[CNN] Nader eyeing another White House run

[NJGeek]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/11/elec04.prez.nader.2004/index.html

<start of quotes>
"We're testing the waters," Nader said in an interview with CNN. "It's a high probability but that is yet to be determined."

Nader has formed an exploratory committee for a 2004 run and said he would gauge his support through the success of fund-raising efforts and the number of volunteers who come forward.

----


"I think there's a great need for a progressive candidate for the presidency," Nader said. "The two parties are very much dialing for the same commercial dollars. The two parties are ignoring issues like a living wage."

<end of quotes>


I think ol' Ralphie boy will find that many of the energy his fleeting campaign had in 2000 is now tied up in the Dean Machine. I sure hope that despite his claims here, he lines up behind the Democrats. I think if Dean gets the nod, he will find some common ground with Dean.

[Patriot_Spear]

1. I'd love to catch that bastard taking Rove's money...

I hope somebody is watching where that 15 million he's fishing for comes from.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Patriot_Spear]

39. Nader is NOT my Hero.

According to Nader, there's no difference between the majority of the people on here and the Bushies. Well after three years I guess we've pretty much shattered that myth.

And after all that the nation and the world has suffered in the past three years, he's willing to stand divided against the Bush* monster AGAIN.

Really, I despise the arrogant hubris of the man and the fact that his ego cannot be dissuaded from another doomed presidential bid even in the aftermath of the thousands of dead and wounded created by the Bush* mis-adminstration.

[CBHagman]

75. Amen and amen.

"Really, I despise the arrogant hubris of the man and the fact that his ego cannot be dissuaded from another doomed presidential bid even in the aftermath of the thousands of dead and wounded created by the Bush* mis-adminstration."

Beautifully said, and so truthful.

[saskatoon]

82. If he does it again--takes votes away from Dems

he ought to be tarred and feathered!

[joeunderdog]

99. This will backfire on REPUKES

Many a conservative Republican are none too happy with Chimp, breaking every law of conservative finance ever made, meddling in the affairs of foreign countries and practicintg porkbelly politix like never before. They may never vote Democrat, but this gives them an out.

MANY conservatives are very upset with Bush. I have several friends of this ilk, and there are lots of others who will not outwardly criticize Chimp, but they will NOT vote for him.

Either way, I do not see Nadar as having the relevance to Dems as before. I do not think he will be a factor, at least not a negative one.

[corporatewhore]

48. people tend to overlook naders accomplishments

and overlook the dems shortfalls.I dont know why.i think i just figured out that it is ok for a dem to bomb innocent civilians and screw the poor with naftas and further human rights violations

[Justice]

59. Nader's Greatest Accomplishment: Bush in the White House

I would say that Nader's accomplishments will be completely and irrevocably overshadowed by his greatest single self-absorbed, its all about me and to hell with the country act of putting George W. Bush in the White House.

How Nader can live with himself because of what he did (and not admit that in fact there are huge differences between Gore and Bush) is beyond me - the guy can't acknowledge that he contributed (at a minimum) to this horrifying situation we live in.

I've met Nader, and talked with him. The consuming protection helping Nader was completely erased in 2000. That race was about ego pure and simple.

I have an honest question - if you supported Nader in 2000 (over Gore)and if you support Dean now - how do you feel about Gore's endorsement of Dean? How does that sit with you?

[corporatewhore]

65. i dont support dean

my dad will be redeployed in 2005 whether or not dean clark or bush gets in office.Dean will still carry on bush's war/occupation for oil.He also is pro death penalty and pro free trade. I am backing kucinich or sharpton.I dont just want bush out but a new kind of president in

[Media_Lies_Daily]

63. You need look no farther than your party's leader to know why...

...the NeoCon's Herr Coke-n-Smoke currently, and illegally, occupies the centers of U.S. Government.

Old Ralphie-Boy, with a personal net worth of $3 million, shares a great deal of the responsibility for the deaths of 450+ Americans and the killing of thousands of Iraqis. Face it...your leader, such that he is, has sold out to the GOP. In fact, he might as well register as a Republican and get it over with.

"Shortfalls"? You Greens will NEVER live down your role in the Coup of 2000.

[corporatewhore]

66. i am not a green

nor a democrat but a liberal.I vote for policies not parties.hell if there was a republican with a good platform for peace and social justice i would voe for him or her. Gore also share responsibility for the 1.5 million dead iraqis who were killed during sanctions that he and clinton kept up.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

81. Read my post #80 in response to your nonsense about Clinton....

...Gore shares NO responsibilities for those 1.5 million Iraqis because as VP he had no official power on that subject.

[corporatewhore]

84. Arundhati Roy said

that Staying quiet is as a political action as speaking out Silence=consent he could have and as a human being should have spoken out

[joeunderdog]

68. Ralph may steal a few disenchanted Bush Conservative's votes this time.

Lots of conservatives do not like what Bush has done, but won't vote for a Dem on principle. Might work against the Shrub this time.

[Zero Gravitas]

101. They won't vote for Nader either

A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush*.

They'll write in Fred Phelps or vote Libertarian before they vote for Nader.

