Catholic politicians must oppose gay marriage-Pope

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20070313-0529-pope-.html

The Church's opposition to gay marriage is 'non-negotiable' and Catholic politicians have a moral duty to oppose it, as well as laws on abortion and euthanasia, Pope Benedict said in a document issued on Tuesday.

In a 140-page booklet on the workings of a synod that took place at the Vatican in 2005 on the theme of the Eucharist, the 79-year-old German Pope also re-affirmed the Catholic rule of celibacy for priests.

In the 'Apostolic Exhortation' Benedict says all believers had to defend what he calls fundamental values but that the duty was 'especially incumbent' for those in positions of power.

He said these included 'respect for human life, its defence from conception to natural death, the family built on marriage between a man and a woman, the freedom to educate one's children and the promotion of the common good in all its forms'.

'These values are not negotiable,' he said.

[pbca]

1. In Canada

He is seriously risking having the Catholic church here split from Rome

[David Dunham]

3. What about Guiliani?

[Joe Bacon]

66. Republicans get a pass.

You know this only applies to Democrats. Yet another case of IOKIYAR!

[MUAD_DIB]

80. Maybe it's time. That would be sad for the CC, but it's time to

include women as priests and the allowing of priests to marry...amongst other things.

[xchrom]

2. and here's the part that really bothers me --

''and the promotion of the common good in all its forms'.


i can only conclude that the official papal stand then is that gay folk are not participating in the common good.

oh it's not that we don't do ANY good -- but that at our core we are incapable of promoting the common good.

it's past time playing nice with backwards fucks.

these are educated men -- more i believe that they know better -- but for the sake of power they maintain this barbaric posotion.

:grr: and of course it pisses me off more that it follows general pace -- a tapeworm in a uniform and his hateful comments yesterday.

[LiberalFighter]

10. That is what it is all about... power! They don't have power if they don't control the people

[xchrom]

11. and that's what scares these tapeworms -- if they ordained women --

if they ordained married priests -- if they OPENLY ordained gays then their backward days would be over.

but what a better church it would be.

[LiberalFighter]

23. Best way to counter these churches is to break off from them

just like Luther did in 1517 or thereabouts and others that broke off.

In my opinion there is nothing preventing the formation of new churches/religion that allows the marriage of same sexes.

[xchrom]

26. you're right -- all it takes is courage.

[Odin2005]

43. That's the "Aquinas's BS" I mention below

To the RCC homosexuality is wrong because it is "unnatural." In other words, the RCC is committing both the "is-ought" fallacy and using crap Aristotelian metaphysics (Essentialism) that has been abandoned by most philosophers

[xchrom]

50. which is why i say i don't believe them.

good catch on your part -- i merely add my own -- it's 2007, these are educated men -- not to mention worldly -- they know better.

[varun]

4. Then they should also oppose contraception

divorce, masturbation....to be a "true" catholic.

[xchrom]

8. to be fair -- they do oppose those things.

but i'm as cynical about those positions as i am about the pope's reiteration on gay folk.

[varun]

60. This is news to me

Which catholic politician opposed contraception?

[xchrom]

64. it's the stand of the church.

i'm not aware of any politician who openly ''opposes'' contraception -- though you could probably find a conservative catholic politician who opposes the morning after pill under the mistaken impression that this is the same as abortion.

i see re-reading the post you were refering to politicians and not the church.

[Nite Owl]

5. Well since the anti gay, anti choice

politicians are the ones that are primarily the ones that are pro war, pro corporations (anti workers), and anti healthcare (let them die of diseases if they can't afford it). So that's all ok by him? Why is he not saying that those things are immoral? The Catholic Church used to be that way.

[Burma Jones]

6. Didn't mention the Death Penalty

unless one considers it to be euthanasia.

[JerseygirlCT]

57. To be fair, I'd think he includes that in the respect for life

from conception to *natural* death part.

[TechBear_Seattle]

7. Pope Maladict should shut his cake hole

Catholic politicians who obey him are giving truth to accusations against John Kennedy, that Catholics take their orders from the Vatican rather than follow the Constitution and American law.

