Castro: Socialism Will Survive in Cuba

[Osolomia]

Dec 6, 2003

By ANDREA RODRIGUEZ, Associated Press Writer

CARDENAS, Cuba - President Fidel Castro (news - web sites) insisted Friday that his socialist system will survive him, as he celebrated the 10th birthday of Elian Gonzalez — the shipwrecked boy who was the center of a fierce international custody battle.

Castro characterized as "idiots" those who believe that socialist rule on the island will end with his death.

"This revolution does not depend on one individual, or two, or three," Castro declared in a speech of more than two hours at a birthday celebration in the courtyard of Elian's school in the child's hometown of Cardenas, about 85 miles east of Havana.

Speaking about a meeting he said occurred earlier Friday in Washington between Cuban Americans and U.S. officials, Castro said "that group of idiots ... would die of bitterness, of frustration and even shock to see how this country has resisted 45 years of blockade."

... During his speech Friday night, Castro characterized the U.S. government as "monstrous."

But he said he didn't put the American people in that same category. "No one can blame them for the system they live in," Castro said.

More...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=589&ncid=734&e=4&u=/ap/20031206/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cuba_elian_s_birthday

[mobuto]

1. Right

When Castro dies, that giant sucking sound you'll hear will be the sound of every Cubano in Dade County returning.

[Osolomia]

2. Dream on!

Hundreds of thousands of "exiles" who supposedly fled for their lives already freely travel back and forth to Cuba each year, the USA's travel ban does not apply to them.

No doubt few are willing to give up the preferential treatment they receive from the USA and be treated like everyone else.

[Mika]

6. Once again, mobuto, you prove..

.. that you know absoloutely nothing about Cuban-Americans.

[mobuto]

63. Ok, I know nothing about Cuban-Americans

Therefore, since you are so obviously well informed, explain to me what you know of them and why my estimation was so wrong.

I look forward to your instruction with zeal, and not altogether without relish.

Many thanks,

M.

[Judi Lynn]

65. I have some information about Miami Cuban-Americans

The first refers to Jorge Mas Canosa, an inflated bag of hot air, obsessed with the belief he was important, who seemed to climb to the top of the heap of Cuban "exiles" in Miami:

(snip) 1/20/92 1/31/92 Jorge Mas Canosa and executives at the Miami Herald trade charges in the paper. In a published letter, Mas Canosa writes that the newspaper has shown "a marked insensitivity to the Cuban American community" and calls on Cuban American staff to resign in protest. In reply Herald publisher David Lawrence writes in a column that "when you make wild and angry accusations, like some of this 'pro-Castro' garbage, you stir up the less well-intentioned and the more misguided." Over the next several weeks, the Herald offices and Lawrence personally receive numerous bomb threats and newspaper vending machines are vandalized with feces and other materials. Mas Canosa subsequently goes on the radio to compare the Herald to Cuba's Communist party newspaper Granma, and to accuse Lawrence of "intellectual terrorism." (AW)
(snip)

(snip) 8/1/92 8/31/92 Americas Watch publishes its first human rights report on a domestic U.S. situation--"the issue of freedom of expression in Miami's Cuban exile community." The report, "Dangerous Dialogue," documents the "violence and intimidation of dissident political voices in the Cuban American community in Miami. CANF is singled out for criticism for its efforts to suppress voices of dissent in Miami, through repeated efforts to close museums, and verbal assaults on newspapers, radio stations, and individuals with whom the Foundation disagrees. The report points out the U.S. government is supporting these activities by funding CANF through NED and Radio Marti. Among its recommendations are that "the National Endowment for Democracy should take steps to assure that its grant funds are not being used to support the suppression of freedom of expression," and that USIA "should take similar steps with respect to Radio Marti." (AW)
8/1/92 11/30/92 "Jorge has always had a well-established agenda of his own," warns Raul Masivdal, CANF co-creator and former friend of Mas Canosa. "He is on a quest to become the future dictator of Cuba. He is a monster in the making." (Time, 10/26/92) (snip)

(snip) 6/15/93 Ernesto Melendez, head of the Cuban State Committee on Economic Cooperation, states in an interview with a Cuban trade magazine (which is later picked up by the Associated Press) that Cuba is ready to negotiate with the U.S. regarding compensation for nationalized property in the broader context of talks to normalize relations. The following day the State Department responds saying, "The Cuban government has not approached us through official channels to discuss this subject. However, our long-standing position is that Americans are entitled to compensation for their expropriated properties, and that such compensation should be paid unconditionally. If the Cubans have a proposal in this regard, we would be interested in it." Jorge Mas Canosa states that the Cuban American National Foundation has no intentions of talking with Castro or his government: "This means the Torricelli bill is working...This means the embargo is working. This reflects the desperation of the Cuban government." (MH, 6/15/93 and 6/16/93)
(snip)

(snip) 2/18/94 The family engineering business owned by Jorge Mas Canosa has discussed investing nearly $ 200 million in hydroelectric power plant construction projects and purchasing a majority stake in Chengdu Machinery. Canosa is chairman of the company, Church and Tower Inc. and president of the Cuban American National Foundation, an anti-Castro organization. Church and Tower would have partners in companies controlled by the municipal government of Chengdu, the capital of Sichuan province, according to Jorge Mas Canosa Jr. But on Friday, a spokesman for the Mas family said nothing is final. Mas Jr., Church and Tower's president, acknowledged that the family would be in for political criticism. But he defended the discussions, saying the Chinese and Cuban governments are ''totally different.'' He cited economic freedom and increasing political democracy in China, but said Cuba languishes as a totalitarian state. Mas Jr. said he, not his father who opposes trade with Cuba, made the decision to discuss investing in China. (AP 2/18/94) (snip)

(snip)
2/24/94 Jorge Mas Jr. admits signing a letter of intent to do business with China, despite Mas senior's denials. (MH 2/24/94) (snip)

(snip) 7/1/94 7/31/94 The Miami Herald reprints an interview with Jorge Mas Canosa from the Spanish newspaper El Pais. Mas Canosa was asked by El Pais whether he believed Americans would take over Cuba if Fidel Castro fell. The Herald quoted Mas Canosa as saying, in part, "They haven't even been able to take over Miami! If we have kicked them out of here, how could they possibly take over our own country?" (MH, 7/28/94; WP, 7/28/94) (snip)

http://cuban-exile.com/doc_126-150/doc0146b.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

From an article discussing Cuban "exile" violence against Cuba during the years between 1990 and 2000:

September 17, l991: Two counter-revolutionaries from Miami infiltrate Cuba. Their mission is to sabotage tourist shops in order to spread terror amongst foreign visitors. Their weapons and a radio transmitter are confiscated.

(1)

December 29, 1991: Three terrorists from the so-called Commandos L Group in Miami enter Cuba illegally. Their weapons and other war materiel are confiscated.

These three had received insurgency training with 50 or 60 other men in a training camp on 168th Street in Miami.

May 8, 1992: Cuba files a complaint with the United Nations concerning terrorist activities expressly organized to harm its territory. At Cuba's request, a June 23, 1989 decision of the U.S. Department of Justice is circulated as an official Security Council document.

The decision states that Orlando Bosch is banned from entering U.S. territory, citing substantial proof of his past and present terrorist activities, including the 1976 blasting of a Cuban civil aviation plane in mid-flight. Today, this individual freely walks the streets of Miami after George H. Bush grants him a presidential pardon.

July 4, 1992: A group of terrorists sets out from the United States in order to attack economic targets along the Havana coastline. Once they are detected by Cuban patrol boats, they move to waters off Varadero, where the U.S. Coast Guard rescues them after their boat suffers a mechanical failure. The FBI releases them after it confiscates their supply of weapons, and maps and videos they had made during their journey.

July, 1992: An operation to infiltrate a U.S.-based terrorist into Cuba, served with the mission of sabotaging an economic target in Villa Clara province, fails. The terrorist is carrying weapons and explosives needed for the job and is to be assisted by Brothers to the Rescue who would keep him informed as to the position of the U.S. Coast Guard.

September 9, 1992: The FBI arrests a Cuban-born terrorist for illegal possession of firearms and violation of the Law of Neutrality. He is released without charges.

October 7, 1992: An armed attack against the Melia Varadero Hotel is perpetrated from a vessel manned by four Miami terrorists who are later arrested, questioned by the FBI, then released.

October 19, 1992: Three Miami-based counter-revolutionaries enter Cuba illegally, carrying weapons and military equipment that are confiscated. At the same time, three other terrorists are arrested in the Bahamas carrying weapons and explosives, apparently destined for Cuba. These weapons are also seized. This particular group had left Miami on October 17.

January, 1993: Five terrorists on board a vessel armed with heavy machine guns and other weapons are arrested by the U.S. Coast Guard as they head toward the Cuban coastline. They are quickly released.

January 7, 1993: During a press conference in Miami, Tony Bryant, leader of the terrorist group "Commandos L" openly announces plans to carry out more attacks against targets in Cuba. He makes a point of naming hotels as a prime target. He is quoted as saying, "From now on we are at war with Cuba," and warns foreign tourists to stay away from Cuba.

April 2, 1993: Seven miles north of Matanzas, the tanker ship Mikonos sailing under a Cypriot flag, is fired upon from a vessel manned by Cuban-born U.S.-based terrorists.

May 18, 1993: Another violation of Cuban airspace is incurred by a plane registered to Brothers to the Rescue bearing the number N8447.

May 21, 1993: Nine terrorists are arrested by the U.S. Customs Service who board a vessel as they prepare to sail for Cuba in order to launch attacks on that country. Their weapons and explosives are seized. On August 21, Judge Lawrence King dismisses charges against them.

May, 1993: Brothers to the Rescue plan to blow up a high-tension pylon near San Nicolas de Bari in Havana province.

October, 1993: Brothers to the Rescue publicly encourages attempts on the life of President Fidel Castro and continues to incite violence against Cuba. The Brothers confirm their readiness to accept the risk that could come with this commitment. Andres Nazario Sargen, head of terrorist group ALPHA 66, publicly announces in the U.S. that his organization had recently carried out five illegal operations against Cuba.

October 18, 1993: A terrorist living in the U.S. is arrested upon his arrival in Cuba.

His orders were to carry out acts of violence on Cuban soil. (snip/.....)
http://www.canadiannetworkoncuba.ca/Documents/terror.shtml

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


April 1976: Severely injured WQBA news director Emilio Milian is assisted after a car bomb exploded beneath him

(snip) Phrases like "mob rule" evoke frightening images of violence, which in turn sends Miami's damage-control specialists rushing to the microphones and insisting to the world that the Cuban-exile community is peace-loving, law-abiding, and (with emphasis now) nonviolent. Miami Mayor Joe Carollo in particular has been tireless in promoting that message. "Miami has been a peaceful, nonviolent community," he stressed to CNN last week. The historical record, however, clearly contradicts those assertions.

