Democrats Seek Bush Support On Citizenship For Illegal Immigrants

[Purveyor]

WASHINGTON, Mar 1 (AP): Democrats want President George W. Bush's assurances that he will deliver the votes of Republican lawmakers for putting illegal immigrants on a path to citizenship and creating a guest worker programme.

The Senate, with Bush's backing, passed a bill last year that did both, but it wilted into campaign fodder for November's congressional elections after Republicans in the House of Representatives staged hearings around the country to oppose it.

"Without the administration's earnest engagement on this issue, our efforts are likely to suffer the same fate they did last year," Senate Judiciary Chairman Patrick Leahy, a Democrat, said at a hearing he called to weigh the administration's support. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff and Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez told the committee that Bush is committed to seeing a sweeping immigration bill become law, although they were careful not to wade too much into details.

Supporters of allowing some of the estimated 11 million to 12 million illegal immigrants to remain in the United States are expected to unveil an immigration bill as early as next week. Private meetings to draft the legislation have been going on for months involving Democratic Sen. Edward M. Kennedy and Republican Sen. John McCain and Reps. Luis Gutierrez, a Democrat, and Republican Jeff Flake.

---END OF EXCERPT---

http://www.financialexpress-bd.com/index3.asp?cnd=3/2/2007§ion_id=26&newsid=54081&spcl=no

[spartan61]

1. Color me stupid, but why do the Democrats want amnesty

for the illegals? Most Americans are against this. This time I think the Repukes have it right.

[SahaleArm]

2. Have any polling data to back up your assertion? *nt*

[w4rma]

5. Use Google, there is massive polling data backing up the fact that Americans don't want this. (nt)

[SahaleArm]

6. The Minutemen don't want this, Lou Dobbs doesn't want this, who else? *nt*

[brentspeak]

8. Try, many of the residents of Arizona, Texas, and California

[piedmont]

10. I certainly don't. nt

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bentcorner]

46. Not only do I not want it, I've never met anyone that did. *nt*

[depakid]

59. Then you must not get around much

nor have any in depth understanding of immigration issues.

[ProudDad]

97. Have you checked out the folks

who cook your food in restaurants, trim your hedges or put up your sheetrock?

But, ok, you are entitled to your opinion.

Just ask your next waiter to find out if there are any "wetbacks" in the kitchen... (Don't piss off the chef)

[Megahurtz]

109. Yeah, it used to be that all Restaurant Workers were

mostly Teenage Kids (Citizens) or younger people. Now most of them are not able to get these jobs. Hmm....I wonder why is that? :sarcasm:

[Joanne98]

72. I DON'T!

[MGD]

108. I definitely don't want this.

[SahaleArm]

9. Completely Untrue - 65% support giving legality to illegal immigrants

From http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm">Polling Report

Quinnipiac University Poll. Nov. 13-19, 2006. N=1,623 registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 2.4 (for all adults).

"Do you support or oppose creation of a guest worker program that would allow illegal immigrants to register for temporary legal status and employment?"

Support Oppose Unsure
% % %
ALL adults 65 32 3
Republicans 63 34 3
Democrats 67 30 4
Independents 66 31 4

"Currently illegal immigrants cannot apply for citizenship. If the law were changed to allow illegal immigrants to register into a guest worker program, should that program offer them the ability to work toward citizenship over a period of several years?"

Yes No Unsure
% % %
11/13-19/06 69 27 4

[w4rma]

29. The vast majority of Americans do not support this bill. The public does not support increasing caps

on guest workers. They strongly support *reducing* caps on guest workers in every poll. This bill increases them and worse. It would be absolutely stupid to support this bill based on that poorly worded poll.

I'll explain that poll for you:
People believe that we should have a guest worker program that illegals can (if they get through all the filters) get into, but people believe that the guest worker program should be smaller than it is now.

[SahaleArm]

34. Show me a poll (or some empirical data) to support your side of the argument.

Interpretations aside, I've already disproved the prior statement with *real* polling data.

[dkofos]

76. Or so you think

All that poll showed is that under the right conditions they would allow illegals to become citizens

[Bridget Burke]

39. You can use Google to find out that UFO's are real.

If that's what you're looking for.

[BadGimp]

50. and Who Shot JR?

eom

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

104. Kristin Shepard?

:D

[Megahurtz]

4. I know that if the Lot of Us

went to another Country En Masse to get Amnesty, we would only get kicked out!