[calimary]

76. Hmmm, just can't wait to hand bush another four years, can ya?

Sorry to be so blunt, but I'm in a blunt mood today (too much other crap going on) and that just happens to be the reality. Nader was one of the biggest nails in the coffin in 2000. If it hadn't been for him, Gore's margin would have been wide enough that the bushies couldn't have stolen it. He was a small but certain factor, and I believe, in more states than just Florida. And now here he is, threatening to cluster-fuck us again, just so he can make some stupid-ass, holier-than-thou, tilting-at-windmills, beyond-hopeless point. Is it worth that much to ya, Ralph?

I used to admire Nader for his other accomplishments, too. I was a fan. But no more. He was a contributing factor. Yeah, go ahead and talk about the bad Gore campaign and the media and the republi-CON treachery and the stacked Supremes and all of that. THE FACT REMAINS that Nader was a VERY significant part of all that. Just the absense of the "spoiler" effect alone would have been enough to deny this debacle the critical mass it required to go through as it did. All the rest of it would have been moot. Gore would be president and we would not be in the dismal shape we're now in.

So as far as I'm concerned, the larger evil trumps it. What Nader did to be a spoiler nullifies anything else positive that he did before this, especially since the regime his presence enabled will certainly get around to rolling back, reversing, or canceling any rules, regs, or consumers/workers protections he ever managed to push through.

Nader can go fuck himself. With my compliments.

[saskatoon]

83. Right ON

I couldn't have said it half as well myself.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

53. Interesting little rant for someone that obviously fails to understand...

...how politics works in America.

You see, the side the gets the most votes, or manipulates the system to make it look close, actually wins presidential elections. Those who come in a distant third usually take their votes from one side or the other. The Greens claim to be progressive, so therefore, they took votes from Gore.

And try this website on for size...

More disturbing details on the Nader/Bush pact from people in the Nader campaign.
<http://www.billyjack.com/nader/nader_bush_ad_money.html>


And yes, Nader is a FLAMING asshole, IMHO, because he allowed Junior to get close enough to allow the U.S. Supreme Court to select Junior to live in the White House.

[Ardee]

112. one rant deserves another ehhh?

There are those who see things differently, you know by the way that it isnt a crime to hold another opinion? Heres one from awhile back:

http://www.umich.edu/~michind/84/nader.html

-----snip------please click on the link and read,pretty please


The two states that have been overshadowed by the Florida debacle are New Hampshire and Oregon, yet even there Nader has absorbed all the blame for Gore's marginal defeats. In New Hampshire, Bush won by 7,500 votes with Nader capturing 22,000 votes, seemingly handing the victory into Bush's hands. Yet exit poll data shows that less then half of the Nader votes would have gone to Gore, with a fifth going to Bush, still assuring his victory in that state. Likewise in Oregon, a Nader stronghold (as far as Nader strongholds go), where Bush won by 23,000 votes with Nader receiving 54,000. Yet again exit polls show that only 47% of Nader voters would have gone to Gore without the Green party, and 21% would have gone to Bush, affording him a comfortable victory margin of about 8,000 votes.

But even with those points aside, the hatchet truly comes down in Florida. Sure, its safe to say that without Nader many of his 97,000 votes would have voted for Gore, thereby assuring his victory. But Nader is only a small piece of the puzzle. What happened to Clinton's easy victory in 1996? It cannot be that all of these formerly Democratic voters were captured by Nader, who after all the hoopla walked away with a meager 3 percent of the national vote. Other demographics must have been responsible for Gore's defeat, and in fact the voting demographics show this to be the case.

Despite Bush's threats to criminalize abortion, Gore lost among white women in Florida. Gore also lost among the seniors in that state, who were apparently undeterred by his opponent's ideas about privatizing social security. Nader support in both groups was negligible. Both of these were crucial demographics which Clinton carried in 1996 and Gore should have carried in this election. And despite the notion that all those Nader votes would have easily gone to Gore, exit poll data shows that

self-identified "Democrats" were 12 (!) times more likely to vote for Bush then for Nader. What that says about the Nader campaign is downright saddening, but that's not the point. Incomprehensibly, sixteen percent of self-described Florida "liberals" voted for Bush, representing 3% of the state vote, and this demographic alone is larger than Nader's 2 percent in that state. Clearly, when your core supporters turn to the GOP candidate, the Green party cannot be at fault. There is one person to blame for Gore's failure, and that is Gore himself.

[Mountainman]

56. You can thank Ralf for putting Bush in the White House !

Everything Ralf has done is nullified by his running for President. We have Ralf to thank for trying to get 5% of the vote in 2000. Most of those votes would have gone to Gore in FL.

No the guy isn't a jackass you are!

[Ardee]

104. are you confident in spreading mythos?

Every indicator I have seen shows that significant numbers of those who voted for Nader would not have voted for Gore. About 25% say that they wouldnt have voted at all! Others state that they would have voted for Bush...do a little research, reread your post and reconsider your choice of words, or ,as a democrat do you believe that calling someone a jackass is a compiment?

[corporatewhore]

109. I belive it

but my stupid friends do not can ya give mea link so i can use it in an argument

[Ardee]

110. Many such links if one takes the trouble to look

http://www.umich.edu/~michind/84/nader.html
.....snip.....
The two states that have been overshadowed by the Florida debacle are New Hampshire and Oregon, yet even there Nader has absorbed all the blame for Gore's marginal defeats. In New Hampshire, Bush won by 7,500 votes with Nader capturing 22,000 votes, seemingly handing the victory into Bush's hands. Yet exit poll data shows that less then half of the Nader votes would have gone to Gore, with a fifth going to Bush, still assuring his victory in that state. Likewise in Oregon, a Nader stronghold (as far as Nader strongholds go), where Bush won by 23,000 votes with Nader receiving 54,000. Yet again exit polls show that only 47% of Nader voters would have gone to Gore without the Green party, and 21% would have gone to Bush, affording him a comfortable victory margin of about 8,000 votes.