Lawless violence and intimidation have been hallmarks of el exilio for more than 30 years. Given that fact, it's not only understandable many people would be deeply worried, it's prudent to be worried. Of course it goes without saying that the majority of Cuban Americans in Miami do not sanction violence, but its long tradition within the exile community cannot be ignored and cannot simply be wished away.

The following list of violent incidents I compiled from a variety of databases and news sources (a few come from personal experience). It is incomplete, especially in Miami's trademark category of bomb threats. Nor does it include dozens of acts of violence and murder committed by Cuban exiles in other U.S. cities and at least sixteen foreign countries. But completeness isn't the point. The point is to face the truth, no matter how difficult that may be. If Miami's Cuban exiles confront this shameful past -- and resolutely disavow it -- they will go a long way toward easing their neighbors' anxiety about a peaceful future.


1968 From MacArthur Causeway, pediatrician Orlando Bosch fires bazooka at a Polish freighter. (City of Miami later declares "Orlando Bosch Day." Federal agents will jail him in 1988.)

1972 Julio Iglesias, performing at a local nightclub, says he wouldn't mind "singing in front of Cubans." Audience erupts in anger. Singer requires police escort. Most radio stations drop Iglesias from playlists. One that doesn't, Radio Alegre, receives bomb threats.

1974 Exile leader José Elias de la Torriente murdered in his Coral Gables home after failing to carry out a planned invasion of Cuba.

1974 Bomb blast guts the office of Spanish-language magazine Replica.

1974 Several small Cuban businesses, citing threats, stop selling Replica.

1974 Three bombs explode near a Spanish-language radio station.

1974 Hector Diaz Limonta and Arturo Rodriguez Vives murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1975 Luciano Nieves murdered after advocating peaceful coexistence with Cuba.

1975 Another bomb damages Replica's office.

1976 Rolando Masferrer and Ramon Donestevez murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1976 Car bomb blows off legs of WQBA-AM news director Emilio Milian after he publicly condemns exile violence. (snip/...)

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2000-04-20/mullin.html

[mobuto]

66. Forgive me

but could you please explain how those articles contradict my prediction that an enormous percentage of Cuban-Americans will return to Cuba immediatly following Mr. Castro's death?

I've been looking for an obvious answer in the texts submitted, without result.

I appreciate your prompt help,

M.

[Judi Lynn]

72. Didn't read your post predicting large numbers of gusanos

plan to waddle back to Cuba.

I was responding to your message line:
Ok, I know nothing about Cuban-Americans

I offered some refreshing, and informative looks at the way they've been conducting themselves in the U.S.

[SoCalDem]

85. As someone whose father was BORN in Cuba,

I can tell you that any exiles who were in the upper classes there would NOT return.. Time has passed them by and their children and grandchildren are Americans.. Lots of the ones who took refuge here are long gone anyway..

My own grandparents were in their 60's when they left without a penny to their name..

The ones who talk about returning,are blowhards.. They would never give up what they have here to return to have to rebuild Cuba..

This is one case where "You can never go home again" is most definitely true.. The Cuba of their youth is a figment of their own imaginations.. They have no doubt seen pictures and listened to the stories of their elders, but those lush compounds and the easy life they had in Cuba are long gone...never to return again..

Some of the ones who became wealthy here, will undoubtedly buy (or try to) property there for vacations, but they will never give up their citizenship here to live there permanently..

One thing I do see happening, is that the ones who CAN claim a connection to Cuba might be offered free medical treatment there.. That would just be a further slap in the face of our own stupid government.

[Judi Lynn]

69. More reference to Cuban "exile" extremists, connected to Jeb Bush

The Bush dynasty and the Cuban criminals

New book reveals links of two presidents and the governor of Florida with exiled hardliners

Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles
Monday December 2, 2002
The Guardian

The brother of President George Bush, the Florida governor, Jeb Bush, has been instrumental in securing the release from prison of militant Cuban exiles convicted of terrorist offences, according to a new book. The Bush family has also accommodated the demands of Cuban exile hardliners in exchange for electoral and financial support, the book suggests.
Last year, after September 11, while the justice department announced a sweep of terrorist suspects, Cubans convicted of terrorist offences were being released from US jails with the consent of the Bush administration, according to the book, Cuba Confidential: Love and Vengeance in Miami and Havana, by Ann Louise Bardach, the award-winning investigative journalist who has covered Cuban and Miami politics for the New York Times and Vanity Fair.

The Bush family connections go back to 1984 when Jeb Bush began a close association with Camilo Padreda, a former intelligence officer with the Batista dictatorship overthrown by Fidel Castro.

Jeb Bush was then the chairman of the Dade county Republican party and Padreda its finance chairman. Padreda had earlier been indicted on a $500,000 (£320,000) embezzlement charge along with a fellow exile, Hernandez Cartaya, but the charges were dropped, reportedly after the CIA stated that Cartaya had worked for them. (snip/...)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,851913,00.html

[mobuto]

70. I'm terribly sorry

but your article appears to be concerned with allegations that anti-Castro hardliners have ties to Jeb Bush. How does that address or invalidate my prediction that an enormous percentage of the Cuban-American population will return to Cuba immediatly following Mr. Castro's death?

Many thanks.

M.

[Judi Lynn]

73. I found an article referring to the RETURN OF THE GUSANOS

touched in passing in an interview with Camilo Guevarra, son of the Argentinian Che Guevara, whose watch is still waved around in Miami by Felix Rodriguez, who stripped it from him after he was murdered.

(snip) Q: El Maximo Lider Fidel will sooner or later disappear from the scene. He is 72 now. What will happen then? In Florida huge groups of Cuban exiles are waiting for the day they can reclaim Cuba.

Guevara: There are few thing of which one can be sure in this world. (Laughs) The Cubans in Florida where already convinced back in 1959 that they would re-conquer Cuba quickly. Ha! We are forty years further now, and they are still in Florida. When Eastern Europe collapsed, they knew for certain: we take Cuba back! In the meantime that's nine years ago.
For sixty years, from the beginning of the century until the end of the fifties, Cuba was a colony of the US. We know capitalism, we have experienced its deeds. Until Fidel and a group of youngsters launched the revolution. What do you think the Cuban people are going to do after Fidel's death? Do you think that everybody wants to go back to the period before 1959; that the people will allow the US to come and boss us around? (snip/...)

Camilo Guevarra

http://www.thechestore.com/CheText/InterviewWCamilo%20Guevara.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've heard it mentioned many times in the last few years, the only time I've been actually trying to find out more about Cuba, that people who have friends there say Cubans DON'T WANT them butting into their lives, as in SERIOUSLY DON'T WANT THEM BUTTING INTO THEIR LIVES.

You may recall, there was an enormously heart-felt revolution in Cuba, throwing OUT many of the same reprobates who fled to Miami, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, New Jersey.

[mobuto]

83. Thanks for the Response!

But Mr. Guevarra argues that the Cuban people won't want "to go back to the period before 1959." Does that mean that Fidel Castro's successor will attempt to block Cuban expatriates from returning?

And do you consider all Cuban-Americans to be "gusanos?" If the answer is somewhat less than 100%, wouldn't you agree that perhaps another descriptive adjective would be more apt?

[Mika]

139. Here's a poll on Cuban-Americans concerns. Staying in the USA

on edit: added link

Posted on Thu, Jul. 10, 2003
Poll: Cubans' focus is local
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/6269237.htm

The majority of Cuban Americans living in Miami-Dade County are more concerned with improving their lives in the United States than with issues in Cuba, according to a recent poll commissioned by a national Hispanic voter-registration group.

Overall, 62 percent of the 600 Cuban Americans polled said that spending time and money improving their quality of life in this country was more important than working to remove the regime of Cuban President Fidel Castro.

The group that was most likely to focus on local concerns over international ones comprised those who were children -- or not yet born -- when Castro took power in 1959. Seventy-two percent of those 45 and younger voiced that opinion.

''The younger generation, I think, is looking forward to things, while the elderly are still looking back,'' said Alvaro Fernandez, Florida director of the Southwest Voter Registration Education Project, a nonpartisan group that commissioned the poll through its research arm, the William C. Velazquez Institute.

''They've put down roots, they're raising families, and they care about things like education,'' Fernandez said.

[Judi Lynn]

141. Very cool post, Mika

I've heard this of sentiment among the younger Cuban-Americans, also. It's great to see it in writing.

This line cracked me up: they care about things like education.

They're going to have to get serious and get a Democratic Governor, and do it soon.

Too bad FLORIDA doesn't have the ability to recall governors. Damn it!

[robcon]

3. Socialism will survive Castro only if human rights continue to be abused

The only way Castro's system will continue is to use Castro's techniques of repression. As Human Rights Watch has said...

"...Cuba has long been a one-party state. It has long restricted nearly all avenues of political dissent. It has long denied its people basic rights to fair trial, free expression, association, assembly, movement and the press. It has frequently sought to silence its critics by using short term detentions, house arrests, travel restrictions, threats, surveillance, politically motivated dismissals from employment, and other harassment. But this year's crackdown on political dissent in Cuba, in its scale and intensity, is the worst we've seen in a decade or more."

http://www.hrw.org/americas/cuba.php

[Mika]

4. HRW has it wrong

HRW is a propaganda org.

Here are some of the major parties in Cuba. The union parties hold the majority of seats in the Assembly.

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

[robcon]

5. Make-believe parties, and make-believe elections

One time the argument was made at length here on DU (I don't remember by which Castro apologist) that political parties are outlawed in Cuba, and this is the strength of the Cuban "electoral" system. Now you argue that Cuba is a multi-party state. I think you apologists should get your stories straight.

Sorry, Mika, Human Rights Watch has a lot more credibility than you.

[Mika]

8. Make believe in your uninformed & inexperienced mind

robcon, when was the last time you were in Cuba?


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

-

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html#Democracy

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[robcon]

9. For 650 members of parliament, 650 people were allowed to run.

If you don't like Human Rights Watch, maybe Amnesty International would suit you...

"...In the most severe crackdown on the dissident movement since the years following the 1959 revolution, Cuban authorities arrested 75 dissidents in the space of several days in mid-March. They were subjected to summary trials and were quickly sentenced to long prison terms of up to 28 years. With this sweep the authorities detained, with the exception of half a dozen well-known figures critical of the regime, the bulk of the mid-level leadership of the dissident movement; many of those arrested had been involved in activities of dissent for a decade or more.

The move, unprecedented in scope, was surprising to some observers in that over the last several years Cuba had generally seemed to be moving towards a more open and permissive approach. With some exceptions, for example numerous arrests of dissidents before and after the attempted gate-crashing of the Mexican Embassy in February 2002, the number of prisoners of conscience had declined steadily over past years. The Cuban authorities had seemed to be moving away from the blanket imposition of lengthy prison sentences as a means of stifling dissent, and towards a more low-level approach of harassment, designed more to discourage than to punish critics.(1) In addition, in April 2000 Cuba began implementing a de facto moratorium on executions, which was widely welcomed by observers of the human rights situation on the island.

