Cuba travel ban opposed (by Floridians)

[Mika]

Cuba travel ban opposed
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/state/7433163.htm

A poll conducted for The Herald and the St. Petersburg Times found that Florida voters, like those nationwide, overwhelmingly favor lifting the ban on travel to Cuba.

Congress has moved to ease the ban, but President Bush has opposed such a move and, under pressure from influential Cuban-American exiles, has moved to crack down on illegal travel to the island.

The issue could prove complicated for the president's reelection. He needs the continued backing of hundreds of thousands of Cuban Americans, but doing so means he risks alienating the rest of the state and voters in farm states where businesses are eager to trade with Cuba.

-

Overall, respondents said they support allowing U.S. citizens to legally travel to Cuba by 64-26 percent.

Its too bad that the majority of Dems presidential candidates don't agree with the majority of Florida (and national) voters, instead choosing to pander to the extremist minority of Cuban-Americans. D Kucinich is the only candidate to openly declare his intentions to end the ridiculous 40 year old policies against Cuba.

The Dem party should get on board the reality bus.

[La_Serpiente]

1. If they Dem candidates want to take the easty way out

they should make a compromise - if Cuba releases their political prisoners that they recently arrested, then the travel ban and embargo would be lifted.

[Mika]

4. The US should compromise - its us who has done the damage

".. they should make a compromise.."

Just like we should compromise with whomever knocked down the WTC. Right?


Those 75 people aided and abeted the enemies of Cuba, who use violent tactics against Cubans. Just because the Miamicubano Jebster crowd calls them "dissidents" doesn't mean that they are. To Cuba, they are no more "dissident" than Usama bin Laden and his ilk are "dissidents".

These ingrates have been plotting, and carrying out, attacks and hijackings on the sovereign state of Cuba (which means "collateral" damage, read: people) at the behest of (and with funding from) the Miamicubano terrorists and several "free Cuba" foundations (using US taxpayer money - CIA NED USAID USIA etc).

No one can deny that the USA has attacked Cuba in the past (including many assassination attempts on the Cuban head of state), and no one can deny that the US has used the Miami Cuban "exiles" and their Cuban so-called "dissident" network as proxy for their war - for decades.

The Cuban "dissidents" mentioned in various articles are not like American dissidents, discussing politics, peacefully protesting etc, they are connected to violent foreign (US) terrorists who use violent tactics.. and who have connections to w*, Jeb, and the rest of the BFEE. To Cubans IN Cuba they are more like al Queda, in that they aid and abet the enemies of Cuba and the Cuban people.


Like it or not, Cuba has the right to defend itself from legitimate, and documented, terrorists and terrorism.

[La_Serpiente]

5. They can expel them for all I care

I was just presenting an option to the Democrats who backed down from getting rid of the embargo now that they have cornered themselves.

[Mika]

8. Expel them to where? Miami? NO THANK YOU

:wtf: Miami has enough Cuban "exile" terrorists already.

Want proof of that? read,

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2000-04-20/mullin.html

http://cuban-exile.com/doc_001-025/doc0022.html

[La_Serpiente]

10. LOL

LOL

Hmmm...yeah, Miami already has enough ex-Latin American dictators. The last thing they need is for some radicals to go to Miami.

They can go to Idaho since they love Republicans so much.

[Mika]

13. Jail is where they belong

Repeat offenders, as these cretins are, usually do get long sentences.

In Cuba they will be treated humanely & at local prisons, with full family daily visitation rights where the family can bring daily lunch and eat it with their imprisoned relatives if they choose, and they will all get regular weekend furloughs, furloughs for weddings & holidays & funerals & medical treatments by their own local doctor at their local Dr's office.

You can read about the Cuban prison systems here,
http://afrocubaweb.com/elijah.htm

[Mika]

2. 92% of DUers agree

DU poll: Should the Cuban embargo be lifted?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=251742&mesg_id=251742

[Judi Lynn]

11. Thanks for posting that D.U. poll thread, Mika

It was delightful!

