NRA Sounds Alarm of Not-So-Imminent Threat

[onehandle]

In lobbying, a threat is good for business, whether it's genuine or not. This might help to explain the dire warnings being issued by the National Rifle Association as the Democrats prepare to take control of Congress this week.

snip...

The only problem: No one expects gun legislation this year.

snip...

No matter. The NRA is on high alert, and its latest weapon is a pamphlet designed to send its members into fits of paranoid rage and to inspire them to open their wallets.

A draft of the 27-page document, which was provided to The Washington Post by a source outside the NRA, lashes out at such icons of the left as investor George Soros, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) and Pelosi. They are depicted as part of "a marching axis of adversaries far darker and more dangerous than gun owners have ever known."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/01/AR2007010100682.html

NRA Members=Suckers

[Seattleman]

1. We should defend EVERY SINGLE part of the Bill of Rights

The American people DO NOT WANT ANY further erosions of our rights. Period. We should stand fast in defense of ALL aspects of the Bill of Rights.

It is good for us, for our nation, and it makes good political sense.

[zanne]

2. Are you an NRA member? nt

[monktonman]

8. happy lurking seattleman

[alarimer]

12. fuck the NRA

What a bunch of right-wing delusional idiots.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

16. I agree with you, caring only about the 2nd Amendment is evil. -nt

[Mz Pip]

17. Repeat after me

THe Democrats do not want to take away my guns
The Democrats do not want to take away my guns.
The Democrats do not want to take away my guns.

All the NRA fear mongering in the world won't change that fact. Just because the NRA says it, it doesn't make it true. :crazy:

Mz Pip
:dem:

[slackmaster]

32. Unfortunately, a substantial number of Democrats didn't get the memo

Rep. Carolyn McCarthy of New York sponsored a bill that would have not only reauthorized but substantially expanded the expired federal "assault weapons" ban.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-1312

HR 1312 would have added to the list the Ruger Mini-14, a very popular rifle, owned by millions of Americans, that was specifically exempted from the previous ban because of its obvious value as a sporting weapon.

The bill would also have stigmatized as an assault weapon regardless of configuration, the US M1 Carbine, a historically interesting firearm that is owned by millions of collectors.

It would also have made ANY semiautomatic rifle or shotgun that was "originally designed for military or law enforcement use" an assault weapon by default, regardless of configuration, unless the BATFE ruled that it was suitable for sporting purposes. There goes the popular M1 Garand and M1A, as well as several popular autoloading shotguns. Again, MILLIONS of people would be potentially affected.

Here is a list of 94 co-sponsors of HR 1312:

Rep. Neil Abercrombie (D-HI)
Rep. Gary Ackerman (D-NY)
Rep. Robert Andrews (D-NJ)
Rep. Xavier Becerra (D-CA)
Rep. Howard Berman (D-CA)
Rep. Timothy Bishop (D-NY)
Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D-OR)
Rep. Robert Brady (D-PA)
Rep. Corrine Brown (D-FL)
Rep. Lois Capps (D-CA)
Rep. Michael Capuano (D-MA)
Rep. Julia Carson (D-IN)
Rep. Ed Case (D-HI)
Rep. William Clay (D-MO)
Rep. John Conyers (D-MI)
Rep. Joseph Crowley (D-NY)
Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-MD)
Rep. Diana DeGette (D-CO)
Rep. William Delahunt (D-MA)
Rep. Rosa DeLauro (D-CT)
Rep. Rahm Emanuel (D-IL)
Rep. Eliot Engel (D-NY)
Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA)
Rep. Lane Evans (D-IL)
Rep. Sam Farr (D-CA)
Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA)
Rep. Raul Grijalva (D-AZ)
Rep. Luis Gutiérrez (D-IL)
Rep. Jane Harman (D-CA)
Rep. Alcee Hastings (D-FL)
Rep. Rush Holt (D-NJ)
Rep. Michael Honda (D-CA)
Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-MD)
Rep. Steve Israel (D-NY)
Rep. Jesse Jackson (D-IL)
Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee (D-TX)
Rep. Eddie Johnson (D-TX)
Rep. Stephanie Jones (D-OH)
Rep. Patrick Kennedy (D-RI)
Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH)
Rep. James Langevin (D-RI)
Rep. Tom Lantos (D-CA)
Rep. John Larson (D-CT)
Rep. Barbara Lee (D-CA)
Rep. John Lewis (D-GA)
Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-CA)
Rep. Nita Lowey (D-NY)
Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-NY)
Rep. Edward Markey (D-MA)
Rep. Doris Matsui (D-CA)
Rep. Betty McCollum (D-MN)
Rep. James McDermott (D-WA)
Rep. James McGovern (D-MA)
Rep. Martin Meehan (D-MA)
Rep. Gregory Meeks (D-NY)
Sen. Robert Menéndez (D-NJ)
Rep. Juanita Millender-McDonald (D-CA)
Rep. Bradley Miller (D-NC)
Rep. George Miller (D-CA)
Rep. James Moran (D-VA)
Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY)
Rep. Grace Napolitano (D-CA)
Rep. John Olver (D-MA)
Rep. Major Owens (D-NY)
Rep. Frank Pallone (D-NJ)
Rep. William Pascrell (D-NJ)
Rep. Edward Pastor (D-AZ)
Rep. Donald Payne (D-NJ)
Rep. David Price (D-NC)
Rep. Charles Rangel (D-NY)
Rep. Steven Rothman (D-NJ)
Rep. Lucille Roybal-Allard (D-CA)
Rep. Martin Sabo (D-MN)
Rep. Linda Sánchez (D-CA)
Rep. Loretta Sanchez (D-CA)
Rep. Janice Schakowsky (D-IL)
Rep. Adam Schiff (D-CA)
Rep. José Serrano (D-NY)
Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA)
Rep. Louise Slaughter (D-NY)
Rep. Hilda Solis (D-CA)
Rep. Fortney Stark (D-CA)
Rep. Ellen Tauscher (D-CA)
Rep. John Tierney (D-MA)
Rep. Edolphus Towns (D-NY)
Rep. Christopher Van Hollen (D-MD)
Rep. Nydia Velázquez (D-NY)
Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA)
Rep. Diane Watson (D-CA)
Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA)
Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-NY)
Rep. Robert Wexler (D-FL)
Rep. Lynn Woolsey (D-CA)
Rep. Albert Wynn (D-MD)

