrant to the teeth to continue a trajectory of blood and mayhem and madness.

We need to find another way.

[Wretched Refuse]

61. OHHH, you mean like they did

in 1776. Oh I see. EXPUNGE the corporate body politic, and institute rationale fact based government. No more witch dunkings right? Actually it is very interesting to see the parallels between this argument and the Torture argument on a whole. We must push away our principles of rule of law and decency to get down in the dirt like the enemy, to be able to fight this boogeyman enemy. That is the mantra of the Reichwing nutcrats. The unprincipled use any means neccessarry, expecailly the ones like Karl et al, use against us (swiftboating, lying, etc) is OK as long as WE win. But, in the end, we loose if we give up our principles to get there. SO, in effect, we loose the war if we stoop to the level of the enemy.

[gully]

78. NO one is suggesting we sacrifice principal.

THAT is a strawman. I suggest we let them finish bloodying one another and then, we can start our loud chorus of dissent.

[davekriss]

83. I am not sure I know what you're trying to say

but I suspect you don't understand what I said. I INSIST we follow the rule of law, that ends do not justify unprincipled, immoral means. Where do you see that I've said otherwise?

[gully]

77. No it isn't. Where did we sacrifice principal?

That is a strawman and an inaccurate one at that. We don't have to sacrifice principal to be intelligent about how we run our campaigns. I do agree we need a firmer/smarter opposition "strategy" to win however.

[davekriss]

80. Where?

IWR. Relative silence in the torture debate. Need more?

[davekriss]

81. Where is the Democratic consistent roar

againt the militarization of America? Against torture from El Salvador in 1979 to Irag in 2006? Where is the consistent, persistent roar againt the false claims for war? We've had some voice, but not a unitary voice that takes every opportunity to speak truth to the tyrannical power now at the helm, regardless of consesequences. Whatever "strategy" we've had in place -- sure has been working for us, hasn't it? I just don't see principled leadership across our party, just scattered (heroic) voices.

[davekriss]

82. That "intelligence" you tout...

...sure has been working swell for us, huh? We've lost the Presidency, the Senate, the House, the judicial system, the press -- what have we left to lose? I say speak principled truth to power regardless of what the political consultants say will be the consequences. The time is getting late. We ARE a reprise of Wiemar Republic of 1934.

[davekriss]

86. See response above (eom)

[Auntie Bush]

51. Seems to me we have to win an election BEFORE we practice

our principles. :shrug:

[davekriss]

57. See response above

Our strategy of appeasment (toward our Republican enemy) sure has been winning us seats left and right, huh? Einstien defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. Appeasement, sacrificing principles for the politically expedient (what is often perceived to be expedient and turns out to be destructive) has gotten us nothing but a Republican White House, a Republican Senate, a Republican House, a Republican judiciary, and a Republican press. Winning strategy, isn't it, this swimming without a backbone these past years.

[Jawja]

59. Agreed.

Repugs will win on this no matter what because they've got the votes. Once McCain CAVES IN (didn't he do that yesterday?), the Repugs will rally around TORTURE and KANGAROO COURTS just to prove that they are strong on terror; they will then pass a heinous inhumane and immoral piece of legislation that will violate international treaties and paint us as a bunch of thugs and bullies.

AND the dumbass uneducated lazy 'Merkin people will rally around the tough talkin' cowboy and go right to the polls and re-elect the enablers of this criminal government. Except, if the Repugs give that thug bastard what he wants they will be just as GUILTY of war crimes as he is.

[davekriss]

85. Seems to me we have to...

...defend our principles before we'll win an election. Chicken or egg. I'll die principled and lose before unprincipled and lose. Time for a change in strategy.

[primavera]

79. Hear, hear!

I understand the calculus of not wanting to estrange voters, but what on earth makes these Vichy Dems believe that standing for absolutely nothing is ever going to impress voters? When given a choice between evils, most people will simply go with the evil they know; you have to present yourself as an alternative to the status quo. Trying to just quietly blend into the woodwork in the hopes that no one will notice you works: no one will notice you.

[davekriss]

84. I'm with you, KevinJ (eom)

[Auntie Bush]

50. Well stated and so true.

[BrendaStarr]

24. Do we ever think about the falling poll numbers?

While we sit here dragging down our own people, do we ever wonder if doing this continually (say as opposed to going out, getting a blog and using it to advance our issues and ideas instead of destroying our own candidates and driving those who can win office out of the Democratic party while actually making money from ads) is the reason we are losing support even this year?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

45. Oh waah.

They're being fucking politicians. If you look to politicians as your icons of courage, I... I don't know where to begin explaining what's wrong with that idea.

