Bill Gates asks US Senate panel to ease skilled-worker visas

[OhioChick]

Last Update: 12:43 PM ET Mar 7, 2007

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- U.S. immigration policy is driving away the world's "best and brightest" precisely when they are needed most, Microsoft Corp. Chairman Bill Gates will testify Wednesday before a Senate panel.

"I personally witness the ill effects of these policies on an almost daily basis at Microsoft," Gates said in remarks prepared for delivery before the U.S. Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pension Committee.

The committee is holding a hearing on U.S. competitiveness.

In a statement announcing Gates would testify, the committee noted that chairman Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., and committee ranking Republican Mike Enzi, R-Wyo., are working on legislation that would address Gates's concerns.

Gates singled out for criticism the nation's H1-B visa program for college educated, non-immigrant workers.

Gates said that the number of H1-B visas granted runs out faster and faster each year.
For fiscal year 2008, H-1Bs are expected to run out next month, the first month that it is possible to apply for them, Gates said.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/bill-gates-asks-us-senate/story.aspx?guid=%7BD9325BC4-93ED-4D26-8A86-9ED51116E84A%7D

:grr:

[Vincardog]

1. Too bad Bill. Train Americans.

[saigon68]

85. Bill wants to get richer

He needs more money, he's afraid he might starve

[rfranklin]

2. Hey Bill, why don't you relocate to India and you can have all...

the cheap labor you want. Or you could go fuck yourself, you greedy little asshole. Thank you.

[ProudDad]

79. He already has

http://www.microsoft.com/india/indiadev/

http://company.monsterindia.com/microsoftbuin/

http://inhome.rediff.com/money/2006/oct/12spec.htm

among others. Just Google "Microsoft India"

[fooj]

3. Oh no! I just heard Lou Dobb's head explode! LOL!

[OhioChick]

4. As did mine. n/t

[raccoon]

5. Why does he hate working Americans? nt

[Double T]

6. Just another corporate traitor

[aquart]

7. Go to hell, Bill.

And then check your bank account.

[Joe Chi Minh]

8. Instead of bequeathing his questionably-amassed gains to good and probably not so good

causes when he dies, Gates should concentrate on employing Americans - and doing so on the basis of an appropriate, fifties-type level of remuneration. That would be the way to please the American people who really count, and have his name blessed by them.

[hedgehog]

9. I've seen employers complaining for 30 years that we aren't graduating

enough engineers, and for 30 years I've seen engineers desperate to get jobs. What's wrong with this picture?

[bleedingheart]

27. and it is because employers want people who will work for jackshit

it is the same as it was when Upton Sinclair wrote the Jungle.

I graduated in 1991 with an engineering degree, I was lucky to find a job during the Bush I Recession. However many of my classmates ended up working in non-engineering fields because they couldn't find a job either locally or nationally.

My nephew is at Carnegie Mellon University...he has classmates who are looking and aren't having any luck.

[talkinghead]

28. Have you looked at what foreign skilled workers make?

Maybe it isn't that they will work for peanuts but that they are just generally better engineers. I seriously doubt that they will come here and drop a few grand on an education and then work for "jack shit," as you say.

[OhioChick]

29. "Generally Better Engineers?"

What has been engineered, produced/manufactured and finally exported to the world that is considered high tech in the field of engineering from India?

[talkinghead]

30. I'm not sure.

But I think the long-time protectionists policies that India had for so long have had a large impact on their production and innovation. Luckily they began several years ago to liberalize their trade policies and end harmful tariffs and subsidies. But ask yourself what has been engineered, produced/manufactured and finally exported from American that was developed by engineers from India. Does it make sense for American companies to purchase the labor of foreign engineers because they are supposedly cheap and risk developing inferior products or does it make more sense for American companies to hire Indians because the are typically seen as better engineers? And you forget - or don't seem to care - that we all benefit from the innovation of foreign engineers. Despite the fact that we have had a large influx of foreign engineers our economy has been doing quite well. And if anyone brings up the latest stock market problems and tries to blame that on foreign engineers then you have no idea about economics.

[ChromeFoundry]

33. Nothing is exported from the US except

our fighter jets, nukes and jobs...

But I cannot wait for Sanjay to deliver them succulent Mangoes! mmm mmm mmm.

"does it make more sense for American companies to hire Indians because the are typically seen as better engineers?" If you are going to make a statement like that, better have some facts to back it up! The fact is is that they are a cheap commodity and US corporations will use them up until they find cheaper ones in some straw hut in a different land.