I notice that one of the posters on it, the world-famous "redeye" earned his/her own tombstone.

I'm certain that these guys simply get new names and grace us with the wonder of their perceptions all over again!

They are all distinguished by their total inability to actually READ any of the links we provide them which capably answer their questions in the FIRST PLACE. They just keep coming back with the same distortions.

Well, we've got as much time as they do. Maybe more.

Thanks a lot!

[curse10]

3. If we win in 2004 I bet it gets lifted

but Bush will never do it

[Mika]

6. Why on earth would you believe that?

Only D Kucinich has said that he would.

All of the other Dem candidates have been negotiating (aka; pandering for campaign dollars) with the CANF and other right wing Miamicuban "exile" groups.


Democratic Presidential Candidates on Cuba
http://www.lawg.org/pages/new%20pages/Misc/prez-candidates1.htm

[Osolomia]

7. High time Dems stopped deluding themselves don't you think?

Democratic Presidential Candidates on Cuba

Of the ten current democratic hopefuls, Representative Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) is the only one who supports an end to the embargo.

More...
http://www.lawg.org/pages/new%20pages/Misc/prez-candidates1.htm

[Mika]

9. You can lead a DUer to a link..

.. but you can't force them to read it. LOL

[Judi Lynn]

12. Cuba study trips face crackdown

Cuba study trips face crackdown

By Robert Becker
Tribune higher education reporter
Published December 7, 2003

Juliet Munoz left for Cuba on Friday, along with 26 other students and faculty from DePaul University, hoping to learn during the next three weeks about life and culture on the island nation under the regime of Fidel Castro.

"I hope with this trip to unlock the genuine spirit of the people and to try and observe what their culture and their land means to them," said Munoz, whose father fled Castro's Cuba in the late 1960s.
But the opportunity for Munoz--and thousands of other college students--to experience Cuban culture firsthand is now in question as the Bush administration clamps down on travel to Cuba.

Amid charges of election-year politicking, the administration has moved to eliminate a category of license that some universities and educational organizations use for travel to Cuba. (snip)

(snip) "There are political considerations driving this crackdown on visits to Cuba," said Terry Hartle, senior vice president of the American Council on Education, a Washington-based organization that represents 1,800 college and university presidents. "The administration is under intense pressure from leaders of the Cuban exile community to be tougher on Cuba, and this is part of this effort." (snip)

(snip) There is no substitute for walking through Havana's streets and talking to locals, educators say.

"You can't get that kind of experience without some type of experience in the culture," said Barbara Hancin-Bhatt, associate director of the Study Abroad Office at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, which operates a monthlong program in Cuba for its students. (snip)

(snip) "I want to give them the opportunity to talk to people in the street, to talk to people in different organizations and make their own judgment," said Masud-Piloto, also an associate professor of history. "We don't have an agenda." (snip/...)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0312070350dec07,1,4284833.story?coll=chi-news-hed

(Free registration required)

As long as the right-wingers can nail Cuba shut to Americans, and a lot of those Americans refuse to educate themselves, as seen in the posts of a few visiting Cold Warriors working message boards, people like Bush can float almost any piece of crap as propaganda, and a certain number of nimrods will believe it, having no evidence to the contrary!

[Mika]

14. JudiLyn, that crackdown story needs to be a thread topic

The ed crackdown is unamerican as it gets.

[Judi Lynn]

15. Thanks, Mika. I'll do it. eom

[sleipnir]

16. Cubans in Florida?, that's not the REAL enemy of this effort

The Cubans are a smoke screen. The real enemy is, the Florida Tourism Board. Think how much money they stand to lose each year if Americans now have a cheap, extremly close, forgein place to vacaction. Florida would lose millions in revenue due to lost Tourism. Remember, S. Florida's #1 Industry---Tourism...

Wouldn't you rather go to a beach in "magical, mysterious, CUBA" or just rummage with the rest of the paltry Americans on the already overcrowded beaches.

The Cuban-Americans are a diversion from the real issue, which are the millions the state of Florida stands to lose if the travel embargo is lifted to Cuba.

[Mika]

17. Yep. One of many enemies of our freedom

The tourism boards of several Caribbean countries are also lobbying hard to keep the travel sanctions on Americans. As well as the cruise & gaming industries.

All working to thwart our travel rights.

The anti Cuban/ anti American forces keep losing the vote in the house and senate (for the last 4 years), so, in order to keep the lobbying/campaign cash cow working, the 'end the trade and/or travel sanctions' amendments keep getting killed in the dead of night in secret committees, disregarding the majority votes.

It is un American.

[Osolomia]

19. Can't stand a little free market competition eh?

So the Dem prez contenders pander to this lot and ignore the majority who do want the freedom to trade and travel.

Unamerikun indeed.

[Mika]

20. You are absoloutely correct

From the link pinto posted,

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/local/7248533.htm

"Traveling to Cuba would help show Cuban citizens what democracy is all about," said Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash.

Ain't that a laugh and a half.

Within the GOP, the White House and other Republicans determined to woo the strongly anti-Castro Cubans living in Florida are pitted against free-trade Republicans eager to lift restrictions on travel and trade with Cuba.

No mention of the spineless Dems who played along w/the Gopers, nor mention of the Dems who are eager to lift restrictions on Cuba.

The government estimates about 160,000 Americans traveled legally to Cuba last year, half of them Cuban-Americans visiting relatives. Humanitarian and educational groups, journalists and diplomats can also visit, but thousands of other Americans visit illegally via third countries.

Yep, we're really showing them Cubans what US democracy is really all about. Hypocrisy, graft, payola, threats, back room midnight deals, and lies, forcing 2nd class US citizens (non Cubans) to jump hoops for a short escape to Cuba, if they can get there at all.

[Judi Lynn]

21. Isn't that embarrassing?

When did we ever get such overblown views of ourselves? My God!

This megalomania seems boundless. Immature, uneducated, for sure.

[Vogon_Glory]

27. Perhaps Not Just the Florida Tourism Board...

I occasionally wonder if some of the other quiet opponents of repealing the travel restrictions to Cuba might include the many other Caribbean islands and island-nations that have drawn sun-seeking American tourists since Cuba became "Forbidden Island" for American citizens. Those other islands have a lot to lose if Cuba opens up.

[Judi Lynn]

30. You'd better believe it!

Cuba also used to be a U.S. Navy favorite for leave time.

This information was written during the 1950's. It's really tacky.

http://cuban-exile.com/menu1/!tourism.html

[pinto]

18. Here's a good background on how lifting ban got dumped, ex camera

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/local/7248533.htm


Amtrak provision in the bill had huge lobbying support, so lifting Cuba travel ban got dropped off the table.

This whole procedure of piggy backing amendments in bills, and using them as simple bargaining chips, is a long standing and undemocratic finneagle.

[Judi Lynn]

22. Excellent link, pinto.

Gonna read it twice. Thank you for posting it.

[Osolomia]

25. Sen. Byrd: "We should not silence our voices and close our eyes"

Delays in Senate vote on spending bill endanger Bush initiatives
By ALAN FRAM, Associated Press

WASHINGTON (December 7, 10:10 a.m. PST) - The House seems ready to vote its belated approval for a $373 billion spending bill, but a Senate showdown could wait until late January, which would slow and perhaps jeopardize some of President Bush's priorities.

... The House was returning Monday from Thanksgiving recess for what its Republican leaders plan as a one-day session to approve the spending bill. Most Democrats and some GOP conservatives seem likely to oppose the bill, but it is expected to pass.

The Senate meets Tuesday, but most of its members will not be there. They were told they would not have to return to Washington until the next session of Congress begins Jan. 20.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., would like the Senate to approve the measure Tuesday by voice vote, which can be done with only one senator in the chamber. But Democrats have said they will not let him do that because they oppose the way the bill handles overtime pay, media ownership and contracting out federal work - and spending for schools and other areas that they say is too low.

"We should not silence our voices and close our eyes to the outrageous extremes in this bill," Sen. Robert Byrd, D-W.Va., said last week in announcing he would block a voice vote.

http://www.tribnet.com/24hour/politics/story/1081960p-7554193c.html

[Blue Gardener]

23. Explain to me please

Why it is acceptable to send a large percentage of our manufacturing jobs to a Communist country (China), and have a huge trade deficit with them, but we're not allowed to go sip Margaritas in Cuba. I'm no expert on the subject, maybe someone else has some insight?

[Billy Burnett]

24. Florida's Cuban-Americans face no travel ban

Of course they would be mighty pissed off if the US government treated them like the rest of Americans and banned them from going to Cuba, so, they would oppose a travel ban if it were to be imposed on them. Even so, most Cuban-Americans want to normalize relations with Cuba and end the US sanctions on Cuba that harm their families back home.

[Vogon_Glory]

26. Voters Don't Think Travel Ban Repeal Is Important

I'm one of many voters across the political spectrum who thinks that the travel ban for American citizens wishing to visit Cuba ought to be repealed. Even my conservative Republican aunt and uncle think that the ban ought to go.

Unfortunately, not enough American voters rate repealing the travel ban to Cuba as a high-enough priority issue when deciding which candidate and which party to vote for to make repealing the travel ban a big enough issue to cram a change down Dubya's, DeLay's, Ros-Lehtinen's, and Diaz-Balart's throats.

Even in my case, the travel ban is just one of many issues in my portfolio of grievances against the incumbent administration and its allies in the House of Representatives and in the US Senate.

:evilfrown:

[Judi Lynn]

28. It's what it tmeans to the Cuban right-wing exiles in Miami

which gives it such power.

It is wrong to deny Americans their right to travel 90 miles to Cuba, a country which has NEVER acted agressively toward the U.S. NEVER.

The game played maintaining the travel ban, the embargo on Cuba, the variety of priviledges offered to Cubans to lure them to the U.S., to leave their own country (as in instant legal status, instant visa, green card, social security, Section 8 Housing assistance, food stamps, medical treatment, education assistance, etc., etc., while offering deportation to everyone from OTHER countries who are here illegally), sometimes at great personal risk, has involved Cuban "exiles" and right-leaning Democrats, and right-wing extremists like Jesse Helms for 40+ years.

Americans want to put this away. Do you remember the Miami "exiles" boasted after the Presidential election that it would not have gone in _Bush's favor if it had not been for their help?

Haven't you noticed the 17 or 18 trips made to Miami since _Bush was selected pResident?

Are you aware of the cadre of criminal Cuban "exiles" Jeb Bush has supported over the years?

This is a loaded, dynamic situation. It needs to be defused. It tends to serve Republican right-wing interests, in the majority of cases.

[Vogon_Glory]

29. Sorry, No Apologies For the Cuba Adjustment Act

As strongly as I oppose the travel ban, I will not make apologetics for measures allowing political refugees to flee Fidel's Cuba and seek refuge in the United States. To do so would make me the very same sort of flaming hypocrite that turns a blind eye to the brutality, thuggery, and murder practiced in not-so-bygone days by US client regimes in places like Guatemala and El Salvador. I will not play counterpart to the sort of right-wing hack writer who would discount Rigoberta Menchu's moving testimony against the persecution of the Maya in Guatemala because indigenous historiography doesn't follow the established Euro--American model down to the last jot and tittle.

Despite the fact that I believe that the US should admit refugees from left-wing dictatorships as well as refugees from right-wing tyrannies, I still feel that the travel ban to Cuba ought to be terminated.

[Mika]

31. Maybe you haven't noticed - Cuba's gov isn't a US client regime

"To do so would make me the very same sort of flaming hypocrite that turns a blind eye to the brutality, thuggery, and murder practiced in not-so-bygone days by US client regimes in places like Guatemala and El Salvador."

Of course, one would have to make a monumental leap of logic to equate the Cuban government to that of the murderous US client regimes you mentioned.