[Dan]

87. The Democrats are a minority party

...and really, they have no say.

Nothing can happen to change the direction of this nation, until the Congress changes.

[magellan]

7. What mom cat said.

I'm really, REALLY tired of them putting politics before basic principles.

[gully]

18. I think it's the right strategy. If we come into this fight it becomes

"democrats don't want to protect america." This way the stepford republicans actually have to "think" about this issue.

It's a no brainer, Go Harry!

Republicans have hoped the president's plan would put Democrats in a tough spot. Democrats would have to choose between supporting the president or explaining why they voted not to prosecute hardened terrorists, a position that could make them easy targets for 30-second attack ads charging they are soft on terror.

But Democrats so far have been able to sidestep that minefield.

Ta da! Strategy people, get it? This is politics, and smart politics at that. It's about damn time we learned how to "fight smart!"

[VegasWolf]

22. Gee, and the Democrats are perceived as gutless! Wonder why! nt

[Omaha Steve]

3. Let them fight it out between themselves

It seems we Democrats do that a lot.

[Wretched Refuse]

62. BUt then we end up

with a crappy bill that is defined and worded by them, for them, at the expense of us.
WTF!
Ya go in, and say something about the ELEPHANT in the room.
HELLLO! Torture is BAD! IT YIELDS NO USEFUL INFORMATION. THE REASON WE WENT INTO IRAW WAS SUPPOSEDLY BECAUSE SADDAM WAS A TORTURER. HELLLO! Of course that was only after it was proven that there was no WMD, and his army crumbled. But I digress.

[mcar]

5. I think this is the right strategy

As soon as the Dems get into it, Rove and Co can turn it into a "democrats are soft on terror" issue. They can't do that now, at least with this issue, because it's their own people objecting.

It's also kind of an "of course we're against this. Why do we even have to dignify the issue with an answer" strategy.

[Tesha]

8. Let me see if I understand this....

> I think this is the right strategy

Let me see if I understand this....

We have a fellow from Canada who now has an 800 page report
from the Canadian judiciary supporting his claim that the Bush
Administration illegally held him and rendered him over to the
Syrians and Jordanians who then tortured the gentleman, until
he was eventually released because there *WASN'T ONE SHRED OF
VALID INTELLIGENCE ABOUT HIM*, ...

... A fellow whom the Canadian government is about to formally
apologize to...

...A fellow whom Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez denies knowing
anything about even though Gonzalez and his justice department
were directly sued by the fellow over two years ago (and Gonzales
got the case dismissed on "national security" grounds)...

...And you think there's *NOTHING* that the Democrats can
say about any of this that would help our cause?

The American democracy really is dead, isn't it?

Tesha

[Wretched Refuse]

63. And prey tell

why can they NOT just turn it around and say now, the Dems didn;t have the backbone or will to get into an argument about how to better potect us, THAT is why they cannot be trusted with protecting the gov. THAT is why this is not about do we do it or not, We HAVE TO STAND BY OUR PRINCIPLES, as our ations will twisted by Karl the nutfuck to whatever ends he wishes, so WE HAVE TO STAND FOR WHAT WE BELEIVE IN. NOT THINK WE HAVE THE UPPER HAND BY NOT GETTING IN THE MIX.
THIS IS JUST THE DLC PLAYING INTO THE CORPORO-FASCIST REGIN OF TERROR.

[eallen]

9. It's sad when politics prevents saying "I'm against torture"

[Punkingal]

10. I have nothing but contempt for Harry Reid..

This is not a time to stand on the sidelines watching a cat fight. It is a time to stand up for America, and for what is right. The Democratic leadership is disgusting and cowardly. And not very smart, either.

[theguvnorgc]

13. How long...?

Can we continue to support this Party if they won't take a stand?

[Mind Snapper]

58. They do take a stand

their stand is to give liberals soemone they can vote for will enable the fascist Establishment agenda.

And, really, that answers the "How long...?" part, don't it?

[AtomicKitten]

11. This issue is reminiscent of the IWR and DOMA,

both erected before elections to hamstring the Democrats. Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Hey, I've got an idea. Maybe the Dems should just do the right thing and blow this insanity right out of the water. For once, the Dems need to dispel the "Dems are weak on terror" meme and make it the "Repubs are wrong on terror." This is a moral issue and Dems need to come out strong on it and become leaders.

[wellst0nev0ter]

16. I Was Thinking The Same Thing

How did ceding the Iraq War argument to the Repukes in order to "win" the 2002 midterms help Democrats then? I swear, both parties are insane, the Republicans because they are evil and the Democrats because they keep doing the same things over and over again while expecting different results.