But even with those points aside, the hatchet truly comes down in Florida. Sure, its safe to say that without Nader many of his 97,000 votes would have voted for Gore, thereby assuring his victory. But Nader is only a small piece of the puzzle. What happened to Clinton's easy victory in 1996? It cannot be that all of these formerly Democratic voters were captured by Nader, who after all the hoopla walked away with a meager 3 percent of the national vote. Other demographics must have been responsible for Gore's defeat, and in fact the voting demographics show this to be the case.

Despite Bush's threats to criminalize abortion, Gore lost among white women in Florida. Gore also lost among the seniors in that state, who were apparently undeterred by his opponent's ideas about privatizing social security. Nader support in both groups was negligible. Both of these were crucial demographics which Clinton carried in 1996 and Gore should have carried in this election. And despite the notion that all those Nader votes would have easily gone to Gore, exit poll data shows that

self-identified "Democrats" were 12 (!) times more likely to vote for Bush then for Nader. What that says about the Nader campaign is downright saddening, but that's not the point. Incomprehensibly, sixteen percent of self-described Florida "liberals" voted for Bush, representing 3% of the state vote, and this demographic alone is larger than Nader's 2 percent in that state. Clearly, when your core supporters turn to the GOP candidate, the Green party cannot be at fault. There is one person to blame for Gore's failure, and that is Gore himself.

[corporatewhore]

113. Thanks!!!!

[cthrumatrix]

58. this could easily be a planned Rove idea...Media will surely hype him.

Who honestly thinks he has a snowballs chance in hell?

One thing to watch....I bet the media COVERS HIM!

[Aunt Eunice]

79. Doesn't Nader get funds..

..from PIRG groups on campuses across America?

Seems like I heard that a lot of universities take it automatically from students as part of their activity fees.

[Cocoa]

2. I thought he was already running

then again, I pay as much attention to Nader's political activities as I do to the Scott Peterson case, they're both equally irrelevant.

[Ardee]

105. irelevence is subjective

to the family of Lacy that trial is not so unimportant and to americans concerned with truth and honesty the words of Nader are also important.If the democratic party wasnt a gutless wonder his words would not be necesary at all.

[pinto]

3. "it's a high probability that is yet to be determined"

He better not help f*ck up another election for personal gratification. Done a lot for environmental progress, but politically a narcissist.

[Zorro]

4. Of course he will run

This is about ego.

[PartyPooper]

5. Oh man, say it ain't so!

I swear if Nader runs in 2004 I'm leaving this country...permanently!

:-(

on edit: spelling (my high school senior English teacher would be appalled that I didn't spell "ain't" correctly!) :-)

[kcwayne]

10. An idea that would be more interesting than leaving..

Suppose the worst case happens and the right wing wins or steals the presidency again.

Rather than have individuals leave, which is a lose-lose situation,
we should start pursuing one of two options.

1) Start negotiating with another country immigrate, bringing our assets, skills, and intelligence en masse. The negotiation would center around establishing a democracy that is reflective of the values we cherish from this country, but with safeguards to stop a repeat of what we have experienced. Say we have 2 million people of similar interests, and we can set up a democratic island on the border in Mexico or Canada. It could be a start of something big.

2) Start a revolution, with a goal of letting the right wing set up their own country. We wouldn't have a chance of surviving a violent revolution, we would be crushed by the Republican's army. But we could effect change through the most powerful force in this country, our buying power. If we stop buying from corporate interests, and stop paying taxes, a force to be reckoned with will arise. It has to be a large segment of the population or it will be crippled, but it is a possibility if there are enough people that don't want to live under a theologically driven fascism.

[sujan]

47. bye

[corporatewhore]

6. Stop blaming nader

Gee youd think from reading these threads that harris jeb bush voting machines or the supreme court had nothing to do with the selection of Prince Georgie.

[pinto]

12. they all supported our loss, but it becomes evident that George is

much more dangerous than we imagined...seriously and immediately so, in terms of lives. I don't want to see his neocon ride go on. I feel that strongly about the danger of this administration. If Nader has to sit this one out and write a book to help that happen, I wish he would make that choice. 'Course it's up to him and the voters....

[coralrf]

16. 97,000 Votes for that asshole in Florida..

and we are to believe that if he did not run that more than half would have gone from the left wing right over the center left to the right wing as choice number 2?

Mr. Holier than thou must confront what he did. He had NO CHANCE TO WIN but his ego made him run as he knew he could EFFECT the outcome. What did Nader do that was good for America in 2000? Pray tell..what did Ralphie, "the Prince of Matching Funds" do for us in 2000?

He lied to us. That is obvious now.

[corporatewhore]

18. how dare they!!!

vote for someone they like and agree with dont they know they are supposed to vote dem even if they get screwed by that dem

[coralrf]

22. That was the 'schtick" that Nader tried..

I am a "Good Guy"..ask me? It wont work now. No One likes Nader and he has a track record now..