Doesn't seem fair doesn't it? :wtf:

[Triana]

14. I Agree with Spartan61 (n/t)

[OKthatsIT]

62. I agree with Spartan61, too.

Blanket amnesty is unfair to everyone else who follows immigration laws.

The Dems want their votes...simple.

HOWEVER, I do not want to see families torn apart, abruptly and without representation, either. Where are the social agencies to determine which families have been well established and law abiding? We need some humanistic approaches...not Gestapo. No families with children should be in camps.

I don't have the answers...However, I do feel the US should be putting pressure on Mexico's Government to include policies which are helping the lower classes to stay home. NAFTA is a joke...but the North American Union will just be more slave labor, not family health and welfare.

[VegasWolf]

22. I agree!! We've lost enough jobs already. nt

[OhioChick]

23. Yes, we sure have. n/t

[WorldResident]

36. Maybe because we can't find one Osama Bin laden, much less 12 million illegal aliens

n/t

[ProudDad]

96. Nope

they've got it wrong:

"November 21, 2006 - Let Illegal Immigrants Become Citizens, U.S. Voters Tell Quinnipiac University National Poll; But Do More To Tighten The Borders, Voters Say

"By a 69 - 27 percent margin, American voters say illegal immigrants should be allowed into a guest worker program with the ability to work toward citizenship over a period of several years, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today."

This poll was NOT commissioned by an anti-immigration outfit..

[AzDar]

3. They manage to get NOTHING done towards resolving the clusterfuck

in Iraq, yet seemingly find a way to grant amnesty to criminals.
This is a kick in the teeth to both the troops and to all those who bother to enter the country LEGALLY.
Whose Party is this???

[brentspeak]

7. Depends on exactly how many of the 11-12 million illegals would be granted amnesty

Anything more than 50% (and even that is a huge number) and people here will be understandably PO'd. I'd say, make it no more than 25%, and that's it.

[sadiesworld]

11. democrat/guest worker program...

should be an oxymoron. The workers of this country have no representation.

[Doremus]

26. Thank you. That is my take on it also.

We don't have enough decent jobs for American citizens. We can't very well play host to outsiders until we are on stronger financial footing ourselves.

If the Dems won't represent labor, WTF do we need them for?

This really burns me up.

[primavera]

112. Actually, most labor unions support this

AFLCIO in particular has been vigorous in their advocacy of immigration reform that includes a guest worker program and earned legalization. They support it because they recognize that immigrants participating in the legal economy can be regulated; undergound sweatshops cannot be regulated. Illegal workers working in black market sweatshops have a far more detrimental impact upon wages and working conditions than do legal workers working in the full light of day, under the watchful eye of regulatory agencies. But you're not going to coax anyone out of the black market economy if all you have to offer them is a nice, long, cozy stretch in a federal prison cell.

[scavenger]

12. Another look

Who gives a rats ass as to what the democrats or republicans think? I have my own principles and morel values.

No one owns the world and the way I see it anyone has the right to live where they want to live, borders or no borders....Insects do it, other animals do it so why not people? Respect me and I'll do the same in return no matter you are or where you are from.

Who in this forum has earned the right to live here that excludes anyone else from another part of the earth to live here as well? Being born here was just luck, it was nothing you earned.

[Critters2]

13. If you think other animals don't set territorial boundaries,

you need to watch a few more episodes of "Meerkat Manor".

[scavenger]

15. Look again

Yes they do , but they still migrate. So what morel right do you have to condemn people for doing the same thing?

What did you do to earn your right to live here?

[Critters2]

19. I inherited my right to be here from my ancestors,

who earned it by coming legally, passing health exams, having sponsors, etc.

Unchecked immigration will lower wages in the country into which the immigrants come, and draining motivated workers from the country of origin. The best thing is to build healthy economies on both ends of the relationship.

[scavenger]

21. Why hide behind your ancestors ?

So what gave your ancestors the moral right to live here that would exclude anyone else from living here?
Can you trace your family tree to the point that give you that inherited that moral right? Even if you can, its nothing that you have earned. You would just being leaning on others to justifying your living here with no justifications on your behalf in earning that right.

[OKthatsIT]

66. Oh boy...who pays you? How much are you worth?

I've been wondering how much these operatives are getting to infiltrate our message boards...

They never answer me...they just disappear.

[Critters2]

74. I've been here for over two years.

Hardly an infiltrator. In fact, it's against the rules to make such an accusation.

I'm opposed to illegal immigration because it drives down wages, and makes the workers' hom nations NOt have to improve the lot of their citizens. These are progressive values, whether you agree with them or not.