Given the accumulation over the last several years of these and other signals of a relaxation in human rights terms, the wave of arrests and summary trials, in addition to the execution of three men convicted of hijacking, signal an alarming step backwards in terms of respect for human rights.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003

[Mika]

11. Nope. For 603 elected representatives 603 were ratified

robcon, there are ratification elections in Cuba that require 50% +1 of the electorate to approve of the elected candidate, or they have to call a special election within 6 weeks.

I have linked this for you before, try reading it.
http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html#Democracy

[Mika]

13. I know.. information is bad

PPS FROM OUR NEIGHBORS TO THE SOUTH:
THE CUBAN PRISON SYSTEM - REFLECTIVE OBSERVATIONS 2000

by Prof. Soffiyah Elijah
Clinical Instructor
Criminal Justice Institute
Harvard Law School
http://afrocubaweb.com/elijah.htm

Since the island nation of Cuba experienced its successful revolution in 1959 its prison system has been evolving. Despite accusations of harsh human rights abuses from its neighbors to the North, Cuba today maintains a prison system that is in many respects far more humane than Western propaganda would have the uninformed public believe.

Read Prof. Soffiyah Elijah observations here - http://afrocubaweb.com/elijah.htm

[mobuto]

67. Mika, a Question about Ms. Soffiyah Elijah

I looked through the Harvard Law School's faculty directory, and I see no reference to a Soffiyah Elijah.

In fact, the only reference I could find to such a person was as a visitng instructor in the 2001 Fall Trial Advocacy Workshop, with no suggestion of any professorial standing.

Could you please clarify this apparenty incongruity? I appreciate your prompt response. One would certainly like to avoid the appearance of having used credentials to which one is not entitled in order to establish one's self as an authority on a particular subject. I hope you agree.

Many thanks,

M.

[YankmeCrankme]

71. I googled her name...

and came up with several links. One listed her as faculty at Harvard for the Fall Trial Advocacy Workshop not as a visiting professor.

www.law.harvard.edu/academics/clinical/ cji/cji-who_faculty.htm

[mobuto]

77. No, a visitng instructor

not a visiting professor. "Professor" is a word with a specific meaning.

One listed her as faculty at Harvard

Yes, but faculty can mean any number of things. The link you provide suggests she was a visiting instructor who helped teach a workshop. That may have allowed her to claim she was technically faculty, but it would not have been a permanent job, nor would it have been a professorship.

If that is in fact the case, it would be inconsistent with the facts for her to refer to herself as a professor, and at best highly misleading for her to claim to be a Clinical Instructor at Harvard's Criminal Justice Institute, when she only instructed one workshop there once, and then two years ago.

This is a not an inconsequential incongruity, it would appear, but I hope this can be resolved satisfactorily.

My best,

[YankmeCrankme]

90. Actually,

She is listed in the 2003-2004 Harvard Catalog as a instructor in the Clinical Programs run by Prof. Olgetree within the Research, Teaching and Fellowship Programs. This is not a one time workshop, it is an ongoing teaching program, and while it might not be full-time, it is permanent or as permanent as positions in higher academics can be. It is not some fly-by-night gig. The article referenced gives her position accurately; clinical instructor at Harvard Law School.

[Judi Lynn]

74. Take a quick look at google, she's listed as a professor

At this site, she lurks among a large group of professors. Maybe you should contact them, let them know there is a wolf in sheep's clothing among them.

http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/lawprofessors.html

No doubt they'll admire your perspicacity.

[mobuto]

78. I'm not interested in projecting my perspicacity

but rather in discerning the truth. If an "expert" cited in arguments presented to us claims credentials inconsistent with what she is entitled to, that has the potential to create confusion and make the truth harder to discern.

And Judilyn, I think we both agree that confusion is the last thing we want on the DemocraticUnderground.

Cheers.

M.

[Mika]

88. Why don't you ask her yourself

Criminal Justice Institute
Harvard Law School
Austin Hall, Room 302
1515 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge, MA 02138
617-496-8143
617-496-2277 (Fax)

Professor Charles J. Ogletree, Jr. Director
Soffiyah Elijah, Clinical Instructor
Stacey A.L. Best, Clinical Instructor
David Poole, Clinical Instructor

[Mika]

106. I called Prof. Soffiyah Elijah today

After telling mobutu to call her, I said to myself "why don't I do that?". So, I called the Harvard office number posted above, waited a couple of minutes, and she came to the phone.

What a nice person she is, too.

She is the Deputy Director of the Criminal Justice Institute at Harvard Law School. Full professorship for the last four years.

She has more papers on the Cuban prison system coming out soon.

She was a little scared to talk to someone from Miami because she said that since her paper (that I posted on the Cuban prison system, year 2000) she received many death threats from Miami.

Her paper is a condensation of her experience. She was able to rent a car and go wherever she wanted at a whim. She visited prisons all over Cuba, and talked to prisoners and their families, as well as witnessing the system function.


I'm glad I called. I've met a new friend. :loveya:

[Osolomia]

108. EXCELLENT! Way to go Mika!

Thanks for posting.

[Judi Lynn]

112. BRAVO, MIKA! You put your money where your mouth is!

I believe Mobuto can verify what you said by popping for his own phone call to Ms. Elijah. He WAS so concerned about her credentials, after all.

I've read her writing about the prisons. Very interesting, and far, far different from the grondoo we hear from propaganda outlets.

It's WONDERFUL thinking that you called her. She could USE a friend from Miami, after getting some of the well-known death threats!

Wooooo HOOOOOOOO! Three cheers for Mika. :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[Judi Lynn]

115. I can hear the next round of attacks warming up on Soffia Elijah now!

Well, she may be a full professor, admittedly, but she is soft on Castro! She's a Castro APOLOGIST! Yeah, that's the ticket. An APOLOGIST.

[Osolomia]

117. I can see Americans turning a blind eye to the "death threats"

this Harvard professor is receiveing for daring to challenge the US government's propaganda about Cuba.

After all, no doubt they're coming from the USA's own CIA trained terrorists in Miami that the 2004 Democratic presidential candidates are pandering to.

[Judi Lynn]

121. I don't think she can EVER really be too secure for the rest of her life

She could turn around sometime and see one of this guy's compatriots just as she turns on the car engine.


Orlando Bosch

It's almost too hard to believe he claims he started out his adult life as a pediatrician. He definitely TOOK some children's lives when he designed that bombing of the Cubana air liner, yet he snarls, "There were no innocents on board that plane."

Yeah, right.

I hope Ms. Elijah will NEVER have to experience one of their threats made real. The death threats themselves are serious crimes, forget the crimes they threatened.

[Pompitous_Of_Love]

130. Well, it ain't Castro, but...

I have to question the woman's ideological commitments since she seems to think that her legal representation of murderous thugs is worth bragging about on the Afro-Cuban Web Site:

Elijah's street cred

God alone only knows what kind of intellectual mischief Harvard sanctions in the name of diversity, but I'm sure they're keeping it real with the Castro apologists and the Mumia lovers.

[Osolomia]

131. No wonder Bush apologists would object to Elijah's commitments!

The offending bio on the AFROCUBA WEB site:

Soffiyah Elijah is Clinical Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute, Harvard Law School. She has had a distinguished career as an attorney and was an assistant professor of law at the City University of New York. She has represented a number of political prisoners and activists in the US including Kwame Turé, Marilyn Buck, and Sundiata Acoli. Sundiata, along with Assata and Zayd Shakur were ambushed by New Jersey State troopers in an infamous "driving while Black" incident in 1973 on the New Jersey Turnpike. Sundiata and Assata were arrested and charged with murder. Zayd was killed by the troopers.

Dr. Elijah has done extensive research on the US criminal justice and prison systems. Her article on the Cuban prison system was quoted in the 6/17/00 edition of the Miami Herald and has caused some controversy for its balanced approach.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mika]

133. Bush apologists hate minority defense lawyers

Attacking civil rights and attacking civil rights lawyers is par for the course for apologists of the Bush Doctrine.

Many Bush apologists don't think that police pull overs for 'driving while black' exists, or they condone it as reasonable.

Look at their attacks on affirmitave action, etc. Look at the prisons busting out at the seams with an extremely disproportionate black demographic. Look at the historical US record of the treatment of African-Americans. Then they attack the defense lawyers. It fits a pattern. Attack the messenger.


Cubans cast off the American racist agenda in 1959.


Viva Cuba!

[Pompitous_Of_Love]

135. Censored by the Man

Before some zealot censors another one of my messages on this thread, I'd like to reiterate a proposal I made in the one just deleted -- let's petition the State of New Jersey to allow Soffiyah Elijah's former client, Sundiata Acoli, to serve the rest of his sentence in a Cuban prison, where he will undoubtedly be treated in a far more human manner. Read more about Acoli here at the Mumia Abu Jamal fan site.

[Mika]

136. Deservedly so

Racist diatribes that have no bearing to the topic whatsoever usually do get pulled.

I don't hit alert though. I like to let the bigoted posts made by the apologists of the Bush Doctrine speak for themselves.


What the hell does the prior client list of a defense attorney have to do with the report on the Cuban prison system? Nada.

If you're so interested in Mumia Abu Jamal or Sundiata Acoli, go start a thread.


I don't see that you are very concerned with the Miamicuban "exile" murderers and henchmen (like Orlando Bosch and Pepe Hernandez for example) who are freely going about their dirty business in Miami, who even sit on stage with presidents of the US and US congresspersons on national TV broadcasts.

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Osolomia]

138. Dream on

With a little bit of knowledge and experience any one can spot a racist attitude a mile away.

And evidently you prefer to cling to fantasy and ignore the steady stream of news articles like this:

ND Companies Search for Cuban Markets
USAgNet - 12/10/2003

North Dakota companies hope a trip to Cuba later this month will mean more agreements to sell more of the state's food products there.

"We're hoping to come back with contracts, or at least some intent on their part to buy," said Dave Morken of Unity Seed Co., in Casselton, ND, a member of the delegation.

North Dakota Agriculture Commissioner Roger Johnson will lead representatives from nine agriculture companies on a trip to Cuba beginning Sunday. The delegation also will be part of a larger delegation that will include other states such as Minnesota.

The Cuban government intends to buy $80 million in food commodities and food products in the first quarter of next year and is interested in North Dakota products such as dry edible beans, dry peas, lentils, semolina, spring wheat flour and soybeans, Johnson said.

http://www.wisconsinagconnection.com/story-national.cfm?Id=1321&yr=2003

[Judi Lynn]

140. Now this is getting interesting, isn't it?

More, and more states are lining up to start up their own negotiations with Cuba to sell them food, and medicine, while, at the same time, _Bush, trying to please his PNAC'ers, and his Cuban right-wing extremist faction in Miami is plotting to most likely run a second battle of the Bay of Pigs at them.