Any bets on how long it will be before Rep. McCarthy thinks the time is right to resubmit HR 1312?

[slackmaster]

66. Here is one more Democrat who didn't get the memo about not taking away guns

The mayor of Seattle is waving the bloody shirt of a teenager (who was murdered by another teenager with an illegally possessed handgun), to push for a gun ban.

...Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels is asking the state Legislature to adopt a series of gun control bills he hopes will "reduce the violence."

The proposals include a ban on assault weapons...

...The Washington State Constitution provides for the right to keep and bear arms in even stronger language that the U.S. Constitution. "But neither state law nor the Constitution outlaws common sense," Nickels said....

:freak:

What the mayor is really saying is that anyone who happens to disagree with his proposal is not a sensible person. That tends to shut the door on any rational debate.

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

95. Ohmyshit

Newsflash:

Greg Nickles is completely in step with the voters of this area regarding gun control. We're not West Virginia, if you can believe it.

He is, however, wrong on almost everything else.

[Taverner]

69. Yup - try taking guns away from Freshman Senator John Tester

In fact, the Democrats are much better at preserving gun rights than Republicans...

[Tempest]

18. You're wrong in one aspect

"The American people DO NOT WANT ANY further erosions of our rights."

In poll after poll, the majority of Americans support tougher gun control laws.

[derby378]

19. I saw some of those polls - a few of them are skewed

Besides, you should see the record numbers of pro-gun Democrats in the 110th Congress. Further throws those polls into question, if you ask me.

[Tempest]

20. Which ones are skewed?

How are they skewed?

What methodology was used that caused the polls to be skewed?


Just saying so doesn't make it so.

[derby378]

23. There's the 2004 Consumer Fedration of America poll on "assault weapons"

1. Too small a sample size.
2. The term "assault weapon" is subjective and pejorative; no universal definition.

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

27. Well, I'm convinced

The obvious will of the urban population of America to make sure whoever is doing the shooting has an extra couple of bullets to pump into us before he reloads is assured, sir.

[Tempest]

29. You're wrong

There is a universal definition of an assault weapon.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/faqs/?page=awb
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcassaul.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_Weapons_Ban


Prove the sample size was too small using empirical data and provide the methodology used in the CFA poll demonstrating the sample size was too small. Just saying it's too small doesn't make it so.

Good luck.

[derby378]

30. The Brady Campaign definition is not "the" definition, either

All it appears to be is a laundry list of safety features and brand names that many gun-control advocates believe should not be available to law-abiding citizens.

Just take a look at the various Federal and state laws banning such rifles. I wish I could quote the name of the bill I'm thinking of, but I believe one proposed state ban would even target the M1 Garand, a WWII-era rifle.

[Tempest]

34. The Brady site quotes from the federal law

And the federal law accurately defines assault weapons.

I guess you missed that.

[slackmaster]

35. There is no federal law defining assault weapons

What the Brady site quotes expired in September 2004. People who are opposed to another AW ban are rightfully concerned that there is no objective standard for what a new one might look like. There have already been several proposals, and they are all different than the expired ban.

[krispos42]

45. Yeah, that's why the gun manufacturers were able to keep selling the same guns

with minor cosmetic changes. Pistol grips became thumbhole stocks. Folding stocks were replaced or welded open. Baynonet lugs ground off.

