Two years to change EU light bulbs (27 countries ban incandescent bulbs)

[stonebone]

Ordinary light bulbs are to be banned across the European Union within two years in the fight against climate change.

The 490 million citizens of the 27 member states will be expected to switch to energy-efficient bulbs after a summit of EU leaders yesterday told the European Commission to "rapidly submit proposals" to that effect.

Environmentalists said the change would save the public up to £5.4 billion a year in fuel bills and also about 20 million tonnes of carbon emissions every year.

The energy that would be saved in the UK is equivalent to one medium-sized power station.

The announcement came as EU leaders agreed to cut greenhouse gas emissions by 20 per cent by 2020 compared with 1990 levels and pledged to increase this to 30 per cent if other developed countries followed suit.



http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=380442007

[MADem]

1. The comment section of that piece points out some obvious challenges to overcome

Dimmer switches won't work.

They take a long time to get bright; some aren't ever as bright as a reading lamp bulb.

Landfill/disposal issues.

I'm sure all can be overcome eventuallly.

I use them almost exclusively, but I had an old 22 year old cat that I kept an incandescent bulb in a lamp for--it served as a 'warmer' for the old girl.

[Solo_in_MD]

2. Minor point - There are certain CF bulbs that can be dimmed with special dimmers

but they are not cheap and not yet in large supply.

[sutz12]

3. That's the only reason I don't favor a total ban...

I use them myself. I have been phasing them in as other bulbs go out.

They also aren't optimal in places where the lights go on and off a lot. They use a lot of energy in the startup mode.

Minor technical issues, mostly.

[Tesha]

33. It's only an urban legend that they use a lot of energy to start.

In fact, while they're warming up to full brightness, they draw
proportionally *LESS* energy than they do at full brightness.

Tesha

[Codeine]

35. There was a recent Mythbusters episode

that disproved that old myth about high power draw on start-up quite conclusively. I was surprised, as I'd always been led to believe as you did.

[daleo]

4. Mine brighten up in no time

I just bought a bunch though, so they may be an improved design.

[MADem]

30. Mine take a minute or so. It's not the end of the world, but it isn't instantaneous light.

The newer ones come up to speed faster than the old ones. The old ones took a good five minutes.

I've been using them for a long while--I still have a few that are about ten years old! Those weren't cheap, either!

[Tesha]

60. I *THINK* I've seen a correlation...

I *THINK* I've seen a correlation between the diameter
of the arc tube versus its length and the speed with which
the lamps brighten. Among the half-dozen or so designs of
CFLs that I've tried out, the one's with the arc tubes
that are both skinny and long are the ones that seem to
take the longest to brighten up.

The ones that seem to have relatively fatter, shorter
arc tubes are faster to light, seemingly reaching
usable brightness instantly and full brightness
within a few seconds.

Meanwhile, one way we worked around this problem of
slow CFL startup was with the downlight over the sink
in our kitchen. It has five individual lamp holders so
we fitted an ordinary 25W reflector lamp to the central
lamp holder and fitted 7W CFL reflector lamps to the
outer four lamp holders. That way, we get 25W of
instant-on incandescent light followed later by 28W
of efficient CFL lighting, assuming we leave the
lamp switched on more than a half-minute or so.
That is, for a "waste" of 18 watts, we get instant-on
operation. And because these are shrouded reflector
lamps, you really don't see the lamps themselves
so the difference in color temperature between the
CFLs and the incandescent lamp isn't at all objectionable.

Tesha

[slampoet]

18. Use LED light bulbs.

At a cost of less than 9 dollars and dropping you can get a bright led light bulb with a constant life of 10 years and possibly over 40 years of life. Also you can dim with a regular dimmer. You can color balance the light spectrum with different led blends. They use less energy than incandescent and fluorescent. Also they don't appear as pulse strobes to people with vision differences like fluorescents.

[Xithras]

29. But they're not unidirectional yet.

The biggest problem wit LED's is that they throw directional light. This works well for things like recessed lights, but will dramatically reduce visible light when used in freestanding lamps and other fixtures. I've seen ONE LED design that used an "LED's On A Stick" configuration to throw a decent omnidirectional pattern, but it was $30. For one bulb. And it wasn't even full spectrum.