[OhioChick]

35. I'll give you a "fact"

about those "mangoes." :rofl:

Uncle Sam to miss Indian mangoes again

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Uncle_Sam_to_miss_Indian_mangoes_again/articleshow/1727109.cms

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

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[ChromeFoundry]

39. tell you what...

go work at that local grocery store..
purchase ALL your groceries from them, in a deficit of your weekly pay...
see where you are in a few months.

oh wait... how outdated of me to think like that! you'll just pull the money out of your ass to pay off your debt. go be a tool someplace else

[talkinghead]

42. You are thinking about this the wrong way.

You are thinking about the trade deficit like a bank account deficit and that is entirely incorrect. This isn't the same as a budget deficit or an overdrawn checking account. The opposite of a trade deficit is an accounts surplus. My grocery store has a trade deficit with me but they also have an accounts surplus because they never give me any money yet I'm always paying them. If you check, investment in the US is pretty healthy right now. There have also been some correlations done by economists that show during times of economic growth, the trade deficit is relatively large and during stagnation or recessions, the trade deficit actually shrinks. We benefit from imports and it is unlikely that anyone would be able to live as well as they do without them. Go tell some of your city's poor that sorry, you will no longer be able to pay lower prices for these goods because we are going to restrict imports until we run a dubious trade surplus. Bastiat had the perfect reductio ad absurdum for this: if you want a trade surplus, load up your exports on a ship, record them in your trade log, and them go sink the ship. You'll notice that you will then have a trade surplus because you never had to import anything.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChromeFoundry]

46. Uh, yeah.. I believe it is! n/t

[ChromeFoundry]

44. They don't make the food

they pay the supplier of the goods. Be the store for a minute and have the supplier be China. Now layoff all the store employees, because they are too expensive. How long is that store going to remain in business with all it's rotting crap on the shelves and no one able to buy it because there is no one there to sell it?

Yeah, that sounds healthy!

[talkinghead]

48. You are not making sense with this.

Is China supplying my grocery store? If so them I'm probably getting cheaper goods and I don't have to layoff anyone. If I'm competing with China and I can't hang then yes I do go out of business. But that is not necessarily a bad thing. If I can't compete and I have to close down then I free up resources for someone who can better employ those resources. Sometimes, a business closing down is the sign of a healthy market. But again, look at the manufacturing data. Look at profits on the census data pages for some of the industries that are "harmed" by China. While they are having to layoff some workers their output is up and their profits are up. This is good for American consumers.

[OhioChick]

49. "Sometimes, a business closing down is the sign of a healthy market."

:wtf:

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OhioChick]

51. "watch the quality of the goods decline."

Ever been to Walmart?

[talkinghead]

54. Every Sunday

[ryanmuegge]

74. I don't necessarily agree with you that a trade deficit is good

but I like someone who presents challenging ideas and presents a different point of view; it takes me out of my intellectual comfort zone.

[pokercat999]

100. You buy new undies every week?

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nick303]

87. Economics 101

Weeding out inefficiencies, basically

[ChromeFoundry]

52. well, i'm not here to waste my time trying educate you in reality...

can't teach a brick too much.
but when you get laid off, be sure to tell yourself how wonderful the economy is doing today!

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

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[ChromeFoundry]

56. When it's "your" job

the state of the economy does not matter all that much.. it's called self preservation. good luck.

[ProudDad]

81. Your basic fallacy

is not including the COSTS to the environment of this wonderful system of "cheap goods" for Americans thanks to slave labor elsewhere. Not to mention the inhumanity built into the "system".

Anyhoo, this whole house of cards is floating on a sea of cheap petroleum and will soon collapse.

[ProudDad]

80. Don't forget

our wars (phony 'war on terror', bogus 'war on drugs' and the ever popular war in Iraq) and our unparalleled counter-revolutionary death squad technology...

[pokercat999]

101. Please don't forget the "WAR" on poverty that morphed

into the war ON the poor.

[pampango]

103. US is world's second largest exporter in 2006, behind Germany,

and ahead of China and India. Since these latter countries are much larger than ours, on a per capita basis our exports are many times the exports of these countries.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2078rank.html

[bleedingheart]

45. I have worked with foreign workers and I have found it is a mixed bag

just like working with US educated workers.

1. I worked for one company where the Chinese chemist had his passport taken by the plant manager. The guy was afraid of his own shadow. I can tell you they weren't paying him well although he was a very bright guy.

2. I have also worked with a great number of foreign workers that left me quite unimpressed. It may be me, but I have found that some folks may have a degree but they are unable to think critically...in many cases they are "trained to task" but not able to think outside the box.

Overall, foreign workers aren't any dumber, smarter or better...but they will work for less than an US engineer because they want to get their foot in the door.