Jeez, one of the defining characteristics of an assault weapon was the ability to mount a bayonet? Oh, dear god, when was the last time the bayonet was used in battle by the Army? Korea? And how often are bank tellers held up at bayonet point?

The British made one close-quarters bayonet charge in the Falklands, and more recently in Iraq a firefight turned to bayonet slashing. And that's about it for recent use of the bayonet in combat.

The fact is that an 'assault weapon' is like that judge who couldn't define pornography but said "I know it when I see it".

[krispos42]

79. Federal law accurately defines cosmetic characteristics

Supposedly, if a gun has enough of them it becomes an assault weapons. Like, say, pistol grips or a bayonet lug.

And I guess if I threw a front air dam, hood scoop, and rear spoiler on my 1989 Olds 98 Regency, I can reclassify it as a sport sedan? Oh, baby, listen to the roar of the 165-horsepower pushrod V-6 and the squeal of the 215/65R15 snow tires! Bring on any MazdaSpeed6 for a pink-slip race!

:sarcasm:

[krispos42]

46. "Features that make a rifle look scary" sums it up

Basically, anything that is not part of the classic blued-steel-and-walnut look of a rifle should be banned.

A set of 20" spinners does not a race car make, nor does a pistol grip an assault weapon make.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=131622&mesg_id=131622

[slackmaster]

51. That should include a white spacer between stock and fore-end

Or on the grip.

Blasphemy!

[benEzra]

68. LOL...got that right... (n/t)

[krispos42]

78. ¿Qué?

White spacer?
:wtf:

[sendero]

56. Exactly...

... there are so many here who want to put a shot in the heart of the gains Dems have made by opening up that stupid old wound again.

There is nothing meaningful that can be accomplished with gun legislation other than losing votes for Dems. The "assault weapons" ban was a joke and did nothing but lose us votes. Any other law that can be passed will be ignored by anyone willing to commit a crime using a gun, and just piss off everyone else.

The idiocy here on DU on the gun issue is astounding. Its' not only the right that is stuck with idealogues who live in a dream world.

[Township75]

42. well in election after election...

pro gun control has been a losing position. Thank God most Dems ran from it in 2k6.

[krispos42]

44. The majority of Americans are misinformed

They think that at gun shows, federal and state laws don't apply. The "gun show loophole".

They think that "assault weapons" are commonly used in crime and murder. Nope. All rifles, assault, deer, target, varmit, and other, account for only 3% of annual homicides.

They think that the civvie AK-47s and AR-15s in the local gun store are the same weapons being used by Iraqi insurgents and American troops. Errr, no. A new, legal full-auto rifle has not been sold on the US civilian market since 1986, and legally buying one will run out about ten grand.

They think that AK-47 and AR-15 ammo is much more powerful than deer rifle cartridges. It's not.

And they think that pistol grips make a gun deadlier. Sorry, just more comfortable.

There is a determined effort to spread misinformation about guns. A recent example:

Click here and read the article, then click here to read my response.

When the GOP took power in 1995, how would you feel if Newt said "Abortion restrictions are not on the agenda for this year"? Would you simply say "Oh, okay" and shutter the windows at NARAL?

No. You'd keep a close watch on the Repubs and constantly remind the pro-choice people to remain on guard.

And if the majority of Americans, in poll after poll, supported tougher abortion restrictions, does that automatically make it right?

No, it doesn't.

[MGD]

50. I'm getting tired of even having to have this discussion. nt

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

25. I

So, being a fellow Seattle resident, which neighborhood do you find best for hunting winter game? I tried setting up camp in that place that sells cupcakes in Madrona, but they assured me there was a distinct lack of caribou on 30th Ave, and I was making the customers nervous.

The only other option I can see for wanting an arsenal in the city would be to fend off the minorities. Me personally, I'd just bus the seething denizens of the Rainier Valley into camps.

HAPPY HUNTING, BROTHER.

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

26. I HEART WELL ARMED WHITE PEOPLE

Was supposed to be the title of that post. Damn you internet, you've foiled me again.

[maxsolomon]

31. you may wish to familiarize yourself with

:sarcasm:

written like so:

: sarcasm :

without spaces, 'natch.

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

36. Seriously

I didn't go through all the trouble of not finishing my English degree only to abandon my use of the language in favor of animated message board .gif's.

I'll make my condescending, half-bright, comments in the Queen's English, or nothing at all.

[maxsolomon]

37. as a sarcastic asshole of long standing, i can appreciate the snark.

but others can't. i have had to adopt the :sarcasm: as there are some amazingly literal minded thin skinned DUers out there.

eventually, you will succumb to the lash of the moderator.

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

38. Probably

Sometimes it does seems all a little melodramatic in here, and I think I already hit the wall with a comment earlier suggesting another member chug a bottle of a common household cleaner during my defense of James Brown's death being worthy newscycle content.

Whatever. Cheers, maxsolomon.