On the upside, ancient prophesy has the current Bishop of Rome as next to last.

[Ilsa]

69. My sister has heard this as well.

The thought of our lawmakers and law enforcers taking orders from some cloistered dude dressed to the nines in Rome aggravates me to no end.

[Auntie Bush]

75. Oh goodie...then we can't have Armageddon for a few more years

and I won't have to worry any more and get a good nights sleep.
What a relief!

[dkofos]

9. Who voted for the pope to be our supreme leader??

[happyslug]

41. Technically the Collage of Cardinals:

Some history of the Collage of Cardinals:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_Cardinals
http://www.catholic-pages.com/hierarchy/cardinals.asp
http://www.aquinas-multimedia.com/cards/history.html

Remember, with the exception of the Head of the UN, the Pope is the only person elected by people NOT Citizens of any one Country. As to the Head of the UN, he is selected by Representatives of the NATIONS that make up the UN, not people from different Countries (Through the Pope picks the Cardinals, so the Cardinals are NOT elected themselves, thus both people are NOT truly elected by the population of the world).

[TankLV]

79. and these fuckwads counldn't manage to find ANYBODY who wasn't a former NAZI?

I mean, out of ALL the possible candidates, they picked the ONE FORMER NAZI, didn't they!

[MGKrebs]

83. I don't that is not a definitive enough statement.

I think there are probably many persons elected to multitudes of various positions by disparate and multi-national groups. So I'm not sure what the qualification should be: You could say the only "head of a government" elected by citizens of more than one country... but I'm not sure the UN qualifies as a government (or a country).

[CrazyOrangeCat]

12. Hey Ratso.

Shut up.

Hope a mouse runs up your dress.

[Zenlitened]

13. Wow. Just... wow.

I don't even know what to say anymore.

If this guy believes it's somehow morally superior to denigrate and deny basic rights to gay and lesbian people...

If he truly thinks he is just, even righteous, in exhorting democratically-elected officials to impose this twisted view on the people they represent...

Well... I don't know what to say. This Pope is doing more to expose the moral bankruptcy of his Church than I could ever put into words.

Can't imagine what it's like to be a Catholic and have a conscience, these days.

:(

[truebrit71]

25. My sentiments exactly...Does this guy WANT to lose members?

He should shut-up about these issues, and do what he does best, cover-up for the child-rapists..

[closeupready]

33. It's getting harder.

MHO. In view of the pedophilia scandals, and the continuing HIV crisis and the Vatican's position on condoms, I'm really truly struggling with it.

[Zhade]

45. Without attacking you, may I ask: why is it even a struggle?

Seriously.

[closeupready]

46. Catholics are literally indoctrinated from birth.

so it's a part of your identity.

But as a thinking adult, there are just too many other morally correct options. And I really believe God would disapprove of the modern Vatican's teachings on so many issues. I really have been thinking about this over the last couple years, that I need to find something else. I've thought about Buddhism and agnosticism. Still trying to figure it out.

[ProudDad]

77. I like NonTheist

From another thread:

Nontheist

A nontheist does not consider the question of God as it is totally irrelevant to them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2766099#2766995


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2766099&mesg_id=2767359

[crim son]

47. The pope KNOWS he is morally superior.

(that's sarcasm)

The Church's stance on homosexuality is just one of the many reasons I'm not a christian any longer. And remember, the Pope is merely making explicit what, in many Protestant churches, is understood.

[JerseygirlCT]

58. It's the raw political hardball he's now playing that really

takes my breath away. This is obviously targeted at US politicians -- particularly Dems of course.

His problem is that he's a raving lunatic hardliner, lacking any of the charm of his predecessor.

Emperor Palpatine in a beanie.