You see, I have been to Guatemala, El Salvador, and Cuba - and I can tell you that Cuba is a damned political & social paradise compared to Guatemala & El Salvador. Period.

[Vogon_Glory]

35. I Wasn't Comparing The Places, I Was Comparing Apologetics

I've also been to mainland Central America. But I wasn't comparing places. I was commenting on the fact that I refuse to write apologetics for dictatorships of the right--or of the left. If I am against the murderous thuggery of El Salvador of not so long ago or of Guatemala's worse old days, I see no reason why I am thus compelled to turn a blind eye to Fidel's human rights failings or deny that those human rights abuses exist.

[Judi Lynn]

36. It would be good to illuminate what the human rights abuses are

Would that refer to the prison sentences to the "dissidents" who were watched and documented over the years taking money from U.S. sources, something our own government would not allow? During their trials, agents gave total testimony to their witness of all pertinent data leading to their conviction. I am aware of reading of at least two people who were intimately working in the "dissidents'" groups for over ten years, who came out this year to give testimony, one working as a personal secretary for well-known Marta Beatriz Rocque.

Or would that imply that squelching "dissent" from these sources is equal to the outright slaughter of entire villages, the torture and killing of church activists, union activists, students, and assorted "leftists?"

(One of the well-informed posters here can provide actual laws concerning our own government's position toward people in our own country who would act in this relationship to our own government. It's very intense, to say the least.)

The Cuban government, AFTER Fulgencio Batista has NOT been involved in activities of this magnitude. A sense of proportion needs to be activated.

[Osolomia]

32. Your own freedom and democracy isn't important to Americans eh?

No wonder the country's in the mess it's in.

[Mika]

33. Do you see millions of Americans out in the streets raising hell?

Nope.

But we'll show Cuban's what democracy and freedom is. Right?


Meanwhile..

Just North of our borders are Canadians who, unlike Americans, are free enough to travel where they please, without government agents scrutinizing them for their trips to go bicycling or visiting friends in Cuba.

[Osolomia]

34. Neither Canada nor Mexico ever went along with the USA's emabargo

and never broke off diplomatic relations with Cuba.

Canada's tourism industry to Cuba took off in 1975 when Prime Minister Trudeau and his wife and kids visited the island and declared "Viva Cuba!" Trudeua continued to visit Cuba during his retirement and Castro was an honorary guest at his funeral in Montreal a couple of years ago.

Just as many Americans visited Cuba last year as the number of Canadians who were visiting in 1996 when they stood up to the Helms-Burton Act despite all the threats and intimidation and bullying the USA could throw at them. The number of Canadians visiting Cuba jumped 46% last year!

There's no excuse for the spineless of America's travel banned Dems to this day imho.

[Judi Lynn]

37. Cuba has lost a beloved personality

People outside Cuba learned about him from the excellent film, "Buena Vista Social Club."

(snip) Tuesday, 9 December, 2003, 12:59 GMT


Buena Vista pianist Gonzalez dies

By Stephen Gibbs
BBC correspondent in Havana


The Cuban pianist Ruben Gonzalez, one of the leading members of the musicians that formed the Buena Vista Social Club, has died aged 84.
Gonzalez reached world stardom in the late 1990s but his career began in the 1940s at Havana's Tropicana cabaret.

Buena Vista founder and musician Ry Cooder described him as "the greatest piano soloist I have ever heard".

His death follows that earlier this year of another key member of the Buena Vista Social Club, Compay Segundo.



"A Cuban cross between Thelonius Monk and Felix the Cat"
Ry Cooder

The young Gonzalez studied both medicine and classical music, with the intention of becoming a doctor by day and a pianist by night.

However, at the age of 22, he gave up his medical ambitions to become a full-time musician. (snip/...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3302471.stm

[guajira]

38. As I Write this, I am Listening to the CD "Introducing Ruben Gonzalez"

It is one of my favorite CD's. I am so grateful that Ry Cooder discovered Ruben in his elderly years and gave him the opportunity to be famous and travel all over the world!

It's sad to hear about his death, but thankfully we have his music to treasure always!