[MGKrebs]

39. lol!

As someone who failed to get an engineering degree, I find the cute little adornments to text tedious and frivolous too. I mean, sometimes I wish we could all just communicate with numbers!

[benEzra]

62. Only 1 in 5 gun owners is a hunter.

Dems and the Gun Issue - Now What? (written in 2004, largely vindicated in 2006, IMO)

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

90. Ok

I couldn't be happier with letting Montana, West Virginia, or where ever they'd vote to have their children starve before they'd vote for someone in favor of gun legislation have whatever gun law they like. I realize completely that what wins elections here, and what wins elections there, have an ocean between them.

I'm not going to pretend that I find a big puffed up moral argument about your need to be constantly armed in one of the safest citites in the country as anything other than stupid, and that's both from a personal and an electoral stand point. "Guns, guns, guns, guns for everyone!" may win you elections in Colorado, it'll get you dick here.

[Doctor Venmkan]

73. What's would you call an "arsenal?"

Just wondering...

So, you can't hunt in Seattle. But can you defend yourself with a gun if the need arises? That would be a good reason to want a gun, if so. Even if some people think that's "racist..":crazy:

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

89. Take your Red Dawn fantasy elsewhere

I harbor no weird idea that somehow any dangerous situation will be helped by me, or someone else, even if we're well trained in gun saftey, entering into it with a gun. Its why the police are here, so I don't have to kill people. Sometimes I'd like to be Superman with an Uzi. But not usually.

There's zero need to own a gun in Seattle. We have a nearly zero violent crime rate. Our murder rate, if you take out the lone psycho killing we seem to get once a year, averages a near 15 per. If the Russians invade, I will almost certainly lead my Wolverine cell to victory, however.



:crazy:
:crazy:
:crazy:
:crazy:
:crazy:
:crazy:
:crazy:
:crazy:

[w4rma]

33. I agree. However the NRA leadership has become partisan Republican. These tactics are not meant to

protect gun rights. These tactics are meant to create a wedge issue for Rethugs to run on.

[Zorra]

57. The NRA supports republicans. Therefore, they are in favor of

eroding our rights, if you examine how many rights and liberties we have lost because of republican sponsored legislation over the past 6 years.

The gun issue is a non-issue. No one is trying to take away firearms from American citizens.

The NRA has become nothing but a group ofr shills for the republican party.

[leesa]

3. It's a lobbying group folks...they lobby for PROFITS

I can't believe how gullible people can be! Who is more likely to take away your guns? Fascists like the Republicans who want to poke their noses into every aspect of your private lives? Fascists like the Republicans who hired the private companies to take away the guns in NO? Wake up. If you are a NRA member, you are already registered with the police, quit pretending you are free.

[Deep13]

9. "If you are a NRA member, you are already registered with the police"

You wanna unpack that one for me?

[Doctor Venmkan]

74. Do you have a link to where the Rethugs were behind the N.O. gun grab?

Because proof of that could cause certian people's heads to explode!!! :evilgrin:

[OKthatsIT]

84. You are absolutely right!

NEVER GIVE UP YOUR RIGHTS.

[magellan]

4. There are too many Dems who own guns now for this to be a threat

Six years have taught people what the Repugs are like, and they're arming. (Not me personally, but I've read a lot of posts from DUers saying they now own guns...and it wouldn't surprise me if others are doing the same.)

[zanne]

6. The reputation on the NRA has crumbled...

They started out as a lobbying group of people who just wanted to hunt with their guns. Now, it's full of right-wing zealots. It's the new PETA.

[otherlander]

96. Exactly. This is just fearmongering.

The Democratic Party really isn't all that anti-gun.

The Socialist Party in Europe seems to be more concerned with gun control, though. Which I find kind of amusing.

[Red Zelda]

5. Suckers they are

The message needs to be spread far and wide. Believe me, many of my fellow Pennsylvanians still need to hear it:

We're Democrats. We're NOT taking your guns away.
But THEY are taking your money away.
and THEY are lying to you.

[Kolesar]

7. Michael Moore had a pretty good critique of what's wrong in the weapons nexus in America*

Those amateur bombmakers and the Columbine killers were a frightening lot. Those are the people that the gun owners should be concerned about. Instead, they throw their sh-t on people who care about America. Read the article about how they assail Michael Moore.

*the film: Bowling for Columbine

[Kolesar]

13. NRA should give some credit to Michael Moore for defending the noted gun-user in Bowling for Columb

I am referring to that boy who somehow got a pistol from his uncle's house. The boy's mother had no home of her own and had to move in with her brother. The mother had no time to be a parent because the "welfare to work program" required her to be away long hours, starting with a bus ride of an hour or more to some rich suburb where she worked at unskilled labor in the wealthy Michiganders shopping mall. The boy took his uncle's gun to school and killed a classmate with it. I think he was about ten years old. The city attorney realized that this was a tragedy, but locals wanted to string him up. The family was black.