As to their dimming, I strongly suggest you look that up. LED's can be dimmed, but they're not designed to be. Dimming them can reduce their lives to a few short years.

LED's have some uses, and if research continues they may be viable replacements for the general use bulb in a few more years, but they're still not very useful for those of us worried about things like room ambiance, color accuracy, etc. CFL's were out a long time before they conquered those concerns, and LED's face the same challenge.

[MADem]

31. Well, those are a nonstarter then, eh?

But for accent lighting, or enough light to move about a darkened room or hallway, they might do the trick....

[slampoet]

64. Actually most LED's now come with diffusers those also adjust the spectrum slightlyand cost pennies.

And as for color balance, why is everyone acting like the bulb that is on in their bathroom has to be the same bulb as everywhere else.

If you need color balance have a special bulb for that One Picasso you have in the living room.

Why is everyone who comments on these threads acting like they work for GE and are only allowed to be one brand of bulbs the rest of your life.

No Ones car uses a single incandescent bulb at all yet nobody has ever complained about the color balance of their halogen headlight.



Oh, and the work you are looking for is Omnidirectional. LED's are already unidirectional with actually helps keep light from leaking to where is doesn't need to be.

We could probably see the stars at light if we used more unidirectional light.


Frankly I don't get the directional light problem. All it means is that dark colors are never coming back as wallpaper. Who cares? Brown was never the new black anyways.

[geomon666]

5. We desperately need to invest in LED technology.

If you really want to get rid of waste and become even efficient.

[Betty]

6. I have almost every light in my house

now fitted with the spiral bulbs, I guess they are flourescent. They work fine although it's true, not so great with a dimmer. Still, I am glad I have them. Supposedly each bulb saves you quite a bit of money over the life of the bulb.

[Hekate]

7. I tried them in my house several years ago and had to go back to incandescent bulbs

I turn off lights as I leave rooms -- they don't seem to like being turned off and on "too often" but how often is too often? In any case, these expensive gadgets quit on me at a great rate.

I have ceiling fixtures in the bedrooms for which the coiled bulbs were too large -- couldn't get the glass covers back on, so there the exposed bulbs were, looking quite tacky.

And then there's the kitchen fixtures and porch lamp, which enclose their light bulbs, which apparently overheats them, which melted part of one of the sockets, which made it smoke... Good thing we were home.

Oh, and the bathroom fixtures are made for those round decorative bulbs, so they are completely explosed to view....

In theory I support a changeover, I really do. In practice, it was a costly experiment in a 45 year old house.

If a law is passed here making the changeover mandatory, I hope it comes with funds to help people like me have the necessary rewiring done.

Hekate

[LiberalFighter]

10. They should not be mandatory for existing homes

If homes are remodeled maybe. In new homes it would be more practicle and less expensive to implement.

[IChing]

14. There are many bulbs they make now that can be at least energy star compliant

That fit into the lighting applications you describe. There has been breakthroughs.
Yes, the lighting may not be the same as your old bulb, but you still can at least try to do your part.
Contact your energy company to see if you can get discounts.


to find bulbs link here:
http://www.environmentaldefense.org/page.cfm?tagID=632&campaign=mts&source=searchg_200701

California: the energy miser?

California on a mission of conservation. And today the state uses less energy per capita than any other state in the country, defying the international image of American energy gluttony. Since 1974, California has held its per-capita energy consumption essentially constant, while energy use per person for the United States overall has jumped 50 percent.

California has managed that feat through a mixture of mandates, regulations and high prices. The state has been able to cut greenhouse-gas emissions, keep utility companies happy and maintain economic growth. Now California is pushing further in its effort to cut automobile pollution, spur use of solar energy and cap greenhouse gases.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x86958


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003609253_california09.html

[Hekate]

16. As a concerned Californian I do my bit in many ways. I was just sorry about the bulbs on the market

Eventually there may be a fit with my older home, but in the meantime I haven't budgeted for the expense of hiring an electrician to retrofit everything.

Hekate

[sass29429]

22. Length of life

I too found that they have extremely short lifes if used in on and off applications. It took many years but I finally got most of my family to get in the habit of turning lights off when not needed.