[dkofos]

78. I am 1/4 Native American can you say the same

[Critters2]

87. I'm only 1/8

Menominee. Still, that makes me legally allowed to claim membership.

[Bridget Burke]

41. My grandparents came over from East Galway.

And they only had to pass health exams to get into the country. They had no "sponsors." They didn't need immigration lawyers. (Did you know citizenship is becoming more expensive?)

Set up immigration stations for health checks & registration. Let in workers who have legal status, whether or not they stay to become citizens. Let them work with Unions to improve the lot of all workers. Without fear of imminent deportation, Mexicans (& others, although I know you only mean Mexicans) have a long history of labor activism.

[OKthatsIT]

64. I am for more scrutiny, not blanket amnesty.

And you and your family would definitely stay.

I don't believe in a generic approach...each family has a story.

We need to focus on the Mexican Govt's distribution of wealth and the disenfranchised voter. OY VEY.

We, THE PEOPLE, need to be HEARD. The US People want what is best to secure that right. What is happening to the US is a dismantling of our Constitution and Rights. Homongenizing the US and Mexican Govts will only HARM US ALL. Because they are MAFIA GOVTs who want their own PARLIAMENT.

This is happening all over the world.

Our borders allow US to hold on to the little democracy we have left...now is not the time to dismantle the only thing we have left that can give US a chance to take back our country from these Gansters. How can the US help the Mexican People if we have no rights, or laws, ourselves?

[ProudDad]

98. If you look back far enough

most of your ancestors were "illegals".

My grandfather was...

"Illegals" built this country...

[Megahurtz]

110. Bullshit. n/t

[primavera]

113. No, it's called historical fact

Perhaps you should read some sometime.

[Megahurtz]

116. My Ancestors were Not Illegals. They Immigrated Legally.

And most other people's Ancestors were not illegal as well.

I say Bullshit.

[razors edge]

20. Do you have any money that may go to your children

when you die?

Are you OK with someone taking what you worked for and allowing someone else who broke the law to have it instead of your children.

We are not talking about the right to eat, breath and crap were ever you wander to like some elk or bear with no vested interest.

My SS is paid to take care of those who paid to take care of their's, so the right wing spin of then taking SS don't really wash. But My parents and theirs before them paid the taxes that built this country's infrastructure, secured it with their blood, and educated the children to whom they would choose to pass on the investment.

I don't think it is asking too much to have others respect that sacrifice by acknowledging the right of those who made the sacrifice to set up their own rules and rate of allowing others to join this struggle.

America has been a safety valve for bad leadership in Mexico for too long.

Force the Mexican government to pay for the cost of caring for their own here in America and see how fast they close the border.

[Bridget Burke]

40. Hey, why build a fence!

Just send the Minutemen down there to "mark" our territory!

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. I rather fancy your kitchen. Move over. n/t

[ziggy_luv]

16. lets have a guest worker senate...

and see how far that goes

[scavenger]

18. We have that already with Joe in a sort of around about way.

[ziggy_luv]

17. yes so we dont even have to pay benefits

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. This is a losing issue - and a wrong issue - for us.

Democrats are supposed to be the party of workers - the ones that can vote. I don't really care what polling indicates, our economy cannot accomodate unregulated immigration.

[Doremus]

27. Agreed. The middle class is strained to the breaking point.

Unchecked immigration will be its death knell.

Sadly, I think that's the point. :(

[gravity]

43. I agree but what should be done?

What do think we should do with all the illegal immigrants already living in America? Kick them out?

Immigration is a tough issue for me, while illegal immigration does lower wages for American workers, at the same time I don't blame people jumping the border so that they can have a better life.

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. Kick them out? Yes.

They are uninvited and here without the permission of those to whom the country belongs.

If their kids are born here, they are citizens and entitled to the protections of citizenship. Their parents are not.

The alternative, for a lawbreaker, is imprisonment or a fine. Being escorted back home isn't *that* strict of a sentence.

Is it their fault that they're here? Somewhat.

[ecstatic]

52. When it comes to poverty and labor issues, many on DU don't seem to get it

I believe in helping as many people as we can but I also believe in taking care of priorities. Without priorities, a country cannot exist for long.

[donkeyotay]

65. Lou Dobbs has 2 more years to hammer this issue

His concern for the middle class is touching, but the anger he's fanning is real and spans left and right, as evidenced on this liberal board. This smacks of Rove, and I think this issue is going to hurt the Democrats in 2008, because it completely negates the image of the Democrats being for the people while the Republicans are for the corporations. It's a complex issue, but they will make it simple.