I had a dream last night, it was about nothing
Take the skinheads bowling, take them bowling
-- Camper Van Beethoven

[Deep13]

10. "a marching axis of adversaries far darker...

...and more dangerous than gun owners have ever known."

Really? Worse than Hitler?

"Axis" must be the new buzzword for anyone who does not agree with the writer.

[Kolesar]

11. It is the NRA Pamphlet that said: ""a marching axis of adversaries far darker and more dangerous ...

"... than gun owners have ever known.", per the WaPo reporter.

Fear sells. I see such language from leftist fundraising letters, too. But nobody does it as well as the NRA.

[Fire Walk With Me]

47. Is "axis" a new demonization/association meme against anyone "not them"?

[formercia]

14. I quit the NRA when they went political

Now, they're just a front for the boys. Anybody who buys into their crap is a chump.

[boilinmad]

15. Hey good Christian NRA'ers....

....what , pray tell, is Jesus's favorite gun??? Something big and cool...one that makes Him feel like a real American man, huh

[-..__...]

21. An AR-15, M-1911 and Barrett .50 BMG

Personally, I gotta admire the guys taste in firearms.

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

28. YES

Is there any doubt in that first painting that Jesus is about to kick in that door and go put some holes in some Islamo-Fascist fucks?

[0rganism]

40. Really? He told me it was just a "knock and talk"!

Darn you Jesus!

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

41. Negative

One Risen Lord
One Thousand Bullets

[krispos42]

80. Looks like he's serving a no-knock drug warrant

Hope there's not a 91-year old black lady behind the door with a revolver!

[superconnected]

54. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Sapere aude]

22. It is a funny thing that both sides prefer to use the polls to support

a lessoning of the Constitution. It matters little if a poll shows overwhelmingly that people are for a weakening of the Constitution. I don't care what side you are on. If you don't like a portion of the Constitution it needs to be amended and that is a tough sell.

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

24. oh snap!

Of course, the graphic novel (and OHHHH JESUS DO I WANT A COPY) makes it aggresively clear what the NRA's agenda is:

Arming yourself against marauding hordes of blacks, Mexicans, Jews, and possibly Asians.

They've left protecting the Second in the dust here. If the NRA membership hasn't degraded to a collection of backwoods retard Klansmen, they'd toss the current leadership out on their ass. I'll wait patiently here for their no doubt rationale, measured response.

[MGD]

49. "I'll wait patiently here for their no doubt rationale, measured response"

because calling NRA members "a collection of backwoods retard Klansmen" arming themselves against "hordes of blacks, Mexicans, Jews, and possibly Asians" is such a "rationale(sic) measured" opening argument that deserves an equally rationale(sic) meausred response. :eyes:

[superconnected]

53. bingo! You nailed them!

.

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

94. Nailed me, he nailed me. I'm singular, not plural.

I was wrong to assume that an organization using racist imagery in their pamplets and pouring money into the Republican party while demonizing Democrats, is a member base to be respected.

[VegasWolf]

70. ROFL!!! nt

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

93. LOL OMGZ! n/t

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

92. Blah blah blah

So what you're really saying is, "You should be showing tolerance and patience with a the member base of a group using racist imagery to further their agenda".

I'll say it: Fuck the NRA, and fuck anybody like 'em.

I will, however, remember to use spell check in the future. You SO got me on that point.

[Vogon_Glory]

43. The NRA Sold Out Hunters Some Time Back

The NRA sold out hunters, fishermen, and other outdoor sports enthusiasts some time back. I'm surprised more hunters haven't cottoned to the fact that the NRA sold them out years ago when it climbed into bed with developers, anti-environmentalists, and the extraction industries that want to close off federal lands to hunters so they can log, drill, and strip-mine.

The NRA sold out hunters years ago when it crawled into bed with anti-environmentalists and the extraction industries. Democrats need to hammer that truth home over and over again from here on forward.

[MGD]

48. I could care less about hunting anymore frankly. I'm just as happy to look at the animals today

But I'm still a certified firearm enthusiast who supports the NRA. Any Democrat who defends a woman's right to have an abortion or a gay/lesbian couple's right to get married and then attacks my right to own a firearm is nobody I can call a friend and ally. I have supported all of these "pet rights" so popular in this party for years when they have absolutely no bearing on my life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness. I do it because I know it's important to many within my party. It is extremely disturbing to me then when I see these people gleefully disparaging the one thing that does have a bearing on my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. If the Democratic party determines that anti-gun legislation is somehow mandated by the Nov. 7th election results, I'll vote straight ticket Republican the same way I voted straight ticket Democrat on Nov. 7th. It's that simple. I won't be the only defector either.