[ChromeFoundry]

47. I agree and have had similar experiences. n/t

[Megahurtz]

64. Bullshit. n/t

[koopie57]

105. I'm curious where you were educated

and what you do for work? And a few grand for an education? A few grand?

You have a special kind of nerve.

[Nevernose]

38. Per capita we train TWICE AS MANY engineers as India/China

But there's 300 million of us, and 2000 million of them ... well, the math should be obvious.

[ryanmuegge]

76. No kidding. I love it when people throw those stupid statistics like that out with NO context

Like Thomas Friedman...that's his favorite statistic. What an idiot.

[AlCzervik]

10. "Gates concern"??? Where is his concern for us workers?

FU BIll Gates.

[MGD]

11. Go peddle your software in India if you want Indians to manufacture it Gates.

I'm sure there are plenty of US software designers that won't miss your sorry ass for a second.

[antigop]

12. Selling us out again, eh, Ted Kennedy?

>>
In a statement announcing Gates would testify, the committee noted that chairman Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., and committee ranking Republican Mike Enzi, R-Wyo., are working on legislation that would address Gates's concerns.
>>

Selling us out,Ted -- just like you did on the pension bill?

We'll be watching this one, Ted.

[sadiesworld]

69. He's getting worse all the time.

[VegasWolf]

13. What the matter Bill? Is Microsoft too poor to be able to hire laid off American engineers? nt

[HughBeaumont]

14. It's like he has blinders on . . .

. . . that only allow him to see "PROGRAMMERS WHO WORK FOR LESS THAN $20-25K/YR!" Meanwhile, the same Americans he tells "Go into engineering and math and science! Don't afraid to be competitive!" are being priced out of the process he, along with assorted free-trade Repukes and neolibs, helps dictate. We're not dealing with a KNOWLEDGE deficit, geeksmack. We're dealing with a currency inequality. Pay Americans what you pay your overseas people and they'd be living in cardboard boxes and eating once a day.

[ProudDad]

82. You hit the nail on the head!!!

Gates would be HAPPY to hire American programmers who'd work 80 hours a week for 25K/year...

That's why he wants H-1B's -- they HAVE to work those hours for that money or else he'll ship 'em right back home...

[ChromeFoundry]

15. Bill, go pound sand up your ass...

you no-talent sellout.

[talkinghead]

31. That's pretty bold

to call one of the greatest entrepreneurs of our time a "no-talent sell out."

[ChromeFoundry]

32. not bold at all...

Name one technology that HE has created or improved upon to bring him any where near "greatness".

Where does his title of "chief software architect" play into his greatness?

If you measure "greatness" by wealth, and how many companies you gut in order to produce the largest anti-fair practice, monopolizing corporation in the history of mankind... maybe you are on the wrong board.

[talkinghead]

34. I think Bill Gates is an innovator

and I think to imply that we would have to same technologies today without him is absurd. I think Microsoft was generally a very efficient company and if the government would have left him alone the market would have adjusted, as it is doing today with the competition that Microsoft is facing from Apple. I think too many times a company that was efficient and generally good at business gets unfairly attacked as a monopoly, even without blatantly illegal business practices or seeking government favors (which cause monopolies in the first place). When a good company emerges due to successful and legal business practices it is best to allow them to continue to operate and eventually another firm will emerge to challenge them. Ever shopped at an A&P? During its prime this company was accused of being a monopoly and now it doesn't even exist.

[ChromeFoundry]

37. dude, get your facts straight!

our technologies would be stronger without Microsoft modifying Standards to suit its own needs, making other Standards based applications incompatible with Microsoft's technologies. Sure, you'll say that they should be allowed to make their own standards up out of the blue... Think about that the next time you board a airplane and it's a flip of a coin if the fuel will be compatible. Microsoft and fair-practice... Why do you think MS Office performs better than other WPs on a Microsoft platform... MS Office was separate from the OS group, so they would not have an unfair advantage. See what money can buy? Microsoft will cry about lost market share to OpenOffice.org stating that they should not be allowed to read and write Word Docs... But it's OK for Office 2007 to generate an output of an Adobe PDF document. You are freakin absurd to think you know anything about anything, if you buy into those right-wing talking points that you spew!

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OhioChick]

41. "And by the way all CEO's and execs. aren't evil bastards."

CEO's and Execs. are running the country/government now. Why is it that "Billionaire Gates" was the only one testifying today?

[candice]

67. Innovator of what?

I've used both Macs and PCs. The innovation seems to be in copying what Apple has developed.

[ProudDad]

83. WOW, are you on the wrong board!

You should peddle that Freidmanesque nonsense here: http://www.economist.com/blogs/

I've been involved with m$ since the beginning. Right from the beginning neither Gates nor Allen wrote MSDOS (which made them their first billions due to a serious miscalculation by IBM) -- they OPTIONED IT from the actual author for $50K.

It was Gate's connections through his father (a NYC Corporate Lawyer) that got IBM to even give them a look and it was Gary Kildall's misfortune to not get the deal even though he had the superior operating system. (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_43/b3905109_mz063.htm) I know, I worked with both of those operating systems.

If by "efficient company" you mean a rapacious outfit that lies, cheats and steals software and when it can't do that uses FUD tactics (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt for the non-techie among you), well then I agree, they're a wonderfully "efficient company".

They should have been broken up YEARS ago. It was the bushies that gave them a pass and dropped the Justice Dept. proceedings against them just as they were bearing fruit.

On a personal note, they made the last 15 years of my career a living hell with their SHITTY operating systems... I've finally retired from Alpha testing their crap, thank goodness.

[HughBeaumont]

91. But people HAVE to go on believing Bill was a self-made billionaire!

The only thing he can be credited for is making planned obsolescence a rule, not an exception. I mean, having the same OS for years and the same programming platform for years would probably only make him worth eight figures instead of a nice healthy mid-11-figure man!

[Occulus]

16. Response: pirate Vista.

edit: I am in no way advocating a criminal act. I am merely positing one possible response.

Another possible (and LEGAL) response: forego Vista entirely. Go linux or (if you can afford it) Mac.

[ChromeFoundry]

21. ReactOS is like Windows but FREE

It is a completely rewritten, binary compatible down to the drivers, operating system that is compatible with windows applications. It's open-source and free!

http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

17. the prevailing wage

for programmers in the Redmond, WA, area is $66,747. H-1B regulations require companies to pay at least the prevailing wage in the geographic area. Since I know very well the people who work in immigration at Microsoft, I can tell you that this is what they must pay at a minimum and that most of their programmers make much more than that.

As an immigration professional, I agree with Bill Gates. The H-1B visas run out very quickly each fiscal year. They are not only for IT personnel, but also for the finance, creative arts, architecture, design and other fields.

The H-1B program is NOT the problem; the problem is the L visa. That visa category has no restrictions in numbers and no requirement for prevailing wages or benefits. Thus, it is more ripe for abuse.

FYI, new H-1B visa petitions (that is, for those who have never had the H-1B or for those who had an H-1B one or more years ago) can begin to be filed six months prior to the beginning of Fiscal Year 2008 (which is October 1, 2007). This means that these petitions can be filed on April 1 (this year is April 2, due to the weekend).

It is expected that the numerical limit (or 'cap') will be reached very quickly, well before this year's crop of college graduates hits the market. At my company, a very large corporation (I__M), there are ads that have been running for months looking for qualified IT personnel. Recruiting for these positions is a problem. At the same time, hiring a foreign worker in H-1B status is not always an economical solution.

The fees for filing H-1B petitions are quite high.

[FormerDem06]

20. Meanwhile, I can introduce you to 10 american programmers who need a job

and want a mere 80K for their 10 years of experience.

I cannot find a US programmer under the age of 26 that has any relevant experience. I interviewed 32 and hired 4 (I needed 10). They can't get the experience because they are being replaced by outsourcing and H1-B's who have no family here and are willing to work 70 hours a week for that prevailing wage you mentioned. The message is, work overtime (lots of it) and for less. Not a good deal if you ask me, but a guy from India over here alone for 4-5 years will put in almost double time hours and then go home pretty rich. Where do the US workers go for the same deal? The UK?

The banks are really good at laying off a 15 year experienced US engineer who is an architect making around 100K, and replacing him with an H1B who they put in a junior level position making 65K, and then force him to do the same work. Exploitation really does stink.


It's really making me sad. My company makes 450K off of me each year, they told me they think my salary is expensive at less that 1/4 that. Where does the greed end I mean really?

[primavera]

22. Are they willing to move where the jobs are?

To get an H-1B, the employer has to first obtain the approval of the Department of Labor, which monitors the availability of qualified US workers within the specific area the employer is trying to find workers. There may be unemployed programmers in, say, California, but if the jobs are in Redmond, WA and they're not interested in moving to Redmond, Microsoft is still going to have a hard time finding enough US workers to fill all of their positions and the Department of Labor will continue to approve Labor Condition Applications for employers seeking H-1B workers. I think this is a common misperception: there may indeed be a great many unemployed programmers in this country capable of doing the jobs being offered to H-1B workers, but not all of those qualified US workers are willing to uproot themselves and their families and move to where the jobs may be. Immigrants are, by definition, migratory, so they have a certain natural advantage in being able to go wherever there's work. Is that anyone's fault?

[ChromeFoundry]

24. If the current push is to have these same jobs outsourced...

then why is it so impossible to believe that these unemployed California workers are unable to telecommute to their jobs? I do a ton of work out of my home office in the evenings and weekends. My companies clients are dispersed throughout the US, and I have absolutely no trouble remoting into their servers and networks to perform troubleshooting tasks, updates and data correction.

I don't think that anyone in their right mind would pickup and move their family to Redmond for a position at Microsoft, where the figure-head of the company devalues their intelligence to congress on a routine basis. If it was not a company that had no vested interest in the country that bent antitrust rulings over backwards to appease the richest man in the world... I'd go for it in a heartbeat!

[primavera]

57. That pretty much makes my point

Your starting assumption is that jobs should come to wherever you are, that you should be allowed to telecommute from anywhere you want to live. Personally, I agree with you - my own job could be just as easily done from a coffeeshop with a wi-fi connection as it can be done from my office, but that's a separate issue. The fact is, right or wrong, less than 5% of the jobs in this country are presently set up to accommodate telecommuting. I certainly hope that businesses will see the light and increase that percentage, but for the time being, the overwheliming majority of jobs require you to show up for work at a specific location. You just stated that no one in their right mind would uproot their families to move to Redmond, yet you wonder why Microsoft looks to temporary foreign workers to fill vacancies they haven't been able to fill locally. Doesn't sound like much of a mystery to me.

[ChromeFoundry]

75. You didn't complete my statement...

no one in their right mind would uproot their families to move to Redmond ... "for a position at Microsoft, where the figure-head of the company devalues their intelligence to congress on a routine basis."

I would most certainly consider this move for a company that values reinvestment in the United States and the people that fought and died for freedoms which this company built it's foundation upon, enabling it to enhance their profitability.

[Le Taz Hot]

94. My husband's one of them!

Used to make 6 figures. After his company lost it's funding, he looked for 14 months for a job, sending out probably 25-30 resumes a day. Finally, after all that, he obtained employment locally for $18.00 an hour.

We USED to be middle class. Somebody wanna run that "can't find enough skilled professionals in America" crap again? And I know literally DOZENS of professionals in the same boat. Me? With 35 years experience in the corporate world, I gave up. I'm female and 51. NOBODY will hire me. I'm making jewelry out of my home hoping to sell enough pieces to pay my phone bill.

:grr:

[MilesColtrane]

116. "We USED to be middle class...Used to make 6 figures."

Actually a six figure income put you in about the top %15 of American households in terms of income distribution.
An $18.00 dollar per hour salary truly puts you in the middle 20% of what other Americans are now earning.

Welcome to the middle class.

[bleedingheart]

26. Every company I have ever worked in has forbidden employees

from speaking about wages.

In fact, most companies will fire you if you start sharing salary information.

My second job out of college, I discovered that for the same position there were people making 17,500 and others with the same years of service making $36,000 (this was back in the early 90's). Prevailing wage my foot.

Most companies have wage brackets and the funny part is that some brackets overlap.

So an entry level programming position may have a bracket of $42,000 - 80,000 and it all depends upon what the company can negotiate with the person when they start. The key is to get hired at the mid to high end of the bracket because once that figure is reached...all you are ever going to see are cost of living increases if you are lucky.

A second level programming position may have a $55,000 - $105,000 bracket...once again..depends on what you get hired in at...however someone who has been working for the company for a while might find themselves getting elevated to a secondary level but not really see any difference in wages.

Wage disparity is a key reason why people job hop. Talented people figure out pretty quickly if they are getting screwed so they will hop if they can and they know with each hop to aim for a better salary and that is only natural.

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. In 1999, 67% of americans had jobs.

Today, it's around 61%.

Bill Gates is full of shit. It's easier to hire foreign workers because we don't educate americans, and Bill doesn't want to pay 'em.

I have an idea Bill, put on classes to train the skills you need. The quick changes in the field make it expensive to invest in a person, better to have them spend 4 years (on their own dime) acquiring a skill that has a shelf-life of only 6 years.

And the prevailing wage is a red herring. If it weren't for the wage suppression effect of Gates' annual whine-fest to congress "I neeeeed more foreign engineers" the wages would increase. Preventing this wage inflation is what his pleas are all about.