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. With all due respect, I think it is simple.

It gets complicated by demagogues who use racism as either a bludgeon or a shield.

Immigration should be indexed to a pace at which the economy can support. In the last decade, given birth rates in this country, official immigration should be essentially zero and illicit immigration should be absolutely zero.

It is the corporations who are financing the push for amnesty via quasi-citizenship.

[talkinghead]

28. I was at this hearing

And I don't recall any Democrats asking for amnesty. The only questions involving citizenship were similar to questions that Senator Kennedy asked about why companies that employ H1-B visa holders can petition for their citizenship but a similar path is not available for low-skilled immigrants. Overall, I am optimistic after attending this hearing but there will still be problems such as difficulties between Democrat and Republican Staffers and, as far as Senators on the Judiciary Committee Senators Sessions, Cornyn, Coburn, Feinstein, and Kyl. I almost fell out of my chair when I heard Senator Jeff Sessions say that he agreed with Feinstein. I was very impressed with Gutierrez, Senator Lindsey Graham, and Senator Russ Feingold. The biggest obstacle that the Senators (especially the Republicans) saw was convincing the public that this was not amnesty. Some Republicans practically said they either need a way to convince their constituents that amnesty is not an option, make the bill very strict (which would be detrimental), or they are not going to be able to vote for it.

[w4rma]

30. It doesn't matter. As far as the public is concerned this bill is a pro-amnisty bill.

It's a VERY bad bill, also, even though it's not technically pro-amnisty. Especially now with such high unemployment.

[talkinghead]

31. Actually, unemployment is at 4.6%,

which is pretty low (too low is you believe that artificially low interest rates have resulted in an over heated economy and a disequilibrium between savings and investing). The jobs that immigrants fill are typically jobs that Americans no longer want to do. Secretary Gutierrez did a good job of drilling this into the Senators' heads.

[w4rma]

32. No, the "official"/Enron book cooked unemployment is at 4.6. (nt)

[talkinghead]

33. Well, what are your official calculations?

Sorry dude, but that is a pretty lame conspiracy theory. The BLS has used the same collection methods for years. If I am correct, the last major change was in the Reagan administration. And if you look at the data, there was never a sharp decrease in unemployment. However, I think this is too low, just as I thought it was too low back in the Clinton administration. Typically, anything under 5% is viewed as unsustainable.

[w4rma]

37. You're acting naive. Seemingly little rules have been changed to make the numbers look **much**

lower than they are in reality. Many by executive fiat some by overlooked additions to bills.

And noone can disagree that wages and salaries have been dropping for the regular American.

Many folks who aren't unemployed (or who dropped off the unemployment rolls because they gave up) are underemployed.

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. The current employment to population ratio is 63.3%.

In 1999 it was 67.3%

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/news.release/History/empsit.040299.news

In other words, 6% of the people who were working in 1999 aren't anymore.

These people are no longer considered part of the workforce and not used in the official unemployment rate calculation.

[brentspeak]

61. *cough, cough*....*chuckle*....*shakes head*

All across the country, at job fairs for low-end employment, "jobs that Americans no longer want to do" are being increasingly sought by...Americans. In large numbers, too. That's how desperate former blue collar and even former white collar workers are for a wage. You don't know what you're talking about. And the figure of 4.6% unemployment figure is bogus: it takes into account every part-time, temporary assignment in the nation, including holiday help at the freaking Mall-Wart. The only accurate way of determining the nation's true unemployment rate would be to include only employment data that covers full-time, permanent jobs.

[talkinghead]

63. So...

When it supports one's position it is okay to cite the unemployment data - like during the Clinton years - but now that we are talking about immigration it is a bogus statistic?

Not saying you've done this but I've seen it on this board before.

[EFerrari]

77. Tell you what. You keep your government's filthy hands

out of Latin American elections and all those brown people will -- stay home!

lol

Man. It sure is easy to get you all focused on the wrong problem.

[Joanne98]

70. The unemployment rate is NOT 4.6%!

I thought everybody knew that. They don't count the long-term unemployed. They don't count the people who have given up either. Haven't you ever heard of Enron accounting?

[Taoschick]

73. There's a reason for this

The jobs that immigrants fill are typically jobs that Americans no longer want to do

Americans don't want to do those jobs at an illegal immigrant's pay rate. The laws of supply and demand are in force when it comes to the job market. If you have 12 million people willing to work for less than the "average American" and a government unwilling to control illegal immigration, it drives wages down for everyone. Send the illegals home or prevent them from working and wages will go up because employers will have to pay higher wages to get workers.

[talkinghead]

82. Recent studies have shown...

rather, have reaffirmed that immigrants boost the wages of Americans, which is another benefit they bring to Americans. Immigrants act as complements to American workers, not substitutes. You act as if immigrants are displacing huge amounts of Americans but this is just not true. The only people who are displaced by immigrants are immigrants themselves. Even if immigrants started to leave American you wouldn't see Americans flocking to these jobs. Many of the unemployed would rather stay unemployed than work in these jobs.

[brentspeak]

100. "Recent studies"

Where, and from whom?

[talkinghead]

102. There are three studies

to which I am referring. Two were just released this year and one was released in 2005.

"How Immigrants Affect California Employment and wages" was just released a few days ago by Dr. Giovanni Peri, a professor of economics at UC Davis. The study was published by the Public Policy Institute of California and can be downloaded from the following address: http://www.ppic.org/main/publication.asp?i=737

The second study, "The Myth of Immigrant Criminality and the Paradox of Assimilation: Incarceration Rates Among Native and Foreign-Born Men," was authored by Dr. Ruben Rumbaut and Dr. Walter Ewing. This report was published by the Immigration Policy Center and can be found here: http://www.ailf.org/ipc/sr_index.shtml

The last report was released in 2005 by Dr. Robert Sampson, Chair of the Sociology Department at Harvard University. His study entitled "Immigrant Effects: How Latinos Nix Violence" can be found at his website http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/soc/faculty/sampson/index.html

[Bridget Burke]

42. Good for the Democrats.

This Texan wants immigration laws that reflect reality.

[Norquist Nemesis]

44. Democrats need to find a better term than "path to Citizenship"

The term 'amnesty' has caught on and stuck (thanks to Lou Dobbs). It is not amnesty!!!!!!!

[Supersedeas]

45. Uh-oh, time for a terra, terra, terra alert -- Al Gonzo to the rescue

[Eurobabe]

47. I don't support this. n/t

It's bullshit.

[raebrek]

49. Too many people do it the right way to start.....

letting just anyone who happens to be here illegally become citizens. The part that kills me is that when someone talks about the people that oppose citizenship for illegal aliens is that they paint them as being against immigration. I have no pole data to support the following inference here. "I don't think most people in the United States of America are against immigration". But I believe it to be true. Remember I said no I have no pole data, so don't ask me for any.

I just hate to hear people that are upset with illegal aliens being portrayed as being against immigration. Semi-Technically accurate but still technically wrong.

Raebrek!!!

[Bridget Burke]

105. At least one other poster in this thread is against immigration.

Legal or not.

And the groups that churn out anti "illegal" propaganda are usually against all immigration, if you look closely. Especially immigration by non-whites.

[ecstatic]

51. wow. so as US troops die, our party fights to give rights to illegal immigrants?

Illegal immigrants who broke the law and unfairly skipped to the front of the line, in front of people trying to move here from other, non-bordering countries?

[scavenger]

54. If you're looking for justice

What reasoning do you have to tie those two points together if I might respectfully ask? The way I see it,it is the legal people that live here that is getting our military killed off in Iraq. This was an illegal war that many Americans supported so that makes most people that live here criminals as well.

The difference between the illegal over here and the US citizen is that most US citizens have much more innocent blood on their hands, so what makes you better then them?

If you're looking for justice, the best place to starting looking for that is in your own heart. I give up on the God damn US justice system long ago.

I know its scary to look justice straight in the face and stand up to it for what its for. It takes courage and most americans don't have that because if they did, we wouldn't be in this Iraq war and the drug war would have ended long ago

The bottom line is most US citizens are cowards and criminals.

[ecstatic]

56. Nope. I tie the two together because nothing has been done about Iraq yet

Yet they are so quick to move on other issues.

Yes I know we as US citizens have a lot of blood on our hands for allowing Bush to be prez, and for supporting the war (not me personally, but as a whole). However, my own mother is an immigrant and it took years and years for her family to get here. She didn't get to come in illegally. Not only that, but why do some people want illegal workers to be exploited and abused by major corporations? It's a lose lose for everyone.

[scavenger]

57. Because of them being illegal

You have a good point but I believe major corporations abuse these people because of them being illegal.

I bet if it weren't for the US lead drug war, Mexico would be a better place to live because the blackmarket drug trade has made both countries hellholes in many ways, and the sad reality is to many people on both sides of the drug war depend on it for making a good living so I don't see it going away anytime soon.

[ecstatic]

58. Good points. Ironically enough, that 'legal status' will instantly cost them their jobs

These companies know exactly what they're doing: They want undocumented workers that they can exploit, abuse, pay slave wages (if they pay at all), and not have to pay taxes on. If the employer wanted legal workers, they would hire them. Giving undocumented workers legal status would only add to our unemployment lines, while the workers who are still illegal in status get all the "jobs."

[Vinca]

53. Illegal immigrants have broken the law to get here.

Would the Mexican government grant amnesty and citizenship if you did the same? The Canadians? The French? The Germans? Any other country in the world? No. To add insult to injury, many have stolen the identities of Americans to obtain social security numbers. Another crime and a major pain for the American victims to deal with. A blanket amnesty didn't work in 1986 and it won't work now. My legal immigrant husband went to great expense and effort to become a citizen the lawful way. It's not right to wave a magic wand over a group of law breakers and bestow the greatest gift in the world.

[ShortnFiery]

55. That's what I also do not understand about our illustrious Democratic Representatives

That they assume that their constituents think illegal immigrants should receive amnesty.

Why should they? We lock up our own citizens for smoking the Marijuana that the illegal Mexican cartels FREELY bring across the border.

What part of ILLEGAL do our legislators not understand?

[depakid]

60. Despite the protestations of the indigant and self righteous

The reality is many have been here for years- and have US children who are citizens. They've proven to be honest taxpaying members of communities, though I reckon that doesn't matter much to the folks who would summarily deport them.

[ShortnFiery]

67. Whoa there!

So those who waited years to have the LEGAL opportunity to immigrate don't mean squat because those who ILLEGALLY crossed the border have been here a long time? Yes? Lovely. :crazy:

Now that's just perfect and will encourage every damn body (and his brother) to do the same.

It's a tragedy all the way around but amnesty is NOT one of the solutions. :(

[depakid]

69. I'm pointing out the reality of the situation

and to be honest- scoffing at those who trot out memes like "illegal" and apply them to people in blanket form without thinking things through. There are many people and their families who are here and absent a massive purge resembling Stalin's pograms, will be here to stay.

Creating a subclass without some rational means toward legitimacy is an unhealthy predicament for society.

Does that mean massive amnesty? No. But it does recognize certain facts and understands that reasonable policy choices need to be considered that reflect the state of affairs as it is as opposed to the way people wish it was.

[EFerrari]

75. I think we should just eat them.

Win-win. :sarcasm:

[ShortnFiery]

79. It's not a meme, but a truism, they entered this country ILLEGALLY.

You are, in essence spitting in the face of millions of other LEGAL immigrants because the USA has failed to secure it's borders.

The vast majority of American Citizens and Legal Immigrants are correct that Illegal Immigrants should either be sent back to their native Country or pay a price for their treachery. They broke the law - we put people in JAIL for merely smoking Marijuana but look the other way when foreigners cross our borders ILLEGALLY. Something's wrong with this philosophy.

No, the people who crossed the border illegally need to own up to their illicit activity regardless of where they came from.

[depakid]

81. It certainly is a meme

it short circuits the reasoning process... and makes people act out emotionally and irrationally, when they ought to be considering pragmatic policy solutions.

Your last post is prime example of that. You offer nothing other than anger and self righteousness, though one could also add that American corporations and small businesses routinely violate existing laws- and do so with impunity. Perhaps your indignation would be better directed there.

Or perhaps at NAFTA- which has proven to have degraded corn prices in rural Mexico and labor conditions in urban areas.

Those are just two examples- there are many more....

[ShortnFiery]

83. No, I personally don't offer anger. And it is true the illegal immigrants crossed our

border ILLEGALLY.

My solution: Either go back to your native country with your children (some born here) OR pay a SIGNIFICANT fine in order to be granted legal status.

We must be fair to ALL IMMIGRANTS. Those that waited for years in order to immigrate to this country LEGALLY should be put to the front of the line for citizenship. All others should be facing a guaranteed cut to their wages (automatically deducted from their paycheck) OR they can return back to their home country. :shrug:

[depakid]

84. How they crossed the border doesn't speak to solutions

Though we may be making progress. It will indeed cost some money to go through whatever procedure we might set up legitimizing some immigrants- and as it stands, moneys paid into FICA and the like are forfeited already.