[Mountainman]

57. Do you enjoy the screwing Bush is giving you? I guess so

[Ardee]

106. do you enjoy

basing an argument on dishonesty and misinformation?

[Zero Gravitas]

102. Agreed

In 2000 people wh eren't paying attention can be forgiven for choosing Nader over Gore, but ehy have no excuse this time. Voting for Nader is not only so much political masturbation but enables Bush to hang on to power. The greens can't make the argument that there is "no difference" between Bush and ANY Dem running this time round.

[corporatewhore]

19. Oh and the ballots would

be protected and not tampered with as opposed to the ones that were

[coralrf]

27. Ok..lets do this...

I can show you 97,000 votes that Nader manipulated. Now show me the 97,000 that Jeb manipulated. Hard to find? Its because Jeb is a better crook than nadir. Sure Jeb did it: but Bush, even with Bro's help, won by 500. Not 97,000 but 500. I don’t know a single Nader voter in my state that does not regret what they did..not a one.

[Endangered Specie]

38. of course those things contributed to the election stealing

And (most) we here don't particularly like any of those things that you listed that got W 'elected', that includes Nader.

Especially nader bc he knew he hadnt a chance in hell of winning, he just wanted 5% to get federal $$ for his party. Of the tens of thousands of votes for nader, odds are that 600 more would have gone and voted for Gore,

Just think of all the shit thats happened under the W regime. All of it, write it all down, then ask yourself again, if you really like Nader... Aiding and Abetting.

[greyl]

7. I think Dean & Kucinich both

have many supporters who are x-Nader people.

[CalebHayes]

8. No No No, please No!

[Brucey]

9. Is there any way to vote against someone?

Nader was wrong in 2000, and it looks like he will be wrong again. He was the leader of the "Dems and repugs are the same" movement that gave us Jesse Ventura, Schwarzengroper, and other dolts. No, Nader was not the only reason that Gore had the election stolen from him, but he was a big contributor. I thought that surely he learned his lesson. How can anyone not see that Bush is a miserable and complete failure who has put us in dire jeopardy with the budget, the environment, world opinion, and human rights? Nader should feel embarrassed and ashamed and should be begging the Dems to let him help out to make up for his miserable lack of judgment in 2000! How could he possibly be thinking of doing it again? Has he suffered some sort of brain damage? Can ego be so powerful?

[corporatewhore]

15. well its

Yall are forgetting why we did not want to vote for Gore.Shit Iraq was bombed so was kosovo.Lets see Kyoto was rejected.Nafta GATT was signed and workfare was encouraged under clinton/gore buts ok as along as it happens under a democrat.Any way i want to not only get rid of bush but all of what he stands for.and i want to vote change in. I dont care what party it comes from.I am a liberal first.Any my point was it was all al gores fault for not taking a better stand on the issues and not taking into account that some people would gasp vote based on ideals beliefs princeples and hopes rather than fears (such a great new slogan for the dnc vote your fears) i will vote for a person based on his or her beliefs not her party.I really am looking forward to a kucinich presidency i think he and sharpton who have a chance to win against bush if nader wields this much power

[coralrf]

32. That is the probalem with the naderites...

they spew utter falsehoods like this rant of yours. Kosovo was a NATO affair..it was not a US enacted preemptory bombing of a country with only lies to justify the bombing. Nader has never addressed the slaughter that was going on in Kosovo and the fact that it was stopped. I doubt Bush or Nader will ever get a reception in Baghdad like Clinton did in Kosovo..but then again nadir does not care what the people of Kosovo actually THINK..he wants to just dictate his BS and jerk off his ego.

Kyoto was rejected by who? Gore? Nafta/Gatt were the direct acts of Clinton? Try that in the Nader Club, it will not fly here. What the hell are you guys so afraid of? Competition? Its here and it is not leaving. Go ahead and shit-can the agreements. You will just face punishing tariffs and boycotts. Better minds than Nader’s worked this out.

Your comparisons are bogus attempts to defend what was a shallow and self serving action by Nader. Go ahead..but I will bet you a bunch my man that Nader will run and that he will get nothing this time. It will be his mandate..to get the fuck out of our way.

[corporatewhore]

40. did you know

that US warplanes bombed Yugoslavia and the Kosovo province with clinton as the Chief Commander of US forces.the whole campaign was justified and conducted on the basis of what has turned out to be grossly mistaken or falsified information about a genocide planned by Belgrade
NATO, with our country in the lead, killed at least 2.000 innocent civilians in Serbia due to stray missiles and bombs.
I think that clark albright and clinton should be punished for war crimes along with milosevic check out http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ks9pinter.html
to see a letter from pinter that was printed in the guardian it sounds so familar to the stuff he has written about bush Any way clinton did violate the the war powers act and did not ask congress permission "The representatives of the American people voted against this war in the Balkans... Yet the war continues unauthorized, without the consent of the governed." Rep. Dennis Kucinich .Any way thats not even going intohis boming sudan on false evidence.check outhttp://www.counterpunch.org/gorman10182003.html for the low down and some great commentary about apologists to boot And so when clinton signed nafta that was not a direct act?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

64. Hey...

Do you really want to compare what Clinton did in eight years compared to what Nader/Chimpster have done in three years?

2000 dead in Serbia, as bad as it is, is a far cry from the thousands of dead and wounded Americans in Afghanistan and Iraq, not to mention the tens of thousands of dead and wounded Afghans and Iraqis. It is also a far cry from the 2700+ Americans that died on 911.