[AtomicKitten]

25. well said

and I absolutely, completely agree.

[Moochy]

29. Amen!!

:yourock: We agree 100% (for once? :shrug: ) :D

[AtomicKitten]

30. woo-hoo

[ECH1969]

38. yup

[nosmokes]

12. once again i watch as the DLC led democratic party snatches defeat from

the jaws of victory. if you think simply not being republican is going to be enough to win even one house of congress i think you're wrong. bushco has the media manipulation battalion, the whole god squad thing, the oil barons lowering the price of gasoline and heating oil (until mid-november anyhow) and you know there's gonna be another spectacular terrorist plot foiled in the weeks just before the votes are counted on electronic voting machines w/o any sort of paper trail. so it's not enough for the dems to win, they hafta win big enough that there is no doubt about the outcome.

[ShortnFiery]

14. I hope these gutless wonders remember that we will not forget this

when we cast our votes in their next Democratic Primary. :grr: :thumbsdown:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

15. ENOUGH WITH THIS CRAP!

If you don't have the political and moral will to stand up and say loudly and proudly that you are against the US using torture on detainees, then you have proven yourself unworthy of the office you have been elected to, and unworthy of my support,

Cowards! You are nothing but moral COWARDS! :mad: :mad:

Fuck Reid!

There are times in a country's history when it is the right thing to take a stand and, goddamit, this is one of them. Every Dem in the House and Senate should be screaming fucking bloody murder about our use of torture and the attempt to exonerate Bush & Co. from crinminal prosecution through legislation. They should be heaping scorn upon the Republicans who are backing this monstrosity. They should be shaming them for the monsters they are.

Instead, we're sitting it out again, and history will look back and say that the Democratic Party just twiddled it's thumbs when it came time to call out the Bush Administration the twisting of the Geneva Conventions. :puke:

Grow. A. Fucking. SPINE!

[Miss Chybil]

44. I think I'm going anti-incumbent this year. nt

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

46. If you're that fed up with it...

...why not run for office yourself?

[manic expression]

48. Is that a serious question?

It's called: $$$$$

There are other reasons.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

49. It's a serious suggestion.

I suggest it to anyone who's never experienced politics at that level. It can be quite eye-opening, especially considering the way it warps concepts like "honor" and "cowardice."

[manic expression]

52. That's unfortunate

Being a part of politics may teach someone about politics, but it doesn't negate the fact that a.) you need money to seriously be a part of the system and b.) it doesn't change the fact that you should, you know, oppose torture.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

73. Nobody here is supporting torture.

I'd hope you would understand that. What I take issue with is many people in this thread oppose not only torture, but the concept of "politics."

[manic expression]

76. Some here excuse the refusal to oppose it

which cannot be understood. The issue here is that you can play politics while having a shred of decency, and in this case that's not too much to ask.

[The Stranger]

17. Waitaminute -- it's Dick Durbin, who apologized for condemning Gitmo.

"Max Cleland - having lost three limbs in Vietnam - thought the voters in Georgia wouldn't fall for" such charges, the Senate's No. 2 Democrat, Richard Durbin, said Wednesday. "They did and he lost his Senate seat. We're not going to make that same mistake."

Now the Dick Durbin is on the record twice for being complicit. Truly, he is an insult to all Democrats. Check that: Durbin is an insult to insults.

[gully]

20. Good, as they should!

Republicans have hoped the president's plan would put Democrats in a tough spot. Democrats would have to choose between supporting the president or explaining why they voted not to prosecute hardened terrorists, a position that could make them easy targets for 30-second attack ads charging they are soft on terror.

But Democrats so far have been able to sidestep that minefield. Providing cover is Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., and a few other Republicans who have questioned the moral grounds of the president's plan.

McCain and Sens. John Warner, R-Va., and Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., oppose sections of the administration's bill related to classified evidence and interpretation of Geneva Convention standards of prisoner treatment. As of late Wednesday, the two sides remained locked in negotiations, making unclear whether the bill would reach the Senate floor by next week, which is expected to be the final week before lawmakers recess for the midterm elections.

Fighting smart, I like it!

[knight_of_the_star]

55. It's not fighting smart

It's forfeiting the initiative. The Dems could have and should have grabbed this issue by the horns and started screaming at the top of their lungs that the GOP is debating with itself how much torture is ok. They should have pointed out that torture is flat-out wrong and incredibly ineffective. They should have been the ones pointing out that ignoring or re-interpreting the Geneva Conventions puts our troops in harms way. Instead it's people like John McCain who are doing that, making statements like, "It could cost me the presidency in '08" and walking away looking good. There was a golden opportunity to nail the GOP if the Dems were willing to play smart AND tough, but they fumbled and let the GOP pick up the ball again.

[Wretched Refuse]

64. THIS IS THE STUPIDEST MEME EVER

"Democrats would have to choose between supporting the president or explaining why they voted not to prosecute hardened terrorists"

How about the Dems have to NOW explain why they DID NOT come to the aid of their country and oppose all calls for torture. The above stupid fucking meme, is just the DLC output of crappy politics to keep the Dems OUT OF POWER. STOP LISTENING TO THE DLC. The WHOLE PATH TO 911 WAS DLC DRIVEN TO GET DEMS WHO WERE STARTING TO MOVE AWAY FROM CENTER TO RIGHT LEANING DEMS 9JOE LIEberMAN loosing to Lamont) and PROVIDE PROOF TO THE REPUBS BACKING THE DLC, THAT THEY TRULY WERE STILL IN CONTROL OF THE PARTY. EXPUNGE THE FUCKING DLC FROM THIS PARTY.

[Liberal Dose]

21. The reason is explained in the article

...Republicans have hoped the president's plan would put Democrats in a tough spot. Democrats would have to choose between supporting the president or explaining why they voted not to prosecute hardened terrorists, a position that could make them easy targets for 30-second attack ads charging they are soft on terror.

But Democrats so far have been able to sidestep that minefield. Providing cover is Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., and a few other Republicans who have questioned the moral grounds of the president's plan.

McCain and Sens. John Warner, R-Va., and Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., oppose sections of the administration's bill related to classified evidence and interpretation of Geneva Convention standards of prisoner treatment. As of late Wednesday, the two sides remained locked in negotiations, making unclear whether the bill would reach the Senate floor by next week, which is expected to be the final week before lawmakers recess for the midterm elections...

I keep forgetting that not everyone has access to the wealth of facts that we enjoy. Sadly, those who depend on television, radio and the local paper are easily fooled. :(

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

47. I find it freaking hilarous.

This whole thread, I mean. This entire bill is just a political fabrication by the White House in the first place. They've got no intention of changing their procedures regardless of what Congress tells them to do, and if they don't get their way 100% they'll just keep the new proposed sheme tied up in the courts forever anyway.

Yet people here actually seem to be taking this vote seriously... as if the Admin would ever actually allow a legitimate vote on this!

The ONLY reason this bill is under debate right now - the ONLY reason, was as a political trap for the Democrats. And right now they're avoiding that trap. And all of the monday morning quarterbacks here can go fuck themselves, as far as I'm concerned. Welcome to politics, bubba. This is how it works, and this is why it's hell.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RangerSmith]

71. so are you just positioning yourself to swallow this

bullshit once the vote happens and our Democratic House members go along with it or do you really believe that we shouldn't vote against it?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

72. Who said anything about the actual vote?

I was talking about their behaviour vis a vis the republicans fighting about it RIGHT NOW.

Edit: OK, I did say something about the actual vote. I think I need to clarify my position a bit. The optimum outcome is the bill getting voted down, with some republicans on board. In fact, that's the only outcome where the bill actually gets defeated.

I have no problem with the democrats hiding from this if they can't get the votes to kill it.

[Singular73]

23. Democrats are too weak to take an ANTI TORTURE STANCE?

Forget it. I'm taking my ball and going home. Fuck em.

Let this country rot.

[EarthNeedsHope]

26. That's how they authorized the war against Iraq in 2002

All partisan politics. Damn it.

[chill_wind]

27. This is not political or moral leadership. This is not moral character.

This is not leadership AT ALL. It is pure self-preserving political and moral cowardice.

But then again, it comes again as no new surprise. Far too many of their number have been an aquiescent part of the abysmal political and moral mess all along.

[RangerSmith]

32. and of course when whatever vote

comes up finally comes up, we'll meet behind closed doors and decide who needs to vote for and against so we can please the home constituents.

It's all pretty sickening.

[depakid]

28. Punting away the issues and hoping to win by default

Frankly, I've come to the conclusion that the so called "leadership" really doesn't want to win- nor does it deserve to.

I won't be a bit surprised if they lose a 7th straight Congressional election this November. If they do- they'll certainly have earned the loss by their behavior this year.

[Wretched Refuse]

66. And if they...in fact either way

I think Harry needs to fucking go. His Harry Truman-esc politics is REALLY irritating, and we someone with more fire and brimstone talk to put up there. AND NOT OHBLAMAM, He is a fucking OREO if there ever was one. AND THE DLC LOVES HIM.

[President Jesus]

31. and we wonder why people say "they have no ideas"

It's stupid for people to say that, I know, but we all know most Americans do not pay much attention to the news, let alone political news. The more our guys ride the bench on high profile topics, the easier it is for the GOP to sell tens of millions of voters on the bunk that Democrats have no ideas...or worse yet, are not prepared to lead.

[THUNDER HANDS]

33. fight the fights that matter

detainee torture is not going to win you any votes come November, so what's in it for them to engage in this debate?

[MisterP]

41. torture doesn't "matter"? or are we pretending Americans will be repelled

and not vote for a party working for human rights?

[KansDem]

34. "the nation's most dangerous terrorism suspects"--Really?

How do we know they are "the nation's most dangerous terrorism suspects?" 70-90 percent of Iraqis rounded up in sweeps to glean information are innocent, according to Pres. Jimmy Carter quoting the Red Cross and Army Intelligence statistics.

But we know for certain that those who are tortured are "the nation's most dangerous terrorism suspects?"

And how can you be "the nation's most dangerous" if you are only suspected of something?

Talk about poor reporting...talk about whoring for the Bushistas...

[chill_wind]

35. This discussion needs kicked. Hard!

And only 6 recommends???

[ECH1969]

36. Moderate Republicans are more an opposition party then dems

[chill_wind]

37. Meanwhile....!! While they play a deadly game of possum....

See this DUer pat_K thread... must reading!

War Crimes Protection Act -- "opposition" IGNORES most destructive part

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2190505

[creeksneakers2]

40. It doesn't have to be either/or

The latest polls show Americans favor following the Geneva Conventions to Bush's torture something like 58% to 32%. If Democrats frame the issue as one of following international law, they win.

I haven't heard anybody up there say anything about countries refusing to cooperate with us if we don't follow the law. That's a point that could be raised.

[countryjake]

43. Great strategy....

[LeahD]

53. I'm insensed. Why did they sit on the sidelines?

Now McCain and Warner are the strong guys, because Bush and Co. made some concessions? The Dems.....silent?!!! What is the strategy? I don't get it.

[LeahD]

54. P.S. Political posturing makes me ill. n/t

[Wretched Refuse]

60. THe smell of the DLC is soooo

nauseating.

[Doremus]

67. The more I think about it, the more I think this was a Kkkarl boobytrap.

Think about it. The bill changed nothing. McPain polished his populist persona, but once again he kissed and made up and we're right back at status quo.

Had Dems jumped into the fray, how many 30-sec attack ads would now be playing in a city near you?

I'm as frustrated as anyone with the Dems' perceived penchant for retaining wall flower status, but this MAY have been one minefield they were smart to avoid.

Then again, they might all really be a bunch of limp noodles. Who knows. I do know is it's pretty darned difficult to set agendas with a boot on your neck.

WHEN, not if, we take back Congress, however, the Milquetoasts damned well better turn into wildcats or I'm done.

[Le Taz Hot]

68. THIS, boys and girls

is why I and many others stopped being Democrats in 2004. We've taken unbelievable amounts of shit on this very board (and still do) for it. How many times have the progressives screamed: "There's a moral imperative here!" and few listened because who listens to "traitors" or, worse yet, "Greens?" Are we FINALLY starting to wake up here?????? Finally??????

[LibDemAlways]

69. Harry, if you don't stand for something, you

stand for nothing. This just gives the repukes the opportunity to run with the meme that the Dems have no ideas. Is that better than the meme that the Dems are weak on security? No matter what the Dems say or do, the repukes have a ready response.

Why not just take a principled stand? Frame it as the moral issue it is. Torture is wrong. It doesn't work. Our willingness to torture will come back to bite us in the ass when our guys are tortured. Torturing makes us less safe. This is the United States of America, not some rogue state. We don't torture.

A united, reasoned Dem response would be a hell of a lot more effective than standing on the sidelines hoping against hope the repukes bloody themselves in a catfight.

[rocktivity]

70. BORG JOURNALISM! (Resistance to the GOP is futile...)

Reid is right--Dems SHOULD keep their mouths shut until they know exactly what the Repubs are putting on the table. Can't you tell that stories like this are just part of the "Dems are weak on defense" strategy?

:headbang:
rocknation

[Triana]

74. Why don't they just sit out their entire tenure and go the f*ck home

:mad:

[MissMillie]

75. As if the GOP or the White House would actually work w/ the Dems anyway...

It was fun watching them hash shit out though, wasn't it.

NPR described the compromise as a 55-45 win in favor of the White House.