Iran shoots down U.S. spy drone amid growing military pressure

[Roland99]

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-01/17/content_5615540.htm

TEHRAN, Jan. 16 (Xinhua) -- Iranian troops have shot down a U.S. pilotless spy plane recently, an Iranian lawmaker announced on Tuesday as the Islamic Republic was facing increasing military pressure from its arch rival -- the United States.

The aircraft was brought down when it was trying to cross the borders "during the last few days," Seyed Nezam Mola Hoveizeh, a member of the parliament, was quoted by the local Fars News Agency as saying.

The lawmaker gave no exact date of the shooting-down or any other details about the incident, but he said that "the United States sent such spy drones to the region every now and then."

The announcement came amid reports that the United States is increasingly flexing its muscles to counter Iran's growing regional assertiveness and put more pressure on Tehran over its controversial nuclear programs.

:scared:

[Bhaisahab]

1. not good.

escalation begets escalation. and soon, the point of no return will be reached. exactly what the chimp wants.

[Roland99]

2. I remember the morning of 9/11 hearing that Iraq had shot down a drone.

'bout time for some more "terra", eh?

[psychopomp]

49. I seem to remember after 9/11 Iran offering to *help* the US

in its "war on terror." Am I mistaken? Iran helped the US publicly and covertly in a concrete manner, IIRC.

[G Hawes]

52. Really?

I don't recall ever hearing anything like that at the time, or since. Where did you hear it, on a local news station or radio or ??

[Roland99]

60. It had been on the news on the radio on my drive in.

[David__77]

12. Iran shooting it down is not an "escalation."

Iran is simply defending its sovereign borders against invasion.

[pampango]

30. It matters what they meant by "trying to cross the borders".

Either it crossed the border into Iran or it didn't. If the drone stayed on the Iraqi side of the border, while gathering intelligence, there is not much that Iran can do about that. If it crossed into Iranian territory, then Iran has every right to shoot it down.

[coalition_unwilling]

62. Is it being a poor sport to be rooting for Iran? n/t

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

66. Not a poor sport at all ...

as long as it's just "material" in the game. If our kids get ordered to march into Iran, you might not want to root for their annihilation. Or at least, don't cheer too loudly as the death count rises. Bad form, that.

[OKIsItJustMe]

35. Not exactly Gary Powers, but not good.

This is getting a bit too scary. I wish we had smarter/calmer people in charge.

[peacetalksforall]

3. Counter this with our attack on their consulate. TIT TAT HUFF

PUFF BLOW YOUR XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX DOWN. TO CRY OVER. MADMEN AT BOTH ENDS AND IN THE MIDDLE.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. It is not the act of a madman to defend one's territory.

We have no right to send our aircraft into Iran. They have every right to shoot down any plane of ours that is in their airspace without their permission. There is no equivalence here.

[peacetalksforall]

31. Once again I was too cryptic. Assuming some in this country will

erupt at the news or rumor that one of our spy planes was shot down, I suggested that any eruption of the act by Iran, if true, must be countered with sharing the knowledge that the U.S. just invaded Iran's space in the form of an attack on a Consulate of theirs.

If true, we invaded their Consulate.
If true, we invaded their border by overflying it.
If true, they shot the drone down in defense.

Of course, they should protect their borders.

Just as we would be howling if our Consulate was invaded or their aircraft flew into our country.

These are both acts of war by the U.S., if true. If true, it's obvious our 'leaders' are goading and getting ready to have something even worse than shooting down a drone happen so that they can have their justification to alarm and win offended Americans. Redux.

These acts now are a tit for tat in an Israel-Palestine way because both claim they are defending and no one knows how it started. But, we may know, this time.

We should educate others.

[pampango]

33. This article did not say that the drone was in Iranian air space.

It was "was trying to cross the borders." If it was in their airspace, they had every right to shoot it down. If it wasn't then they don't.

[daleo]

41. I think we would be hearing very loud noises from Washington

If the drone was still on the Iraqi side of border when it was shot down. The fact that we haven't is an excellent indication that it was on the Iranian side.

[pampango]

43. Perhaps, but you would also expect the Iranian side to be

making the claim loudly and often that it was on their side of the border, rather than that it was "trying to cross the border."

[daleo]

53. Both sides are being pretty coy about the details

So they may want to leave themselves some wiggle room, and see how it plays out. The way Bush has been acting I would have expected him to play it up, if he could make the case that the shootdown was on the Iraqi side of the border. But who knows? This may only be an opening gambit.