[gratuitous]

14. It's not like human beings are an endangered species

At least, not from a numerical standpoint. More births and more lives on an overburdened planet is hardly a prescription designed to promote the common good in all its forms. Perhaps if we first addressed the lingering problems of wealth distribution, humane treatment and respect for others, and justice issues that enure to the benefit of more than the moneyed classes, we can get cracking on some of the rest of this. But at this time, and under the circumstances now prevailing, more children born into a lifetime of grinding poverty that kills the body and the soul is just out-and-out cruelty. And coming from someone who will never worry about whether he'll have a bed to sleep in tonight or where his next meal is coming from, this seems the height of arrogance.

[HockeyMom]

15. Vocally Oppose or Legislate Against?

Precisely what is the Pope talking about? You notice he will never come right out and say that he favors the latter.

The quote of our State Senator Nicholas Spano, a Roman Catholic, who wrote the legislation to make the Morning After Pill (abortion to Right to Lifers) OTC in NY sums it up best.

"I was elected senator by the people of New York from all faiths, and none." "I was not elected Cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church."

Hats off to him, even if he is a Republican at that.

[AngryOldDem]

16. And while we're on the topic...

...if the Church insists on inserting itself into our political process, then its churches here in the U.S. must pay for the privilege by losing their tax-exempt status. Which should go without saying.

I find it sadly ironic that Catholics had to practically bend over backward to prove that Rome would not remote-control JFK when he was elected president. Now, that is EXACTLY what Rome is trying to do with politicians who are duly elected by the public at large.

With almost every issue Benny mentions, there is gray area that politicians must consider when reaching an informed decision (and that goes for the rest of us, too). There is also the small matter of representing the concerns of the constituency. God -- I wish he would just butt the hell out.

[closeupready]

34. Exactly right.

n/t

[hedgehog]

17. All he does with these announcements is emphasize once again

how far behind the laity the hierarchy is. Most of these pronouncements are based on medieval science. To show how silly this is, one of the seven deadly sins, sloth, is now recognized as clinical depression. Imagine if all depressives were judged as people willingly choosing sloth!

The attitudes on any form of sexuality are so circular it makes my head spin. Why is "X" wrong? Because the Church teaches it's wrong. Why does the Church teach "X" is wrong? Because that is what the Bishops say the Church teaches. Why do the Bishops say that? Because that is what they were taught. Why were the bishops taught that? Because that's what the Church teaches.

"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.

Is it not clear that the Holy Spirit is speaking to us today because we are finally ready to hear that all Love is good? To bad the bishops have their hands over their ears!

[AngryOldDem]

53. Circular Logic 101

<<The attitudes on any form of sexuality are so circular it makes my head spin. Why is "X" wrong? Because the Church teaches it's wrong. Why does the Church teach "X" is wrong? Because that is what the Bishops say the Church teaches. Why do the Bishops say that? Because that is what they were taught. Why were the bishops taught that? Because that's what the Church teaches.<<

Also the title of one of my favorite Steely Dan tunes, Pretzel Logic. Also known in parenting circles as, "Why? BECAUSE I SAID SO."

I differentiate the Church from Rome. The Church stands for everything that Christ stood for, and is represented by those Catholics who I know and who fulfill Christ's mission here every day of their lives. Rome, however, is just a place where curial bureaucrats go to make a name for themselves by micromanaging everything to within an inch of its life. Like any other bureaucracy, Rome is making itself increasingly irrelevant. And I find that sad, because the Church's voice IS needed (remember JPII's remarks prior to the war), but when it spouts off garbage like this, every pronouncement becomes the equivalent of white noise and is ridiculed and then eventually ignored.

In short, Rome (and to some degree Benny) is making the Church look bad, and for the umpteenth time, I'm getting pretty damned tired of being embarrassed by it.

[yardwork]

18. This will simply drive more and more people away from Catholicism

I know many people already who have left the Catholic Church because of its hateful policies, which they sincerely believe are not in keeping with Jesus's teachings.

[VegasWolf]

19. Well, Fu*k the Pope! Who needs this relic of ancient history? nt

[Bragi]

20. Three cheers for papal irrelevance! /nt

[kestrel91316]

21. Dear Pope: Kindly mind your own f---ing business and butt out of

our democratic, constitutional government.

