Toyota may face backlash from Congress

[Judi Lynn]

Toyota may face backlash from Congress
By KEN THOMAS, Associated Press Writer
38 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - From a high school auditorium near the birthplace of Elvis, Toyota was greeted like a hometown hero this week when it announced its eighth vehicle assembly plant in the United States.

Students cheered as the automaker showed off a Highlander sport utility vehicle that will be built starting in 2010 at the $1.3 billion plant near Tupelo, Miss. Gov. Haley Barbour called Toyota Motor Corp. the "world's premiere auto manufacturer," and Sen. Trent Lott (news, bio, voting record), the Senate's No. 2 Republican, promised "when you are in our constituency, we are warriors on your behalf."

Toyota's choice of Mississippi for a new plant should give it more clout on Capitol Hill. With Michigan-based automakers facing hardships, a few more members of Congress on its side helps as Toyota takes on some lawmakers who openly question whether what's good for Toyota and other Japanese automakers is good for America.

"They're manipulating the yen and it creates big differences in what they can sell their automobiles for," said Sen. Debbie Stabenow (news, bio, voting record), D-Mich., who represents thousands of Detroit-based auto workers. "Most of their vehicles are still coming from Japan."

Stabenow and other lawmakers representing manufacturing states complain that the Japanese government has kept the yen artificially low, allowing their auto producers to undercut competitors and reap huge profits in the United States. They note that 46 percent of Toyota's U.S. sales in 2006 came from vehicles imported from Japan, even as the company highlights its American work force and assembly plants in advertising.
(snip/...)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070302/ap_on_bi_ge/toyota_backlash;_ylt=A0WTUZaOgehF1s0Apg2yBhIF

[AndyA]

1. And Americans keep buying foreign cars.

Pride in America, putting American first, and preserving American jobs is all but gone.

Thank goodness we didn't have this selfish mindset during previous World Wars, or we'd all likely be speaking another language now.

[LanternWaste]

2. I'm not sure I grasp your take on this..

I'm not sure I grasp your take on this. Why would I be considered selfish if I own a Camry?

:shrug:

[primavera]

3. American car companies aren't building anything worth buying

As the proud owner of a Prius, I can tell you I looked long and hard for fuel efficient, low-emission cars. There are many of them out there, but every last one of them comes from Japan. Meanwhile, American automobile manufacturers are doing their damndest to increase dependency on foreign oil, foul the air we breath, and accelerate global warming by insisting upon marketing nothing but massive emission-belching, gas-guzzling monstrosities. Pride in America and putting America first is all well and fine, except when it dictates that you support a marketing strategy that is harmful to the US and the planet at large. At that point, if American manufacturers refuse to adopt more responsible marketing strategies, they don't deserve to be supported.

[earthside]

5. Wanted: Quality, Fuel Efficient Cars

As the proud owner of a 2002 and a 2006 Prius, there is simply no American-built car that matches the quality and fuel efficiency of what Toyota provides (that is probably also true for Honda).

It is sadly typical of Michigan politicians to blame the value of the yen, instead of the poor product selection of Ford and GM. Those politicos are also the ones blocking an increase in CAFE standards.

Sorry, it is American automobile corporate executives and their political flunkies that are killing the U.S. car manufacturing industry.

[phylny]

33. Agreed.

We bought a Honda CR-V in 2005 after looking at comparable Toyotas, Mercurys, Fords, and Saturns. In our opinion, not one touched the quality, fuel efficiency, and room that the Honda gave us.

Previously, we've only bought American cars. As in North American. Our two GM cars and two Chrysler cars were made in Canada.

[durtee librul]

102. There is only one LARGE problem with all of your

so called arguements against the American car companies.....rail and rant all you want against the corporations.....the true bottom line story whether you like it or not is you are hurting the auto worker who has no say in what goes on or in a vehicle.

To the reader who wrote we'd all be speaking a foreign language by now - he's right.

You see, I have spent my entire career (35+ years) in the auto industry on both sides of the fence so to speak. When we worked at American Motors, you DROVE an AMC to work...usually had a GM in the garage for Sunday church, but it was understood that what 'put bread and butter on the table and a roof over your head' was what you paid for. So much to the fact, that if you drove a 'foreign' (Ford or GM) car to the plant, you were relegated to the back rows of the employee parking lot. And if gawd forbid, you drove a rice burner, then you were across the street about 3 blocks down. Anyone who knows what wind and snow off of Lake Michigan can commiserate.

We had pride in what we built and more importantly, we BOUGHT what we made. It's not just a matter of gas mileage, it's taking care of one's own and I am here to tell you that what has been happening in the auto industry happened first in the mills where JP Stevens 'outsourced'.....it's nothing new. The cheap goods from Wal Mart and other low cost retailers drove it.

I believe in globalism as much as the next guy. What I DON'T believe in is folks who don't understand the true implications of what they are buying thinking that American car makers are a bunch of idiots (altho with the last bunch of new models, I am starting to have doubts!)....

It's not about the brand you buy - it's the jobs you are destroying in the process. People who, like most of you, probably work for a large corporation and have NO say so in what happens on the top floors, you just know, you come to work, put in an honest days work for an honest days dollar. Just remember, those Toyota trucks may be built in Texas, but the profit $$ goes back to Japan. This country is getting nothing substantive out of it and before you all get your panties in a twist, think about it rationally for a moment. (key word is 'rationally'...don't think like a freeper)

Now, that leads me to my final point - when back in the 70's we had our first gas 'crunch' everyone then was touting the same message I am hearing today - American cars are junk, they don't get good mileage..etc....same church folks, same song, just a different pew. Interesting thing was the Japanese cars at that time had the benefit of import tax on thier side....for us to ship and sell a car there, there was a HUGE tax which made it impossible for us to sell to them. So what happened, they seized the moment, dumped (and I do mean DUMPED) great numbers of cars on our shores and our wonderful leaders at the time did nothing to stop it.

Now, this 'dumping' is continuing and we all sit on our collective asses and cry about the loss of the middle class and it's jobs. You only have to look in the mirror to see the cause. I don't care what you drive. I drive American and will until the day they wrest my mangled driver's license from my gnarled hands. I feel it's the least I can do to pay back for a relatively successful middle class existence. Could I go out and buy a Honda? Sure. Will I? Nope. Is a Honda a better car? Maybe. Have had them for rentals and they are a car. Gets me from point A to point B....same as a chevy.

Could the US car companies be more in tune to the rest of the world? You bet. Their very existence depends on it. Will they? That remains to be seen.

But to put all the blame on them is to blame the workers who have no say in what they are told to weld, screw and paint together to feed their families so next time you go car shopping, think about them as well....and again, where the $$ go. They don't stay in this country....and if you think they do, then I guess it's true Ann Coulter is a top female underwear model for Victoria's Secret next catalog.

On note: Stabenow couldn't find her way out of a wet paper bag if you tore it completely off of her. She only swings whichever way the political wind is blowing. She's a looney tune.

[driver8]

116. I'm not blaming the workers -- they are victims of poor planning by their respective companies.

I am a union worker and I feel horrible that thousands of jobs are being lost.

However, it should not be expected that Americans should buy every piece of shit that rolls off an assembly line just because it was made by American labor. People deserve value and quality for their hard earned dollars, and the American auto makers are not delivering. I'll be damned if I will hand my money over to these people so that they can produce more Hummers, Tahoes, and Excursions.

[susanna]

134. Excursions are no longer built. n/t

[driver8]

136. Yeah...I know. But thanks for the info. n/t

[BrightKnight]

140. It's not the next iPod but the Ford Reflex Hybrid is a step

in the right direction.

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_display.cfm?release=22296

It looks good on the outside and there are saying all of the right things. If they made it a plug-in hybrid and sold an expanded battery pack option it would be great. I don't know how solid the engineering, performance and quality are.

Detroit should move its design teams to the west coast.

[Smooth Operator]

7. we're talking about a plant that will build an SUV here

not a fuel efficient car. It amazes me how many Americans give the Japanese a by with regard to their SUVs. If an American built SUV pollutes the air and wastes gasoline then how can a Japanese SUV not do the same. I've compared fuel mileage estimates for Chevy,Ford,Dodge,Toyota and Nissan and there isn't that much difference in MPG between the makes. In my opinion Americans will buy anything if it has a foreign name on it.

[primavera]

12. Really?

You've found a Chevy, a Ford, and/or a Dodge that gets 60 mpg? That's the mileage my Toyota Prius gets and you claim there's no difference in mileage between Toyotas and American built cars, so that's great news, where can I go to see these high fuel efficiency American-built cars? I'd love to see them! I will be a devoted GM customer for life!

[joefree1]

16. Ah, he's talking about SUVs

But then Toyota makes the best Hybrid SUV in a Highlander.

From Consumer Reports:
Midsized SUV Toyota Highlander Hybrid
The gas/electric Highlander Hybrid ($35,000 to $40,000) is an excellent overall package. It includes all the inviting attributes of the conventional Highlander plus better acceleration and moderately better fuel economy: 22 mpg
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/top-picks-for-2007-4-07/overview/0704_top-picks-2007.htm

[wuushew]

19. I think the base 2007 Highlander 2x4 comes with an 2.4L I-4 engine

and gets high twenties in gas mileage.

[primavera]

20. True, but that's part of the problem, isn't it?

Strangely, I don't need a tank capable of performing amphibious landings under fire like so many Americans seem to believe they need, I just need a car. But go into any GM showroom and what you will find will be monster trucks, SUVs, and two-ton luxury sedans, for none of which do I have the slightest use. All I want is a car which provides reliable transportation without consuming inordinate amounts of fuel and spewing out inordinate amounts and to get that, I evidently have to go to foreign automobile producers to find it, because my own country's automobile producers refuse to produce anything other than SUVs and monster trucks, so to hell with them.

[all.of.me]

35. i get that in my '91 4runner, which is paid for.

i wish they'd make a good-size 4WD that gets 50 or 60 mpg. i haven't bought a new car since 1982, but i'd jump on that one.

[susanna]

148. I hear that.

Unfortunately, 4WD is the biggest gas-sucking invention ever - okay, that's probably hyperbole. But those mechanics are HEAVY; that's what causes the MPG problem.

In winter climates, A/4WD can be helpful, but here (in Michigan) it is only truly useful a few days each winter. And, as I always tell people: "4WD does get you going a bit faster, but stopping is a way different story." A lot of people think 4WD means they'll have more control in crappy conditions. The truth is, you can actually have less control, at least in terms of braking distances (especially if you are hauling because you think you are invincible).

So I stick with either FWD or RWD in my snowbound city; it's cheaper and makes more sense over time. Of course, if you're in woodland or rural conditions, and are driving reasonably, 4WD is the best thing that could ever happen to you. :-)

[boilerbabe]

160. I have to have 4WD just to get up my driveway in the winter! n/t

[Kolesar]

22. 60 mpg in a Prius? Did you measure that going downhill?

[yasmina27]

25. I'm not the person you are responding to

but we're on our 3rd Prius (first 2 bought for the tax deduction, among myriad other bennies, 3rd bought for the $3150 tax credit this year).

Yes, we get 60+ MPG on the highway w/ cruise control set on the up-and-down hills of the PA turnpike. Contrary to the claims of Toyota, we still get better mileage on the highway than city driving. Maybe if we sat in rush-hour traffic it would be different - I have watched the mileage increase when we do sit in traffic.

No, the car is not as perfect as depicted in the glossy ads.

But, bad mileage on a Prius beats great mileage on almost any other car out there.

I see this as progress toward an ideal vehicle.

[primavera]

75. Thank you!

Isn't it interesting the way that people seem to accept fatalistically that the gas mileage figures for their own vehicles may vary slightly from those achieved in idealized test circumstances, yet, if a hybrid vehicle, under any circumstances, gets so much as a half mile per gallon less than the official figure, they suddenly denounce the still vastly superior gas mileage of hybrid vehicles as hype, and go back to feeling good about themselves for driving cars which get 15 or 20 mpg because, hey, the Prius only got 58 mpg instead of 60! Yeah, now there's thinking. :eyes:

[Kolesar]

84. She is lying about that highway mileage ... eom

[yasmina27]

153. By "she" are you referring to me?

If so, you have no right to say that I am lying. You don't know me. I don't know you. So let's stop with the unfounded accusations. Next time maybe preface with "IMO", or "I think".

We don't do long-distance highway driving very often, but when we do, we have gotten 60+mpg. Next time I will take a picture & post it.

There is a technique called "feather driving" or something similar that I learned about on a Prius discussion board. Basically, it means that you only apply the lightest pressure on the gas pedal (while maintaining your desired speed) while watching the on-board mileage tracker. The challenge is to keep the tracker at the highest level possible under the given driving conditions.

I have used this technique on our other vehicle - a real gas-guzzler - and have slightly improved on mileage on it as well.

[susanna]

154. I LOVE those on-board mileage trackers.

If people really understood how changing just slight things in their driving behaviors measured into better fuel economy, we would all be better off. Kudos to you for learning how your vehicles perform best, hybrid or not. I wish more people would do that.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nihil]

149. Sounds like they're driving badly.

I've never yet got LESS than 42 mpg averaged over a full tank.
My average is usually in the high 40s but I can often get mid-50s
and even mid-60s if I drive appropriately.

The point is that I rarely drive appropriately over a full
tank ... too many years of a different driving style and different
journey requirements makes me a bad Prius driver unless I consciously
make the effort.

I can quite believe that in a flat county, driving properly, the
earlier poster can get 60+ mpg ... the point to bear in mind is
that they would also be getting better than 20mpg out of one of
the standard shit-buckets if they drove the same way - fuel economy
doesn't mean you have to buy a new car!

[yasmina27]

152. Thank you

I was about to reply in a not-so-nice way, but you put it so much better!

[susanna]

47. LOL. I work in the auto industry

and have driven ALL the hybrids out there at length as an analyst. I wonder the exact same thing.

Unless of course he's the guy driving 46 on the freeway in the stop-and-go lanes. The perfect hybrid owner would also drive 20-some around town trying to stay in electric mode. Of course, he needs to be in flat land to achieve anywhere near that, and even then I think it's a stretch.

I would be interested in his long-term stats to correlate such a thing. And if he just got it one perfect weekend, well, that does not count.

[Kolesar]

62. Can you tell me how a Saturn "dual mode" hybrid works?

I wrote to a GM media guy and he just ignored me.

[susanna]

99. My thought on that is that...

...the "dual-mode" label is more of a marketing/press release thing, as it seems to just be bringing the GM hybrid in line with the currently available full-hybrid Toyota and Ford systems.

From what I understand, the original GM hybrid never ran off electric alone; it simply used the electric battery for regenerative braking and power assist, not sustainable driving. I could be wrong, though. I can check with some colleagues next week and get back to you via PM to confirm.

[Kolesar]

110. There are certain speeds at which the internal combustion engine is most efficient

I think the dual mode is a technique to keep the engine running at those speeds. By overspinning the planetary transmission?? I don't know. Your hunch that the vehicle never runs wholly electric seems to agree with that.

Oh, well, back to my other projects. Keep me posted, please.

[susanna]

121. Will do.

I'm on vacation for a few days, but I'm sure I can get back on it soon.

[primavera]

76. LOL. Whatever it gets, it's a hell of a lot better than what you get.

Even if, in real world driving conditions, it only got half as many miles to the gallon as achieved under test conditions, it would still get twice the mileage the average SUV gets. As it happens, the Prius does actually get pretty close to the official figures, so it's really more like four times the mileage of an SUV and twice the mileage of even the most fuel efficient American passenger car on the market. Lol.

[susanna]

96. Well the kicker there is,

I am not looking for 60 MPG, because I do not need to. Why? I drive short (very short) distances for everything I do, which enters into the equation as well. I am curious: how many miles do you drive each year?

At the moment, I have a 1993 vehicle (purchased in July, 1992) in my driveway. It has 54,342 original miles on the odometer (I double-checked to be fair). So...that equals about 3,881 miles driven a year. Do you do better than that? If you do, you ARE the king.

It is not only what you drive, it is how often and long you drive it. Just saying.

[primavera]

109. Why don't you need to get higher gas mileage?

Okay, so you drive less than 4,000 miles per year, that's great. If you were driving those 4,000 miles in a fuel efficient car rather than a gas guzzler, just think of how little fuel you would be consuming! It'd be marvellous! You could really be helping reduce global warming, reduce dependence on foreign oil, and improve the quality of the air we breath. Instead, you're saying that it's okay to consume more fuel than you have to for your purposes because you don't drive as many miles as some people, so the collective impact of your wasteful consumption is les than that of other people's wasteful consumption. Okay, fine, but it's still wasteful consumption. Is that really something you're proud of?

As for me, I drive a little more, probably about 6,000 miles in a year. Unfortunately, where I live there's no public transportation and it's too cold in the winter to walk or bike much, so there aren't many ways to further trim my consumption, but in the summer at least I can reduce still further my consumption by riding a moped, which gets 120 mpg, so manage to save on the number of car-miles I drive each year that way.

[susanna]

122. My 1993 car is a 5-speed manual sub-compact

that gets 26(C) - 32(H) MPG. DRUM ROLL...It's a VW Fox - I'm not exactly running a 10 MPG SUV. So I'm not sure why you think I am driving a gas guzzler. I don't think I gave that impression on any of my posts. I think maybe you are reading into the fact that I work for the domestics that I must drive a gas guzzler. Is that the case?

In case you are jonesing at the fact I have purchased a foreign car, I bought the VW long before I worked in the domestic auto industry. I was with an IT company when I purchased it, and I am one of those crazy folks who buy a car and drive it 'til it dies. It has been a good car, and it was affordable when I bought it just out of college. That said, even VW these days is having quality issues.

One other thing: I am about three days away from signing the paperwork on a lease for a Mercury Milan. Great car, 23 MPG sticker. I took it for a test drive and was extremely impressed. The old VW is going into restoration come summer (it's such a cool car my husband wants to keep it restored and fun for summer drives - it's like a little go-cart).

I also live in a winter climate. I'd drive even less if not.

Hope this helps.

on edit: clarification, plus I was being pissy

[primavera]

141. I admit it, I'm an absolutist

An Incovenient Truth scared the crap out of me and I've become more militant on the subject of air quality than I have been in the past. I guess where I'm coming from is the relatively recent recognition that we can, in fact, do substantially better than we have been doing; despite the mythology promoted by the oil and gas industry with the complicty of the automotive industry, the technology does exist and it works just fine, thank you very much. And just imagine the benefits to air quality and atmospheric integrity if every person who drove a car drove a high fuel-efficiency, ultra low emissions vehicle. Damn, we'd probably solve the energy crisis and fix global warming and god knows how many respiratory health problems afflicting the population with that one single move! Since that technology is there and perfectly viable, what is our excuse for not availing ourselves of that opportunity and taking that mighty leap forward? Because we want big engines that make loud, throaty "vroom" sounds? Seems like kind of a meagre benefit to be willing to sacrifice the health of the planet for it.

[susanna]

143. As I said, we think a lot alike.

I have a inbred revulsion to wastefulness of any sort. I work very hard to make sure I contribute to the planet, not just consume from it. I'm the crazy lady in my urban neighborhood who grows her own vegetables and makes her own compost from vegetable scraps, egg shells, coffee grounds, and lawn waste. Yet I work for an domestic auto manufacturer; doesn't get any weirder than that! ;-)

I have had long bouts of conscience about what I do for a living, but I have come to the conclusion that you change very little from the outside. I do what I can inside, and though it is not much, many people I work with now come to me to ask about environmental issues, and I do what I can to help them see all our opportunities. So, progress is slow, but there is progress.

This thread has been very interesting for me, and not the least because of your well-founded concerns. It actually made me realize today what I am fighting for. It is not the domestic companies, per se. It honestly is for the current and former employees of these once-innovative companies; companies I believe can be innovative again. I will continue to work towards that end. I hope we can change minds some day, that's all.

Peace.

[susanna]

46. That's apples and oranges, and I think you know it.

The previous poster was pointing out the fact that yes, Toyota and Honda offer hybrid vehicles. But they also - and this is a big point - have gas-sucking SUVs as well. I think he was nicely telling you that these companies somewhat gloss over their participation in this foreign-fuel-dependence market. But then they show you a nice shiny new Prius and all is forgotten.

The domestic manufacturers, to be sure, have been idiots about where things were going. That said, it is disingenuous to try to make Toyota as some sort of planetary salvation brigade when they are making the very same vehicles (SUVs) the domestics do...for huge profits, since their government loves to manipulate currency AND close their borders to our domestic manufacturers' products.

Just saying.

[primavera]

74. No, it's not at all

That's precisely my point. You and the other poster are trying to suggest that because Toyota has made some gas guzzler cars and SUVs and continues to offer those vehicles, they deserve no credit for offering a whole series of new vehicles which do not belch emissions and guzzle gas. Okay, fine, you win: Toyota, like every other manufacturer on earth has produced and continues to produce some gas guzzlers. But what the hell does that have to do with anything? My point was that, UNLIKE American automobile manufacturers, Toyota has at least recognized the importance of producing more fuel efficient, low emissions vehicles, has invested the necessary resources to take that recognition from the drawing board to the production line, and is now offering not just the stellar Prius Hybrid, but a whole slew of non-hybrid vehicles which still boast mileage figures far higher than anything the American automobile market is producing. See the Yaris, which gets 40mpg, or the Matrix, which gets 36 mgp. Or consider the Nissan Versa, which gets 39 mpg, or the Psion xA, which gets 38 mpg, and so on and so on.

Meanwhile, what have the American car manufactureres done in response to the growing crises of air quality, global warming, rising fuel prices, and dependence upon foreign oil? Right, exactly: not one goddamned thing. They just keep trying to push more Hummers and monster trucks down the throats of American consumers. And you want me to support that? Uh, thanks, but no thanks.

[susanna]

98. Uh, I don't want you to support a damned thing.

But do me a favor and take a trip to the wayback machine, oh, mid to late-90s or so. I have a little quiz for you:

1) What were American consumers buying?

a) SUVs
b) Hybrids
c) Compact cars

ANSWER: a, SUVs. Which I hated, even working in the industry. Yes, they granted us EXTREME profits, but my personal feeling was who needs a 4WD to go to the supermarket? That said, that was where the market was - you KNOW that is true. One thing I can say: I have never owned an SUV, and I never will.

But the idea that somehow U.S. consumers never fell for the SUV schtick back in the day is laughable. Consumers were buying that crap up as fast as we could put it out. The U.S. consumer plays no small part in what is built for this country, and unfortunately the auto companies thought it would last forever. Bad mix.

My personal opinion is Toyota got lucky with the Prius. They probably built it for the niche "green" consumer based on marketing feedback. Then, when gas went north, folks bought 'em up.

My take anyway.

[primavera]

108. No real argument

Sorry, I wasn't trying to let American consumers off the hook in terms of responsibility for driving gas-guzzling cars, so sure, they're part of the equation, no argument. But there are multiple parts to this equation, and the specific part I was addressing in the context of this particular conversation was that played by the automobile industry, which has heavily marketed SUVs and monster trucks. Consumers may make choices, but they don't make them in a vaccuum: if they're being bombarded night and day with advertisements depicting SUVs as being key to happiness in life, a lot of them will be influenced by that. Advertising does work, why else would companies spend billions of dollars doing it every year if it didn't have an impact?

Let's take a another trip in the wayback machine to the Carter years, when gas prices were sky high and the government was trying to promote smaller, more fuel efficient cars. Suddenly, a great many consumers "chose" to buy smaller cars. Then Reagan cam along with his don't worry, be happy message, encouraged everyone to forget about conservation and just be purely selfish in their consumerism, and suddenly consumers made a different "choice." Let's face it, consumer choices are extremely maleable, so I don't think you can lay 100% of the responsibility for the popularity of gas-guzzlers at the feet of consumer choice and let off the hook the companies spending billions in advertising to influence those choices.

[susanna]

123. KevinJ, we are more in agreement than you think.

If you look at some of my other posts on this thread, I completely agree with you on some points. American consumers follow the gas prices; no argument here on that score...but you need to understand that marketing departments (especially naive, insulated ones like we have in the Motor City) live and die by those demographics. And, no real surprise, the domestics got hammered when gas prices soared recently; they were operating on an expired model.

I too question the ridiculousness of what happened in the 90s - I was a child of the 70s gas crunch myself. As a matter of fact, within my own company during the 90s, I was asking executives of every stripe to read "The Reckoning" by David Halberstam. I told them we were in danger of falling into the trap again. I was rebuffed, and felt defeated. But I kept speaking up. Still do, as a matter of fact.

You would think my experience as an employee would make me angry at the domestics and turn me away. To the contrary. I absolutely believe - passionately - that it is an industry worth saving. It took me years to get to this point, and my faith has been tested on the inside more than you can ever know.

Seriously - read a few of my posts. I do not let the domestics off the hook. They have done some stupid crap over the last 20 years. That said, I know that the rank and file have been saying the same thing you have for years. We are still trying to get our management to see. We might die off, but it is not because of me and my colleagues' efforts. Not at all. We have nothing to regret.

All I am trying to do in this thread is to explain, in a nutshell, what the potential fallout of the loss of these companies would mean. I'm not lying - it is huge. And that isn't just to save my job. I have a second home-based job that could actually support me, truth be told. I am staying in the industry because I care.

I have not meant to get into arguments with you. I agree with much of what you say. What you need to do is trust that there are people (like me) on the inside trying to turn things around. That is my job every day, and I take it more seriously than you know.

on edit: tense

[primavera]

139. I believe you

I'm sorry, I think we're in some ways arguing at cross purposes, because I don't dispute at all what you say. I certainly don't want the American auto industry to go belly up. What I do want is for them to start offering in this country some of the cars they've been offering in Europe for years. My sense is that bigger, pricier cars tend to produce higher profit margins for car companies than do smaller, cheaper cars and I suspect that plays a role in why it is that we're not seeing more small, fuel-efficient cars being offered in the US by the American automobile industry. That suspicion leads me to the secondary suspicion that the only thing that will induce the American auto industry to begin offering more fuel-efficient cars is if they start losing business hand over fist to foreign car companies that are producing environmentally friendly vehicles. So, I buy a foreign car, not out of any particular devotion to foreign autombiles, but in the hopes that my consumer choices, when combined with the consumer choices of enough other Americans, will finally get the message through the thick skulls of the American automobile industry executives that they need to change their marketing strategy. I have no doubt that there are people such as yourself on the inside trying to talk sense into the higher ups, but I also believe corporations to be autocratic institutions which pay little attention to what their serfs tell them, so I hold little hope that they will voluntarily see reason and will ultimately have to be compelled through fiscal necessity to mend their ways.

[susanna]

145. You are correct on many of your assumptions.

Most, in fact. They are starting to listen, so I will continue to hope we can do something about it. I'm an eternal optimist.

[boilerbabe]

159. I think the comparison was between regular gas-burners

of the Truck/SUV type. I own 2 Toyotas, a Ford, and a Buick. My Toyota pickup is now 20 and gets decent gas mileage, runs great. My other Toyota (90 4 Runner) gets shitty mileage, but also runs great. The other 2 cars are dead in driveway. So if nothing else, Toyota puts out a very dependable, long lived vehicle.

US auto makers really should get with the program and start manufacturing cars like the Prius.

[kestrel91316]

95. I have no interest in ANY SUV, regardless of maker. I just don't

need a phallic symbol, I guess.

[Maine-ah]

103. yep, but I haven't had a single problem

with my 2001 Nissan Xterra. It has 72k miles on it. My jeeps, well, I had nothing but problems with those. One needed new brakes b/f I put 6k on it, and the other had brakes twice b/f 30k. Two different models too, and nothing but problems at the dealerships as well. One excuse after another to try to explain away the shoddy work. I've also got a VW Jetta 1992! With well over 100k on it. No problems there either. I have owned Fords, will never buy another one.

So, if they want to come and bring good jobs to the USA, and make good products, I'm all for it.


edit, spelling

[durtee librul]

104. I work at a major automotive

company and if you think parts are made in the US to be put in these cars guess again - - most are now made in MX and Canada....and I even have a couple plants in Japan (for an "American" car) and in SE Asia.

Tell me how that helps American jobs. I won't even get started on what they are trying to do to the worker. Most of the workers in the MX plants I have are 14 years old, avg plant age is 22. SE Asia is younger.

But again, this all just fits in with Bush Sr's call for a 'new world order'. Google that.

The car companies are the last big thorn in the gubmint's plan to erase borders and build their damn super highway to dump more crap into this country so WalMart can become even larger.

Please people, surely you can't be THAT ignorant to see what is really happening around here.

What I'd like to know is why GE is buying large parts of Abbott Labs in N. Chicago for?

[Cobalt-60]

45. They're not American Cars anymore

The parts are made in China, Mexico, India, anywhere but here.
Indeed I've thought since the 80s that our manufacturers took a deliberate 'dive' in quality and bought shares in foreign companies.
That way they could both disgrace and beggar the hated American worker at the same time.

[high density]

69. That's the main problem IMHO

I just bought a new "Made in Japan" car because there was nothing offered by the American companies that I wanted to buy. Build something worth buying, and I'll buy it. To be a smart vehicle consumer you need to be focused on a bit more than "Made in USA." I think the value of my "Made in Japan" car was far above anything coming from GM, Ford, or Chrysler.

[driver8]

115. Exactly! What do we get from American manufacturers?

More fucking Hummers!!

The American car makers need to pull their collective heads out of their collective asses.

[youngdem]

4. If American companies would quit making ugly, undependable trash, I would buy it

But I would never buy a shitty product just because my countrymen made it...I'm not rich, nor are most people.

American cars are un-stylish, get poor mileage, break more often and aren't cheap enough to justify the trade off.

American car companies could learn a lot about making cars from Toyota. Too bad their spending all their time with their heads up their ass trying to lay off their way to profitability and lobbying Congress to pressure Toyota to start making shitty ugly cars like America.

Jealousy is all this is. And whining about yen manipulation? That's rich....It's not like Bush is allowing the dollar to tank intentionally for his own nefarious reasons, right?

[B3Nut]

8. Last car-buying go-around

I looked at everything Detroit had to offer (coming from an Escort ZX2 which I loved) and nothing was as efficient as my expiring 'scort. I bought a Kia Rio5 hatchback. Even the Koreans are cleaning our clock. Almost 33,000 miles on that car in the year I've had it. It's a solid little car.

If Ford gave enough of a damn about their own countrymen to sell their best designs HERE instead of selling their best designs in Europe (new Mazda3-based Focus, the Fiesta, even the Ka) and giving the US the wretched leftovers they'd be in better shape. Ditto GM. Daimler-Chrysler seems lost.

TP

[susanna]

49. Oh, I agree with you

B3nut. The internet has made the possibility of domestic manufacturers passing off cr4p here obsolete; now we can see what the rest of the world gets. I absolutely agree that some of the Euro and Asia-Pacific models of the domestics are far superior to the offerings here.

[GainesT1958]

56. That's a super point!

I've agreed with the likes of Automobile and Car and Driver magazines for several years about why Ford, for example, doesn't bring its best models stateside. I mean, they're an AMERICAN company, right? One that STARTED the mass-produced automobile? And yet they build (for example) the new Mazda3-based Focus and sell it only in Europe? While we still get the same old tired model here? What an insult that is to the American consumer! The Edge? The Five Hundred? Boy, those vehicles sure are styling turn-ons--NOT! :eyes:

Other than their full-sized pickup and the Escape Hybrid, the only thing Ford has going for it these days is the new Mustang, the Fusion (actually a pretty well-designed, and not bad-looking, car), and the T-Bird. They can thank their lucky stars that they own Mazda and Volvo; those divisions along with the F-150 pickup are what's keeping the lights on in the big glass house in Dearborn right now.

B-)

[AndyA]

9. Thank you for proving my point with your first sentence.

I have a neighbor with two Toyotas, one of which is CONSTANTLY in the shop for something. Meanwhile, my American made cars start first time, every time, and have not given me any problems.

As for styling, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And there are lots of ugly, ugly, ugly foreign cars.

The American manufacturers have huge expenses related to their employees - your fellow Americans. Would you want your benefits/salary cut by your employer in order to be competitive? I doubt it.

[Solon]

21. You know your argument would be stronger except for a few things...

First, Toyota's CEO makes almost 5 times LESS than GM's CEO's FRINGE benefits, less than a million dollars a year, all told. GM could, you know, uhm, have a CEO compensation package that equals Toyota's and be able to let's say, make quality vehicles, and STOP outsourcing car manufacturing. I don't want to cut the benefits or salary of employees, but GM disagrees.

As far as I can tell, "American" car companies aren't even that American, much of the manufacturing is outsourced, even final assembly in many cases, to either Mexico or Canada. I don't see why it should matter where a company chooses to incorporate, as long as they employ Americans. Japanese and Korean based companies are actually INCREASING American Jobs, the only two "American" companies left(Daimler-Chrysler doesn't count) are laying them off.

[jhasp]

44. But......

If you were offered a set salary and had the choice of being CEO of Toyota or GM, which would you choose? GM has to pay it's CEO more because it's a job no decent CEO would want.

[ProudDad]

87. What?????

"GM has to pay it's CEO more because it's a job no decent CEO would want."

I think you've got it back wards. There are hardly any decent CEO's in the USA so it doesn't matter what they make they're all shits... Some are more rapacious than others...

What point are you trying to make?

Could it be that you'd rather buy a car from an overpaid piece of shit than to buy a more fuel efficient, more reliable car from a CEO who makes something approaching a reasonable salary when compared to the average worker?

I don't think so...

[kestrel91316]

97. Pssstt--

There's no such thing as " 5 times less". You probably mean either "80% less", or "one-fifth as much".

5 times less is an oxymoron, and this sort of thing is my favorit pet peeve...... sorry.

[susanna]

135. By my rough counts...

According to Consumer Reports, linked here -

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/which-companies-make-the-best-cars/what-is-an-american-car/0407best_glo.htm?resultPageIndex=1&resultIndex=1&searchTerm=

Domestic Models assembled in Canada/Mexico
* = built in more than one country

Canadian-built models (17)
Buick LaCross/Allure
Chevrolet Equinox
Chevrolet Impala
Chevrolet Monte Carlo
Chevrolet Silverado*
Chrysler 300
Chrysler minivans*
Chrysler Pacifica
Dodge Charger
Dodge Magnum
Ford Crown Victoria
Ford Edge
GMC Sierra*
Lincoln MKX
Mercury Grand Marquis
Pontiac Grand Prix
Pontiac Torrent

Mexican-built models (13)
Buick Rendezvous
Cadillac Escalade EXT & ESV
Chevrolet Avalanche
Chevrolet HHR
Chevrolet Silverado*
Chevrolet Suburban*
Chrysler PT Cruiser
Dodge Ram*
Ford Fusion
GMC Sierra*
GMC Yukon XL*
Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ
Mercury Milan

So, 30 models altogether. I'll do some more math, just to see it through to its logical conclusion.

Chrysler/Dodge model count (from websites) is 23.
GM model count (from website) is 77.
Ford/Linc/Merc model count (from website)is 32.
Total models, domestic manufacturers: 132 models

132 models total, minus
30 models built in Mexico or Canada, equals
102 models built elsewhere (and I am willing to bet you the vast majority of these are made in the U.S.; plant infrastructures are expensive, and the domestics have a ton of infrastructure here). Let's say we make 70% in the U.S.A. That percentage represents a still-healthy number of good middle class jobs.

Just some info.

[Steak1]

146. Though your list is incomplete

I don't know the origin of most models, but in my case, a Ford Ranger, is made in Mexico. If that 'bestseller' was forgotten from your list, I'm sure many more were left off as well.

[susanna]

147. Uh - Ranger

was built in Twin Cities, MN (slated to close) and Edison, NJ (now closed). What year is your vehicle?

Also - my post had nothing to do with bestsellers. I was pointing out the 30 vehicles built in Mexico/Canada, realizing that I didn't have time to type out the remaining 102 models (most built here). Just something to keep in mind.

[Shakespeare]

29. yet the Japanese automakers in the US pay comensurate salaries/benefits....

Hmmm. Wonder how that happens.

Patriotism does not equal OR include buying a piece of shit car. I've owned American and I've owned Japanese, and the American cars simply do not measure up. It's hideously lazy for American carmakers to argue that they can't produce such a product, thereby using that as a bullshit excuse to put out an inferior product. They've tried to use the same whining bullshit about CAFE standards, and have been embarrassed many times over by foreign carmakers who did what the US automakers claimed wasn't possible.

As soon as they step up, I'll buy American again.

[susanna]

50. You did see the recent story

about the leaked Toyota memo pointing out that they need to start paying their assemblers less, didn't you? If not, I will try and find it for you. Actually, OhioChick did it in post #39. Take a look, there's a link. (Thanks, OhioChick!)

Fact is, once Toyota breaks the backs of the domestics, their employees start getting sh!t wages. Watch and see.

But, in the meantime, pile on the domestics. They really screwed you over, what with a 40-hour workweeks, vacation time and the inability to fire you without cause! Damn those stupid unions. If it weren't for them, we could work for $5 a day in China!

on edit: new info

[pampango]

65. Some excerpts from the story.

http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070208/BUSINESS01/70208019

"In a memo to workers at the plant after the report was circulated, Toyota noted that workers at Georgetown earned $3 an hour more than the U.S. auto industry standard. The Free Press reported last week the workers averaged $30 an hour, including bonuses."

"Sudo’s 42-page report, which was left unsecured on computers at Toyota’s Georgetown, Ky., plant, says, “The U.S. auto industry pays among the highest manufacturing wages in the world. Compared with Japan and France, the U.S. auto industry pays 50 percent higher wages and over five times more than Mexico’s auto manufacturers.”"

Now Toyota pays more than the auto industry average, which is 50% higher than in Japan and France. It is not exactly a sweatshop.

"“They (Toyota management) worry about details. They never stop worrying,” said David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor. “They encourage worrying in the company, from the top down.”

Every manager in every company in the country worries about everything that affects the company, or should. That includes wages, marketing, supplies, distribution, engineering, etc. I trust that the Big Three worry about these things too. I hope that they are smarter than Toyota and don't let these concerns become public knowledge.

[Shakespeare]

72. How unfortunate for you; you seem to think the corporate structure and the workers.....

....are all of a piece. They aren't.

I'm not "piling on," just being bluntly honest about the quality of the vast majority of American cars. It's despicable for any company--or any individual on this board--to try and shame somebody into buying a shitty product based on the false logic that we're harming the American worker. When cars are 100% made in America, and are of a quality that makes buying one worthwhile, then come talk to me.

[susanna]

92. That was not my point at all. How am I trying to shame anyone?

Near as I see, I am putting forth arguments that have not yet been raised. If you choose to feel shamed, that is your issue, not mine.

My point is still what YOU don't seem to get. Once the domestics are gone, the leaked memo is pretty indicative of the next phase. At that point, Toyota have no reason to keep paying above-average wages. The only reason they do it now is to stall nascent union drives. With the domestic competition fully gone, call me back; you'll see what they do. I already have a very good idea of what will happen.

Domestic cars have had their problems, that is true. But Japanese manufacturers have theirs as well. As a matter of fact, the bigger they get, the more frequent the recalls. Just like the domestic manufacturers have experienced over the years. It's not easy being top dog.

So, once Toyota/Honda etc. are on top, I will be highly interested to see if their quality can keep up in the face of building millions of salable units each year. Right now, they are still below what the Big 2.5 put out. When they become the country's biggest manufacturers, I doubt their current "quality" methods can handle that kind of load. I have adopted a wait and see approach, but let's just say I have a hunch.

[durtee librul]

105. So Shakespere

where do you work?

Check your facts before you post like you did. There is NO car which is 100% made in America. Not one.

Again, I work in the industry and visit plants all around the world - each one I visit has multiple automotive customers, Honda parts go down the same line as GM, GM parts the same process as Toyota parts....

The big difference is this - - where does the profit go on each one of these cars? Remove the nameplate for a minute from your arguement - - Ford, stays in the US, GM same, DCX, not sure where the profits go, but probably to Germany. Toyota - Japan, Honda, same.

Who benefits now? The arguement here should be how do we protect OUR country? It's not by buying 'foreign' cars, no matter where in KY or MS they are built. THis is the real BIG picture....not some temporary car arguement of who gets the best mileage or whose water pump lasts longer....it's whose country will survive.

It's just a matter of time - they get the market share, set up the 'giant' as Wally world has done, and they rule. Makes Hiroshima payback seem small (ok, that was low - I deserve to be flamed for that)

[Shakespeare]

117. Did I say there was a car 100% made in America? No, I didn't.

And what does where I work have to do with anything?

I don't have tons of money to spare. I have no choice but to buy the best, most dependable car for the money, and right now that list does not include American cars. This is not a "temporary car argument." This is a matter of Detroit thinking they can produce shitty cars and guilt the populace into buying them.

Perhaps it would be better for the long-term health of this country if the big 3 DID go under. You want big picture? THAT is big picture.

[Esra Star]

119. I think that they already went under, probably tewnty years ago.

It's just the iconic nature of American Autos that stops someone
saying the emperor has no clothes.

[tstan]

162. Not to be rude but I think you should drive to your local GM dealer

If you look on the window today of a "American car" you will notice it is by far not 100% made in America, LOL i guess you missed the memo that the new Ford Shelby Cobra GT 500 an American Legendary Muscle car is not even 50% US parts and the Toyota Avalon at my local dealer is 90% American parts. Therefore if you consider an American car to be the one with the largest amount of GDP coming in from the production of an automobile then Toyota is more American then Ford in many instances. If you consider an American automobile to be striclty determined by the brand name then yea Ford and GM are totaly American.

[NashVegas]

82. It's Not the Unions or the Assemblylines That Screwed Up

If the cars were selling well, it wouldn't matter what union benefits were.

It's management, R & D, and marketing who are the screw-ups.

[susanna]

93. Do NOT get me started on marketing.

The Big 2.5 marketing departments couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. They have all missed the fragmentation of markets that have occurred even within the rise of the Internet. All of the sudden, domestic consumers can see what their European and Japanese cohorts are getting for their money, and frankly, the U.S. offerings fall short in comparison.

U.S. management also looked at short-term profits over long-term relevance. For anyone interested, the domestic manufacturers' crisis right now is nothing new; disturbingly, it's a re-run. The first appearance of this phenomenon was chronicled in a book written after the gas crunch of the 70s by David Halberstam called The Reckoning. The book is a fascinating look at the gas guzzlers of that day and the disdain of U.S. automaker management to the smaller, more fuel efficient Japanese imports.

[NashVegas]

101. Too Late!

..

[susanna]

106. LOL. True enough. Sorry. :-) n/t

[aggiesal]

38. "The American manufacturers have huge expenses related to their employees"

Not true.
The Wall Street Journal, about 1 year ago, did a study.
The US Auto manufacturers say that it cost about $5K (I think, don't know the exact number) per car to pay for their pension plan.

What the Wall Street Journal found out was that it cost this much, not because of the workers pension plan, but because of the executives pension plan. I think the AutoManu's left that detail out.

I would love to have save this story so I could have provided an link.

[susanna]

51. Yes, please - try and find it. I would be interested in that. n/t

[aggiesal]

58. Ask and you shall receive.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=440305

[susanna]

68. Oh. I thought you had something new that I hadn't seen.

Sorry. My bad.

That article just tells me that CEOs and top execs do; they screw the workers. That has been happening since the dawn of time. The Big 2.5 are no exception. They see the writing on the wall and they'll suck the place dry before it goes belly up. Standard operating procedure for any company facing the final curtain, I dare say.

The unions have been offering a boat load of concessions to the domestic automakers lately, but if the CEO/exec ranks keep this sh*t up, that will stop.

[Auntie Bush]

88. We have a Camray with 90,000 miles and have only had a 70,000

mile check-up. The most reliable car we ever owned. We alwayd bought American and got sick of the break downs.

[Ghost Dog]

13. Totyota vehicles are, usually, certainly of excellent quality.

Which markets usually want.

Myself, I used to be a (relatively) unassuming (European) Peugeot fan. I like to drive (as in rallying), even now at my 50+ age.

But I find myself, based on RAV4 (short, two-door, also not for sale in USA - very sorry, but it's one of the smallest good-driving 'SUVs' on the EU market) experience, maybe permanently switching to Toyota.

Watch, for example, the new range of small, sexy models just launched in Europe under the name 'Auris', of which I expect to see a hybrid version soon to be announced.



http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/toyota-auris-range-1005356.html

[Kolesar]

23. Toyota recalled more than they *built* last year

Do you know what quality is?

[Ghost Dog]

27. If so, would indicate commitment to quality?

¿Link for that data, please?

[Kolesar]

60. Recalls cost the company money. It is called a "quality cost".

Another quality cost would be lost customers due to reliability or other customer issues. Having to retool a production line to deal with a problem in initial release is a quality problem.

As for Toyota's growth of recalls: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Toyota+recalled+more+than+they+built&btnG=Google+Search

[LiberalHeart]

73. I just bought a Toyota Yaris ...

Three doors counting the rear one (hatchback). I haven't picked it up yet; haven't even driven it except on the dealer's lot. I read a review in which someone said it looks like a cartoon. I think that's a fitting description, but I like it. If I recall correctly, they're claiming 39 MPG highway. I'll believe it when I see it.

[primavera]

77. I test drove the Yaris...

... just recently and liked it a lot too. Fabulous turning radius, I felt like I could have almost done a 180 turn in a parking space as opposed to backing out! Okay, so that's an exaggeration, but it still felt like a very handy little car. The manual was what I test drove and I know it, at least was supposed to get 40 mpg, although the automatic was a couple of miles less per gallon, as usual. I also really liked how configurable the interior space was, with the versatile folding and sliding front and rear seats, allowing you to make more room for cargo or passengers as your need warranted. Congrats on your purchase, it should be a great fun car!

[susanna]

48. The funniest part is that

Toyota learned their car-making craft from Ford. Look it up.

[Art_from_Ark]

128. Talking about yen manipulation...

1971-- Richard Nixon convinces Japan to accept a reevaluation of the yen at 260 per dollar, removing the peg of 360 per dollar that had been set by the United States a couple of decades earlier.

1985-- Ronald Reagan persuades Japan to accept a draconian reevaluation of the yen from 260 per dollar to about 160 per dollar.

1994-- Despite the 4-year-old Japanese recession, the yen reaches the unbelievable level of 78 per dollar, after having been 131 per dollar less than 3 years earlier. Japanese export companies are pinched by the higher yen, and many smaller exporters are forced out of business.

August 1998-- For part of the month, the yen is worth just a little more than half (in terms of dollars) of what it was during the 1994 peak.

March 2007-- The Japanese yen is essentially at the same level it was in July 2002.

[Horse with no Name]

32. I think the American pride thing ended inadvertently

when corporations showed they had no allegiance to workers who had been with them for many years yet laid them off anyway; or when corporations mismanaged their retirement money and left them penniless in their golden years; or when corporations showed no mercy at cutting salaries to make ends meet yet no restraints in granting golden parachutes.
I honestly don't think people did it maliciously. I think they did it for survival.
Their American jobs get outsourced, many have no choice but to buy cheap Chinese crap from Walmart, without realizing the impact they are having on the American economy.
We have to find a way to shut down NAFTA/CAFTA and start bringing jobs back home and I think someone like Sam Walton could motivate Americans to again BUY AMERICAN. Of course WalMart has long forsaken that campaign...but if someone else came along...and people could make the connection between outsourcing jobs and buying cheap Chinese crap and how it was relative to our economy, we might just make unions strong again in this country and bring back pride in America.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. Um...

you mean the foreign car companies that employ American workers?

As opposed to the American car companies that employ Mexican workers?

[susanna]

126. Read my post #71.

You might be surprised: the U.S. companies employ FAR more U.S. citizens than Mexicans or Canadians, based on facility counts alone.

on edit: proper labeling

[lakeguy]

41. my nissan was made in tennesee...

all my friends "american" cars were made somewhere else than america.

[susanna]

52. Keep one thing in mind.

The Japanese knew they could not import forever and get Americans to buy their products. Most of them, admittedly, began a PR campaign of building American factories so as to "blend in" to our culture. Funny part about it is, their profits still go back to Japan. Their country still does not allow American-built vehicles to be sold without insane tariffs. Yet we just open the doors and say, "sell 'em, boys!" No harm, no foul.

That should tell you something fundamental about our government and its overarching obsession with unfettered capitalism.

on edit: clarity

[pampango]

66. "Funny part about it is, their profits still go back to Japan."

Just like the profits, if there were any, of the Big Three would come to the US no matter where the cars were produced. Would you prefer that the Japanese car companies not build factories here so that every Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, etc would be imported? How would that help? Unless you support the "no trade, every country just buys what they produce" strategy. That would not lead to a very interdependent world, but rather one in which every country was an "island." (That might work for us, since we are big and relatively prosperous, but it would devastate countries without domestic markets big enough to justify factories just for the domestic market - most of the Third World.)

You may know more about tariffs on car imports into Japan, but I know that buy more jet planes from us than we do from them and they import large quantities of soy beans from us. I am sure there are others, but my point is that you don't have to have a balance of trade on each particular product.

[susanna]

67. Though I don't disagree with your logic

vis a vis "you don't have to have a balance of trade on each particular product," I think many foreign carmaker cheerleaders forget one simple fact: the domestic auto industry employs more than the foreign competitors, even those building here, do. And these are good-paying manufacturing jobs - some of the last of that type this country has left.

I'll just say this: if the domestic auto industry goes under, I do not think many otherwise intelligent people realize the economic devastation that will result. It isn't just the Big 2.5 themselves, but scores of suppliers that it takes to build the complex machinery that is an automobile. Check out what nationality of suppliers Toyota uses most vs. GM, Ford and Chrysler. Hint: lots of their supplier profits go back to Japan, too. But hey, that's capitalism - the perfect system until your job is the casualty.

Sorry. 6000 of my auto industry colleagues walked out the door for the last time in ONE day this past week, so I am pretty raw on this subject. I'll probably be a harpy for a while. :shrug:

[durtee librul]

111. Thank you Susanna...

You hit the nail squarely on the head. We can all sit and argue about gas prices till the cows come home and who builds a better car...but the bottom line should be whose country's economy will survive the 'blending' the best?

Let's just take a wild goose chase here for a moment. *jr does something stupid like royally pee off someone (say Japan) who has countless factories here. They decide to retaliate in the best way possible - they shut all thier plants and their banks. Now who's laughing?

I said the same thing about the banks years ago when the Japanese started buying all the American banks under the radar and no -one said boo. They came up with neat no fear names like Bank of America.

I want globalization, but with rules. That's all. Everyone is entitled to a piece of the pie....but let's keep it apple and american.

Solve this entire issue - develop a fuel from corn that we grow (course to be realistic, not many farms are individually owned anymore either - most of them are corporate owned and the families just 'get to stay on') and dump big oil and try and reclaim what's ours. (course then we'll be bitchin' about beef prices)

You don't see this type of corporate ownership in other countries and certainly not to the extent we have sold America and her jobs to the highest bidder.

It's really that simple people. We have all been had by our wonderful 'leaders' and it ain't gonna get any better for our kids and grandkids.

Saw a great commercial on global warming the other day....guy on a train track saying his life was just about over so global warming wouldn't affect him, he steps aside from a roaring train and in his shadow is a little kid. Great visual. Same thing applies to our country.

Take a REALLY worse case scenario and this country gets attacked - who is going to foot the bill? Who owns the banks? Who owns the factories? think the Toyota plant is going to let you build planes or whatever the flavor of the weapon is to fight them with?

All of a sudden it stops being about a Toyota factory in TN...that's all I am saying.

ON EDIT: If we think for one moment we are 'safe' here because 'we're fightin' them over there' guess again. Bush and co knew what they were doing YEARS ago and now all the pieces are falling nicely into place with hardly a whimper from the people in the US.

[susanna]

132. You're welcome, durtee librul.

Sorry - I just saw this post. I've been away a while. Had to cool down LOL.

I like your post, too. It's just hard to counteract multi-million dollar "we're so American" ad campaigns anymore, especially when they are so stealthy about it. :-(

It's funny. The unraveling of the domestic auto industry, in my mind, is summed up by the fact that they have no real long-term vision. They bow to the altar of short-term profits, and this is the result. That said, I see the same lack of long-term vision on the part of American consumers, buying "Made in (insert developing country here)". Why? "Because it's cheaper."

Consumers are doing the exact same thing we accuse our corporations of, in a nutshell, and it will sell us all out in the final analysis.

[jhasp]

156. Not exactly

Toyota stock is traded on the New York Stock Exchange and they pay dividends, so actually, a lot of their profits stay right here (their stock is also doing quite well).

[GainesT1958]

54. Why is it that...

Virtually anytime I hear of--or see--car broken down along a highway, it happens to be an American-made model, or at least a vehicle made by an American manufacturer?

Let's face it: Domestic manufacturers cannot, by and large (yes, with notable exceptions!) build a vehicle with the same quality as their Japanese counterparts. It's not the American worker, either; those employed by Japanese automakers in factories here build the same quality-level of vehicle as comparable models still made in Japan. Japanese manufacturers put efficiency over speed, and quality control over both. Don't believe me? I think the Ford Escape is a good compact SUV (and Ford's first hybrid model is in the Escape lineup, too). But when I close the doors of an Escape, they rattle like the screen door on our back porch; when I close the corresponding doors on my Honda CR-V, they close like a new refrigerator's doors. And my CR-V is four years old. AND has been the victim of two side-swipe hits from two reckless drivers, affecting doors on both sides.

I have sympathy for the auto workers in Sen. Stabenow's state, but not their bosses. If they built vehicles of high quality besides full-size pickups and full-size, gas-guzzling SUVS, perhaps Ford and GM wouldn't be hemoraging money right now, and having to lay off 100-200,000 workers. If I were a laid-off Ford or GM worker in need of a job, I'd happily go work for Honda or Toyota. They respect their workers as individuals, and those workers return the favor by building high-quality vehicles.

B-)

[talkinghead]

80. You are forgetting something.

First of all, this is preserving American jobs. Japan isn't bringing its own workers here too. This is good for our economy. Americans will have better access to high-quality automobiles and the money generated by sales will more than likely stay in the US where it will be invested. I think you are worried about the preservation of Big-Three union jobs.

[Downtown Hound]

81. It's a global economy now, friend.

Many Japanese cars are built right here in America, by American workers. Likewise, many American cars are built in Mexico, by Mexican workers.

As for the trouble that American car companies are having, they have no one to blame but themselves. They laid off many of their factory workers in the eighties and took their plants offshore, destroying the middle class and damaging people's ability to buy their product. Then they built crappy cars and gas guzzling monsters. They have eschewed fuel efficiency and basically told a sizeable portion of the American public that wants green and reliable cars to fuck off. After years of promising hybrids and not building them, Toyota came out with the Prius. And lo and behold, Americans bought them up like no tomorrow. This, after years of American auto execs telling us that they weren't profitable or cost effective, there was at one point a six month waiting list for them. The Americans on the other hand? They gave us Hummers and SUV's, killed the electric car program, and are only now starting to come out with hybrids. This really does not make me want me to buy their products.

If the only reason people have to buy an American car is patriotism, I'd say that's pretty pathetic. I'd say that pride in America isn't the only thing that's dead, but also American ability to compete in the marketplace with products that people actually want. I don't think that ability really is dead, but thanks to the leadership that the American auto makers have had over the last 25 years, it has surely taken a blow.

[ProudDad]

86. There are NO 100% American built cars

Don't blame us folks for having no real choice in the matter!

Blame the f*ckers who OWN the auto companies. Blame GM and Ford and Chrysler for making gas guzzling crap while the Japanese and Europeans (used to) make the cars that people really wanted and needed.

Now it's pretty blurred with Toyota making huge honker trucks and SUV's just like those idiots in Detroit do.

No real choice -- they're all mostly foreign built parts and foreign labor.

[kestrel91316]

94. Both of my American cars were pure, unmitigated pieces of

crap. So I finally bought a Japanese car, which is 18 years old and still doing fine.

If American car makers made QUALITY cars instead of cheaply-made showpieces maybe they wouldn't be in such trouble.

[Toots]

107. Pride in America yes, but American quality >>> come on

Have you driven an American car and compared it to a Japanese one of equal value? Americans get only the respect they deserve....

[driver8]

114. Maybe if Ford. GM. or Chrysler built anything worth a shit...

Americans wouldn't have to buy foreign cars.

I have driven Toyotas for 12 years with zero problems -- show me a Ford or GM product that can match that.

[susanna]

125. Uh - that's well-nigh impossible.

The domestics can't show you a product that does anything of the sort. You would have to buy it and drive it in a durability manner to get the same data you've gotten from the cars that you, uh, already bought and drove.

For example, from my own experience: we have a 13-year old Ford Ranger that has 160,000+ miles on it. Thing runs like a charm; no worries. Just saying.

[TriMetFan]

118. I bought an American Car, A Pontiac Vibe......

The Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix is built at the NUMMI plant, a joint GM-Toyota facility in Fremont, California. Americans built these cars and trucks. How much more American built can that get. My Vibe gives me 29/30 in the city and 40 on the highway. For an American car that is way damn good.

[hughee99]

137. The last time I bought a car based on "putting American first"...

my car was kind enough to roll over on me (thank you Ford Explorer), only later to send me recall notice after recall notice for all sorts of issues. I believe I got one for the tires, of course, and also one because they were recommending that I under inflate the tires (which made it slightly less likely that the car would roll over, fat lot of good that did), and another about a sway bar problem (which caused instability in turns IIRC), and I believe another about the computer and maybe 1 more about the electrical. After that, I decided that I'd have a more selfish mindset when I selected my next car. I'll make a point of buying American as long as it's not a product that's likely to kill me. Otherwise, American products get no special preferences in my book.

[tstan]

163. YEAH DEFINITELY

PRESERVE AMERICAN JOBS, SUPPORT TOYOTA, Nissan, and Honda. Since American companies have no loyalty to their country and send thousands of jobs constantly to places like Mexico and are always laying people off. Toyota is always talking about the opening of major new plants, it makes economic sense, they can ship products faster and cheaper if they are built here. Look at the percentage of the average new Ford GT 500 and GM Escalade and compare to Toyota Avalon, and Honda Accord, then tell me who supports the American work force. Since I am an International Business major and concentrate in Japanese I have seen that Japan has honor toward people, including employees and will treat them well. I unfortunately do not see the same thing in "American" Auto companies. And if Gross Domestic Product determines how rich a country is which it does, then you can realize that we get a count of GDP on products manufactured here so if Toyota Avalon sticker on window says 90% American Parts than 90% of that automobile counts toward our GDP not Japan. Thanks.

[anotherdrew]

6. so now the yen is also being 'manipulated' maybe we've been manipulating the dollar to be too high

but no, couldn't be that or anything, in America everything bad is ALWAYS someone else's fault

Howe about thanking them for funding our deficit spending? We'd be bankrupt long ago if asia wasn't literally pouring cash into our treasury bills. when will our half-retarded worthless so-called leaders face that fact?

[AndyA]

10. That's just another reason for buying American, and not supporting

foreign governments that could someday BE OUR ENEMY.

Remember Saddam Hussein? Who put him in power? And look what that little folly has cost us now.

Buy American, folks. Not perfect, but nothing is and you're at least not supporting some communist foreign government. (The Chinese are ready to drop a ton of new little shit boxes on the market any time now.)

[Smooth Operator]

11. we've had 2 Japanese cars

I had a 1991 Nissan Maxima. When I bought it in for an exhaust leak the dealer wanted $600 for the piece just in front of the catalytic converter. My wife had a 2000 Echo, when she needed brake work it ran $350 just for the front. It turned out that the front rotors were made of an alloy to cut down on the weight that couldn't be turned on a brake lathe so every time she went in for brake work it required replacement of both rotors. So whatever you may save on gas will more than be made up by expensive repairs.

on edit

Anyone ever notice that most of these car plants are down south where unions aren't exactly held in the highest regard? If Toyota had to pay their workers the same as GM and Ford I doubt they'd be making the same profits they are now.

[hughee99]

138. I agree about the expensive repairs...

but IIRC, Toyota workers are among the highest paid in the business. They are currently not basing their pay on the local "going rate" although the article I read suggested they were planning to begin doing that soon.

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070208/BU...

On edit, I think the link is dead now, but here's a link to the discussion at the time.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2722334

[Ghost Dog]

17. Uy uy uy.

Irrational Nationalism tends to lead, inexorably, to Intolerable Intolerant Fascism, man.

Take it easy, you hear? We hear and feel your pain. You're not the only ones suffering, some, around the world.

...And yes, I usually manage to keep my trigger-finger off the alert button, here in (relative) freedom-of-expression DU... :hi:

[high density]

70. Erm...

Do you know who is bringing those great Chinese cars to the market? DAIMLER CHRYSLER under the Dodge and Jeep brands.

[ProudDad]

89. There's American and then there's "American"

Buying from Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Borders and Safeway is "buying American". I won't spend a freakin' dime at any of these.

Buying from my local mom and pop book stores, local markets and farmers markets is where my money goes.

But, for some "necessities", buying local or buying "American" isn't an option.

Since there's NO 100% American motor vehicle, buying "American" is not an option.

[seasat]

91. The Yen manipulation thing is kind is weak

Japan is keeping the Yen lower versus the dollar by low central bank interest rates. Hey we do that. They also, as mentioned, purchase US treasury notes. If China and Japan didn't purchase these notes, two things would happen. First the dollar would shrink making imports more expensive and interest rates would increase. The interest rates of the treasury notes would have to rise since demand for them would be lower thus affecting other loan rates in the US. Manufaturers would be happy since they could compete better on the open market but US consumers would be hit with higher prices and higher interest rates. The best way to get this under control is to decrease the outstanding US debt by balancing the budget. However, that's "hard work" and Shrub Inc would have to take cuts in their pet wars for that to happen.

[amandabeech]

100. Many economists believe that most East Asian countries manipulate

their currencies in order to maintain a surplus of exports over imports. The Japanese have not in the past hidden their huge currency sales to keep the yen down.

I appreciate that other countries and their citizens keep buying those t-bills. I would prefer better jobs here, higher taxes and lower military expenditures, however, to the current situation which limits the ability of our government to act in what would otherwise be this country's best interests.

I don't relish being hooked to China or even Japan, for that matter. When George Washington warned against entangling foreign alliances, he could not even comprehend what "entangling" means today.

[Vinca]

14. I'm a Toyota loyalist - it wasn't always that way, but

when a brand new Ford pickup truck we bought needed all of a certain size screw tightened throughout the body and a new Pontiac stalled a half mile from the dealership and had to be towed back, we decided to try a Japanese car. They're attractive, reliable and will keep on going for as many miles as you want to put on them. If American auto makers had paid attention to what people want, they wouldn't be in such dire straits.

[joefree1]

15. Free market capitalism for the rich only?

If the American Auto Manufacturing monopoly only wants make bad products then I'll buy elsewhere. The corporatist only believe in hands off capitalism when it benefits them.

Toyota makes a better product. I'm buying a Tacoma Truck this year. Support quality and coporate responsibility.

Look at the Consumer Reports top ten auto here:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/top-picks-for-2007-4-07/overview/0704_top-picks-2007.htm

[BayCityProgressive]

18. Congress should butt out

Toyota makes decent cars and they are providing good paying jobs to Americans..unlike Chrysler and Delphi...

[Dr.Phool]

28. I just got that same issue of CR in the mail today.

On page 19 is a side article called "Global Game: What is an American Car?"

Under built in the US, every car listed is a Japanese car, except 2 Mercedes, 1 Saab, and a BMW. Total 44 imports. No "US" models.

Under built in Canada, 18 "US" models, and 7 imports.

Under built in Mexico, 13 "US" models, and 6 imports.

[susanna]

131. Did you read the whole article you're citing?

Found here:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/which-companies-make-the-best-cars/what-is-an-american-car/0407best_glo.htm?resultPageIndex=1&resultIndex=1&searchTerm="global%20game"

An important sentence maybe you did not see:

"Still, across their lineups, Rubenstein says, American companies build a lot more of their cars, and parts, domestically."

The graph you saw was somewhat confusing. What they are actually showing is 1) how many foreign companies' models are built in the U.S. and conversely, 2) in what foreign countries the domestic industry produces models; not, as you inferred, that American companies produce no vehicles in the U.S. (Which is why I posted the sentence above.)

Notice the headings in the graphs: for Canada and Mexico, there are "U.S. models" and "Imports," where in the U.S. graph, there is only "Imports." This tells me they were too lazy to do the research to show the multitude of domestic models built here. Typical CR shell game. They might as well just rename it "Go Toyota" magazine and be done with it.

[susanna]

127. Did you honestly say monopoly with a straight face? n/t

[NNguyenMD]

24. basic economics, when there is a demand for a product people will buy it

in this case good reliable cars that just happen to by built by a foreign company.

I don't care what under the table incentives Toyota gets from building a factory in the US, they make excellent and more importantly DESIREABLE cars, and they're built by Americans in America. From what I've heard on NPR, Toyota manufacturing jobs are also very well paying with excellent benefits.

I'm a small car owner myself, never owned anything larger than a full sized sedan, been an exclusive mid-size driver for the last 6 years.

I own a Saturn, it runs fine, and gets OK mileage. But it is nowhere near the constructive quality and mechanical reliability than the last 2 Corollas, 1 RAV4, and 1 Camry that my family and I drive regularly.

[bicentennial_baby]

85. Still counts in GDP though

:D

[gravity]

26. OMG they are bringing jobs to America

It's unAmerican :sarcasm:

[SOS]

112. They only care about corporate profits

The American CEO has to get his $80 million a year and his shareholders have to get 10% returns.
Global capitalism is great as long as it enriches only the American ruling class.
But if a Japanese company employs Americans in America it's unfair and manipulative.

Sure there will be new jobs in Mississippi, but what about the value of the GM CEO's stock options?
It's so unfair!

[raebrek]

30. Buy what you will.....it's a free country......n/t

[issac82_82]

31. Yeah that is pathetic

that Americans are now being employed by Japan!

[ProudDad]

90. Not as pathetic as the USA

being OWNED by the Saudi's, Japanese and Chinese...

[wittsend]

34. The UAW Backs the Democrats almost 100% Exclusive...

Reason enough for me to buy America's Big Three (plus I'm an Employee). I wish everyone on this Board would look at that fact. I've been on this board since early '01 and have always hated to see the Domestic Auto bashing that goes on. I myself am a 3rd Generation Big 3 auto worker and donate every month to the Union Political Action Comm. The UAW is one of the single largest donators to the Democratic Party. Please consider that. :)

[susanna]

53. We're getting lost in the shuffle,

Wittsend. I too am a 3rd-gen domestic auto company employee. I did a short stint with VW, but that was years ago.

The fact is, short-sightedness in this country is an absolute illness. People will not see it until it happens to them.

Best to you and yours. :-)

[MadHound]

64. So what, I'm supposed to buy a crappy American product,

One that is not fuel efficient, nor reliable, nor durable, simply to support the Unions in this country, which contrary to the romanticized popular believe, have become corrupt and cozy with management and government, growing ever further away from the workers that they're supposed to represent. Why should I put my hard earned money into a product that has a lifecycle designed to end at 120,000 repair filled miles when for an investment of $5000 more I can get a product that doubles that lifespan, with fewer trips to the repair shop?

If Detroit would build with quailty and durability in mind, I would buy Detroit products. But instead the Big Three have pioneered the advance into built in obselescence. I have bought foreign and domestic, and prefer the foreign cars. Though I must admit, the last domestic car that I bought, an '87 Chevy Nova, has lasted almost 300,000 miles. Of course it is a Toyota Camry with an American nameplate slapped on. But of the cars that are truly domestic products, none in the past twenty five years could hold a candle to their foreign rivals, except in the truck area perhaps.

Why should I be loyal to companies that are shipping their plants over the Mexican border or overseas, leaving those "3rd generation Big Three auto workers" out in the cold and out of luck? Meanwhile, the foreign brands are bringing plants and jobs into America:shrug:

But again, for me, it comes down to getting the most for my hard earned dollar. I expect my cars to last, and sadly American cars don't. Whereas I have regularly pulled down 200,000+ miles on the foreign cars that I've owned, the true domestics that I've owned and witnessed over the past quarter century can barely make it to 120,000 miles, perhaps 150,000 before they kick the bucket. I also expect my cars to be economical, and again, the domestic makes fail miserably. Parts break down, wear out, with much higher frequency than their foreign counterparts. And if we're talking about fuel economy, well foreign makes generally have the domestics beat hands down.

Detroit needs to start building quality products, it's that simple. Stop building the sloppy engines with the high tolerances. Use quality parts instead of trying to save a few pennies on gaskets(Pintos, Crown Vics). Make your vehicles economical in terms of both gas mileage and cost of operation. Build them to last at least 200,000 miles. Then you will get myself, and many, many like me, back as customers. But as long as the Big Three continue to make the same ol', same ol' crap, I will continue to buy a foreign made auto. I simply can't afford to do otherwise.

[boilerbabe]

161. You had the "Toyolet"!

That is what they were supposedly going to call the joint venture between Toyota and Chevrolet. My parents had an '87 Nova, too. They loaned it to me for a few months in '97. It is probably still running somewhere....I named it the "Snail" (prepare for hills in advance!)

Happy Motoring!

[BrightKnight]

142. A lage investment in automotive engineering programs

would help. It would result in better and more efficient cars for everyone. Japan is doing this. It is like farm subsidies. It would give American automakers and the UAW an edge.

I support the UAW. Most people here want to support the UAW.

[mitchleary]

36. Imagine where GM

would be if they would have kept the EV1 and just kept making it better? They would own the car market.

[DKRC]

79. I would love to buy an EV1 - I will never buy a Hummer. nt

[jmowreader]

113. Oh jeeze, not this shit again!

The EV1 was a $40,000-plus 2-seat car with no trunk that would go a hundred miles before you had to charge it for eight hours, and it would only go THAT far if you lived in one of about nine states.

The demand for $40,000 cars of any stripe is too small for them to "own" the car market.

[Nihil]

151. Yep, you had to go and post that shit again!

:P

The EV1 was never going to own the car market.
I sort of guessed that from the use of the number "1" ...

What it would have done, had it been allowed to progress, was introduce
the electric vehicle to the market far earlier in the sequence.

Anyway, it's all water under the bridge, CO2 in the air,
bribes paid & cashed, ...

[Dumak]

37. Can't rely on patriotism

We can't rely on patriotism to fix the economic problems in this country. Our workers are not on an even playing field with those of other countries. Other countries more heavily subsidize their people with things like universal health care, housing cost controls, and a highly progressive tax structure. And we allow the upper-management of our corporations to get away with ridiculously-high salaries that eventually doom their companies. How about we tax corporations according to their disparity of salaries? Starting with Reagan there has been a war against our middle-class, and we have to work at direct remedies for that rather than tell people to buy inferior American products.

[OhioChick]

39. This Toyota?

Thursday, 02/08/07

Toyota sweats U.S. labor costs; leaked memo calls for holding down wage growth
Asian automaker frets over pay for its workers as it expands in U.S.

http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070208/BUSINESS01/70208019

[susanna]

55. Thank you, OhioChick.

:yourock:

I referenced you upthread, post 50. :-)

[JCMach1]

57. and don't forget recent quality problems at Toyota... Toyota and US companies

are on the verge of getting gobsmacked by the Chinese.

From what I have seen year to year... Chery continues to take the best of Japanese quality management and combine it with Chinese cheap labour. Within 5 years, Toyota and everyone else will be under SERIOUS pressure from Chinese automakers. Except they won't be Chinese! Chrysler and other have already made major moves for strategic agreements and branding of their products in the U.S.

I have seen the future here in the UAE... It has a very small pricetag and comes from China...

Toyota will also be a dinosaur shortly unless it gets the first reliable electric models out first.

[fujiyama]

42. I like my state's senators

but they really have to realize that US automakers have to make MAJOR changes in the ways they go about things and that the government can not and should not keep bailing out their asses.

As we all know, much of the American cars are manufactured elsewhere - does it really matter which major fatcat makes millions, whether the guy is in Japan or the US? Also we know that the Japanese fatcat isn't making nearly as much as the American fatcat...and their company is actually making a profit!

One of the major concerns is certainly quality. Toyota has a manufacturing process in place that creates higher quality cars. Their manufacturing is also more efficient. AND they are making cars that are fuel efficient. Not to mention that several of their cars are engineered AND manufactured here - and they pay well and provide great benefits. Their CEO doesn't make nearly as much as American CEOs and he is held ACCOUNTABLE by his government when they have quality issues.

Meanwhile, I've heard that Ford is finding out that certain divisions in engineering and design that have been outsourced is costing too much in India. They're deciding to try China next.

No one should be happy about the state of the US automakers. It's unfortunate. These jobs have provided the backbone of the economy for many parts of the nation for several decades. But excess greed, laziness in design (in the '70s and today), an inability to make those at the top accountable when they have done NOTHING well for the company, and VERY SHORT TERM THINKING have led to the situation they are in.

[seasat]

43. In other words, Ford and GM want protection.

I have no problem buying a "foreign" made vehicle versus a "US" made vehicle. Corporations are multinational. The only thing that really separates Ford and GM from Toyota is that they are based out of the US. They buy and manufacture parts overseas and some of their cars may actually have more non-US production than the Toyota vehicles. There's a trade law that requires foreign manufacturers once they reach a certain volume to have a certain amount of US made parts. There's no such requirement for GM and Ford. Ford recently announced that they were increasing their purchase of parts made in China (LINK). Our '98 Ford Taurus has a german designed V6 with some parts assembled in Mexico and some assembled in Canada. I used to only buy only US autos but since the "US" autos are no longer made in the US, I buy what I consider to be the best vehicle I can get for the money. My last purchase was a Toyota.

[goforit]

78. Bingo!!!.....And I'll be damned to bail out one penny to GM/Ford!!!!

[Toucano]

59. If 46% of Toyotas sold come from Japan,

I wonder what percentage of GM, Chrysler and Fords U.S. sales were products made in Mexico and Canada?

More than half of Toyota's products sold here are made here. Can the so-called Big Three make the same claim?

[susanna]

71. True, that.

A country with with wide open borders, no tariffs on imports? The Japanese will sell everything they possibly can here. They would be stupid not to. So it wouldn't surprise me that we buy half of all their metal sold, not at all.

From my experience at both Ford and GM, the majority of their assembly plants for domestic brands are located in the U.S.

GM's media locator says:

Mexico (4 plants)
http://www.gm.com/company/corp_info/global_operations/north_america/mexi.html

Canada (6 plants)
http://www.gm.com/company/corp_info/global_operations/north_america/cana.html

United States (gets its own page; too many to list!):
http://www.gmdynamic.com/company/gmability/environment/plants/facility_db/

Ford's information can be located here, but by rough count I totaled:
http://media.ford.com/facilities/

Mexico 4 facilities
Canada 5 facilities
United States 28 facilities (live), 3 facilities (to idle 2007/8), 2 facilities (idled 2005/6)

Well, I don't have time to find Chrysler, I have guests coming over. This should certainly give folks an idea of the economic impact the Big 2.5 has on both the state/national levels.

[Kolesar]

61. When Toy puts a $1Billion toward transit , stopping sprawl,and real climate solutions,I will believe

...in them. Until such time, they are just another company exploiting the consumers in the richest country in the world producing unsustainable products. Bring it on, Toyota!

[Porcupine]

63. Anybody who produced the Pontiac Aztec.....

a car so ugly that pictures just cannot do it justice; has no right to complain.


Detroit produces crap that falls apart way too soon. In my town you can't give away a used Ford F-150 pickup. You also can't find a used Toyota or Nissan pickup for sale for less than twice what that Ford will cost you for the same model year.

Several guys in town drive around 25 year old Toyota land cruiser pick-ups. Consider the rarity of that truck and then it's clear how much better it was built than anything produced by detroit ever. It's not just the quality of the new cars but the durability of the used cars that gets Toyota sales. Product quality over the long haul counts.

I think the union workers of Detroit should consider tarring and feathering their CEO's. Clearly these noble souls have perfected the art of advancing their salary packages to the total exclusion of all other goals.

GM had the technology to produce a series hybrid vehicle in 1969. If they had spent any money advancing and producing that technology there would be no Toyota in the US today. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=83804&mesg_id=83804

I can't shed a tear over the US auto industry.

[CANDO]

83. Should have known this would turn into a food fight!

But I just love my '99 Buick Regal. Best car I've ever owned. Bought it new and paid for and should provide me with years of dependable transportation. And who says there aren't any stylish american made cars? Buick's cars are very stylish and sexy. LaCross and Lucerne are great looking cars. I'd say Buick puts out quite a nice family car. I know it will be my first choice come time for a new car.

[CRF450]

120. Sadly, Asian car makers dont make a good performance car I like

I cant really see myself driving a fwd 4 banger.

[SahaleArm]

124. A lot of US-assembled 'foreign' cars are made with non-union labor...

After hearing the replies in favor of globalization on this thread I hope none of you complain about outsourcing again.

Not many Hondas, Toyotas, or Nissans on this list.

http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/cartruck2006.cfm">Consumer Buying Guide - 2006 Cars and Trucks

UAW CARS:

Buick Lucerne
Cadillac CTS
Cadillac DTS
Cadillac STS
Cadillac XLR
Chevrolet Cobalt
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Malibu
Chevrolet Malibu Maxx
Chrysler Sebring
Dodge Caliber
Dodge Neon
Dodge Stratus
Dodge Viper
Ford Focus
Ford Five Hundred
Ford Freestyle
Ford GT
Ford Mustang
Ford Taurus
Lincoln LS
Lincoln Town Car
Mazda 6
Mercury Montego
Mitsubishi Eclipse
Mitsibushi Galant
Pontiac G6
Pontiac Solstice
Pontiac Vibe
Saturn ION
Saturn Sky
Toyota Corolla *

UAW PICKUPS:

Chevrolet Silverado *
Chevrolet Colorado
Chevrolet SSR
Dodge Ram *
Dodge Dakota
Ford F-Series *
Ford Ranger
GMC Sierra *
GMC Canyon
Isuzu I-series
Lincoln Mark LT
Mazda B-series
Mitsubishi Raider
Toyota Tacoma *

UAW SUVs:

Cadillac Escalade *
Cadillac SRX
Chevrolet Suburban *
Chevrolet Tahoe *
Chevrolet TrailBlazer EXT
Dodge Durango
Ford Escape/Escape Hybrid
Ford Excursion
Ford Expedition
Ford Explorer
Ford Explorer Sport Trac
GMC Yukon XL *
GMC Envoy XL/Envoy EXT
GMC Yukon/Denali *
Hummer H1 Alpha
Hummer H2
Hummer H3
Isuzu Ascender EXT (7 passenger)
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Jeep Liberty
Jeep Wrangler
Jeep Commander
Lincoln Aviator
Lincoln Navigator
Mazda Tribute
Mercury Mountaineer
Mercury Mariner/Mariner Hybrid
Mitsubishi Endeavor
Saturn VUE

UAW VANS:

Buick Terraza
Chevrolet Express
Chevrolet Uplander
Chrysler Town & Country
Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan
Ford E-series
GMC Savana
Pontiac Montana
Saturn Relay

CAW VEHICLES:

Buick Lacrosse
Chevrolet Equinox
Chevrolet Impala
Chevrolet Monte Carlo
Chevrolet Silverado *
Chrysler 300
Chrysler Pacifica
Chrysler Town & Country
Dodge Charger
Dodge Magnum
Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan
Ford Crown Victoria
Ford Freestar
GMC Sierra*
Mercury Grand Marquis
Mercury Monterey
Pontiac Grand Prix
Pontiac Torrent

IUE-CWA VEHICLES:

Buick Rainier
Chevrolet TrailBlazer
GMC Envoy
Isuzu Ascender
SAAB 9-7x

[liberalpragmatist]

129. I drive a GM car...

... but I'm happy to buy a foreign-made car next time around. I'm sorry if some people see as some heartless, capitalist pig, but I buy the best product for the cheapest value. I'm not going to buy "American" just because it's American-owned; they need an incentive to produce quality products and that incentive is that if they don't produce a good product, I will buy elsewhere.

On the larger issue of trade and jobs, I'm all for a vastly stronger social safety net (universal health care, college tuition assistance, job training programs, more generous unemployment benefits) and I strongly support firm labor and environmental standards (making it easier for unions to organize in developing countries). But I part waters from a lot of DU'ers on the issue of "American" vs. foreign jobs. Economics and trade doesn't have to be a zero-sum game and I don't think any job is inherently any one country's; should Japanese companies only produce cars in Japan? So long as the workers are paid and treated well, I don't care where a product is made or a service handled.

[Smooth Operator]

130. well it seems that Progressives

or so called Progressives only care about unionism if it involves Walmart or any other nonunion company but if you're a UAW worker TFBFY.

[orleans]

157. are you saying toyota auto workers are not in a union???

"Buoyed by record profits and booming U.S. sales, Toyota Motor Corp. announced plans Tuesday to build a $1.3-billion assembly plant in northern Mississippi to make Highlander SUVs.

"Toyota, expected to pass General Motors Corp. this year as the world's largest automaker, has been rapidly expanding its North American manufacturing base.

"The Mississippi plant will be Toyota's eighth North American assembly plant. Toyota opened a Tundra plant in Texas last year, a Camry plant will open this year in Indiana and a RAV4 plant is due to start production next year in Ontario, Canada.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070228/BUSINESS01/702280410/-1/PRINT

and because no union they are a bad company?
or are you saying we (the "so called progressives") shouldn't look at pesky things like cafe standards and quality when purchasing--that we should only buy union (regardless of how inferior the product in comparrison to other products on the market?)

"Toyota even loosely pegs its American workers' wages to the equivalent GM worker ($26.50 an hour versus $27.13), and never lays off anyone. That has kept the United Auto Workers union out of Toyota's American factories, except one in California it operates jointly with GM. "
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7693097/site/newsweek/

[ileus]

133. I wouldn't hit a goat in the ass with an American car.

An American SUV maybe, an American Truck sure but an American car no way. Old GM tricked me in 2001 with the quality Alero and won't be doing it again anytime soon. I've have 3 American Pickups, 80,92 &95 with few problems. 2 Suv's 96 blazer and 97 Durango. Other than fuel mileage there was no problems (except for the 80 GMC typical rust bucket)

I've owned 3 American Cars all POS. 87 dodge shadow, 84 Chevette, and 2001 Alero, America got it's last chance from me car wise.

My savings account is always going to be the bottom line. I rank anything I buy like this 1. Reliability 2. Mileage 3. Taxes (directely related to mileage also)

[pinniped]

158. Our 1987 Chrysler was set to die at 100,000, and it didn't disappoint.

I remember the 87 Shadow, it looked like a shorter LeBaron. Did your Shadow even make it to 100,000?

[orleans]

150. one of the kindest things congress could do would be to raise

the cafe standards for these stupid american car companies

if they were better on mpg then maybe some of us liberals--who could give a rats ass about supporting the oil companies, and who want to be eco friendly, would consider buying ford, gm, etc

i own a toyota--my first "non american" car. it is wonderful.

the american auto industry only has itself to thank for their crappy bottom line.

[susanna]

155. You hit one of my hot buttons...in a good way.

I have always said protecting the domestics from increases in CAFE was enabling really, really bad behavior. In essence, we drove them out of innovation into wastefulness. And look at the result.

So, I hear you and I second your thoughts. Well said.