Thanks to Ralph's role in the Coup of 2000, the Greens bear a great deal of responsibility for allowing 911 and the war in the Middle East to happen.

And on the flip side, Clinton left behind a robust economy and a trillion dollar budget surplus. Thanks to Ralph, both no longer exist.

Happy now?

[corporatewhore]

67. what about the 1.5 million iraqis dead

due to sanctions that he continued

[Media_Lies_Daily]

80. The UN Security Council imposed the sanctions in 1990 while Poppy...

...was the president. Clinton never imposed sanctions against Iraq, and neither did Gore, who as VP had no official power to impose and/or lift any sanctions.

Additionally, Clinton never had the political power during his eight years in office to have the sanctions lifted.

Try again.

[corporatewhore]

85. Voices in the wilderness

led a vigorous campaign to end the sanctions by trying to get clinton and congress to pull their weight to try to end the US LED UN sanctions

[PaDUer]

23. It's becoming more

of a circus daily...who else wants to step in on the action? Hell, we ought to throw our names all in!

[coralrf]

11. Look at how this guy works...

he is so full of shit...

"The two parties are very much dialing for the same commercial dollars. The two parties are ignoring issues like a living wage."

What party just advocated elimination of overtime pay and what party opposed that? Nader is such a whore.

"The two parties are very much dialing for the same commercial dollars.

He cannot get by with that this time as it is clear that many of the candidates are not doing that. This guy, Nader, the guy that ran for matching funds in 2000 has the balls or lack of brains to say this?

Remember this is the Fool and I say again fool that said Gore/Bush were birds of a feather. Gore was for war in Iraq? Gore was for mega tax cuts for the wealthy? Gore was for Right Wing judges? Gore was for the destruction of Medicare and Social Security? Gore was for Enron?

We can go on and on with this mans lies but is it not time to just relegate him to the infamy that he deserves? I live in Florida..folks..that asshole will not get 97,000 vote here next time. Not 10 percent of that.

[PaDUer]

26. Is Hillary

getting drafted? Looks like they're all coming up to bat! Oh how the freeps will love this!

[coralrf]

28. No..she said so..

that is GOP propaganda. HILLARY IS NOT RUNNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PaDUer]

31. THANKS

for your quick reply.. :-)

[kysrsoze]

42. Amen

Screw Nader and anybody who wastes his/her vote on that egotistical !@ss. 2000 was the biggest case of "Devil you know" and anybody who thought Nader should have kept going and not thrown his support to the side which wouldn't have absolutely destroyed the country as we know it was a complete fool. Of course there are obviously some who would do it again.

[Demonaut]

13. screw Nader,..misery love company

He knows all that will happen is a greater division in the country, probably wants a civil war......what say we buy him a souped up corvair and give him an open stretch of highway.

[Catherine Vincent]

14. I know someone can run for president if he/she wants to.

I have no problem with Nader running (Bastard!)

But with all of three years that Bush* has been in the White House have this egotistical buttwipe complained much about him?

[TankLV]

17. Someone better give that egotistical, narcisistic idiot a real good

talking to.

Sit him down and explain the "facts of life" to him in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS.

The PRIMARIES are the time to stick you toes in. Anything other than that is 4 more years of this squatter we now have in OUR White House.

[young_at_heart]

Does he care about his country's future?

I know he has a brain. I wish he would use it!

[PaDUer]

24. Alzheimers...

setting in on him?

[metisnation]

20. whatever ralph

I voted for this guy in 2000 It was a mistake...I most certainly will not be voting for him or anyone else that does not stand a chance to knock GW back to his neverneverland ranch in crawford tejas.

[roguevalley]

25. Isn't it ironic that everyone is ABB but Nader folks expect not to see

the effect of their vote, that they can do this without
having to acknowledge consequences. Anyone who votes
for Ralph is voting for Bush. Its rather like Sharpton
and Carole Mosley Braun and even poor Dennis. They all
have very good points but they cannot win. (In a
perfect world, they would be awesome and stand a chance
but if you really peal this banana, you know its true.)

If we have to be anyone but Bush for the sake of the
country, the world and having a future, then Nader
cannot be a part of that highly pragmatic and even
cynical point of view. Any vote for Nader is one less
for our guy/gal, whoever it is.

If I have to suck it up and vote for someone I don't
want, don't give me Nader dribble about how I have to
let them have it their way with him. How is it they
have to be allowed to be 'principled' and I don't,
not if I want the world to survive and throw the monkey
out?

ABB. Nader, if he cannot see what has happened as a
complete 180 from what a dem would have done in the
past three years, then he's not only a fool, he is a
s.o.b. Sorry. That is how I see it. You cannot give the
Naders/Greens their 'right' to vote for whom they
'believe in' when half the dems on this board aren't
going to have the same 'right' because they love their
country more than someone's ego, including their own by
being ABB.