On edit: here is an amusing bit of googlania, on the subject. I searched on the term "Iran shootdown U.S. drone" and came up with a number of sources. Google then asked "Did you mean to search for "Iraq shootdown U.S. drone?"". Does the google know something?

[coalition_unwilling]

63. Well, actually Iran does have a right, under Bush's theory of "preemptive war".

Aren't they entitled to shoot down a plane before it can cross their borders under the same rationale that allowed Bush to invade Iraq before it posed an imminent national security threat? (I'm being facetious, but only to show how dangerous and destructive theories like 'preemptive war' can be, especially when deployed by madmen like * or Hitler, who used similar rationale to justify invading Poland in 1939.)

[Warren Stupidity]

4. Did congress give Bush the authority to invade Iran?

Sending military planes deliberately into Iranian territory is an act of war. Was congress notified under the 1973 war powers resolution?

Will congress stand up and say no to this insanity?

[BayCityProgressive]

6. Does it matter?

He is going to do it anyways and many Dems will jump in his lap along with Tony Blair.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

7. Voters didn't want another war so congress had better get its act together!

enough is enough of this Bush administration

[Dover]

16. Or what? U.S. citizens put up relatively little resistance to the first invasion

of the Gulf I and now Gulf II. We The People, are of little concern to them.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

17. I think they may be seeing the light at last

[Warren Stupidity]

9. Well yes it does matter.

It is the law.

[ShockediSay]

15. No. It was part of the Grand Design

of the NeoConzionistas.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/11/7/154220.shtml

[Imagevision]

55. NeoConzionistas didn't figure on Bush being in such deep sh*t, so they hit Iran, whatever

it takes for Bush to regain control of HIS war. I believe the US. has been in Dictatorland and made up silly reasons for saying; "no, it isn't so" We have a madman in control and he happens to be a US. president. not good!! kinda makes me wish I could be on the moon until this all washes over...

[rodeodance]

11. NO

[Imagevision]

57. Bush has 2 carrier groups there, 10-12 more days or Bush may time it so when they

have the surge vote in congress, BOOM! the US. just protected itself from attack from the Iranians while Israel burns..

[DearAbby]

8. Congress needs to address this IMMEDIATELY

Find out if this falls under the War Powers Act? Does B*it have the authority to go into Iran with the IWR? Also get a vote about Iran. Stop B*it! Do it NOW!

[Rosa Luxemburg]

18. may be they need Bill Clinton's help on this one?

[tabasco]

22. If you mean help staying out of wars, damn right! n/t

Shouldn't you be part of the "surge?"

[natrat]

36. or hillary's? thats a joke

[Supersedeas]

59. Time for some real oversight

[Theduckno2]

10. Aren't some of the Predator drones armed with Hellfire missles?

If this were the case here, wouldn't that be a military incursion and not just a spying mission?

This sounds like they are probing Iranian defenses.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. It doesn't matter if they are armed or unarmed.

Deliberately violating the airspace of another country is a violation of their sovereignty and an act of war. Iran has every right to shoot down our planes in their airspace.

In these situations just turn the thing around. If Iran sent a spy plane into our airspace, not only would we shoot it down instantly, but we would immediately retaliate with a military strike against Iran.

[Recursion]

23. Well...

No, not really. Countries fly spy planes over each other's territory all the time. It's an act of espionage, not of war. Spy planes and drones get shot down (remember the U2?) The simple act of espionage has not, to my knowledge, ever been used as a causus belli.

If the drone was armed that's another story. But the Iranians aren't claiming that.

[Warren Stupidity]

26. "Spy planes and drones get shot down"

Without a crisis? Frequently? The U2 incident was a major diplomatic crisis between the US and the USSR because it was an act of war. China shot down one of our spy planes early in the Bush administration, and once again it was a major international incident.

"Countries fly spy planes over each other's territory all the time" no we fly our planes over other nations all the time in violation of their sovereignty. Nobody else does this except the Israelis, who do it to their neighbors with the same sort of arrogance. We do this with impunity, and if anyone else did this to us we would go to war with them.