[Vogon_Glory]

55. Do You REALLY Need A Full Auto Assault Rifle For Deer Hunting?

Do you really need a full-automatic assault rifle for deer hunting? Do you really have a pressing need for armor piercing bullets? It's not that most bears have bullet proof vests and are likely to shoot back. Those are the extremist positions the NRA is using for its political litmus tests.

I suspect that most hunters and outdoor enthusiasts have little to worry about from any Democratic congresses. Most Democrats have learned from the last five or six elections that European-style firearms restrictions won't fly in this country and will cost them their seats. Nor do most Democrats plan to pass laws that would severely hamper firearms collectors.

But I FAIL TO SEE WHY Congress should roll over and play dead for the sorts of legislation that the NRA wants, like gutting firearms registration that keeps guns out of the hands of criminals, repealing restrictions against assault weapons and 50 caliber sniper guns, or allowing anybody to walk into a gun store and purchase military-grade weaponry with a smile and a handshake and no paper trail whatsoever.





:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[piedmont]

58. Has the NRA supported repealing the ban on full-auto weapons?

not that I'm aware of.

[slackmaster]

67. NRA supported 1986 closure of the NFA registry

Effectively making it impossible for ordinary citizens to acquire newly manufactured or imported full-auto weapons.

[Jack_DeLeon]

59. Sorry Elmer...

but most gun owners do not hunt.

I own a couple of firearms, and while I would like to someday hunt a deer or something, hunting is not the primary reason that I or many people own firearms.

My 1911 and my AK style rifle are for target practice and self defense if the need ever arises.

[krispos42]

61. Yes, I do

No, not really, but I wanted to get your attention.

You've been reading too much Brady propaganda. Far, far too much Brady propaganda.

Fact: only about an eighth of gun owners use their gun for hunting. So most gun owners DO have to worry about Democrats that have been drinking the Brady-Aid.

Fact: you can't walk into ANY gun store and buy an automatic weapon. You need a special license to do so, and the full-auto gun must be registered with the BATFE. And it will cost you at LEAST $3,000 to buy a crappy AK-47. A decent-quality M16 will run about $10,000, and it goes up from there.

Fact: rifles (bolt, lever, semi-auto, etc.) only account for 3% of all gun homicides (including negligent hunting accidents), and are rarely used in crimes.

Fact: no body in the US has EVER used a .50-caliber rifle to murder anybody. Ever!

Fact: Gun registration does not keep guns out of the hands of criminals, background checks at the point of sale do.

Fact: the only difference between a sniper rifle and a deer rifle is what's in the crosshairs.

Fact: the ammunition fired by the AK-47-style, AR-15-style, and SKS-style semi-automatic rifles is middlingly powerful at best. The .30-caliber bullet of an AK-47 is only slightly more than half as powerful as the popular .30-'06 cartridge, and in many states shooting a deer with the .223-caliber cartridge of the AR-15 is illegal, as it is considered too puny and weak to humanely kill.

Fact: pistol grips don't make rifles more deadly. They make them more ergonomic.

Fact: A bayonet mount makes a gun an 'assault weapon'? When the hell did bayonet-tipped rifles become a criminal tool?!?!?!?

Fact: gun registration does not prevent crime, gun or otherwise. Neither does banning "assault weapons", or .50 caliber rifles. How do I know this? Look at California.

In California, new "assault weapons" (i.e., scary-lookin' guns) are banned, and old ones are registered with the state. High-capacity magazines are banned, as are .50 caliber rifles. All handguns are registered as well. There is a 10-day waiting period, and you can't buy more than one handgun every 30 days. All handguns made or sold in California must be tested by the CA Dept. of Justice to see if it is an "unsafe handgun". You also need a state-issued Safety Certificate to buy a handgun. And there are plenty of hoops to jump through if you want to try to get a concealed carry permit, including up to 24 hours of instruction, mandatory fingerprinting, and an optional psycological test. And the sheriff can put any restriction on your carry permit or refuse to issue it outright, at his discretion.

South Dakota has none of this, just a 48 hour waiting period on handguns, waived if you have a concealed pistol permit, which takes 24 hours to get. Unlike California, it is not up to the sheriff if you can get one. If you qualify (no violent crimes, US citizen, state resident, sane, over 21, non-drug-abuser, no felonies), the sheriff MUST issue you one It's even legal to have a loaded gun in the passenger area of a car, as long as it's not concealed.

So, where do you want to be at 2am Saturday morning, the bad part of Sioux Falls or the bad part of Los Angeles?

Oh, and being able to see, that is, having eyesight, is NOT a requirement for a concealed-carry permit in South Dakota. That blind guy with the red-and-white cane over there? He can legally carry a high-capacity pistol, so watch for who you try to mug!

[davsand]

77. Have you not heard about the increase in the reported incidents?

Drive by Bayonetings are on the upswing. This is "hugh."


When you said, "Fact: A bayonet mount makes a gun an 'assault weapon'? When the hell did bayonet-tipped rifles become a criminal tool?!?!?!?" I just about spit coffee on my keyboard.