[happyslug]

22. Here is the Actual Document, it is a document on Catholic Communion

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis_en.html

[Zenlitened]

29. Here's the part that made me think the page had been hacked by The Onion...

The part about how wrong wrong wrong it is to limit the freedoms of the minority:

Freedom of worship

87. In this context, I wish to reiterate the concern expressed by the Synod Fathers about the grave difficulties affecting the mission of those Christian communities in areas where Christians are a minority or where they are denied religious freedom. (239) We should surely give thanks to the Lord for all those Bishops, priests, consecrated persons and laity who devote themselves generously to the preaching of the Gospel and practise their faith at the risk of their lives. In not a few parts of the world, simply going to church represents a heroic witness that can result in marginalization and violence. Here too, I would like to reaffirm the solidarity of the whole Church with those who are denied freedom of worship. As we know, wherever religious freedom is lacking, people lack the most meaningful freedom of all, since it is through faith that men and women express their deepest decision about the ultimate meaning of their lives. Let us pray, therefore, for greater religious freedom in every nation, so that Christians, as well as the followers of other religions, can freely express their convictions, both as individuals and as communities.

Oh, but I'm forgetting... "worship" is the mostest, super-special-bestest freedom of all. Says the guy in the worship biz.

Unreal.

[happyslug]

35. People tend to forget Religion is also a Political movement.

You may oppose that movement, but it exists. To suppress such a movement is also to suppress a Political Movement. Thus the Founding Fathers in the First Amendment did not say the "Separation of Church and State" nor "Freedom from Religion" for that would also mean "Freedom from politics" and politics is how people in any sociality resolves problems within that society.

Remember the words of the 1st Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Religion is FIRST, not because the founding fathers thought move of Religion than of Speech, PRess, Assembly or the right of Petition, but that ALL of these are needed by any Political Movement (in tis sense "Religion" is less a belief in God than a Sense of a common world view that leads to people with a common world view to think alike).

You may oppose the Catholic Church, you may oppose any belief in GOD, but as long as Religions can form themselves and the members of that Religion can do things together, I know I can do the same in a Secular war when building a Political Base (Or Supporting a Movement". If you start to attack Religion and start to use the legal system to suppress them, the same suppression will quickly spread to other "non-religious" movements. Thus to paraphrase (And modify) Voltaire "I may oppose what you are worshiping, but I will protect your right to worship".

[VegasWolf]

39. Sort of agree, my feeling is that Religion is a tool of politics. Simple mammalian

social hierarchies, very few alphas and all the rest are followers. Religion with it "flocks" of "sheep" and their few "sheepherders" who dispense The Inviolate Word of God( all terms are their terms as they describe themselves ). Religion is the perfect tool, they force people into a "Belief Mode" and discourage thinking outside of the acceptable boundaries. Belief before Rationality.

Therefore, your "opposition" vis your paraphrase of Voltaire in my mind is a moot point. Politicians will always use Religion because it is effective. Religion can never be wrong. If one's wife is dying of cancer and science saves her then it's Hallelujah to the Mighty God. If she dies, it's well God Works In Mysterious Ways! Religion can't lose and the alphas need some tool to keep all the followers from rebelling.

[Zenlitened]

48. Not sure I'm seeing your point. Perhaps you meant to further paraphrase Voltaire...

... and forward it to the Vatican, for the Pope's edification, as:

"I may oppose whom you are marrying, but I will protect your right to marry."

:shrug:

[VegasWolf]

36. "Freedom of Worship" - Pope - " and therefore I propose to further extend the Glorious Plan of God

that forthwith The Most Holy Catholic Nation of Spain should join with the Christian Soldiers of God and converge on the newly discovered New World heathen pagan Mayan Indians and convert them to The Glory of Our Generous God. Their lands and gold should be assigned to the Most Holy Catholic Nation of Spain to justify that Most Righteous Nations fiscal expenditures that were necessary to bring the pagan Children of God to Their Most Righteous Father. Amen. Go in Peace My Son.