I'm sure those people wouldn't think twice of vaporizing any Americans unlucky enough to get caught in the crossfire.

As you may remember, the Miami bomber, Luis Posada Carriles, in response to the statement he had killed an Italian tourist, on one of his bombing attacks on a hotel in Cuba, said that he had no problem with it, the guy was in the wrong place, and that he "sleeps like a baby."

It would be a thing of beauty to see these organizations start pooling their resources and moving their Congress people to produce that veto-proof vote we need on the travel ban and on the embargo.

This whole thing's going to be back for another round in February. We also know we'll be dealing with it in the summer, as well, if _Bush doesn't take it all out of everyone's hands by destroying the Cuban government and putting in place the corrupt, murderous, old Batista crowd from before: the same ones the people of Cuba threw out in the first place.

[Pompitous_Of_Love]

142. Wake up!

Did you even bother to actually read what I posted? I'm in favor of dropping the blockade -- no ifs, ands or buts. It can't do anything but improve the lot of the average Cuban.

[Osolomia]

143. I humbly suggest you wake up and read what you posted!

“however, we'll have to go through the normalization of trade process, which these days means the Cuban government will have to agree to meet a wide range of civil rights performance.” Message #137

Hardly sounds like “no ifs, ands or buts” to me !

[Mika]

144. American arrogance and hubris

After 40+ years of embargo, extra territorial sanctions, military attacks, assassinations, terror ops, travel bans, and on and on - and all of that after US occupation/intervention in Cuba under the Platt amendment of 1903 - and Americans still want Cuba to kneel down or bend over for just a little more?

It is nothing less than American arrogance and hubris that makes this treatment of Cuba tenable in the collective conscience of America.

[Say_What]

127. Thank you. I'll do a little more research on her myself

Peace!!

SW

[Say_What]

20. 'Make-believe parties, and make-believe elections'

Sounds like Uncle Sam's antics worldwide. Not to mention the one-party-two-name system we have right here in the USSA. Then there's the militarization of the police in the *free and democratic* USSA.

<clips>

Friendly Dictators often rise to power through bloody CIA-backed coups and rule by terror and torture. Their troops may receive training or advice from the CIA and other U.S. agencies. "Anti-communism" is their common battle cry and a common excuse for political repression. They are linked internationally through extreme right-wing groups such as the World Anti-Communist League (see card 17). Strong Nazi affiliations are typical - some have been known to dress in Nazi paraphemalia and quote from Mein Kampf, while others offer sanctuary for actual Nazi war criminals.

Friendly Dictators usually grow rich, while their countries' economies go down the drain. U.S. tax dollars and U.S. backed loans have made billionaires of some; others are international drug dealers who also collect CIA paychecks. Rarely are they called to account for their crimes.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Cards_Index.html

[robcon]

10. Your own post undermines your previous post.

You listed bogus political parties, but your post said...

"No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates."

Which is it, the Mika who claims Cuba is a multiparty state, or Mika who argues that there are no political parties allowed.

Your propaganda is contradicting itself.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robcon]

16. You've exposed your deceptions again, Mika.

You first say there are political parties. Then you say they can't nominate candidates. The grass-roots assemblies are the Communist party cadres, as you know, but are unwilling to admit.

Your bluff, that you don't know that the Communist party cadres nominate every member of the parliament, and no one is allowed to run against them, is pretty amateur propaganda, Mika. You should try more open statements, and stop trying to hide behind vague words and missing parts of your statements.

You obviously believe it is 1984 in Cuba...

Closed electtions are open elections
Human Rights Watch is propaganda; Cuban government statements are not.
Amnesty International is propaganda; books sponsored by the Cuban government are not.
"detentions, house arrests, travel restrictions, threats, surveillance, politically motivated dismissals from employment" are the signs of a democracy.
25 years in prison for signing up for the Varela Project is fair.
Unopposed elections are democratic.
Repeating lies often enough makes them the truth.

[Mika]

18. Can anyone interpret post #16 for me?

It just doesn't make any sense. :crazy:

Am I supposed to believe US sponsored propaganda over what I saw and experienced IN CUBA, myself?

[Osolomia]

21. I too know what I saw and heard with my own eyes and ears

freely travelling about during an election in Cuba while the US government and "free press" were very obviously blatantly lying through their teeth about it.

Evidently many DUers haven't learnt a f*ing thing from the Iraq attack and would let it happen again. Pathetic.

[Mika]

24. Only Americans are capable of running things (or deciding who can), right?

To suggest that the Cuban people are not capable of determining their own future, and/or that one man has ruled Cuba with an iron fist for 40+ years against their will, is outright ignorant & blatantly bigoted.

The Cuban people have proven, historically, their ability to quite readily overthrow any government of Cuba, including the brutal, fully US government and US organized crime backed Batista. To think that Cubans have just sat back after the revolution and allowed themselves to be dictated to is absurd. And an insult.

Does Castro force one of the best education systems with the highest literacy rate on Cuba's children? Does Castro force one of the best universal health care systems on the Cuban people, resulting in the lowest infant mortality rate highest longevity rate in the West? Does Castro force the Cuban people to submit to a representative parliamentary democratic system?

If you believe that Castro forces this on the Cuban people, then I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya.

The Cuban people, together, have worked long and hard to build what they have. Freedom. Sovereignty.

[Osolomia]

27. The people of Cuba are among the most capable on the planet

when they do something they do it really well and even travel banned Americans ought to have noticed some of that by now from baseball to music to cars and cigars to education to medicine, you name it.

Americans can learn a lot from Cuba and are ignorant hypocrites not to. The lack of respect for Cuba's sovereignty and right to self determination is a national disgrace for all Americans whether they've got the integrity to face the truth or not. Shame on those who don't.

[Blitz]

57. The Cuban people are not capable of determining their own future

and one man has ruled Cuba with an iron fist for 40+ years. I'm making that statement. You believe it's objectively an insult and "blatantly bigoted?" Hit ALERT.

The Cuban people are not different than the Russian, Georgian, Ukrainian, and millions of other people who were not capable of determining their own future for over seventy years as they were ruled with an iron fist. They are no little different than Chinese people today (and for the past 50+ years) who are not capable of determining their own future and have been ruled with an iron fist. Both the Soviet Union and China have outstanding education systems but education does not equal freedom and democracy. both had universal health care. Both had fake parliaments like Cuba's fake parliament. Hell, Iraq under Hussein had a parliament and elections and the whole bit. Castro will never know whether or not socialism will survive him but I am willing to bet that five years after the vicious old despot is finally worm food, the Cuban people will have thrown off his cronies and will have a brighter future ahead of them while Castro's supporters and sycophantic apologists, both in Cuba and around the world, will be held in the regard that they have so richly earned.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blitz]

59. Before your post gets deleted, I wanted to ask you

Why do you put an asterisk next to "Dems." I've seen you do it over and over again and I don't get it. What is it supposed to mean?

[Osolomia]

60. Why should they be deleted?

* denotes dems in name only, repukes to the core.

"Castro's supporters and sycophantic apologists" is straight out of the CANF manual and a dead giveaway.

[Mika]

61. I prefer not to hit alert. Sorry, but I prefer free speech

I think that the insults hurled at the Cuban people that are posted on this Dem board should stand for all to see.

It demonstrates that the hatred of Cuba and the Cuban people's sovereignty isn't a patented repuke product.


May I remind you that the sovereign nation of Cuba, the Cuban people, and President Fidel Castro are respected the world over.. and, in this day and age, I suspect more so than the USA & Bush & his sycophantic anti Cuba apologists. This suspicion is supported, based on the near unanimous votes condemning the US sanctions on Cuba in United Nations votes.

[Blitz]

62. A, yes, the UN

the organization that supports a two-bit dictatorship like Cuba and their petty tyrants but won't give membership to a thriving democracy like Tiawan.

The day that "President" Fidel Castro finally drops dead will be a wonderful day and a new beginning for the Cuban people who have suffered under his heel for far too long. May that day come soon.

[Judi Lynn]

64. Apparently your talents are wasted on message boards

You could be of real service to the C.I.A., which is lingering under some preposterous illusions, if we are to believe your unlinked charges.

MSNBC
April 13, 2000
CIA: Most Cubans loyal to homeland

Agency believes various ties to island bind the majority

By Robert Windrem
NBC NEWS PRODUCER



(snip)...The CIA believes there are many reasons Cubans are content to remain in their homeland. Some don’t
want to be separated from home, family and friends. Some fear they would never be able to return, and still
others just fear change in general. Officials also say there is a reservoir of loyalty to Fidel Castro and, as in
the case of Juan Miguel Gonzalez, to the Communist Party.

U.S. officials say they no longer regard Cuba as a totalitarian state with aggressive policies toward its people,
but instead an authoritarian state, where the public can operate within certain bounds — just not push the envelope.

More important, Cuban media and Cuban culture long ago raised the banner of nationalism above that of
Marxism.

The intelligence community says the battle over Elian has presented Castro with a “unique opportunity” to
enhance that nationalism.

There is no indication, U.S. officials say, of any nascent rebellion about to spill into the streets, no great
outpouring of support for human rights activists in prison. In fact, there are fewer than 100 activists on the island
and a support group of perhaps 1,000 more, according to U.S. officials. (snip/...)

http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/cuba/loyal.htm

[Osolomia]

79. The MAJORITY in the US House, Senate and State Legislatures

are just a bunch of "Castro's supporters and sycophantic apologists" according to the rules of this forum evidently.

Go figure!

[Judi Lynn]

81. Isn't that a kick in the head?

Some of the stodgiest Republicans in Congress are going to be shocked when they learned they have been spotted and called out as being "CASTRO APOLOGISTS!" They're on a downhill slide. Soon we'll be hearing most Americans called "treehuggers," as well.

It's what Joe McCarthy would want. Screw'em, right?

[mobuto]

82. Do you believe it is possible

for a majority in the US House of Representatives to believe in the benefits of trade with and travel to Cuba, without believing in or supporting the government of Mr. Castro?

After all, the United States allows travel to and trade with China, Vietnam, Syria, Cambodia, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Zimbabwe, and others, and yet I find it hard to believe that many in Congress, regardless of party affiliation, have much affection for their respective governments.

[Mika]

89. Re:"The Cuban people are not capable of determining their own future"

"The Cuban people are not capable of determining their own future" is about as bigoted and intolerable a statement as saying that about any other demographic.

But such a bigoted slander remains on DU, while posts in defense of the Cuban people's remarkable abilities are deleted from this and other threads.



To suggest that the Cuban people are not capable of determining their own future, and/or that one man has ruled Cuba with an iron fist for 40+ years against their will, is outright ignorant & blatantly bigoted.