:spray:


I honestly think there is every bit as much hysteria on the subject of guns as there is about any of the other hot button issues.

The Middle East, Abortion, Gay Marriage, Animal Rights, Flag Burning, Racism, Sexism--ANYTHING that pisses people off (insert your own personal issue here!) is guaranteed to generate a debate or maybe even a brawl. If you are a special interest group it is your mission to start those debates. The NRA is doing their thing. NARAL, the VFW, VFP, PETA, ACLU, and (insert any other special interest group here) is doing the same thing.

How anyone responds to that message on any given day is dictated by how they FEEL personally on the subject and by how many facts in support or opposition they can muster at the time. Generally the hysteria level seems to correlate to the level of facts they have at hand.

Personally, I'd hate to see the Dems get distracted by this particular discussion when there are other issues I think are more pressing.

Regards!


Laura

[benEzra]

63. Learn a little about Federal firearms law, please...

Do you really need a full-automatic assault rifle for deer hunting?

(1) All automatic weapons, including actual assault rifles, have been tightly controlled for 72 years, and nobody is trying to change that. Possession of one without government permission (BATFE Form 4) is a 10-year Federal felony.

(2) WTF does "deer hunting" have to do with whether or not I "need" a particular rifle? Only 1 in 5 gun owners is a hunter; the overwhelming majority of us aren't.

It's misconceptions like this--and the gullibility they lead to--that makes some Dems look bad on the gun issue.

Dems and the Gun Issue - Now What? (written in 2004, largely vindicated in 2006, IMO)

Do you really have a pressing need for armor piercing bullets?

Kevlar-piercing bullets for any gun that matters have been banned by Federal law since 1986, by a law the NRA helped write. Where are you going with this?

It's not that most bears have bullet proof vests and are likely to shoot back.

Any bear rifle or deer rifle will shoot through a whole stack of "bulletproof vests" like they're made of Saran wrap. Kevlar body armor is made to stop handgun rounds, not rifle rounds.

Any hunting rifle will defeat any Kevlar vest, based on simple physics.

Those are the extremist positions the NRA is using for its political litmus tests.

It sounds like your perception is a straw man construct.

[benEzra]

64. I agree...

I can't say I would necessarily vote a repub ticket, but I will withhold my vote from any candidate who promises to screw around in our family's gun safe. FWIW, I am not currently an NRA member, and (like most gun owners) I'm not a hunter, either.

The gun issue was OFF THE TABLE in 2006--a big reason why Dems were able to swing the senate, FWIW (Webb, Tester, etc.). Let's keep it that way, shall we?

Is staying the hell out of people's gun safes really so complicated?



---------
Dems and the Gun Issue - Now What? (written in 2004, largely vindicated in 2006, IMO)

[Kolesar]

52. The old GOP "whose side are you on?" question

The same question they asked of the automakers to get them to withdraw from President Clinton's project to reform health care. The insurance companies pulled the automakers back into the republican fold.

[benEzra]

65. Hunting is irrelevant to the gun issue...

as the Kerry/Edwards campaign found out the hard way in '04. Only a small minority of gun owners are hunters (1 in 5, and falling); most gun owners own guns for defensive purposes or recreational target shooting, precisely the classes of guns that the prohibitionists wish to ban.

I am not currently an NRA member (used to be, decided to let my membership lapse), but this misconception that the gun issue is somehow about hunting guns has cost otherwise good Dem candidates a lot of elections.


------
Dems and the Gun Issue - Now What? (written in '04, largely vindicated in '06, IMO)

[Vogon_Glory]

75. Hunters Aren't Served by The NRA Still A Good Issue

Let's assume that ad argumentum, you're right, and that most firearms owners don't hunt.

Nevertheless, I still think that the fact that the NRA isn't serving hunters well ought to be highlighted. While most gun-owners may live in the suburbs and exurbs, most places that profit from hunting are the rural areas. It is the hunting community, not firearms collectors, that pump millions of dollars into small rural communities through the sales of ammunition, camping gear, deer processing, and food during hunting season. By huddling with the same right-wingers who pamper the extraction industries and gut environmental protections, the NRA is selling out hunters for political power.

[sofa king]

71. They sold us out, too.

They could easily have attracted Democratic gun-owners to the fold by speaking out forcefully on the election thefts of 2000 and 2004.

I think the real purpose of the 2nd amendment isn't found in the Constitution, but in our Declaration of Independence: we have the right to toss out tyrants. It follows that we have the right to keep weapons for that purpose.

But as that dismal day has approached as close as perhaps it has ever come since 1783, the NRA has been firmly in the pocket of the oligarchs who seek to stifle and control our democracy for their own ends.

They'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.

[pinniped]

60. These nutcases must have a separate pamphlet warning of the U.N....

and its plan for disarming the Merkan populace and for world domination.