I have yet to have one of these "new" energy saving flourescents last more than about 2 years in a bedroom, kitchen or living/dining room application. The only light that lasted was the hall light and that was left on only for the dogs and the kids to find their ways to the dog door or bathroom. I even decided that I could live with the tacky appearance in some of the fixtures

[superconnected]

26. I've had a few burn out but so far most of mine are 3 yrs old.

The two that burned out were in the same socket in the same lamp. They each burned out right away. I don't use that lamp now just becaues I don't feel like changing that last dead bulb.

The main light in my bedroom stays on 16 hour a day - even while I'm at work, for the cats. It's a very bright 240 equiv watt energysaver bulb and it's about 3 years old, but all of my bulbs are energy savers.

I got mine for about $1 each since I bought them on sale. So I think I got my moneys worth. Regular light bulbs were always burning out. These ones aren't and I kind of wonder if they'll make it 5 years the way I keep the lights on all the time when I'm home.

[Lorien]

50. No problems in my 1925 home

and much of it is original. Not all the bulbs available are oversized-many are now the same size as a standard bulb. Of course there are many fixtures which won't take a standard incandescent bulb either (like a chandelier) so we'll have to wait for replacements for those. But for those that CAN handle the available fluorescent bulbs-well, hey, saving the planet is worth a lot more than being annoyed by the look of what's lighting your home, IMHO.

[MADem]

61. They've gotten MUCH better in recent years. And they make a mini bulb now that will work

with those glass covers. And they also make a covered bulb that is completely round, and opaque--I use that over the kitchen table. I've had smartasses remark how much "better" the "regular" light is over the kitchen table (when it's a fluorescent bulb!!!).

For your porch, they make an oblong bulb that might be right for that fixture--I think it is called a post bulb, but not positive.

You might want to, if you happen to spot one of those mini-bulbs, pick one up and give it a try in the overhead fixture. If it fits, you can get a few more. They're much cheaper nowadays, too.

I know what you are dealing with, though--our home is pushing 100! It's not the most up-to-date place in terms of the electrical wiring.

[youngdem]

8. I build homes...There are TONS of applications that they are not practical for

This is gonna take time....There are HUNDREDS of applications that would not be appropriate for the current generation of CFs.

Accent lighting, art lighting, in-appliance lighting, refrigerator lights, dimmers, most chandeliers, almost every exterior lighting application I can think of, spot lighting, driveway and step lighting, security lighting, emergency fixtures, exit lamps, recessed spots, low voltage fixtures, and on and on and on.

This is gonna piss a LOT of people off away from green if some try to push for this in an inflexible manner. Plus, the quality of light on these CF's is SHIT...SHIT. And I have put the really expensive soft light bulbs in someone's house and they still removed them and had me return them because they gave off a horrid quality of light.

I'm all for making them tax free and encouraging use, but damn, we are really gonna lose some folks if we try to push this on Americans.

[DemBones DemBones]

11. Wow. Are they good for any lighting uses?

And do you know if they are the same as the trademarked OTT-LITE or the faux ott-lites, i.e. "daylight" lamps? I find OTT-LITEs very good for reading, sewing, etc. The lamps and the bulbs are very expensive. I've not any trouble but was reading the other day some complaints about bulbs that burned out after a couple of weeks when they're supposed to last 10,000 hours.

[youngdem]

13. They are good for some fixtures where utility light is needed

They work fine for deep recessed fixtures in hallways, patios, etc. They are fine for closet lighting, pantries, and some lamps where the shade doesn't rest on the bulb.

The really expensive better quality lite CF's got the same complaint as the regular ones for three times the price. Plus, they are ugly bulbs that you can't have visible like a smooth surface bulb can, and the CF's in an enclosed bulb are too dim or diffuse for most applications.

Don't get me wrong, there are many applications (especially in offices and commercial) where they will save many Kw Hours. But for residential, they are ugly, harsh and really inappropriate for most uses I can think of.