One the other hand, tacitly advocating a Stalin like relocation of millions of people- some of them American citizens is impractical and would prove to be a human and foreign relations nightmare.

[ShortnFiery]

89. It's not like Stalin, and no, it's not impractical just because the politicians say so ...

No, any other Country would methodically process folks who are here illegally. Unless the children they gave birth to here are able to sponsor them, then they will have to return to THEIR NATIVE COUNTRY. We are not talking of sending them back to be tortured because they are NOT seeking political asylum.

At the same time we need to "get tough" with Mexico with regards to spreading their wealth to more than just a few select families. It is the failed state of Mexico that feeds us all these poor folks who are looking for a better life. However, the answer is not to open up our borders and consider Mexico our 51st state, but to better secure our borders and put pressure on the Mexican Government to better run their Government. If Mexico helps their underclass to realize a better life, then they won't be nearly AS motivated to cross our border illegally. :shrug:

YES, this is a complex and multifaceted problem, but the most important short term measure is secure our border with Mexico. I hate to admit the foregoing because I'm on the left side of the political spectrum. :blush: However, until we can diplomatically FORCE Mexico to do right by their people, we will continue to be invaded by their poor.

It's a tragedy all the way around but the solution begins with tighter borders and NOT blanket amnesty. :shrug:

[depakid]

90. How do you moblize a forced exodus of millions of people

and expect that it won't be Stalin like?

Get serious here. The logistics alone would be staggering.

Also, tightening the border back in the 1990's (Operation Gatekeeper) produced exactly the OPPOSITE result (in public policy, this is called the law of unintended consequences).

Instead of seasonal and/or temporary workers crossing the border back & forth without documentation- what you got when it was made more difficult and riskier was that the workers stayed! Not only that- they sent for their families and extended families. The former INS documented this phenomena, which along with NAFTA and the failure to enforce the laws already on the books, substantially contributed to the present situation.

In the next decade or two, we're going to see a LOT more migration- and not just by undocumented workers. As energy costs grow and subsets of the economy (if not the macroeconomy) collapse, there'll be millions of displaced people from the Sunbelt, where the lack of public transportation and responsible land use planning will make people's live untenable.

I'd prefer that many of these folks remained where they are- but I know that won't happen- and many will move to areas (like Oregon) that had the foresight to plan for sustainability. 21st Century Okies, if you will.

[ShortnFiery]

91. It could be done and not Stalin-like. But it won't: BIG business loves an LARGE underclass. n/t

[depakid]

92. Your assertion does not comport with reality

And I think that any reasonable person who actually sits back and thinks about it understands that.

[ShortnFiery]

93. It does not comport with your reality, but it can be done if there was HONESTY

with the American People and the support of the Government. But unfortunately, both the government and the media are owned by .... wait for it ;) .... BIG BUSINESS!

YES, you will get your way. However, the result MAY be our Country's worst nightmare, i.e., another Depression. :(

[depakid]

94. Reality is objective

But for the sake of argument, assume that the xenophobic will is there and that the logistical nightmares could be resolved.

You're NOT going to uproot millions of people (11 million is the number I usually see cited) and forcibly relocate them without resorting to Stalinist tactics. Come on now. And where would all those people go? What are you going to do? dump 'em off in border towns like so much human detritus?

You reckon the Mexican government might not have a little problem with that?

As to a depression- absent some technological and financial miracles, that's already guaranteed in the coming decade(s) -(among other things, see my sig line).

[ShortnFiery]

95. IMO, the risk of A Depression is increased by those who hold your views.

We differ in opinion. Have a good evening. :hi:

[Bridget Burke]

107. We sent thousands back to Mexico during the Depression.

Including many who were here quite legally. And children who were born citizens.
www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/MM/pqmyk.html

We've already got families living in holding cells on this side of the Border. You can fit lots of people into boxcars--such as were used last time.

[Critters2]

88. Honest?

How are they working "honestly" unless they've forged or stolen an SS card or number? What does "honest" mean to you?

[ekelly]

103. Is it possible

to pay federal and state income taxes without a valid social security number?

[Bridget Burke]

106. There's no state income tax in Texas.

But lots of Sales Tax, which everybody pays. And Property Tax does get passed on to renters. Last time I checked, landlords pass on the tax increases--instead of paying out of the goodness of their hearts.

[earth mom]

86. Exactly. nt

[Joanne98]

71. Ted Kennedy is letting the US Chamber of Commerce write the bill

I'm SO SICK of getting SOLD OUT!