[Missy Vixen]

110. We live ten miles east of Redmond, WA

>for programmers in the Redmond, WA, area is $66,747.<

I realize that there are people here who will laugh at the following, but it is true. It's possible to live on $66K in Redmond, WA, but you won't be living at a standard you'd want. You will not be able to purchase a home unless you have a spouse that makes a significant salary. The median home price in Redmond, WA, is well over $400,000 now. A one-bedroom apartment in Redmond rents in excess of $1200 per month. If you are married (and your wife can't work in the United States due to not having a green card -- we've met plenty whose spouses worked at MSFT and had the problem,) you're either moving a significant distance away (over an hour's drive each way daily,) from the campus to even find housing or you're packing at least two families into a dwelling.

Please don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, because we owned a townhouse for several years in Redmond. The development's been taken over by Microsoft employees on visas renting from owners.

My husband has accepted a position with another software company after going up to the seventh interview with Microsoft. He has twenty years' experience in the software industry. He brought a superior skill set. They offered $25,000 less than what he was making. Microsoft is still doing the same thing -- offering much less than market rate salaries, hiring those from other countries when there are qualified workers here. The stock doesn't make up for it anymore.

For a company that probably has a billion dollars in the bank, Bill Gates' arguments don't wash anymore.

Julie

[OhioChick]

18. Lou Dobbs Poll:

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight/

Do you agree with Bill Gates that the U.S. should allow an unlimited number of cheap, foreign tech workers into this country?

Yes 3% 52 votes

No 97% 1558 votes
Total: 1610 votes

[Marie26]

61. Why would they be cheap?

Educated professionals charge big bucks, immigrant or no. Lou Dobbs is a moron.

[OhioChick]

72. That's What Corporations Would Like You to Believe...

Bill Gates Lies to Congress about Microsoft's H-1B Wages

SACRAMENTO March 19, 2006 - Bill Gates lied to the U.S. Congress last week. He misrepresented that Microsoft’s H-1b jobs for new graduates with no experience “start at about $100,000 per year.” In fact in FY 2006 only 12.4% of Microsoft’s LCAs for H-1bs paid $100k or more, and these were for directors, managers, and legal counsel rather than for new graduates.

Bill is gambling that Congress will not bother to take 5 minutes and check the facts. It’s probably a safe gamble.

The current H-1B cap is 85,000 per year – arguably exceeding the rate of job creation. What limit does Bill Gates call for? He wants to flood in an unlimited number of H-1B workers: http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-5687039.html (Could we at least compromise and cap it at one million per year?)

The Programmers Guild has documented the facts of how H-1b visas are actually used by industry on its website: H-1B visas are used in San Francisco predominately for underpaid, averaged skilled positions for which employers should have no trouble finding U.S. candidates:

www.programmersguild.org/sfh1b/

More: http://www.programmersguild.org/docs/bill_gates_lies_about_h1b_wages.html

[w4rma]

19. Why? Bill Gates thinks he isn't making enough money yet? So he's going to canabalize his employees

for the extra income?

[Greyhound]

106. He/M$ always has, only the methods used changed over the years.

Back in the day they used primarily "contractors", then the market heated up and "contractors" began to command premium prices, so M$ switched to "temporary" workers.

They lost a lawsuit brought by a group of employees that had been "temporary" (euphemism for half pay, no benefits, etc.) for an average of over eight years, with some having worked at the campus, every day, for over fifteen years.

Couldn't have that, so they switched to various visa workers, but that was tricky because there were qualifications that had to be met in order to bring them in, so the ITAA was created by several IT corporations be an industry advocate. They proceeded to skew and outright make up numbers showing a huge "shortage" of IT workers, that's when the H-1(b) and L-1 visas became so popular.

That's where we are today, if M$ really wanted to hire IT professionals, in the Redmond area, they only have to look as far as the local $tarbuck$, and shopping malls, they're working there now.

[EnviroBat]

23. F.U. Gates...

I pirated your XP operating system to run all kinds of open-source applications, and next week I'm buying an iMAC as my personal kick in the crotch to you and your shitty organization...

[ChromeFoundry]

25. a shame you didn't choose Linux

or another open-source OS to run your open-source applications on. They would then have a stable platform to rely on! :)

[lovuian]

58. This man is a Billionaire and he wants MORE money

:argh: Karma I await Karma

[Javaman]

59. Man, did this thread bring out the freeps or what?? nt

[Marie26]

60. Dumb

We need visas for unskilled workers to stop illegal immigration.

[lakemonster11]

62. You are all misinterpreting this.

A large percentage of the work force at Microsoft is foreign-born. They make exactly the same salaries as the American employees, live in the same neighborhoods, and send their kids to the same schools. Most of them become Americans and all of their kids are Americans.

There is no financial incentive for Microsoft to hire foreigners except for the ability to draw from a larger pool of applicants.

If you're xenophobic and completely anti-immigration then be against this, but this is not about out-sourcing.

[primavera]

71. Well, there is some incentive, but it's not what most people think

A huge amount of Microsoft's income comes not from sales of its products in the US, but from what they call "localized" versions of Windows products around the world. To that end, they produce versions of Windows and Word and Excel and all of their other applications in Arabic and in Chinese and in Greek and in Russian and in Urdu and so on and so on, in virtually every language spoken by more than a dozen people. To modify their products to work in all of these languages and alphabets, Microsoft hires a great many "Software Localization Engineers" who have to be not only competent software engineers, but also native speakers of the languages. A lot of the H-1Bs Microsoft hires fall into this category - I know, I used to prepare H-1Bs for Microsoft. There's nothing particularly sinister about it, it's just that there aren't many American software engineers who are also native speakers of Estonian or Tagalog or whatever.

[lumberjack_jeff]

77. "larger pool of applicants" = lower wages

What's so mysterious?

A foreign-born roofer makes the same salary as an american roofer too. Are you suggesting that the foreign workers aren't suppressing the prevailing roofer wage?

If this simple logic escapes americans, perhaps Bill has a point about our education.

[lakemonster11]

99. Sorry, but the idea that Microsoft is

supressing the prevailing developer salary is just silly.

My friends who work at Microsoft make considerably more than anyone else my age that I know, and most of the older folks I know who work there are millionaires several times over. They also have great benefits.

And no, I'm not suggesting that foreign workers aren't suppressing the prevailing roofer wage. The entire scope of my post was programmers at Microsoft.

[Shallah Kali]

86. I think the shame lies in that the US education system isn't educating enough people here for those

jobs

[Porcupine]

93. Why go $100K into debt only to find the jobs gone....

to foriegn workers when you get out of school. It's been clear for years that US corperations are not willing to train employees or hire native born employees with the training required.

There are students who are constantly re-educating themselves for some elusive tech job only to find that when they complete the training that employers are asking for another 2 years of training before they will hire.

That hamster wheel doesn't fly when people doing 1/3 the work with business or law degrees make money right out of school. American colleges are turning out less comp sci grads because less comp sci grads are making good money.

[gravity]

98. Schools are suppose to train employees

The failure is with the education system.

Companies want the best and the brightest regardless of where they are from. If there is a shortage of highly skilled employees in our country, then people would want to hire from somewhere else.

[Greyhound]

107. You are ignoring the history of how the current situation came to be.

Throughout its history, M$ has used every means possible, both legal and illegal, to suppress wages and overcome employment regulations.

[Megahurtz]

63. Fuck You Bill Gates!

:mad:

[FyurFly]

88. I agree 100%

If Bill wanted to help his country he would fund inter-city educational programs to help poor folks get these nice jobs. Bill wants what is best for Micro$ofts profit margin.

Fuck Bill Gates!

[candice]

66. Gut our public education

...and then entice people whose education was paid for by their "third-world" countries to leave their homes and come here to make up for our deficient schools.

Personally, I'd be more impressed if this were from a representative of company known for innovation rather than an innovation-killing monopoly speaking.

[primavera]

68. Now there's a point I can get behind

With the quality of education in this country deteriorating and the skyrocketing tuition rates putting it beyond the reach of so many people, we are at a competitive disadvantage relative to modern enlightened countries which support education. And in that comparison, we're the ones screwing it up by refusing to support education; civilized countries shouldn't be blamed because they do what we ought to be doing.

[ProudDad]

84. I'll agree with you there

It started in California with ronny ray-gun.

He began the destruction of the most accessible and finest system of higher education in the country. His worthy successors deukmajian, wilson, davis and the groppensteroidenfuhrer have continued that destruction.

If they put 1/2 the money they've pissed away in Iraq toward seeding the education system in this country, this thread would have not had to be started.

[HughBeaumont]

92. War is profitable. Helping people isn't.

Can that be our country's new motto? I mean, the people that run this land have only been following it for the past 44 years or so.

[sadiesworld]

70. I guess wages must be off the charts with the supply of

labor drying up. :rofl:

[NotGivingUp]

73. I've disliked Bill Gates for quite a few years. This is a good reason to continue doing so.

[ProudDad]

78. Hey, Bill

there's a whole SHIT LOAD of good programmers here in Silicon Valley.

They got pushed out of their jobs by folks on H-1B visas....


On Edit:

I've been in the computer business for over 42 years. I know a LOT about this subject and, unfortunately, a LOT about m$ (microsoft)

Gates, as usual, has his head so far up his ass he's licking his tonsils.

The REAL problem with m$ is that they're succumbing to the same disease that every large corporation falls prey to -- systemic incompetence. In m$ case, they began as the company with the inferior operating system and have never caught up. They wouldn't know what to do with good programmers other than grind them down until they match the mediocrity of the rest of the crew.