We don't need Soros to allegedly revoke the Bill of Rights, their stupid presidunce is doing just fine on his own.

Soros is described as "the Hungarian-born billionaire bankroller of a globalist jihad against firearm freedom" who has been "trying to revoke the Bill of Rights through his checkbook."


Oh, didn't they once claim to have 5,000,000 members?

[twilliams82]

72. I agree

I agree, leave the gun issue alone.

Why don't we pass a bill, that forces our government to keep the gun laws(no more restrictive gun laws) we have and be done with the gun issue.

Enforce the laws we have, and be done with this. We have enough issues(IRAQ, invasion of privacy, Gay marriage, abortion etc) without robbing our citizens of further rights.

TW

[mitchum]

76. The NRA (National Republican Assholes) cares jack shit about...

the 2nd amendment

[Bandit]

81. Why can't those damn Democrats "get it"

America will never be safe until every single American, from ages one to one hundred carries a firearm..:sarcasm: Then we will no longer ever hear about gun related deaths or injuries..We used to call it MAD..Mutually Assured Destruction...

[Doctor Venmkan]

82. No one, certainly not the NRA, says that EVERYONE should own a firearm...

Guys like me say that everyone who wants one, and who is safe, competent, and responsible should be able to own one IF THEY CHOOSE.

Funny how the Democratic party can get almost 100% behind a woman's "right to choose" what to do with her own body, but some of the leadership, and what looks to me like a majority of the members, want to limit, restrict, or outright TAKE AWAY one of the most effective "choices" she can employ to DEFEND that body.....

[slackmaster]

83. "No one expects gun legislation this year." - ???

H.R.96

Title: To require criminal background checks on all firearms transactions occurring at events that provide a venue for the sale, offer for sale, transfer, or exchange of firearms, and for other purposes.

Sponsor: Rep Castle, Michael N. (introduced 1/4/2007) Cosponsors (3)

Latest Major Action: 1/4/2007 Referred to House committee. Status: Referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary.

SUMMARY AS OF:
1/4/2007--Introduced.

Gun Show Loophole Closing Act of 2007 - Amends the federal criminal code to provide for regulation of firearms transfers at special firearms events (events at which 75 or more firearms are offered or exhibited for sale, exchange, or transfer if one or more of the firearms has been shipped or transported in, or otherwise affects, interstate or foreign commerce, excluding an offer or exhibit of firearms: (1) by an individual, from that individual's personal collection, at that individual's private residence, if the individual is not required to be licensed; and (2) at events conducted and attended by permanent or annual dues paying members of private, not-for-profit organizations whose primary purpose is owning and maintaining real property for hunting activities).

Prohibits any person from operating a special firearms event without notifying the Attorney General. Sets forth: (1) responsibilities of special firearms events operators and of firearms licensees and transferors other than licensees at such events, including with regard to criminal background checks; (2) special firearms event license application requirements; and (3) penalties for violation of this Act.

Authorizes a state to apply to the Attorney General for, and sets forth criteria for, certification of the 24-hour verification authority of that state with respect to criminal background checks....

COSPONSORS(3), ALPHABETICAL : (Sort: by date)

Rep Kirk, Mark Steven - 1/4/2007
Rep McCarthy, Carolyn - 1/4/2007
Rep Shays, Christopher - 1/4/2007

See http://thomas.loc.gov/

My comment:

I think this is the wrong approach to the issue. It would cause a proliferation of mini-gunshows with fewer than 75 firearms offered for sale at a given time.

I would rather see the NICS background check system made available for use by the general public. Now only type 01 Federal Firearms License holders (licensed gun dealers) can use it.

[Doctor Venmkan]

86. Since the first salvo was fired by a Repuke....

...how SWEET it would be for Democrats to counter with something like your suggestion of letting ANYONE have access to the NICS system for gun sales.

"Gunshow loophole" = CLOSED.
Republicans = PWN3D!!!
Party platform = UPHELD!

Though, since that whole bit about "supporting the 2nd Amendment" is part of that platform, IIRC, I'd imagine that at least some people here would not be all that thrilled overall....

[slackmaster]

88. I'm glad you noticed that, Doc

Personally I don't care much about party affiliation. In my hierarchy of deciding who gets my vote, it's near the bottom of the stack. I care only about positions on issues, and on character in general.

[yewberry]

85. Have you folks seen the thing?

It's gorgeous and awful. (Also pretty racist and frequently less-than-truthful.)

It's big, but you can download it as a pdf through BoingBoing
and Wonkette has a commentary and some good images for our friends on dial-up.

[slackmaster]

87. Wonkette's "commentary" is hyperbolic bullcrap

The NRA pamphlet is ugly enough on its own. Wonkette's unvarnished agitprop adds no value to any discussion about it.

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

91. Or it was

A pretty accurate take on how people outside your community feel about your most powerful lobby walking lockstep with a crazed, racist minority in this country.