[ShortnFiery]

80. Yes because we all know that the true bottom line for BIG business and those

who love to enable them is "cheap labor."

The poor dumb a** conservatives like the Minutemen don't realize that the lion's share of their Republican Representatives in both houses of congress don't give a shit about their wellbeing as long as BIG BUSINESS continues to profit. How can you blame the power elite within the Republican Party who snag poor right wing votes by using inappropriate "wedge issues" such as abortion and gay marriage ... because they are so damn gullible? :shrug: Family planning should be a CHOICE and "civil unions" should be a given. Those issues are not for our governments to decide what is moral or immoral - just serve the populace.

Some of us LIBERALS think it a tragedy that those who followed the rules are being figuratively pissed on so that big business can have their "slave wage" work force intact. It's a true race to the bottom if we can't stem the flow of illegal immigration. EVERYONE within the working class LOSES. The middle class floats and the wealthy pull in big ass profits. :(

Sure, the illegal immigrants work hard and are experiencing a much better life in the balance. However, both the Republicans and Democrats in our Congress are not doing this for altruistic reasons. Republicans benefit from big business, Democrats benefit ALSO from big business. ;) As a consequence, the American Citizens who are part of the working poor classes suffer.

There's no easy answer but I can't fault LEGAL immigrants and the poor American citizen for being resentful that Illegal immigrants pay no price for crossing our borders illegally.

We need to better secure our border with Mexico, if for no other reason to stop the flow of Meth Amphetamine. Albeit it can be made anywhere, the effects to society of Meth Amphetamine abuse are devastating beyond our wildest nightmares.

[earth mom]

85. Great post! eom

[ProudDad]

99. Those DAMN MEXICANS

Allowing 1/3 of their country to end up behind OUR borders!!! :sarcasm:

[Zodiak]

101. Ted Kennedy sponsors this?

ugggh.

Normally I am a fan of all things progressive, but this is just plain wrong to me.

Our low-end jobs are super-saturated with illegals. Many cannot speak English well enough for service jobs, but are placed there anyways (cheap is cheap), and as a result, service lacks. These are jobs I knew were occupied by Americans just a few years ago. What's the difference? These companies know that INS will do nothing about it at all and are flagrantly taking advantage of it.

12 million people.....possibly more. 12 million. That is way too much for the US economy to absorb without some major displacement. Our poor suffer and have to compete against illegals. That is friggin' disgusting. Especially when one considers that we gave amnesty to a bunch of illegals just in the last generation.

As far as I'm concerned, there are 12 million people in this country who should be helping fight the Calderon government in Oaxaca. There presence here only makes things more miserable for our own poor (who are increasing at an alarming rate) and they are shipping a significant portion of our economy back home.

I will not support Democrats on this issue (I would like to know which ones). I believe that we should start the deportations, fine the crap out of corporations that hire illegals, and put pressure on the Mexican government to take care of their own people rather than happily ship their problems (and their potential revolutionaries) up here. If someone wants to become a citizen, there is a way to do it that clearly does not entail crossing the border illegally and undercutting America's lower classes.

I am for immigration (indexed to what our economy can absorb), but I am against illegal immigration. I am dead-set against rewarding illegal immigrants and asking our poor to compete against them.

[Megahurtz]

111. Great Post! n/t

[EClark5483]

114. My solution would be

to instead create a tax for both legal and illegal immigrants until they become US citizens. Use that money to secure our borders and fund some welfare and education programs, taking the burden off of American tax payers. Although, the only thing I haven't figured out, is how to properly tax an illegal, who is probably working for cash.. I guess the only thing I can think of, would be to issue permits to people to employ an illegal.

This seems more then fair to me. Your not kicking people out or preventing them from staying, but you are having them contribute to the economy instead of burdening it.

[treestar]

115. That is inaccurate

All legal residence is a "path to citizenship" under the archaic U.S. immigration laws, for one thing. Legalization does not equal citizenship. The name of the thread is untrue.

[Marrah_G]

117. What I do not get is this

Companies that hire illegal aliens for near slave wages are not going to all of a sudden start paying fair wages and abide by labor laws because the current illegal immigrants are now legal. They will simply replace them with the next wave of illegal workers. If you want to make all the illegal workers legal, I have no issue with that, as long as it is combined with some immigration control and more importantly, labor controls. They need to stop these employers who are exploiting these workers. If they don't then immigration reform is just a political talking point.