They could fill the company town of Redmond with 100,000 H-1B's and still couldn't program their way out of a paper bag...

[JCMach1]

89. I agree and disagree with Mr. Gates

I understand his impetus... Supply and Demand... The world has a GLUT of engineers. Asia continues to spew out new engineers at an alarming rate. For most engineering jobs in the UAE, engineers make the same (and in some cases less) than your average hotel worker. This is not uncommon across Asia.

In all seriousness, that is not not sustainable. Will American engineers work for the same salary as someone is getting down at the Holiday Inn?

If we want to move from a capitalist society, hey let's talk. However, if we are going to remain a capitalist one, wages for American engineers must come down for the U.S. to stay competitive.

Most likely, silicon valley and other companies will slowly get their way over time. For workers, that's a huge loss.

[ChromeFoundry]

95. And how motivating would that make it to earn a degree?

And better on the budget.. if i didn't have to pay back student loans... I could go work at WalMart and earn twice the salary of a doctor!

:sarcasm:

Sorry, but I think that makes absolutely no sense at all.

[Contrite]

90. That's it. I'm switching to an Apple. Go suck an egg, Gates. n/t

[Unvanguard]

96. What's the alternative?

Bar people for the abominable crime of not being born here?

Perhaps they should have kept blacks from entering the labor market, too - white workers complained then also.

I see no reason why the state should make some people more privileged than others because they were born in the richest country in the world instead of elsewhere.

The problem is capitalism. Not foreigners.

[w4rma]

97. We go back to the old system that worked for hundreds of years before the "free trade" BS.

[varun]

102. If you dont allow the foreign skilled workers here

The work will go to them in foreign countries.

Which one is better?

At least they pay taxes here.

[ChromeFoundry]

111. stop buying their products and the work won't go anywhere

invest your dollars back in to this nations labor workforce and companies will get the picture after just one quarter of falling profits. Don't fall into the belief that "foreign skilled workers" are smarter and more motivated than US counterparts; that is what the companies are using to get you buy-in to still buy their products without either of you feeling guilty at the end of the day when your neighbor loses his job and forecloses on his house.

There are a lot of free operating systems that will run on your computer... they are developed by people that have a passion for computing and not driven by greed. If enough people walk out of best buy after asking, "do you have a similar product, but one made in the USA?" maybe you see Sunday ads that list products with a "Made in the USA" label next to it. Or, you can just sit back and think that your next purchase doesn't make that much of a difference anyways.

[koopie57]

104. greedy bastard

He probably has enough money to fund the program himself. Just think how many Americans he could put through college and they work for him for 10 years. Bill Gates begging for money!

[area51]

108. Bill Gates needs to go fsck himself.

There are lots of unemployed tech workers ever since GW Hoover cratered the economy in 2001. Plenty of home talent for that bastard to hire. Bill Gates is anti-American, and it's no surprise that he's doing more to help other countries' healthcare, when we have people dying here every day because we don't have single-payer, universal healthcare like the civilized countries have. :grr:

[kineneb]

112. agree- reformat, reload...w/Linux

and tell Billy Boy to take long walk off short pier. He is whining because the rest of the world is not beholden to MS-based operating systems. In fact, most of the rest of the world (that uses computers) is not running the latest version of Windows. They can't afford either the hardware to run it or the cost of the OS and programs that run on it.

Viva Linux!

[OhioChick]

113. Well, They're Certainly Not Running Legitimate Versions....

Microsoft's Ballmer To India: Cut Piracy, Create 50,000 Jobs

http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2007/02/microsofts_ball.html

[kineneb]

115. Intelectual Property Rights...we don't need no stinking I.P.R.

uh, yup. Betting Vista has already been hacked.

[DiverDave]

109. So, the 16 grand I spent on computer school

is just money wasted.
Lets do the checklist, shall we?
1) I get hurt, at work, thats 1 strike, because you know I'm just a drone to be thrown away when I cant work any longer...check.
2) Decide that a change would be less harmful to my injury (as my doctors advised)...check.
3) Do what all the repukes say to do...pull myself up by getting computer training...check.
4) Study my ass off, do well in school, and finish near the top of my class...check.
5) Work contract jobs for 2 years, taking low paying jobs in the hopes of getting hired permenantly...check.
6) Get so broke paying student loans back (along with trying to keep a family of 4 afloat) that I go back to driving a truck...check.

Yeah, thanks bill, and all the bottom line assholes like you.
I am back to doing what my doctors told me NOT to do.
Oh, and I'm still paying my student loans...

[leftofthedial]

114. capitalist motherfucker