[DemBones DemBones]

17. Thanks for all the information.

You've been very helpful. :hippie:

[youngdem]

23. Very nice chatting with you.

Hope you can come down to New Orleans one day soon...We are doing great. The crowds are back, the attractions are 99% open, and the city is cleaner than it has ever been (in the central areas). Outlying areas still look like Hiroshima, but they too are slowly coming back.

Have a great weekend.

[Canuckistanian]

27. I have about 50 CF bulbs in my household now

Now, I don't know about the availability of specialty bulbs in the US, but I have many different kinds of bulbs and they're all working fine. And I can get them at ANY hardware store in my area.

I have the "Fat Albert" large-globe bulbs in the bathroom (saving me about 280 Watts).

I have the "trilight" dimming types for the bedroom lamps.

I have the narrow "chandelier" types in my ceiling fans.

I have floodlights and spotlights for outside.

I have the mini bulbs in my enclosed glass fixtures.

And this year, we switched to all-LED Christmas lighting.

So I really don't know where you get this "inappropriate for most uses" statement.

[Jax]

65. Agree with you here

We have almost as many in or home but not as quite as many as you Canuckistanian. Good on ya! Hopefully we Will be better in the coming months.

Have no idea where the "inappropriate for most uses" comes from, I am in Washington State.

[ileus]

58. Closets and Hallways....LOL

[Tesha]

34. Curious; my family and my neighbor's family use them outdoors.

They start down to 0° F -- Even here in New Hampshire , it
hadly ever gets that cold.

They use them in the lanterns outside their garage and front
door. We haven't gone that far yet but use them (in an "R40"
form factor) for several outdoor floodlights.

Tesha

[MADem]

62. We do too--no problems. NT

[slampoet]

67. Again why is a smart contractor like you pretending that they don't know about other bulbs?

You should by now know that there are halogen bulbs for some of the uses that you mentioned and also LED bulbs?

[DemBones DemBones]

9. Fluorescent light bulbs can trigger

"flares" in lupus patients so I hope that's been taken into consideration. Sunlight does the same thing in regards to lupus, which is far more common than most people realize (I mean lupus, of course, not sunlight, which everyone knows is common.)

I don't know about the new bulbs, don't know if anyone knows as yet.

[Lurking Dem]

12. I can't be under fluorescents with my lupus.

I'm not going to be able to go anywhere soon without a burka.

What they should be mandating is R&D into LED and other alternatives. What they are mandating now will make me a prisoner in my own home.

[DemBones DemBones]

19. I have not been able to

determine if it or sunlight affects me, but I avoid them as much as possible. The burka is an idea. . .

Do you find that most people are basically clueless about lupus?

[Lurking Dem]

45. Yes.

Sadly, that includes many in the medical community.

I actually get lesions sitting under fluorescents, then the swelling, fog, and nausea set in. Even with sunscreen on. I finally bought one of those UV monitor things (clip on) but haven't tried it out yet.

Sunlight is considerably worse. I avoid it like the plague and always wear sunscreen. Even under my clothes.

I can do, maybe, a few hours under fluorescents with sunscreen. Sunlight is measured in minutes with sunscreen.

[DemBones DemBones]

21. I have not been able to

determine if it or sunlight affects me, but I avoid them as much as possible. The burka is an idea. . .

Do you find that most people are basically clueless about lupus?

[slackmaster]

55. Too bad

Your personal problem is vastly outweighed by impending destruction of the entire planet.

(This post is sarcastic BTW.)

[Lurking Dem]

15. What are the museums going to do?

[Tesha]

40. Use Metal Halide lighting like so many of them are already doing? (NT)

[Lurking Dem]

46. Is that available for home use?

[Tesha]

48. Some fixtures are, but they're not common.

> Is that available for home use?

Some fixtures are, but they're not common; you can't just
walk into Home Despot and walk out with a nice Metal
Halide fixture for indoor use. Real full-range
lighting stores can offer you a few choices but a
commercial electrical supply store may have more
because they tend to be far more common in commercial
lighting.

Advantages:

They offer a Color-Rendering Index (CRI) that's almost
as good as Halogen, offer the same great beam control
as Halogen, and offer four or five times the efficiency
and five to ten times the lamp life. (They're not as
efficient as fluorescent lighting, though.)