[corporatewhore]

33. As i said before i dont vote for a party

a ivote for a cannidate i like kucinich and sharpton and see them as the right people to lift up this nation. i see this country destroyed if bush is in office or anybody who wants to further the neoliberal agenda of "free" trade.Do you know how NAFTA destroyed mexico?thats where we were headed under clinton and bush and all the other hopefuls that want to cozy up to corps. Do you think that everything will magically fixed when bush leaves? We will still be continuing the oppression of the palestinians under dean clark kerry and we will still be brutalizing latin america to enforce deals like Plan Puebla de Panama and it is with the harshest realities that i confront who i should vote for because my dad will be redeployed to iraq in 2005 whether dean clark or bush.How many more innocent iraqis and american soliders will be killed in an illegal and prolonged occupation?
I dont know who i will vote for if my picks dont win i might just not vote who knows i live in texas so it dont matter any how

[pinto]

37. sorry your Dad's going to be redeployed to Iraq in 2005, hopefully

the situation will be resolved by then. At least you and your family have a year's notice about his redeployment and can plan for it...take care.

[kysrsoze]

44. What the hell are you talking about?

"Do you think that everything will magically fixed when bush leaves?"

No, but it will most definitely be better than it is now. Nothing happens overnight. You have to sway MILLIONS of peoples' ways of thinking.

"How many more innocent iraqis and american soliders will be killed in an illegal and prolonged occupation?"

What? Do you seriously think Gore would have sent us into Iraq? Hell, we might have prevented or seriously hampered 9/11 if he were in office. Clinton warned Bush of what was coming when that @ss took office. He ignored it.

In addition, NAFTA didn't destroy Mexico, but ultra-cheap Asian labor is doing that right now. This is a world economy and the Americas don't exist in a vacuum.

Here are the big questions: Did Nader win? No. Did he change how the vast majority of people in the US think? No. Did he get any substantial numbers of conservatives to vote for him over Bush? No. Will he do any of this during the next election? Of course not.

[corporatewhore]

49. what i was talkin about

about the prolonging of the occupation i was refering to the abb mentality my dad will still be redeployed in 2005 under clark dean or bush

Cheaper asian labor is doing that right now but befor nafta helped to ruin family farmers devastate the local economy and the environment

I dont know if i would of voted for nader but i know i could not vote for gore.Alot of naders base are people who dont bother voting because usually both cannidates are creeps.I saw this on another thread political movements are not measured in years but in decades .Any way its not about that he should have the right to run if he wants to.I support everybodys right to run if they want to even gore even nader even pat buchanan

[Zhade]

52. corporatewhore is not saying that.

What? Do you seriously think Gore would have sent us into Iraq?

That's not the issue that corporatewhore brought up. He or she asked a very relevant question: "Do you think that everything will magically fixed when bush leaves?"

This question has merit.

NAFTA, corporate-pleasing leaders, the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians by the right-wing Israeli government while America funds Israel, Plan Puebla de Panama (and its sister, Plan Columbia), the School of the Americas, deregulation and privatization of public resources - all of these have roots going far back into the pasts of administrations both Democratic and Republican. The degrees vary, but the same basic sickness that is "free-market" philosophy affects politicans on both sides of the left/right bell curve.

"How many more innocent iraqis and american soliders will be killed in an illegal and prolonged occupation?"

Answer: the sky's the limit, if the current basic approach to the post-invasion occupation is continued by the 2004 victor (legal or otherwise). That basic approach is the "let's finish what we started" mentality that blinds many progressives from the alternatives, such as transferring power to the United Nations, cutting all U.S. no-bid contracts, and taking related measures to get the U.S. out of Iraq physically, while still funding the reconstruction of the country our government destroyed over the past 13 years - and reversing the tax cuts that go to the rich in order to pay for that reconstruction.

I worry about the "stay the course" approach espoused by some, such as Hillary Clinton. I would hope most sincerely that the hopefully-Democratic winner of 2004 will not take this route. We need to be the hell out of the country - the Iraqis don't want, and most assuredly do not need, any more of our so-called "help".

I think corporatewhore may be expressing similar concerns that the candidate who beats Bush will continue the same perilous policies as those we've already seen come down the pipeline from some members of both parties, the overbalance on the right notwithstanding.

[corporatewhore]

73. exactly

[Zero Gravitas]

103. Re-electing Bsuh won't fix anything either

and thats exactly what you will do if you vote for Nader. If you really think that Dean or Clark or whoever won't do a better job cleaning up Bush's mess than Bush himself, then you are living on a different planet than the rest of us.

A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush.

[corporatewhore]

21. If yall are that scared of nader vote kucinich or sharpton

becuase he wont run if kucinich or sharpton gets the ticket

[coralrf]

29. They wont get the ticket...

no one is affraid of Nadir..we resent him.

[ErasureAcer]

30. It'd be funny if Nader ran again because the Dems nominated yet another...

centrist politician.

Gore then Dean.

When will the silly democrats wake up?

And then once again Nader will be blamed because the democrats issues SUCKED and if Nader wasn't even running at all none of those people would have voted for the Dem candidate.

Really now people...you all need to get off Nader's ass and start thinking about nominating a progressive liberal voice for president not..."I'm not a liberal" Howard Dean.

You are only spelling your own doom.

[coralrf]

34. Did you see DK on hardball?

It was shocking my man. He cannot win. There is no reason to adopt the Nader/Kucinich notion that the Democrats must run a left winger to be true to their cause. We will not be able to get a 'liberal' elected, that is the reason that Dean wisely avoids the term. The word has been redefined by the GOP and DK's use of it is rather unwise.