[Recursion]

27. That's just not true

China still overflies regional and international airspace, including ours, with their EY-8's (which we paid for back in the '80s). Pre-collapse, the USSR flew spy planes over many countries including the US, and Russia still uses spy planes or regional targets. India overflies Pakistan and China, and also Diego Garcia and US fleet movements in the Indian Ocean. German, France, Britain, South Africa, and Japan overfly regional targets also. Here is a link about the history and current states of spy plane technology and overflights.

[krispos42]

45. China didn't shoot down the Orion spy aircraft

A fighter and the Orion hit in midair, and the Orion crew put down on the nearest dry land they could, which happened to be Chinese. The collision occured over international waters.

I think with recon aircraft the general attitude is "If you don't like it, shoot it down." The U-2 aircraft flew over Russia until it was proven in 1960 that the new Soviet SA-2 'Guideline' surface-to-air missile could reach them. The SR-71 could never be intercepted by either aircraft or missile, even though over 4,000 missiles were shot at them during their operational life.

Interestingly, the Wikipedia article on the incident shows the massive (and ultimately embarassing) cover-up. Basically, the pilot survived and the plane and it's camera film were recovered, but the Russian didn't say that for a few days, letting the US twist itself into a story about NASA weather research planes and pilot oxygen problems. Then the pulled out the pilot and the plane and said "Gotcha!"

Attempts to intercept the plane by Soviet fighters failed due to the U–2’s extreme altitude, but eventually one of the fourteen SA–2 Guideline surface-to-air missiles launched at the plane managed to get close enough. According to Soviet defector Viktor Belenko, a Soviet fighter pursuing Powers was caught and destroyed in the missile salvo.<1> Powers’s aircraft was badly damaged, and crashed near Sverdlovsk, deep inside Soviet territory. Powers was captured after making a parachute landing.

Four days after Powers disappeared, NASA issued a very detailed press release noting that an aircraft had “gone missing” north of Turkey.<2> The press release speculated that the pilot might have fallen unconscious while the autopilot was still engaged, even claiming that “the pilot reported over the emergency frequency that he was experiencing oxygen difficulties.” To bolster this, a U–2 plane was quickly painted in NASA colors and shown to the media.

After hearing this, Soviet premier Nikita Khrushchev announced to the Supreme Soviet, and thus the world, that a “spyplane” had been shot down, whereupon the U.S. issued a statement claiming that it was a “weather research aircraft” which had strayed into Soviet airspace after the pilot had “difficulties with his oxygen equipment” while flying over Turkey. The White House, presuming Powers was dead, gracefully acknowledged that this might be the same plane, but still proclaimed that “there was absolutely no deliberate attempt to violate Soviet airspace and never has been”, and attempted to continue the facade by grounding all U–2 aircraft to check for “oxygen problems”.

On May 7, Khrushchev announced:

“I must tell you a secret. When I made my first report I deliberately did not say that the pilot was alive and well… and now just look how many silly things have said.”

The wreck of Francis Gary Powers’s U–2.Not only was Powers still alive, but his plane was also essentially intact. The Soviets managed to recover the surveillance camera and even developed the photographs. Powers’s survival pack, including 7500 rubles and jewelry for women, was also recovered.

[krispos42]

44. yeah, they can carry 2 of the Hellfire missiles n/t

[laststeamtrain]

14. FARS NEWS AGENCY version of story:link

http://www.farsnews.com/English/newstext.php?nn=8510260294

[SpudStateDem]

19. This Is Big!

It's important to believe every Iranian MP who makes an uncorroborated statement. I only wonder why the Iranian government didn't provide pictures of the downed craft.

[lovuian]

20. Its the Beginning of the Drone War

You knock off my consulate I knock off your Drone

Its a sign of escalation

[Igel]

32. Absolutely.

The mere Iranian claim, devoid of any substantiation and surely not made in a manner indicating anything less than absolute objectivity and impartiality, clearly makes any sort of US denial implausible, if not risible. The claim itself constitutes sufficient justification for the entire US population to submit itself at once to the ICC on charges of wanton genocide against the Iranian people, with no option but to confess en masse to the evil deed.

Now, if the Iranian politician actually had provided some substantiation, that would have been *really* serious, and we'd all be committing seppuku right now.

[Imagevision]

56. Johnson did the same when he said North Vitnamese attacked US. warships

it was a phony claim but it got the nam war rolling!!

[Irreverend IX]

21. What the hell is Bush planning to do?

If he goes to war with Iran, it'll be like a guy planning bankruptcy who buys an RV on credit. He doesn't have enough troops to hold down Iraq, let alone take on a bigger and badder military than Saddam had.