Disadvantages:

One disadvantage is the price: the fixtures and the
replacement lamps are more expensive than Halogen.

One serious disadvantage: They take as much as five
minutes to warm up (reach full brightness) and most
of them can't immediately relight after a power
failure (even a brief one); they take some cool-down
time and then the full re-light time, so they're not
suitable for emergency/exit lighting purposes.

Tesha

[Lurking Dem]

53. Do you know what the UV rating is?

I assume it is low if they're using them in museums. I know my halogens are UV coated.

I only have 4 ceiling cans in my living room and in order to get enough lumens with LED I have to buy bulbs that are almost $100 a pop.

[Tesha]

56. Metal Halide lamps use an ordinary borosilicate outer bulb.

While Metal Halide lamps use a quartz arc tube internally,
they have an ordinary borosilicate glass outer bulb. So
while the internal mechanisms produce a lot of UV, all but
the near-UV-A is blocked by the outer glass bulb.

It used to be that accidents could break the outer glass
bulb (on these and on the similar "mercury vapor" lamps)
and thereby expose people to the UV-B and -C, but I understand
that the lamps are now required to have a feature that will
cause the lamp to "burn out" if the outer bulb breaks. (It's
something like a carbon track that remains intact in the
nitrogen atmosphere that normally fills the outer bulb but
quickly burns off if exposed to atmospheric oxygen.)

I've never seen spectral data, but an unshielded quartz-
halogen lamp is also a potent source of UV-B and UV-A
(hence the "UV and explosion filter" that is always
fitted to them or included in the bulb); I *ASSUME*
that intact Metal Halide lamps are in the same general
ballpark as UV-shielded Quartz Halogen lamps and fluor-
escent lamps. As I mentioned, they're used everywhere
these days in "high-bay" commercial retail applications
and are turning up more and more often in commercial
accent lighting (because of their high efficiency,
good color, and precise beam control). You've doubtless
experienced them many times.

Tesha

[slampoet]

20. In two years led light bulbs will dominate.

See all the reasons in my above reply. Plus they are currently smaller than the twisted bulbs.

[superconnected]

24. I buy the powerful ones - equiv of 200+ watters, and put them in 60 watt sockets.

They still take under 60 watts. My home is brighter and still using less energy for all that brightness.

My only complaint is the bigger ones that are brighter are funny shapped - like a big overstuffed icecream cones, and they stick out of some of my lamps with 3 lights on them that have cups around the lights.

I use energy saver 100watt equivelent bulbs though most of the house though. I only go for the 200+ watters(energysavers) in the living room and the bedroom.

The reason I'm bringing this up is that some people don't know that you can put an energy saver 240watt equivelent bulb in a 60 watt socket. And get a far brighter light while still using under 60watts.

No problem with lights getting bright at my home. I've never noticed them not being bright.

[Larry in KC]

25. Do you realize how many jokes we're going to have to hear?

...of the "How many Frenchmen does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" variety?

Start counting the jokes.

[krispos42]

28. Don't ban, tax. A €2-per-incandescent-bult tax will do it

And still reserve incandescents for special purposes, unusual lighting fixtures, and the crotchety old diehards.

[smirkymonkey]

36. As a crochety not-so-old diehard, I would happily pay the surcharge

Flourescent light gives me terrible headaches. I have the light bulbs above my desk in the office unscrewed and have felt much better ever since. I would rather use nothing but candlelight than use flourescent. I have always hated bright light anyway (except for sunlight).

Besides I use 40 watt bulbs and rarely have them on unless I am reading or need to find something.

And what about air-conditioners, computers, refrigerators and electronic gadgets. Don't they account for most of the energy spent in a household? I think it would make even more of a difference if we went down to 4 day workweeks and forced corporations and industry to make energy saving choices in the future.

[krispos42]

38. Exactly

They can use the tax money to finance nuclear fusion, and solve all of our energy problems!

[Vox Acerbus]

32. Lowes and BJ's Often Have Rebates on CFL Bulbs

I completely cut over my home to CFL's about four months ago after finding a rebate deal at Lowes and subsequently at BJ's Wholesale Club. I sent in my receipts for the bulbs and was refunded the full price of the purchase from Lowes and something like $10 for the purchase at BJ's. Net cost for all my new bulbs was something like $4.