In any case..what is it with DK? Why is he the only true Democrat? Did it ever cross your mind that we LIKE the kind of Democrat that Clark, Dean or Kerry are and that is the reason that we support them? Vote for DK if you like..but he will never ever win that nomination. Is it then just for nader to show utter contempt for Democracy by punishing us for rejecting what he and DK are? If we won’t vote for him he will make sure that we don’t get who we want. Nader has pre-decided that he and only he knows what is best for America and it just happens to be him.

So far all Nader has done is punish America for rejecting him.

[corporatewhore]

51. so he is showing utter content for democracy by

execising his right to run for president? So only having two choices is what democracy is all about? pretty interesting

[kysrsoze]

45. That was a completely thoughtless post

You have to be at least partially centrist to swing the voters in the middle. I can't believe this is such a difficult concept for some people to comprehend. 3% doesn't win you shit, including Federal matching.

Again, you can't expect to swing the opinions of millions of voters overnight. When you have a population of 270 million people, half of which completely swallow the neocon bullshit because it's wrapped up in bullshit patriotism, you cannot expect more than half the country to all of a sudden wake up and vote in Nader.

Anybody ever think of this? If that turdball Nader ever actually got into office, he'd be the biggest lame duck president we ever had, because he doesn't know how to make compromises and garner support for his ideas. NOTHING would be accomplished.

Screw Nader.

[w4rma]

41. I bet he would. (n/t)

[Freddie Stubbs]

97. Nader-lite isn't going to win

We need a candidate that can get more than single-digit support.

[LiberalFighter]

36. Nader has gone senile!!

[corarose]

43. How much have the Rethugs paid Nader this time to run?

He has no chance and he knows it and the man is a self riotous piece of shit.

[kysrsoze]

46. They don't have to....

he's just a f*cking idiot. His decision to run again will be a wonderful Christmas present for the neocons.

[corarose]

54. I hate Nader

He use to be someone that you looked up to and now he is a PIECE OF SHIT.

[Ardee]

107. Oh thanks for explaining it all so well......

silly post really

[gate of the sun]

50. ho hum

and You know i was a registered green.......I never voted for him.
I wonder if he isin't going to sacrifice the whole world for his right to run......what happens next in our election is important.

[Mountainman]

55. issues like a living wage, if you want no living wage vote for Ralf

Running a progressive third party campaign in a tight race helps the Repubs get elected and they certainly don't want to pay a living wage so if you care about a living wage don't vote for Ralf.

[Hubert Flottz]

60. "living wage"

I'll bet KKKarl taught Ralphie how to say "living wage"! Where has Ralph been all these months that Bush has been trashing America? Out spending his tax cuts? I ain't heard a f?cking word about a spotted owl!

Time to make some SERIOUS PIES!

[tabasco]

61. Does Nader have kids of draft age?

Do you, or are you????????

[Stuckinthebush]

62. He'd be lucky to get 1% this time

Most progressives now clearly understand what is at stake in this next race. You either support the Dem nominee and work within a friendly administration to get things done, or you can expect four more years of Bush which is unacceptable.

Most progressives are rather pragmatic about this election. The few that are insisting on ideological purity are becoming less visible and less influential.

[Oreegone]

69. Hey a Centrist Democrat

Looks like a liberal against Bush, even if Dean really was a Centrist it would be alright with me...I never want to hear again about how Al Gore was just like Bush, what a bunch of crappola.

[Pompitous_Of_Love]

70. Inherit the wind

I guess Ralph's going to become the early 21st Century's version of William Jennings Bryan or Gus Hall.

[myopinion]

71. While I respect Nader for the good things he has done,

Pease Ralph say it ain’t so.

If you say again that there is no difference rather a Democrat or a repuk gets elected look at the last 3 years of crap that has been dumped on us.
Use you vote for any Democrat, even the worse would be a lot better and that 3.5 percent could make the difference.

[opihimoimoi]

72. Its the GOOD COP BAD COP SHIT which boosts Bushies odds by diluting

the opposition vote.... which is us.

Instead of removing the Bush with a United Front, he is actually making it better for the Pubs.

And they give rationalization a new meaning with the twist: we all in the same boat, trying to remove the Bush.

Its a plot. I smell a plot. It stinks.

However, I feel the American public will know better than to swallow this Good Cop Bad Cop shit.

[Retrograde]

74. I used to be an idealist

In my ideal world, the Greens would be like the early Republican party, c. 1860, who, realizing that their previous candidate didn't do well, ran a compromise candidate and lucked out that the other major parties split the vote enough for them to squeak in. But from what I've seen of the Green Party in the US - and this goes for most mid-to-far left parties - they tend to be ideologically shrill and uncompromising. Good for the soul, maybe, but not the way to win elections.

Purity is great if you can afford it. Advocating your ideas from a position of power is even better, but it requires playing the game while you get to that position. The right wing GOP knows how to do this, which is why they are where they are now.

I've had very negative opinions about Nader and crew since they pushed through mandatory student contributions for the Public Interest Research Group in Michigan at my college in the early 1970s despite overwhelming opposition from the student body. "Who cares what you think" is just as repellant when it comes from the left.

Linda, who is supporting Clark not because of his views but because he has the best chance of winning

[Roon]

77. Put a fork in us...

we're done.

HILLARY 2008!!

[JaneQPublic]

78. Gee, I wonder if he has a chance of winning this time!

</sarcasm>

[lightbulb]

86. Ralph, don't run!

On the off chance you read this...