The Cuban people have proven, historically, their ability to quite readily overthrow any government of Cuba, including the brutal, fully US government and US organized crime backed Batista. To think that Cubans have just sat back after the revolution and allowed themselves to be dictated to is absurd. And an insult.

Does Castro force one of the documented best education systems with the highest literacy rate on Cuba's children? Does Castro force one of the documented best universal health care systems on the Cuban people, resulting in the lowest infant mortality rate and the highest longevity rate in the West? Does Castro force the Cuban people to submit to a representative parliamentary democratic system?

To state that these social structures are somehow forced on the Cuban people, or that the Cuban people are somehow incapable of governing themselves is blatant anti Cuban bigotry.

[Just Me]

91. I am confused by the censorship,...

,...and wish the "violations" were articulated when posts are deleted. I had no idea that or what rule(s) my posts violated.

[Blitz]

92. You misunderstand me

either purposely or not. In any case, when I say that the Cuban people are not capable of determining their own future, it is not bigotry or any kind of slight against the Cuban people or their intellectual or moral capacities.

As I have explained above, the Cuban people are not capable of determining their own future in the same way that the people of Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union were not capable of determining their own future. The same way that the people of China are not capable of determining their own future. It is a criticism of the dictatorship that restricts them, not of the people being restricted. Once the dictatorship finally falls, I believe that the Cuban people will do as well as any other.

My statement was not anti-Cuban. It was anti-Castro and I stand by it.

On edit: I see that I am replying to a tombstone. Nevertheless, I hope that you see this and that my explanation helps to clarify my position for you.

[Osolomia]

96. Naw, you don't support the Bush Doctrine do you?

Fact Sheet: Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba

December 8, 2003
FACT SHEET
Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba

"Our government will establish a Commission for the Assistance to a Free Cuba, to plan for the happy day when Castro's regime is no more and democracy comes to the island."

President George W. Bush, October 10, 2003

On December 5, 2003, the President's Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba held its inaugural meeting at the White House. The meeting was co-chaired by Secretary of State Colin Powell and Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Mel Martinez. Also in attendance were Secretary of Commerce Don Evans, Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge, and National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice.

United States policy regarding Cuba is clear -- hasten Cuba's peaceful transition to a representative democracy and a free market economy -- ending decades of an oppressive dictatorship. The President created the Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba to focus the United States government efforts on achieving this objective.

Specifically, the Commission will:

- identify additional means by which the United States can help the Cuban people bring about an expeditious end of the dictatorship; and

- consider the requirements for United States assistance to a post-dictatorship Cuba.

By May 1, 2004, the Commission will provide an initial report to the President regarding the recommended elements of a comprehensive program to assist the Cuban people to:

- bring about a peaceful, near-term end to the dictatorship;
- establish democratic institutions, respect for human rights, and the rule of law;
- create the core institutions of a free economy;
- modernize infrastructure; and
- meet basic needs in the areas of health, education, housing, and human services.

The Commission consists of representatives from:

The Departments of State, the Treasury, Defense, Justice, Interior, Agriculture, Commerce, Labor, Health and Human Services, Housing and Urban Development, Transportation, Energy, Education, Veterans Affairs, and Homeland Security, the United States Agency for International Development, National Security Council, Environmental Protection Agency, Office of Management and Budget, United States Trade Representative, and the Office of National Drug Control Policy.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/12/20031208-8.html

[Judi Lynn]

99. God, the only thing missing from this statement is the notification

of when they'll start bombing.

What part of the Cubans' response to the Bay of Pigs invasion didn't they understand?

[Osolomia]

109. What part of "democracy" don't they understand!!!

I'm at a loss for words to adequately express my reaction to the 2004 Democratic presidential candidates and their DU supporters silently complicit positions on this issue that's fit to print on this forum.

[Judi Lynn]

93. Mika, I appreciate more than I can say your input here.

You have been attacked and hounded, ridiculed, mocked by people who have represented the right-wing Cuban position concerning US/Cuban relations.

Moderate and liberal Americans ALL look forward to removing the embargo and travel ban NOW, as soon as humanly possible.

Thanks so much for your essential prsence here.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Osolomia]

19. The people nominate the candidates

in a 2 stage electoral process, but evidently you don't want to know that. Evidently you do not want to know anything at all about Cuba that's not sanctioned by the US government or CANF and typical of gusanos and other spineless critters.

[mobuto]

68. The United States Government is a "spineless critter"?

Is that just now the case, or was it also true during Clinton's Presidency? Lyndon Johnson's? Jack Kennedy? If not, why not? If yes, how so?

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mika]

87. Please reread the quote you posted - it contradicts your point

""No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.""

The quote connotes that their are political parties in Cuba. Get it?

The national political parties do not select candidates in secret. Candidates are selected by the electorate in each district.

[Dirk39]

7. "Socialism will not survive Castro only if human rights

are abused by northamerican mercenaries, european and northamerican companies, free trade and free press fox-news right to dissent and persuade. Not to mention 40 TV channels and 120 radio stations talking neoliberal nonsense 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
But there's hope, who with a brain ever believed that capitalism would survive Bush one.
Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Osolomia]

22. All the other Dem prez contenders spoke in Florida today

and never mentioned Cuba policy if DU's GD coverage is any indication. Gee, I wonder why!

[Mika]

29. That was pretty "funny", wasn't it. ((Sssshhhh))

I saw them all speak too. Not a word. (WAAAayyy to much dirty laundry and incest.)


Can you imagine such a thing.. Dems IN Floriduh. Where the Cuban-American vote is akin to almighty God's own gold & diamonds (according to all of the talking heads and pundits). AND NOT A FREAKING WORD!


Dems on Cuba - Its lke the big pink elephant in the middle of the room that no one wants to talk about.

How progressive. :puke:

[Osolomia]

30. Why is that? Why don't they want to talk about it?

If it was any other country even DUers would get their dander up over stuff like this but evidently silent complicity when it comes to Cuba:

Martinez and Noriega told reporters in a conference call afterward that the commission will focus on ways to speed up the beginning of a political and economic transition to Democracy in Cuba and to respond once that transition is underway. The goal is to prevent a succession that allows the present government to continue, Noriega said.

Dec 5, 2003
http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/politics/7424402.htm

[Osolomia]

50. One Dem had something to say!

U.S. Rep. Bob Menendez of New Jersey said Democrats stand a strong chance of persuing Cuban-American voters in South Florida to support the party's eventual nominee.

Menendez, a Cuban-American congressman attending the Florida Democratic Party's convention, said Saturday that the eventual Democratic nominee could enhance its support despite President Bush's overwhelming tally among Cuban-American voters in 2000.

"In South Florida there's no reason why a Democrat cannot crack into the Cuban-American community because after you deal with the question of Castro it's a pretty progressive community," Menendez said. "They care about Medicare and Social Security, they care about education and they care about health care."

The congressman said the Bush administration "has nothing except a lot of rhetoric to show on the issue of Cuba," and noted that President Clinton increased his support among Cuban-Americans during his 1996 re-election campaign.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-nj--democraticconvent1207dec07,0,6037631.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire

No wonder, 1996 was the year Clinton's America passed the Helms-Burton Act! Puke.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

28. SUCH A SOBERING POINT!!!

,...and keep on naming those numbers

For example,

one of the highest rates of violent crimes
one of the highest rates of mental illness
one of the highest rates of domestic violence
one of the highest rates of imprisonment
one of the only countries where a law-abiding citizen will die for absence of health care
one of the only countries where a decent person could starve
one of the only countries where the egg is counted before it's hatched but the chicken is to be eaten alive.


ISN'T A CAPITALIST FORM OF DEMOCRATIC PLUTOCRACY/OLIGARCHY JUST F*CKIN GRAND!!!

I am all for democracy,..."of, by and for" the people. But, I know that there are many forms of democracy that can exist and which can be better than some predatory corporate republic!!! If you can't handle that,...go boo hoo and whine and scream on your own time!!!

[Say_What]

23. AI: US Exports $20 million of Shackles, Electro-Shock Technology

Gee robcon... you really need to research your own country before pointing your finger elsewhere. Get a clue.

<clips>

Expanding Global Trade Supplies States US Condemned for Torture

(Washington, DC) – A new Amnesty International report charges that in 2002, the Bush Administration violated the spirit of its own export policy and approved the sale of equipment implicated in torture to Yemen, Jordan, Morocco and Thailand, despite the countries' documented use of such weapons to punish, mistreat and inflict torture on prisoners. The US is also alleged to have handed suspects in the 'war on terror' to the same countries.

The total value of US exports of electro-shock weapons was $14.7 million in 2002 and exports of restraints totaled $4.4 million in the same period. The Commerce and State Departments approved these sales, permitting 45 countries to purchase electro-shock technology, including 19 that had been cited for the use of such weapons to inflict torture since 1990.

The report – The Pain Merchants – also reveals that the US approved the 2002 export to Saudi Arabia of nine tons of Smith & Wesson leg-irons. Former prisoners in Saudi Arabia have stated that their restraints were stamped with the name of Smith & Wesson. In a 2000 Amnesty International report, Phil Lomax, a UK national who was held for 17 days in 1999, recounted how shackles used in Malaz prison in Riyadh, were made in the US: "When we were taken out of the cell we were shackled and handcuffed. The shackles were very painful. They were made of steel... like a handcuff ring. The handcuffs were made in the USA."

"Although torture is endemic in Saudi Arabia, Smith and Wesson had no qualms about exporting approximately 10,000 leg-irons to Riyadh, and apparently sharing this lack of concern, the Bush Administration approved the sale," said Dr. William F. Schulz, Executive Director of Amnesty International USA (AIUSA). "For decades, human rights groups and the US State Department have documented Saudi Arabia's cruel use of leg-irons and shackles to inflict torture and force confessions. With this shameful shipment, we can expect the torture of religious minorities and peaceful protestors to continue for years to come."

<http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/usa/document.do?id=F7CE0B13E65E100085256DF00050B882>

[pinto]

31. Hi, for those of us who favor open and unfettered relations with Cuba,

no sanctions, no meddling, no judgements, how do we get beyond the shouting across the Straits.

[Osolomia]

32. Simple, the same way the Rest of the World did it years ago!

What's America's problem?

[pinto]

33. OK, sounds good, how do you think we can

bring those Cubans in America who are adamant about continuing the embargo and "overthrowing" Castro, to support normalization? They fuel much of the political support for the US intransigence. How will normalization benefit them? Objectively, from an outsider's point of view, normalization would seem to be a good thing for families in both countries.

[Osolomia]

34. The MAJORITY want the embargo lifted, so why on earth

do you need to bring a tiny extremist minority of a few thousand Cuban-Americans to support normalization? JUST DO IT!