Keep your eyes peeled for rebates at various home centers. (Never purchase CFL's at a grocery store, they're insanely priced there.) My rebates were sponsored by some power cooperative, I believe. It appears that somewhere some people are very interested in providing the incentive to make the switch.

As to the practical uses and any problems, mine get full-on bright within 30 seconds and work great. I haven't directly compared our power bills, but we are using just a trickling of the power that we used to.

[grannylib]

37. I don't mind the VERY slight delay with the fluorescent bulbs, and I sure

don't mind not having to change them as often.

[Contrite]

39. What about all the recessed can lights out there?

I work in construction of new homes and some of these have 30+ in them.

[Tesha]

41. I've had good luck with CFLs in downlights.

I've had good luck with CFLs in downlights (where the "trim"
doesn't fully-enclose the lamp).

Tesha

[WinkyDink]

42. Sounds like tragic house/apartment fires waiting to happen.

[wuushew]

43. Why?

I don't understand.

[Nihil]

52. It's not your understanding that's at fault ...

Not sure if the poster that you replied to intended to write that
non-sequitor or if it was a joke post that ended up in the wrong place.
Either way, it read to me like the output of a buzz-word generator.
:shrug:

[mainegreen]

44. I hope they don't ban here. CF bulbs only fit in half the sockets in my apartment.

I'd rather not have half my rooms unlit. I am glad they have the rebates though on CF bulbs. It made it much cheaper to get the ones we have.

[Tesha]

49. Which sockets *DON'T* they fit? (NT)

[mainegreen]

51. Anything in a glass case and all of the ceiling sconces.

The base flares wide too soon after the socket. That prevents us from installing them in a lot of fixtures here.

[slackmaster]

54. Government and Wal-Mart know what's best for you

You're going to have to suck it up and install all new fixtures.

[mainegreen]

57. In an apartment I don't own?

Not likely.

[Tesha]

59. Or wait for improved lamps?

> You're going to have to suck it up and install all
> new fixtures.

Your hatred of CFLs is now well-demonstrated. But as
with any technology, things keep getting better all
the time; there's no reason why, with sufficient
market pressure being generated by all those ap-
plications that "don't quite work" or "don't work
well" with today's CFLs, that the vendors won't
respond with even better CFLs.

For example, the Cold Cathode Fluorescent Lamps used
as the backlights in essentially *EVERY* laptop
computer display can also be adapted to operate from
line voltage, and their form factors can be even
smaller than today's CFLs.

Or if "big bases" are a problem, then a form factor
that puts some of the ballast electronics up into
the center of the spiraled lamp will evolve, allowing
smaller bases again.

And I've mentioned Metal Halide lighting elsewhere
in this thread. If people are blocked from using
ordinary incandescent lamps but want a solution
that offers better beam control than CFLs, perhaps
small metal halide conversion lamps will appear.

And isn't GE bragging up some technology that,
via heat-reflective coatings, will allow good old
halogen lamps to reach much-higher efficiencies?

Much as we like to deny it, market pressures
do ocasionally work.

Tesha

[BluePatriot]

47. Mine are insanely bright

I got 4 Phillips energy-saver "vanity" bulbs to replace my old ones in the fixture as 1 had burned out. They look way brighter than the ordinary 40 watt vanity bulbs and only draw 9 watts. They cost a pretty penny ($17 in all) but at least they have a 7 year shelf life.

I want to gradually replace all the bulbs in the apt. We insulated our water heater too. Got the bill down from $210 to $170 last month. Still insane for two in a 650 sq ft loft, but, hey, that's what .16 a kwh does...(Texas, gag)

[slampoet]

66. At my local Flea market they have CF bulbs for a dollar.

These are also the kind that fit into a standard bulb's area and don't stick out.


They might not be as long life, but they are a dollar!! You'll save that in the first 2 months? on a constant bulb.

[gravity]

63. I don't think banning is the best way to do it

CFL's have their drawbacks which make them impractical in certain situations.

I like the idea of placing a tax on them, making them more expensive than CFLs. If people really need the incandescent bulb, they would just have to pay a little extra for it.