Please don't be offended by all the nastiness people cast at you for considering running. But also try to understand that this election may be our last chance to save America, and perhaps the entire world, from irreversible ruin. No symbolic gesture on your part is worth our destruction... wouldn't you agree?

We either compromise on this or we are lost. DON'T RUN, MAN. DON'T DO IT!

[Gman]

87. THE ENEMY rears it's ugly head again

and prepares to attack us again... deny us a Democratic President.

[demdave]

88. Nader is hardly an ENEMY. He is a candidate, like any other.

The Dem. party doesn't own the votes of people who would vote for Nader. If we have a strong candidate with a resonating message...we win. If not, Nader didn't make us lose anymore than the reform party , socialist party, communist party or any Green party candidate did. If you need someone to point the finger of blame for lost elections, point it directly at weak candidates that didn't energize the voters enough to get their votes.

[corporatewhore]

89. here here

i think that it is undemocratic and very dubya-esque to say only certain people can run and only people who are apart of two wealthy corporate backed parties i respect anybodys right to run whether it be nader or gore or hillary or even pat buchanan

[Dr Fate]

91. Except Nader lies about DEMS and tears down DEMS...

...he better not come out lying again and saying "Democrats are the same as Republicans"...

It's his right to run, but he will attack DEMS and tear down dems, and perhaps continue to lie about DEMS. It's the wrong thing to do in 2004- the left needs to unite & defeat Bush- we can "teach each other lessons" AFTER we defeat Bush...

[corporatewhore]

94. other dems do that

to other dems as well (attack lie and tear down)

[Dr Fate]

90. Republicans are sending him fat checks as we speak- Rove laughs...

Republicans are salivating now- "Alright- mabey we CAN beat the DEMS- we will have the greens attacking them on the issues that we cant!!!"

Oh well, Ralph can come out, LIE and say "Democrats & Republicans are the same"-

He can attack DEMS on issues that Rove would never dare touch- and his Republican dinner pals will cut him some checks though...

at least he will "teach us a lesson" or whatever he is doing...

This is a real boon for Rove- if Nader splits the left and tells more lies about DEMS, it will be a problem for Dean, Clark , Kerry or Edwards....

We want Dean, Clark, Kerry or Edwards- NOT BUSH.

[Dr Fate]

92. Nader will join Bush/Rove in smearing GOOD men: Dean/Kerry/Clark/Edwards..

Whoever the DEm nominee is- Nader will join Bush. Rove & the media in smeearing & tearing them down. That is the WRONG thing to do for 2004. Ralph needs to do the right thing and help UNITE the left, not divide it.

[corporatewhore]

93. Dennis Kucinich Could unite the left

he can unite greens dems and even libertarians.The corporate dems are just as responsible for making people feel that they need a new party when the corporate dems ignore them

[gate of the sun]

95. I think there is a great need for a progressive candidate

.....Kucinich.

[Ardee]

96. Run ,Ralph,run

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1121-12.htm
Published on Friday, November 21, 2003 by CommonDreams.org

An Open Letter to Ralph Nader
by Greg Bates

Dear Ralph,

I am writing to tell you the obvious: you have to run for president. Let me lay out a few of the issues I am sure you are reviewing.

1. First, consider what happened when you ran in 2000. You changed the political landscape.


a. Along with Winona LaDuke, you and voters made clear that the Democratic Party's strategy of moving to the right-secure in the knowledge those on the left end couldn't go anywhere and would fall in line-was bankrupt. We had an alternative and we went for it.
b. Your run helped elect many Democrats. Exit polls in the 2000 election showed that 25% of Nader voters would have voted for Bush, 38% would have voted for Gore, and the rest wouldn't have voted. Therefore Nader brought more than 1 million new voters into the election. The Party should be grateful for this.

c. You changed the debate. Remember how Gore stole some of your rhetoric? You should view it as an important accomplishment.

d. The spill over extended beyond electoral politics. Your candidacy served as a huge billboard for change in many arenas and helped boost efforts in a variety of non-electoral sectors (e.g. organizing against the war in Iraq).

2. Second, consider what didn't happen in 2000. You didn't help George Bush win. Gore won. Just because the Supreme Court decided to appoint Bush to the Presidency doesn't mean you are responsible for the action of those 5 Justices.

3. Consider what your run in 2000 has already done to the contest in 2004:

a. Would Dean, Kucinich, and even Clark be mouthing the rhetoric they do if you hadn't run? I'll be kind to Kucinich and give him the nod, but as for the rest, I don't think so. They understand how much they need the constituency you helped define in 2000.

b. This effect is much broader than your impact on the candidates. Regardless of how much heat you are taking in the debate over your last run and over the prospects of another one, I am reminded of what this means: people of all stripes understand the left is developing real power. All of the debate about your past and possible future candidacy, painful though I am sure it is, is focused on this question: how should progressives best use their power? That wasn't even a question 6 years ago.

4. Consider the outcome if you don't run:

-----snipped for copyright law

[Freddie Stubbs]

98. Nader said that he would back Kucinich if he won the nomination

Looks like Ralphie doesn't think that Kucinich has much of a chance.

[BiggJawn]

100. N-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE! for the Love Of LIBERTY!!!! Don't DO IT, RALF!!!!

[UrbScotty]

108. NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pax Argent]

111. Make the bad man stop!

Somebody get me a pie!!