[dipsydoodle]

24. Drones actually have a brainless pilot named

Dimson.

[liberal N proud]

25. What would we do if they were flying over the US?

But this will be built up as an act of war by the warmongers.

[Roland99]

28. They already have flown a drone over the US

[Nihil]

34. ?

When? (Or were you meaning when they sent their President? :-) )

[Roland99]

47. Well, I meant the US (the Pentagon), not Iran

[Eugene]

29. The US and Iran are playing chicken.

One side flies its spy planes over the other side's territory.
The other side tries to shoot it down. This was business
as usual during the Cold War.

Flying the spy plane over Iranian territory was provocation.
Shooting it down answered that provocation. This is serious
but it is a weak excuse to start a war. This is a crisis
only if the U.S. and Iran want to make a crisis out of it.
If the grown-ups were in charge, some urgent back-channel
diplomacy would be in order.

[lovuian]

38. The problem is that Drones can carry Bombs

they are not so innocent ... its like flying a Bomb over into a country

We never had Drones in the past this is a new escalation technique
to get the other side to get complacent or to keep trigger happy troops hopping

lots of room for mistakes

[pampango]

39. It is a provocation, IF the drone was in Iranian airspace, which

the article does not state. It "was trying to cross the borders. If it was shot down on the other side of the border, then the provocation is on the other foot.

[coalition_unwilling]

64. Or even some "front-channel diplomacy, a la the Iraq Study Group's

recommendations.

[itsmesgd]

37. Now, can I take off my tin foil hat when I discuss the probability of a backdoor strike..

leading to an all out war in Iran, possibly to include us launching weapons of mass destruction?

[Warren Stupidity]

51. NONONONONONONONONO

We dont want to hear that bad news. You put that hat back on and STFU.

Quick somebody trot out ahmadenijadimabujahidilah to make an offensive statement!

[CRH]

40. In the days of Satellites ...

... that can read a license plate from 22,000 miles in space, and overfly any given country on earth several times a day if so directed, the supposed provocative nature of this incident might be more rhetorical, than real.

[daleo]

42. Satellites aren't as maneuverable as drones

And satellites don't fire Hellfire missiles.

Space is international, the airspace above a country is not.

[krispos42]

46. Satellites are predictable

It is common practice to hide things several minutes before a satellite appears above the horizon. Satellites are also over an area for only a few minutes before they are over the horizon again. And they cannot respond quickly to a new location.

Drones can perform constant monitoring for the better part of a day of a particular area, feeding live intelligence to the tactical commander on the ground.

The question here is "What was occuring on the ground that required constant monitoring and the feeding of live intelligence to the tactical commander on the ground?"

[Megahurtz]

48. I can't say that I blame them. n/t

[Jeffersons Ghost]

50. K&R here we go... the damn fools are really going to do it this time...

[Imagevision]

54. Next, the CIA will report on a US. aircraft being shot down, the carrier groups aren't

there for exercise, Bush will use President Johnson's Gulf Of Tonkin Incident scenario to start war with Iran.

"American Planes Hit North Vietnam After Second Attack on Our Destroyers; Move Taken to Halt New Aggression", announced a Washington Post headline on Aug. 5, 1964.

That same day, the front page of the New York Times reported: "President Johnson has ordered retaliatory action against gunboats and 'certain supporting facilities in North Vietnam' after renewed attacks against American destroyers in the Gulf of Tonkin."

But there was no "second attack" by North Vietnam — no "renewed attacks against American destroyers." By reporting official claims as absolute truths, American journalism opened the floodgates for the bloody Vietnam War.
(Substitute Iran War)
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2261

[bklyncowgirl]

58. Next time they'll shoot down a pilot and the war drums will beat 'till our heads ache.

This is what Bush wants. Not content with making a hash out of two wars he believes that three is the charm that will turn him into a hero--and the resulting chaos will be good for his friends in the oil business too.

[coalition_unwilling]

65. Yeah, but this time the American people have lost their lust

for war. The bloodlust has evaporated in the sands of and around Fallujah.

[Mudoria]

61. Wow.. some little known lawmaker makes a statement about

which he has no details or seemingly any other credible information. That has to be true because it was on the Internet. Some kid probably had his RC plane shot down :rofl: