AP: Troops Died After, Not In, Sneak Attack (Karbala)

[Eugene]

Troops Died After, Not In, Sneak Attack
APNewsbreak: New information says U.S. soldiers were abducted
from scene of sneak attack

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Jan. 26, 2007
By STEVEN R. HURST and QASSIM ABDUL-ZHARA Associated Press Writers

(AP) Contrary to U.S. military statements, four U.S. soldiers did not die repelling
a sneak attack at the governor's office in the Shiite holy city of Karbala last week.
New information obtained by The Associated Press shows they were abducted and
found dead or dying as far as 25 miles away.

The brazen assault 50 miles south of Baghdad was launched Jan. 20 by a group
of nine to 12 militants. They traveled in black GMC Suburban vehicles _ the type
used by U.S. government convoys, had American weapons, wore new U.S. military
combat fatigues and spoke English.

In a written statement, the U.S. command reported at the time that five soldiers
were killed while "repelling the attack." Two senior U.S. military officials
as well as Iraqi officials now say three of them were found dead and one mortally
wounded in locations as far as 25 miles east of the governor's office.

The U.S. officials said they could not be sure if the soldiers were killed as the
attackers drove them to the place where they abandoned the Suburbans or
afterward. Iraqi officials said the men were killed just before the vehicles were
abandoned.

-snip-

Full article: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/26/ap/world/mainD8MT1R2G0.shtml

[Barrett808]

1. "U.S. soldiers were abducted"

Clusterfuck.

[Benhurst]

2. Truth will out. NT

[partylessinOhio]

3. Dead is dead. OUT OF IRAQ and the MIDDLE EAST now!

[lyonn]

16. I'm thinking more of torture before dead. Ugh n/t

[partylessinOhio]

19. You are probably right of course. More reason that we need to get our troops

out of there. We already have enough dead and wounded.

Bush is evil and should be impeached.

[saigon68]

4. Pile them High

[Raydawg1234]

12. what does that mean? are you delighting in the deaths of our troops?

[JoFerret]

13. Of course he is not

the tone is a commentary on the reckless disregard that bushco shows to the issue of life and the value of human lives.

[LittleWoman]

45. This brings to mind a poem by Carl Sandburg

Grass

PILE the bodies high at Austerlitz and Waterloo,
Shovel them under and let me work--
I am the grass; I cover all.

And pile them high at Gettysburg
And pile them high at Ypres and Verdun.
Shovel them under and let me work.
Two years, ten years, and passengers ask the conductor:
What place is this?
Where are we now?

I am the grass.
Let me work.

A poem by Sandburg is also the source of the phrase "what if they gave a war and nobody came?"

[Amonester]

5. What's going on there? MI5? Blackwater? We've seen previous

'secret ops' such as this before, didn't we?
British SAS terrarist bombing in Basra (intended staged car bombing): http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2005/270905strategyoftension.htm

"The brazen assault 50 miles south of Baghdad was launched Jan. 20 by a group of nine to 12 militants. They traveled in black GMC Suburban vehicles _ the type used by U.S. government convoys, had American weapons, wore new U.S. military combat fatigues and spoke English."

bu$hitbLiar want total chao$ to profit XonMobil :grr:

[stillcool]

9. It's getting so that any

rationale is plausible...except those put out by the government....especially considering..

Census Counts 100,000 Contractors In Iraq
Civilian Number, Duties Are Issues
By Renae Merle
Washington Post
December 5, 2006

There are about 100,000 government contractors operating in Iraq, not counting subcontractors, a total that is approaching the size of the U.S. military force there, according to the military's first census of the growing population of civilians operating in the battlefield.

The survey finding, which includes Americans, Iraqis and third-party nationals hired by companies operating under U.S. government contracts, is significantly higher and wider in scope than the Pentagon's only previous estimate, which said there were 25,000 security contractors in the country.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Official numbers are difficult to find, said Deborah D. Avant, author of the 2005 book "The Market for Force: The Consequences of Privatizing Security," but an estimated 9,200 contractors deployed during the Gulf War, a far shorter conflict without reconstruction projects. "This is the largest deployment of U.S. contractors in a military operation," said Avant, an associate professor at George Washington University.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kellogg, Brown and Root, one of the largest contractors in Iraq, said it does not delineate its workforce by country but that it has more than 50,000 employees and subcontractors working in Iraq, Afghanistan and Kuwait. MPRI, a unit of L-3 Communications, has about 500 employees working on 12 contracts, including providing mentors to the Iraqi Defense Ministry for strategic planning, budgeting and establishing its public affairs office. Titan, another L-3 division, has 6,500 linguists in the country.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In June, government agencies were asked to provide data about contractors working for them in Iraq, including their nationality, a description of their work and locations where they were working. The information was provided by more than a dozen entities within the Pentagon and a dozen outside agencies, including the departments of State and Interior, Wittkoff said. The count increased about 15 percent from about 87,000 since Central Command began keeping a tally this summer, she said, though the increase may reflect ongoing data collection efforts. The census will be updated quarterly, Wittkoff said
----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/contract/2006/1205census.htm

[Carni]

47. According to what I read one of them was blond--WTF??

It was in my local paper this morning (sorry no link)

I would like to know what the guys who were killed knew.

[antiimperialist]

6. Take that Michelle Malkin

The AP doing what the media is supposed to do: investigative reporting, while the Pentagon lies, lies and lies.

[mtnester]

7. If you did not believe in propaganda before

you should now.

Welcome to the Ministry of Truth, Ministry's Records Department.

And, for the damn record, it is sick and preposterous that our government tried to LIE about how someone's son/daughter/brother/father/husband/friend was killed. Did they not learn with Pat Tillman? (Rhetorical, no need to answer)

OK, now I go outside to have a deep cleansing breath.

[me b zola]

8. And if we think that this is ugly...

...with the increase in building to building raids (something the neocons said that our troops would never be doing in Iraq), we will see more traps layed and more of our GIs "abducted".

STOP THIS MADDNESS NOW

BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW

[Nimrod2005]

10. Some wondered if was American on American crime/attack?

[underpants]

14. I don't mean this as a joke but this sounds like a Milo Minderbinder operation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo_Minderbinder

[Nimrod2005]

15. Yup, something like that....nt

[daleo]

21. In theory merc's work for money

And they don't care what side they are on. It makes you think.

[oasis]

11. Let's have congressional hearings on the matter and get to the truth. (eom)

[anotherdrew]

17. I hope they've already arrested the governor who's office this happened at...

he must have tipped them off that a meeting was going to happen.

[against all enemies]

18. Did they hold this till after the State of the Union address?

[Turbineguy]

20. They must have forgotten

the "Allah the Merciful and Compasionate" bit.

Raising the level of brutality or perhaps responding to it.

[roamer65]

22. How long before this is blamed on IRAN?

[Eugene]

24. As soon as it happened?

Statements to the press have said "militia" from the beginning strongly implicating
some unidentified Shi'ite faction. Iran is blamed by association, since it is now
considered the root of all evil in the Iraq, especially when Shi'ites are involved.

[roody]

23. Troops home now.

[Xipe Totec]

25. AP: 4 troops abducted, killed in Iraq attack

BAGHDAD, Iraq - In perhaps the boldest and most sophisticated attack in four years of warfare, gunmen speaking English, wearing U.S. military uniforms and carrying American weapons abducted four U.S. soldiers last week at the provincial headquarters in the Shiite holy city of Karbala and then shot them to death.

The U.S. military confirmed a report earlier Friday by The Associated Press that three of the soldiers were dead and one was mortally wounded with a gunshot to the head when they were found in a neighboring province, about 25 miles from the compound where they were captured. A fifth soldier was killed in the initial attack on the compound.

The new account contradicted a U.S. military statement on Jan. 20, the day of the raid on an Iraqi governor's office, that five soldiers were killed "repelling" the attack.

The security breakdown and the dramatic kidnapping and murder of four soldiers leaked out just as President Bush faces stiffening congressional opposition over his plan to flood Baghdad and surrounding regions with 21,500 more American troops. Two of Congress's most vocal war critics, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Rep. John Murtha, were in the Iraqi capital as the news broke.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070127/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_sneak_attack_19

Pay very close attention to this article. Notice that the military deliberately concealed information from the American public about the true nature of this incident, and that the news finally broke....





After the close of the news cycle for Friday, too late to generate buzz in the media....






They sat on this story for SIX DAYS!!!!

[TheCowsCameHome]

26. And the Iraqi's just waved them thru - great allies, eh?

[Xipe Totec]

27. Camouflage, SUV, English. Ergo, Americans

Besides, one of them was blond (maybe).

What more proof do you need? :sarcasm:

[TheCowsCameHome]

28. Hey, a smile and a wave is good enough for any security force, right?

[atreides1]

37. Of Course they did

Remember it was General Paetraeus who was responsible for their training, and he did a great job.

Makes you wonder how many more troops are coming home in boddy bags, courtesy of the good general?

[24HRrnr]

29. Sounds like a complete violation of the Geneva Accords

What are they trying to do, duplicate Gitmo

[Xipe Totec]

31. I'm not quite sure where you're going

I'd ordinarily say welcome to DU, but I see you've been with us for quite a long time.

So welcome to posting on DU, anyways :hi:

[Bonobo]

33. Big difference. These are Iraqis on their own soil, fighting invaders.

[ohtransplant]

30. I saw this on the NBC nightly news.

and wonder why it's not the headline story everywhere...

This stuff is too big to stay buried in the news Friday dump. This is big.

I predict this story will become part of the surge debate.

No other Rs???

[Xipe Totec]

32. The story is getting buried by the misleading caption

but the LBN rules require an exact quote of the headline.

I think most readers are seeing it as just another four dead soldiers story, when the real story is that the military concealed the information during the SOTU address.

That is just evil.

[TomInTib]

34. This thing smelled so bad when it first surfaced.

At the time, I told my Sweetheart that the bad guys were SO from Saddam's Republican Guard who were better at it than are our guys.

Those guys have been underground and polishing their act for almost 4 years, now.

I would bet that this will be the first of far too many incidences such as this.

[spindrifter]

35. Gates would have been

responsible for sitting on this--not General Peaches.

[Xipe Totec]

36. True, but they do want their shiny new Hero

to pull chimpie's chestnuts out of the fire.

And having security infiltrated, American soldiers abducted and murdered, all in the middle of "the surge"

would've been... well,... embarrassing during the confirmation hearings.

[ShortnFiery]

38. Oh so that's why The Military PA mouthpieces initially LIED to us.

I guess we should be grateful that they didn't completely bury the TRUE story, like they almost were successful re: Tillman. :shrug: :nuke:

[951-Riverside]

39. Probably Iraqi Army members

anyway I have to give to the Iraqis they are very clever/cunning people.

[CoffeeCat]

40. They sat on this b/c of the State of the Union....

They did not want this on the minds of the American public,
while Junior was looking wistful into the camera and discussing
the glorious progress that we've made.

Can you imagine? This horrid news about our soldiers being released--
and then Junior asking for more time?

This really stinks because it means that the media happily bends to the
will of this administration. Do they not realize how perverse and
unAmerican that is?

[soup]

44. The way the headline reads at Yahoo, I thought it was a new attack.

4 troops abducted, killed in Iraq attack
By STEVEN R. HURST and QASSIM ABDUL-ZAHRA, Associated Press Writers
1 hour, 41 minutes ago

>snip<
The Defense Department has released the names of troops killed Jan. 20 but clearly identified only one as being killed because of the sneak attack.

Capt. Brian S. Freeman, 31, of Temecula, Calif., "died of wounds suffered when his meeting area came under attack by mortar and small arms fire." Freeman was assigned to the 412th Civil Affairs Battalion, Whitehall, Ohio.

The only other troops killed that day in that region of Iraq were four Army soldiers said to have been "ambushed while conducting dismounted operations" in Karbala.

The four were identified as 1st Lt. Jacob N. Fritz, 25, of Verdon, Neb.; Spc. Johnathan B. Chism, 22, of Prairieville, La.; Pfc. Shawn P. Falter, 25, of Homer, N.Y., and Pvt. Johnathon M. Millican, 20, of Trafford, Ala. All were with the 2nd Battalion, 377th Parachute Field Artillery Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division, of Fort Richardson, Alaska.
from article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070127/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_sneak_attack

6 days. Liars protecting Liars.

Not that I expect anything even remotely resembling the truth anymore, but this makes me ill.

[IndianaGreen]

41. The same military that claimed Jessica Lynch fought off several Iraqi soldiers

and that is now claiming that there are Iranians operating inside Iraq, lied about the fate of these soldiers.

The burden of proof lies on the Pentagon.

[Tatiana]

59. Ding Ding Ding!!!!!

We really can't trust anything out of the Pentagon (or Defense). Rumsfeld is NOT gone; they are keeping him around under the guise of some sort of "transition."

We have very few true reporters and journalists over in Iraq telling us what is going on. The most we've received from the corporate media is reporters "in bed" with the military (Judas Miller, anyone?).

[Eugene]

42. BBC: US army describes Iraq abductions

Last Updated: Saturday, 27 January 2007, 00:58 GMT

US army describes Iraq abductions
by Mike Wooldridge
BBC News, Baghdad

The US military in Iraq has given new details of an attack last week in which
five US soldiers were killed.

Four of them were abducted by militants posing as an American security team.

They travelled in the kind of vehicles often used for US government convoys,
Wore US-style uniforms and carried US-style weapons.

-snip-

According to the new account, US military officers were attending a meeting
in the compound when the convoy of at least five sport utility vehicles
impersonating Americans entered and killed one US soldier.

-snip-

Full article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6304645.stm

[maddezmom]

43. it was mentioned here about the uniforms

Military: Four held in sneak attack on U.S. in Iraq
://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2701249

[spanone]

46. That pesky truth keeps getting in the way, dammit.

[Az_lefty]

48. "militants posing as an American security team."

the militants were posing as BLACKWATER mercenaries. I guess we need to get the fu@king merc's out of Iraq.

[sanskritwarrior]

49. Chechens are blond

Circassians are blond, some Armenian Iraqis are blond, Some holdover Syrians are blond. All thos groups speak Arabic and many would speak english. My money is on Chechens, this wouldn't be the first time we had 10-20 Chechens operating in Iraq.

[PassingFair]

52. Blackwater Security personnel are blond.

Can't have certain information being made public in
"war time" can we?

[sanskritwarrior]

53. Do you have evidence it was blackwater?

There is a history of Chechens in Iraq, as far as I know in my time in Iraq I never saw a Blackwater guy kill an American

[mekrob]

54. Chechens don't speak Arabic

and few are blond, the same with other ethnic groups in the region.

And we'd never think that Americans were capable of Abu Graib, but that didn't stop the soldiers there from committing those actions. Mercs will do anything for money. Just because their individual actions aren't brought up, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Any info on the guns? "American guns" doesn't mean jack-shit. Everybody has American guns, including Iran and Hezbollah. Whether or not they are weapons that are much harder to get their hands on is another question though. What makes me really suspicious is the vehicles. You don't just get a brand new Suburban in the middle of Iraq if you're a Chechen or Syrian. Not even a very well connected one. It would be far too easy to tract those vehicles if you're a bad guy.

[sanskritwarrior]

55. You are incorrect

I'm half indian ( Subcontinent type) and 1/4 armenian, and 1/4 Greek.......I have dark blonde hair and blue eyes........I look like my very light skinned Indian grandfather.......Hell man there are blond blue eyed Iraqis I've seen them........

As for the arabic

http://jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2369881

8000 Chechens in Jordan........

some chechens do speak Arabic. I'm not looking for an argument, but the 2 competeing theories are;

A group of blackwater mercenaries got through security kidnapped 4 Americans made off through the Iraqi countryside with them, driving 25 miles to another province just to shoot them all in the head and then melt away??

Or a group of (someone) Arabs, chechens, Iranian circassians, etc.... get through security kidnap four americans drive them away, kill them and then melt into the populace??

I've been to Iraq and I've commented before on blackwater (I worked with them as they were our convoy escorts) You are giving them far far too much ability to execute this kind of operation. This smacks of chechen special ops. I could be wrong, I fully admit that, I also could be right. I do know this, trying to paint this as a blackwater op is laughable on the surface, most blackwater guys are fat and out of shape, they are not the same thing as the PSD's. PSD's are in shape and look military, most blackwater guys are older as well and would look out of place.

Uniforms? Can be ordered off the internet.......Black suburbans? Can be bought in Kurdistan as the Kurds import American vehicles. I can talk about this more later, it's time to go see a movie........

[PassingFair]

56. Do you have evidence it was Chechens?

We are all speculating here.

There have been suspicious
"suicides" of soldiers who
knew more than it was prudent
to know.

I don't put ANYTHING past the
thugs that got us into this mess.

[sanskritwarrior]

57. I'm a soldier

how does one know too much? I would like to hear this story as I haven't heard it before.......

As for chechens, no I have no proof, just like there is no proof the Mehdi army did it, nor blackwater..... I'm just going with an Occams razor argument. There are 8000 chechens in Jordan, they speak arabic, some chechens have blond hair, american guns and uniforms can be bought at a souk.......

It's just comical to see people paint blackwater as this nefarious organization that could pull this off. The reality for those of us who have worked with them is that they are a bunch of bumbling Inspector Clouseau's with guns......They aren't a black army that can stage a false flag operation.......

[PassingFair]

58. I think that Mehdi Army or Chechen Separatists...

would have held the soldiers for ransom, or
tortured them for effect.

To stage such a daring raid, just to shoot
them in the head and abandon the vehicles?

WTF?

I'd be interested in knowing what was special
about the dead soldiers.

[sanskritwarrior]

61. Nothing was special about them

they were 4 guys from an artillery battalion.

Why would Chechens hold them hostage, they sure don't do that to most Russians. Ditto the Mehdi army, there were several times back in 2004 when the Mehdi army killed Americans that got sepearated from their units. This happened most especially in Najaf in the city sized cemetery.

As for the purpose of the raid, how demoralizing is it to soldiers, that some bad guys get trough security took some hostages and then got out with them. Half of war is psychological, now most soldiers will be lookin twice at every iraqi, every American will have their fingers a little tighter on the triggers when Iraqis are around......That my friend is the whole point of an operation like this........

[PassingFair]

63. Huh?

"now most soldiers will be lookin twice at every iraqi, every American will have their fingers a little tighter on the triggers when Iraqis are around"

Don't you think this is ALREADY the case?

THESE guys were disguised as AMERICANS, from these
sketchy accounts, NOT Iraqis.

[sanskritwarrior]

64. No

I didn't look twice at most Iraqis as in battle they are actually more aggressive than we are. They charge forward under fire recklessly, they charge forward to close with the enemy where we would saturate an area with firepower. I have personally had an Iraqi Army soldier (a shiite) at my back, we were securing an house the IA was providing cover fire, I never once doubted that he would attack me. The screening process is better than you think. Obviously bad apples get through, but in the heat of battle if someone is shooting at you, you shoot where everyone else on your team is shooting. You don't take the opportunity to take out the old sarge just because he is an American. Hell man, we had a Mehdi army guy that got busted and until we caught him he was one of the best soldiers in the IA company attached to us. He killed Mehdi army guys and Sunnis and God knows who else.........

So no most Americans wouldn't look twice before this.

And it doesn't matter who they were disguised as. You would be hard pressed to find many soldiers that think this is Blackwater. Again Blackwater is a bunch of amateurs with itchy trigger fingers, not black ops specialists. So no American soldiers will be looking twice at Iraqis, not Americans......

[ama]

50. i wonder why they took a computer

from the story at the link ¨The daring commando team also took an unclassified U.S. computer with them¨

[sanskritwarrior]

65. Intelligence value

Again this is basic military common sense. In a raid you take some guys and you take a laptop or something else that might contain information. If you are going to get fingered you dump the meat and keep the hardware. More and more this is starting to look like a message attack. I don't know who, but someone is stepping into the ring to be a player......

[oblivious]

51. blackanthem.com update - more details

Update to Initial Findings from Karbala
By Multi-National Corps - Iraq PAO
Jan 27, 2007 - 4:42:12

Militant attack used deception, U.S. Army type uniforms

Blackanthem Military News, BAGHDAD, Iraq
...Two Soldiers were found handcuffed together in the back of one of the SUVs. Both had suffered gunshot wounds and were dead. A third Soldier was found shot and dead on the ground. Nearby, the fourth Soldier was still alive, despite a gunshot wound to the head. The Iraqi police rushed the severely wounded Soldier to a nearby hospital, but the Soldier died enroute.

"The precision of the attack, the equipment used and the possible use of explosives to destroy the military vehicles in the compound suggests that the attack was well rehearsed prior to execution," said Lt. Col. Scott Bleichwehl, spokesman for Multi-National Division-Baghdad.

"The attackers went straight to where Americans were located in the provincial government facility, by-passing the Iraqi police in the compound," said Bleichwehl. "We are looking at all the evidence to determine who or what was responsible for the breakdown in security at the compound and the perpetration of the assault."
http://www.blackanthem.com/News/U_S_Military_19/Update_to_Initial_Findings_from_Karbala3877.shtml

[reprobate]

60. Unlike our Pretzeldent, some of the insurgents must have studied history.

The German army mounted an operation just like this in WWII, particularly at the Bulge. They sent hand picked troops to school to learn English and the American culture. Then they dressed them in American uniforms and vehicles and sent them behind the lines. I don't know how effective they were in killing Americans, but they WERE effective in causing suspicion in the troops. You didn't know whose side anyone was on unless you knew them personally.

This history is not a secret. You'd think that our leaders would come up with some strategy to counter this. Or did they just not even consider infiltrators?

[sanskritwarrior]

62. That's the whole point

there so many things to keep track of in a war, protocols to prevent this are not put in place until it happens. The military by its nature is a reactive not a proactive force. You cannot be proactive against a dynamic evolving enemy. You must counter his moves as he makes them. The insurgents do the same thing which is why they have switched to mostly IED's against superior armed and trained Americans forces and gangland style attacks against other Iraqis. They cannot outgun us, so they use our reliance on vehicles against us with IED's. The Iraqis cannot outgun them so they don't mind getting in firefights with them.......