[pinto]

35. I don't have the power or the voice to do it for them, but they do. eom

[Osolomia]

36. So long as Americans let the Maimi mafia dictate policy to them

they will.

[Say_What]

51. They won't--anti-Cuba industry is too lucrative. They need the embargo

and they need Castro. In the early 1980's when Bernardo Benes was negotiating with the Cuban government for the release of thousands of political prisoners, the Gusanos in Miami were opposed because those prisoners were more useful to Miami propaganda and the anti-Castro industry as political prisoners than free men. Benes succeeded and over the period of a few years 7,000 prisoners were released. For this noble act, the Gusanos ruined Benes (a banker) and even today he remains an outcast. He also negotiated for Cubans to return home for visits--that's when that started.

[Osolomia]

37. 15 Years later and Americans are none the wiser!

Practically this same editorial is being written in newspapers across the country to this day but evidently Dems still don't get it. Go figure!

MULTINATIONAL MONITOR
VOLUME 10, NUMBER 4, APRIL 1989
E D I T O R I A L
TIME TO TRADE

ON AUGUST 28, 1960, the United States announced that it was imposing an economic trade embargo against Cuba. One year earlier Fidel Castro and the Rebel Army had seized power, overthrowing the dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista and six weeks later the Cuban government announced the nationalization of all large commercial and industrial enterprises in the country. Presidents Eisenhower and Kennedy established and maintained the embargo with the specific intent of bringing discomfort and unrest to the Cuban populace and counter-revolution to Cuba. In 30 years, little has changed. The United States has continued a flawed and inconsistent policy. Elsewhere in Latin America, the U.S. government supports dictators whose records on human rights and political freedom are filled with abuses equivalent to and many times surpassing those that the United States criticizes in Castro's government. Singling out Castro as an abusive tyrant, while supporting the government in El Salvador which is noted for its associations with death squads that have slaughtered thousands, the "disappearances" of critics and for unattended poverty, is hypocritical. As many critics, liberal and conservative alike, have pointed out, Cuba is not the revolutionary paradise that many leftists imagined it might be when Castro first took office. Cuba is still a poor country with serious foreign debt problems. In 1987, the country's external debt in hard currency was $5.65 billion. Fifteen percent of the country's Gross Domestic Product goes to military and security expenditures. Amnesty International is still finding documented human rights abuses by the Cuban government. Still post-revolutionary Cuba has achieved a number of impressive accomplishments. According to authors Medea Benjamin, Joseph Collins and Michael Scott, writing in 1986, "hunger has been eliminated in Cuba with very few exceptions." Almost all Cubans have nutritionally sound diets, they add. "Cubans may not have the kind of foods they want or even as much as they want, but few suffer from lack of calories or protein." Ninety-six percent of the Cuban populace is literate. There are 2.06 doctors for every 1,000 Cubans. The U.N.'s 1989 State of the World's Children report notes that 98.1 percent of the children born in Cuba survive to the age of five; this is higher than any other developing country in the Americas. And Castro has been able to maintain these standards while the United States has been putting severe economic, political and military pressures on his government and on the security of his country. U.S. policy toward Cuba has failed on its own terms too. The Cuban economy may not be thriving, but it has not collapsed under the weight of the U.S. trade embargo. Today, Havana is thought to be a fertile area for investment. Western European countries are already reaping the profits from investment in Cuba. U.S. businesses are losing out and many of them are openly calling for a change in diplomatic policy. Castro also wants to normalize relations between Cuba and the United States. His government has made several overtures to the United States in recent years. Cuban representatives have declared that their country is willing to negotiate resolutions to the remaining points of controversy. These attempts might be motivated by Castro's knowledge that he cannot lead Cuba forever and by a fear that his successor will not maintain a strong negotiating position against the intimidating strength and the very real threat that the United States poses to Cuba. His successor may not be able to balance superpower relations as successfully as Castro has done. For the U.S. government, conflicting influences are at play. The conservative Bush administration feels a need to maintain its hard-line stand against the communist threat in the Western Hemisphere. Bush, however, must withstand the pressure of U.S. businesses wanting to trade with and profit from Cuba. And he must also confront the fact that his fear of losing face is detracting from his ability to wield power in the region. As trading partners of Cuba, Western European countries and Canada will have far more influence over Cuba than the United States, which has exhausted its economic leverage with a single, unsuccessful program. The decision to embargo Cuba was made at the height of Cold War tensions. As those tensions subside and as the lost financial opportunity becomes clearer, it seems increasingly likely that the Bush administration will begin negotiations with Castro in order to give U.S. businesses access to the Cuban market and U.S. diplomatic initiatives in the region a chance. It is a move whose time has come.

http://multinationalmonitor.org/hyper/issues/1989/04/mon8904.html

15 years later and look at the Dem candidates on this! Pathetic.

[Osolomia]

38. While Dems cling to their ignorant fantasies

to justify pandering to Florida's extremist minority:

Sun, Dec. 07, 2003

Cuba travel ban opposed

A poll conducted for The Herald and the St. Petersburg Times found that Florida voters, like those nationwide, overwhelmingly favor lifting the ban on travel to Cuba.

Congress has moved to ease the ban, but President Bush has opposed such a move and, under pressure from influential Cuban-American exiles, has moved to crack down on illegal travel to the island.

The issue could prove complicated for the president's reelection. He needs the continued backing of hundreds of thousands of Cuban Americans, but doing so means he risks alienating the rest of the state and voters in farm states where businesses are eager to trade with Cuba.

... Overall, respondents said they support allowing U.S. citizens to legally travel to Cuba by 64-26 percent.

More...
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/state/7433163.htm

[Osolomia]

39. Dems hope no one notices their hypocrisy

Trading with Cuba
An end to sanctions and U.S. incongruity

06 December 2003
Daytona Beach News, Florida

Several contradictions expose the duplicity and futility of current U.S. policy toward Cuba.

President Bush cites dictator Fidel Castro's recent crackdown against dissidents as reason to prolong the 42-year-old Cuba embargo. Yet the Cuban people know that Bush himself has imprisoned, indefinitely and without due process on that same island, hundreds of Muslims as "enemy combatants" of the United States. The hypocrisy isn't lost on anyone. Although Bush shouldn't be compared to Castro, whose atrocities are many, the president's high road to moral superiority ends at the Guantanamo gulag. Once again, Castro can thumb his nose at a U.S. rationalization for the embargo.

And now Bush has further eroded U.S. credibility by ordering the Department of Homeland Security to track down and arrest, Seguridad del Estado-style, the few American tourists circumventing constitutionally questionable travel restrictions to the island. What purpose is served in pursuing a few Midwestern retirees through Canada to beach resorts on the Ancon Peninsula when the administration allows thousands of Cuban-Americans to visit the island unimpeded anyway? These travelers aren't terrorists. Using U.S. intelligence agents to pursue them distracts from the agents' real anti-terrorism duties.

The travel crackdown is nothing but Bush's low road to political pandering. He's trying to shore up re-election support among Cuban-American voters in South Florida, without whom he would have lost Florida's electoral votes and the national election in 2000.

... Normalizing U.S. relations with Cuba holds similar, perhaps even greater promise. And it will happen, in Castro's time or not, in Bush's time or not. It could be happening now if only the American president hadn't staked the island's future against a few more South Florida votes.

More...
http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Opinion/Editorials/03OpOPN01120703.htm

[Judi Lynn]

42. Outstandiing editorial coming from Daytona Beach!

This paragraph shows the author has REALLY done some thinking on the subject:

And now Bush has further eroded U.S. credibility by ordering the Department of Homeland Security to track down and arrest, Seguridad del Estado-style, the few American tourists circumventing constitutionally questionable travel restrictions to the island. What purpose is served in pursuing a few Midwestern retirees through Canada to beach resorts on the Ancon Peninsula when the administration allows thousands of Cuban-Americans to visit the island unimpeded anyway? These travelers aren't terrorists. Using U.S. intelligence agents to pursue them distracts from the agents' real anti-terrorism duties.

I'm throwing in, at no cost to you, a link I found on the internet concerning Cuba's literacy program, and computer literacy, with THREE SONGS at the very end of the link which maybe someone might find interesting:

http://www.communitytechnology.org/cuba/photos.html

[Mika]

44. JudiLyn, thank you for that photo link

http://www.communitytechnology.org/cuba/photos.html

Brought a tear to my eyes.

Man.. it just reminded me of just how I really want to get back there.

Thank you.

[Judi Lynn]

45. If the right things happen, maybe you'll be able to return sooner

than you ever thought possible! We hope for that.

I love this photo from that collection, showing Cubans holding up their giant pencils to commemorate reaching their first literacy campaign goal in Cuba: reading and writing for people who had been denied the opportunity of going to school themselves.



By the way, even though the article didn't have space to address it, I have read that Cuban "exiles" organized attacks on some the young teachers, resulting in the deaths of some who were spending their time going into the countryside and tutoring people, one to one, in order to get them capable of basic reading skills.

[Osolomia]

48. Just don't expect any Democratic* p/resident to do it!

Democratic Presidential Candidates on Cuba
http://www.lawg.org/pages/new%20pages/Misc/prez-candidates1.htm

[nn2004]

40. They'll have to give up communism first

Then maybe socialism will take over.

[Mika]

41. The Cuban people set their own path

Nothing has "taken over" Cuba without Cuban's consent.

[IndianaGreen]

43. Who are we to dictate to anyone the sort of government they should have?

Isn't that what got us into the Vietnam and Iraq quagmires?

America is the only country that needs regime change, not to mention war crimes trials!

[Judi Lynn]

46. Oh, Jeez. Fidel Castro got of a hot one, in this Reuters story

Same subject as your thread's, Osolomia.

(snip) The Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba, created in October by President Bush to foster a democratic transition on the island and headed by Secretary of State Colin Powell and Cuban-born Housing Secretary Mel Martinez, met for the first time on Friday at the White House with Bush's national security advisor Condoleezza Rice.

"This little meeting does not worry us ... they would be better off dedicating their time to drinking whiskey and smoking marijuana," Castro said, speaking to hundreds of school children.

"They hope that 15 minutes after my death the revolution will collapse. They don't know that this country has thousands of leaders," he added. (snip/...)

Yep, that's Elián Gonzalez! 10 years old.

~~~~ link ~~~~
loads slightly slowly

(Sorry for the giant photo on the thread. Special case for the kid, would you say?)

[Minstrel Boy]

47. Will capitalism in the US survive Bush?

Funny how much end-stage capitalism resembles feudalism.

I like socialism's chances better.

[JanMichael]

49. I doubt it.

How long to it's full demise is debatable, because nobody knows the future, but I have a feeling that things will happen faster than anyone here can possible imagine.

[durutti]

52. Socialism doesn't exist in Cuba.

A lot of sincere progressives are attracted by the romantic image of the Cuban Revolution.

We have to be honest with ourselves. Party functionaries clearly form of a new ruling class.

I defend the Cuban Revolution -- better state-capitalist than a colony. And of course, the Cuban regime is a great deal more humane than Stalin's Russia was, and much better managed tha Mao's China. But it's not socialist.

[Mika]

53. Clearly, you haven't been to Cuba

Party functionaries? A new ruling class?

Do you really think so little of Cubans as to think that they would accept that?

Party functionaries are everyday Cubans within the community, of the community, selected by the community. No better off than anyone else. That is the Cuban way (Cubañia).

[durutti]

54. Some Articles

http://archive.workersliberty.org/wlmags/wl54/cuba.htm

http://www.flash.net/~comvoice/00Cuba.html

http://www.marxismalive.org/dossiercuba3ing.html

http://www.marxismalive.org/airoldi3ing.html

[Mika]

55. Thanks for the links. I'll read them

Let me read them b-4 I comment on them.

eom

[Judi Lynn]

56. For people who haven't seen this info. already

The Cuban-"exile" extremists and their supporters have devised a new plan to use against their fellow Americans who are actually doing a lot of business with Cuba, since Congress has allowed the sale of some food and medicines in the last few years. This one is TRULY stupid, as well as nasty:

Posted on Sat, Dec. 06, 2003

CUBA | EMBARGO
Penalty proposed for Cuba traders
Legislation would impose a 100 percent tax on sales stemming from agreements to lobby against the embargo.
BY NANCY SAN MARTIN
[e-mail]

Hoping to counter Cuba's efforts to require U.S. business partners to lobby against the U.S. trade embargo in exchange for commercial deals, two U.S. congressmen Friday introduced legislation that would impose a 100 percent tax on sales stemming from such agreements.

The bill proposed by Reps. Peter Deutsch, D-Fla., and Bob Menendez, D-N.J., was in response to revelations that at least two U.S. entities -- Port Manatee in Florida and the Indiana Farm Bureau -- recently signed deals with Cuba that include a commitment to lobby Washington against the embargo.

''This type of activity should not be occurring,'' Deutsch told a news conference at Miami International Airport, because the U.S. entities wind up ``acting as foreign agents.''

''This is repugnant action,'' Menendez said. ``It's bad business to lobby Congress on behalf of a dictatorship. We can call them nothing less than shills for Fidel Castro.''

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/7427083.htm

Lest anyone wonders about Menendez, he's a Cuban from New Jersey. Deutsch is forced to play ball with the Miami Cubans, apparently, being from South Florida.

This is utterly beyond redemption.

I hope it gets shoved down their throats but GOOD by the Americans who have fought for years for the right to do business in Cuba. They are taking their butting in to unacceptible levels. This may bring the showdown these slimey bustards really deserve.

On edit:

Anyone who's curious about the people the Cubans removed from office, take a look at the way they've taken over and run Miami, currently the poorest large city in America, AGAIN, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, not to mention previously being named the "terror capital of the U.S." by the F.B.I.

[robcon]

75. The apologists for Castro's dictatorship, unfortunately, abound on DU

Among the most disgusting ideas posted...

Ethnic-bashing (blaming Miami's crime rate on Cuban-Americans)

Ignoring the human rights violations in Cuba

This one is a beaut: anyone who attacks Castro for his gulag are answered in effect "would the Cuban people let him do that. That is a slur on Cubans." As is the Cubans had any control whatsoever on their political life.
-They are forbidden to protest.
-The average cost of an anti-government brochure is 18 months in prison.
-Signing, or encouraging other people to sign, the Varela Project gets people executed, or 25+ years in prison.

The most curious thing is the praise of education in Cuba,. This is the equivalent of Mussolini's getting the trains to run on time. Sure literacy is up, but political and human rights are abysmal in the Cuban police state.

[Judi Lynn]

80. You should provide some links to these preposterous claims

about people being EXECUTED FOR SIGNING THE VARELA PROJECT PETITION and throwing people in prison for creating brochures.

If you are so sure of your information, you need to give us creditable references to your sources, and I don't mean the laughable, totally idiotic El Nuevo Herald in Miami.

You recognize the "exiles" are running out of time. As soon as sufficient numbers of Americans get to Cuba, the entire picture will be shared but SOON about what has been happening behind the travel prohibition some anti-American jerks have been able to keep in place, AGAINST Americans' own wishes.

Miami is going to be shown AMERICANS are going to set their own foreign policy, one way or another.

[rman]

84. first clean out your own house

Then tackle the relativly mild Castro dictatorship (if it a dictatoship), which btw does have very strong socialist elements: free/cheap (and good) healthcare, education, with government advisers from Unions, education etc, as opposed to corporations.

Ans then there's putting two and two together: US govermment typically 'doesn't like' Castro and it has strong influence over the media. So i'm not at all sure the accusations about human rights violations in Cuba are as bad as it is made out to be.

[Osolomia]

97. Naw, you don't support the Bush Doctrine do you?

Fact Sheet: Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba

December 8, 2003
FACT SHEET
Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba

"Our government will establish a Commission for the Assistance to a Free Cuba, to plan for the happy day when Castro's regime is no more and democracy comes to the island."

President George W. Bush, October 10, 2003

On December 5, 2003, the President's Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba held its inaugural meeting at the White House. The meeting was co-chaired by Secretary of State Colin Powell and Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Mel Martinez. Also in attendance were Secretary of Commerce Don Evans, Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge, and National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice.

United States policy regarding Cuba is clear -- hasten Cuba's peaceful transition to a representative democracy and a free market economy -- ending decades of an oppressive dictatorship. The President created the Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba to focus the United States government efforts on achieving this objective.

Specifically, the Commission will:

- identify additional means by which the United States can help the Cuban people bring about an expeditious end of the dictatorship; and

- consider the requirements for United States assistance to a post-dictatorship Cuba.

By May 1, 2004, the Commission will provide an initial report to the President regarding the recommended elements of a comprehensive program to assist the Cuban people to:

- bring about a peaceful, near-term end to the dictatorship;
- establish democratic institutions, respect for human rights, and the rule of law;
- create the core institutions of a free economy;
- modernize infrastructure; and
- meet basic needs in the areas of health, education, housing, and human services.

The Commission consists of representatives from:

The Departments of State, the Treasury, Defense, Justice, Interior, Agriculture, Commerce, Labor, Health and Human Services, Housing and Urban Development, Transportation, Energy, Education, Veterans Affairs, and Homeland Security, the United States Agency for International Development, National Security Council, Environmental Protection Agency, Office of Management and Budget, United States Trade Representative, and the Office of National Drug Control Policy.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/12/20031208-8.html

[Say_What]

98. Terrorists, but Our Terrorists (Cuban-exile Terrorists Safe in Miami)

Where can terrorists find safe harbor? If you're of the Cuban exile variety, right here.

<clips>

Ideologically entrenched Cubans on both sides of the Florida Straits have been calling one another "terrorists" since the term
flared up into our modern-day lexicon three decades ago. But after the September 11 jetliner attacks, hard-liners here and
on the island have taken the opportunity to inflame their long-running war of words to a new intensity.

Orlando Bosch, whose name is permanently associated with one of the first acts of airline terrorism, was feeling pretty cranky about the situation one sunny Friday morning in early October inside his beige stucco home in west Miami-Dade. Perhaps the white-haired pediatrician's ears were ringing a little too sharply from the declaration issued the previous day by Cuba's
National Assembly of the People's Power, denouncing him for the "cold-blooded murder" of the 73 people who died in a
Cuban jetliner bombing in 1976. Worse, the 75-year-old native of Villa Clara province had learned that the next day, October
6, millions of people would gather in plazas allacross his former homeland to remember the victims. And no doubt he would
once again be blamed for the despicable deed.

Cuba's Public Enemy Numero Uno, looking grandpalike in a white V-neck T-shirt, shorts, black socks, and brown buckle-
strap shoes, glared from a wicker rocking chair in his living room. "I was absolved in civilian jurisdiction and later by a military court," Bosch growled, referring to acquittals that came during his eleven-year incarceration in Venezuela while being
prosecuted for planning the bombing. "My participation in that act...," Bosch began and then stopped. "Don't ask me. Ask the justice system in Venezuela."

The justice system in Venezuela sentenced two of Bosch's associates, Freddy Lugo and Hernan Ricardo, to twenty years in prison. (The two Venezuelans were released from a Caracas prison in October 1993 after serving half their terms.) Luis Posada Carriles, an anti-Castro Cuban who trained with the CIA in the early Sixties and also was charged with planning the bombing, escaped from prison in 1985 and promptly joined the Reagan administration's covert military operations against the Havana-backed Sandinista regime in Nicaragua. After his last acquittal, Bosch returned to Miami without a visa in 1988. U.S. authorities jailed him because he was wanted for violating parole in 1974 in connection with his conviction for a 1968 bazooka attack on a Havana-bound Polish freighter at the Port of Miami. In 1989, after deeming him a terrorist and a threat to public safety, the first Bush Justice Department decided to deport Bosch but was unable to find a government (other than Cuba) that would accept him. Amid lobbying from Cuban-American political leaders, the Bush administration released Bosch in 1990
after he renounced violence and agreed to be monitored by federal agents.

http://www.ciponline.org/cuba/cubainthenews/newsarticles/mnt122001nielsen.htm

[Osolomia]

103. Straight out of the CANF manual

You can fool some Duers all of the time but blatant lies and hypocrisy don't fool me for a second. With a little knowledge and experience anyone can spot a Batistiano a mile away.

[Judi Lynn]

104. I agree. All coming from a particular, insular point of view.

Thanks for pointing it out.

[Say_What]

105. Colombia worst human rights in west--world's 3rd largest recpt. of US $$

military aid. Now that's pretty hypocritical.

http://www.colombiapeace.org/

Also, the US is one of the Axis of Executions along with Iran and China. Leader of executing juvenille offenders, world's largest prison population. And you point your finger at Cuba. Get a clue.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/2003/usa04112003.html

[Judi Lynn]

113. I don't think a lot of Americans seem to get it

When our tax dollars are spent massively in Colombia, and Colombia is one of the world's worst human rights violators, it says SOMETHING about the PEOPLE who are SENDING our aid there. They talk out of both sides of their mouths, and we are unpatriotic if we point it out!

[Say_What]

128. Just more hypocrisy when the Gusanos and Bush rail

about Cuba and human rights abuses but continue to fund Colombia, which as the worst human rights abuse record in the western hemisphere. Colombia is the 3rd largest recipient of US military aid. The more one learns about Latin America, the more one sees just how hypocritical the US is--not only about Cuba, but about everything else too.



Amnesty International Colombia Report

Human Rights Watch Colombia

[Say_What]

129. Except in Miami where they worship the terrorists as heros

[Judi Lynn]

76. Can anyone explain what form of government the Cuban mafia

is operating in Miami?

(snip) Speech unwelcome in People's Republic of Miami




LEONARD PITTS
It is the arrogance that most offends.

Yes, the wrongheadedness is troubling, the ignorance irritating. But that damn-you arrogance is what makes you need to count to 10.

I refer to the latest insult to free speech in Miami, about which, more in a moment. But first, a little background for those who came in late.

Four years ago, the Cuban band Los Van Van played the Miami Arena while hundreds of Cuban exiles protested outside. They had been incited by local officials who had tried for days to block the performance of a group they regard as closely aligned with Fidel Castro's regime.

Predictably, knuckleheads in the crowd became violent. Batteries and bottles were hurled at those trying to enter the arena, along with a few choice epithets, of which "whore" and "faggot" are among the more printable examples. After city officials helped create the near riot, they had the gall to bill the arena $36,000 for security costs. The arena sent the bill to promoter Debra Ohanian, who paid it, then sued. (snip)

(snip)We are, after all, talking about the same Florida where a rap impresario was once arrested because a sheriff didn't like his lyrics. And where airport officials once removed a magazine from the newsstand because they disagreed with one of its articles.

Both the sheriff and the airport officials thought they were justified in what they did because they were offended. And each was stubbornly unwilling or stupidly unable to understand that in a democracy where freedom of speech is enshrined as a matter of law, such feelings are irrelevant. (snip/...)

http://www.dominionpost.com/a/edit/2003/12/08/ad/

[Say_What]

100. Banana Republic where terrorists are heros, bombings, murders, and

violence are the rule of the day and suggesting normalizing relations with the island will get you killed on any day of the week. Did I mention corruption and the very lucrative anti-Cuba industry? Dead people voting regularly and electional fraud ala 2000. What a place!

[Judi Lynn]

101. Interesting to learn that some of the corrupt Battista society in Cuba

fled to Venezuela after the Revolution, and contributed to the ongoing Spanish elitist, right-wing culture there.

Very interesting signs, Say_What. Downright creepy.

[Say_What]

102. Venezuelan secret service handed over to the Batistianos in early 1960s

according to In the Shadow of the Liberator, Hugo Chavez and the Transformation of Venezuela by Richard Gott, page 30, 2nd paragraph.

[Judi Lynn]

114. Wow, that's right.

I remember reading that Cuban "exile" Luis Posada-Carriles, a man implicated in the mass murder of 73 people, including the Cuban fencing team, and students from Guyana, also worked for Venezuela in some connection, as well as the C.I.A.

There were others there from Miami's Cuban "exile" community. I believe Ricardo "Monkey" Morales was there, he being one of the Miami bombers.

I really wish a lot of people would take the time to start reading on these guys. It would be a lot easier understanding the American politicians connected to them, after knowing who they are, and what they've been doing, much on the American public's dime.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moderator]

94. A friendly reminder of DU Rules - personal attacks are deleted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#civility

PERSONAL ATTACKS, CIVILITY, AND RESPECT

The administrators of Democratic Underground are working to provide a place where progressives can share ideas and debate in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Despite our best efforts, many of our members often stray from this ideal and cheapen the quality of discourse for everyone else. Unfortunately, it is simply impossible to write a comprehensive set of rules forbidding every type of antisocial behavior. The fact that the rules don't forbid a certain type of post does not automatically make an uncivil post appropriate, nor does it imply that the administrators approve of disrespectful behavior. Every member of this community has a responsibility to participate in a respectful manner, and to help foster an atmosphere of thoughtful discussion. In this regard, we strongly advise that our members exercise a little common decency, rather than trying to parse the message board rules to figure out what type of antisocial behavior is not forbidden.

Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other members of this discussion board.

If you are going to disagree with someone, please stick to the message rather than the messenger. For example, if someone posts factually incorrect information, it is appropriate to say, "your facts are wrong," but it is not appropriate to say "you are a liar."

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Democratic Underground is a "big tent" message board which welcomes a broad range of progressive opinions. As such, you are likely to disagree strongly with many of the comments you see expressed here. Please do not take these differences of opinion personally. The simple fact that someone disagrees with you does not give you the right to lash out and break the rules of this message board. A thick skin is usually required to participate on this or any message board.

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See link above for more....

Thanks for your understanding and cooperation!
DU Moderator

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moderator]

110. Please hit the alert button on questionable posts....

Mods don't always have time to read complete threads, so please help out.
Thanks!

DU Moderator

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blitz]

116. Here's more help

A "personal attack" is, by definition, an attack on an individual, identifiable person. What you described is an attack on a group and/or political ideology, which is completely permissible within DU rules. I am allowed to think that Castro is a dictator and to hold his supporters and apologists in low esteem. I am also allowed to express my view on DU and not have it regarded as a personal attack when I attack no person. In spite of your criticism of the mods, they can tell the difference, which is why some posts have been deleted while others remain.

BTW, what's CANF? Is that like PNAC with better music? Is it AIPAC with better pitching? Or is it more like ZOG South?

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Osolomia]

122. WHOW! So the right wing rules eh!

figures.

[Osolomia]

123. Evidently the right wing rules

regardless of how much evidence is presented. Go figure!

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

95. DJ Caribbean Group Praises Cuba As 'Valued Partner'

8 Dec 2003 21:09 GMT DJ Caribbean Group Praises Cuba As 'Valued Partner'


Copyright © 2003, Dow Jones Newswires

GEORGETOWN, Guyana (AP)-The Caribbean Community praised Cuba as a valuable regional partner as the two celebrated 31 years of diplomatic relations on Monday.

Cuba established relations on Dec. 8, 1972 with four Caribbean states - Barbados, Guyana, Jamaica and Trinidad and Tobago - in defiance of U.S. pressure to politically isolate Cuba in the Western Hemisphere.

Since then, most of the 11 other members of the Caribbean Community did likewise, not counting Montserrat which is a British territory.

"Cuba is a valued partner of Caricom in many areas of functional cooperation, including education, health and sports and our trading and economic partnership continues to grow," Jamaican Prime Minister P.J. Patterson, who is the organization's chairman, said in a statement.

More than 1,200 Cuban medical practitioners work in the Caribbean Community, including 600 in Jamaica and 400 in Haiti, according to statistics provided by the Cuban Embassy in Guyana.

More than 1,000 students from countries in the Caribbean Community are on scholarship studying at Cuban universities in fields ranging from medicine to agriculture. (snip/...)

http://framehosting.dowjonesnews.com/sample/samplestory.asp?StoryID=2003120821090003&Take=1

[Mika]

124. I see now that US policy suporters can be called "Bush supporters"

We can't attack a poster personally, but we can disparage a group we disagree with. Like repukes or greens, as a group.

OK.

Just as posters who call the pro Cuba DUers "Castro apologists" without getting deleted, then, according to DU rules, posters who support aspects of current US policy on Cuba can be disparaged (as a group -not personally), as "Bush apologists".

OK.


The Bush appologists unfortunately abound here on DU.




Moving on..

During his speech Friday night, Castro characterized the U.S. government as "monstrous."

Gotta say, that ol Fidel and Nelson Mandela call 'em like they see' em, and make no bones about it.

[Osolomia]

125. "The Bush appologists unfortunately abound here on DU"

Indeed. High time someone calls 'em like they see' em!

[Judi Lynn]

126. In 2000 these same people, in their attacks on anti-embargo posters

used to call us "Castro's Useful Idiots." I saw this going for two years at the old CNN US/Cuba Relations boards.

We were assailed regularly by people who all sounded alike, whose common practise was NEVER to provide any links to back up anything they charged, and to savage the anti-embargo people by trying to label them as silly, weak, pinko, commies, and Castro-lovers.

It's devious, it's agressive, and it also shows someone is obviously desperate to devaluate anti-embargo posters. You might wonder why.

Odd practise, trying to slander, attack anti-embargo posters, on an American message board, who do NOT support the corrupt, the wicked, murderous, bloody society which flourished in Cuba before the people couldn't take it any more and rebelled, for the second time. The people who were removed from office fled to Miami, Venezuela, Puerto Rico, Mexico, Spain and have continued to plot to grab that country back, even though the people showed long ago they don't want this way of living back. The "exiles" have conducted a 43 year old campaign of terrorism, encompassing thousands of individual murder, kidnappings, intimidations, shootings, etc., etc.

Anyone wanting to learn more about the Cuban "exile" terrorism against Americans and Cubans can start reading on the internet:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=active&q=Cuba+exile+terrorism&btnG=Google+Search
(Cuba exile terrorism, 24,400 entries)

You'll find it meaningful and deepening to learn what has been happeing since 1959 between U.S. rightwingers, the Miami Cuban Mafia, and Cuba.

[Judi Lynn]

134. POLITICS: CARIBBEAN STATES ACT TO SET UP CLOSER TIES WITH CUBA

POLITICS: CARIBBEAN STATES ACT TO SET UP CLOSER TIES WITH CUBA
By Peter Richards MORE BY THIS AUTHOR

PORT OF SPAIN, Trinidad, Dec. 8 (IPS/GIN) -- While the United States continues its economic embargo against Cuba, the Caribbean Community (CARICOM) countries are forging ahead with closer links to the hemisphere's only Communist state.

On Monday, Jamaican Prime Minister P.J. Patterson described 31 years of diplomatic relations between Cuba and four CARICOM states as "more than just an historical milestone in the evolution of intra-Caribbean relations". (snip)

(snip) It was Patterson who last December had proposed to his CARICOM colleagues that Dec. 8 each year should be celebrated as "CARICOM-Cuba Day", also urging the group to formalise a CARICOM-
(snip) Last month, the United Nations General Assembly voted overwhelmingly in favour of ending the U.S. embargo, 179 votes to three -- those being the United States, Israel and the Marshall Islands.
Jamaica led the CARICOM presentation supporting the anti-blockade resolution, while other key regional organisations, like the Group of 77 and the Non-Aligned Movement, followed suit. (snip)

CARICOM countries have always argued that engaging Cuba and pursuing dialogue with its government at the highest level are in the best interests of the communist state.
However, they also point to the recent request by some hemispheric states to consider a resolution on "Support for Democratic Freedoms in Cuba" within the forum of the Organisation of American States Cuba summit to be held every three years. (snip)

(snip) The Jamaica Observer newspaper said that Washington's continued embargo was being driven not by the realities of a changing global environment, but the Cuban-American vote and especially its strong Miami lobby.

"It is almost inevitable President George Bush will veto any bill that comes before him to ease the travel restrictions on American citizens to Cuba. The reality is that the U.S. president is by instinct and ideological inclination hostile to the regime of the Cuban leader, Fidel Castro, which, psychologically for the administration, is a critical last outpost of the Cold War that is yet to be seized," the paper said in a recent editorial examining U.S.-Cuba relations. (snip/...)

http://globalinfo.org/eng/reader.asp?ArticleId=26855

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