[happyslug]

38. The legendary "Black Legend"

For more on the Black Legend see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend

FOr more on the Inquisition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revision_of_the_Inquisition#The_Enlightenment_and_Art

[TankLV]

81. Apparently, the HYPOCRISY is lost on these asswipes too...

religious "freedom" for US to practice what WE want and to FORCE YOU to behave as WE want...

SOMEBODY needs a talking-too about what the concept of "religious freedom" means...

"dictatorship is great - as long as I'm the dictator"

[damntexdem]

24. So fine: they can oppose gay marriage for the Pope.

But they have no business trying to legislate their morality onto their fellow citizens. And they should tell the Pope where he can stick it when he says they "must" do so.

[Beacho]

27. If the Church wants to play politics then it's time to pay their taxes

If they want to hold on to their lucre, then they need to STFU.

[Kolesar]

28. I missed Benedict/Ratzenberger's speech about protecting the climate

Ok, I am being fillipant. Was there a speech on protecting the climate recently? Would love to hear he is working on that.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

30. Yet another reason

why I remain alienated from the church of my youth. Where in the New Testament, or the Gospel, are the words of Jesus Christ on these issues?
:shrug:

[DrunkenMaster]

31. Dear Pope,

Please, shut the f**k up.

Thank you.

Sincerely,
The World

[GoddessOfGuinness]

32. Pope must remove his head from his ass

He has a moral duty to evolve from his hate-mongering, narrow-minded state of existence.

[krispos42]

37. And this is exactly why people don't trust Catholic politicians

Few people want a politician that will listen to the Pope above the constituency.

And this is why I'd rather not have religious people in Congress. Many of Christianity's (and religion in general) principles are squarely against the idea of representative democracy and the Constitution.

[Occulus]

62. Nail, meet head.

"Many of Christianity's (and religion in general) principles are squarely against the idea of representative democracy and the Constitution."

Precisely.

[krispos42]

65. Thank you

Ironically, a good, devout Christian makes a bad American, and vice versa.

[mitchtv]

40. Is he speaking "ex cathedra"?

if not, it is the same value as used toilet paper. If he is it's worth the same.

[closeupready]

49. that's what I was thinking. They won't say, of course, they'll allude that yes,

he is speaking ex cathedra. :eyes:

[AngryOldDem]

55. I don't think they'd be that stupid to couch it in those terms

While I know many Catholics think that whatever the Pope spews is infallible, speaking "ex cathedra" is pretty rare, and I don't see Benny doing that when it comes to secular political positions. I think if Rome tried that, there would be an uproar (justifiably so) and the Church would wind up looking even more foolish than it does now. Instead, it'll probably trot out the old threats of withholding communion and possible excommunication. I can see that becoming more of an issue in the next election as there are some extremely conservative bishops here (Burke and Bruskewitz come to mind) who would just love to press the point, as well as a few vocal conservative Catholics who would be right with them, cheering them on.

Every so often I think Rome gets this fear that nobody is paying attention to it. So, it has to make these "pronouncements" that are essentially the proverbial sound and fury. Rome works out of an ignorance of true representative government. By all means, politicians should bring their personal frames of reference and belief systems into any debate, but at the end of the day they are still **elected** representatives who must listen to their constituents (not all of whom are Catholic) as well as to their common sense, and then act accordingly.

As I said earlier, there is a big gray area in almost every issue the Pope brings up -- abortion and euthanasia are two good examples. Politics cannot be a black-and-white, all-or-nothing proposition -- at least not in the kind of political structure we have here. That may be how it is in the insular world of Church politics, but this is not Rome. Take note, Benny.

[Odin2005]

42. Rationial people to Razi: FUCK OFF

The RCC's moral theorizing hasn't advanced beyond St. Augustine's irrational hatred of his own body and Aquinas's Aristotelian (X is bad because it us unnatural) nonsense.

[Zhade]

44. Remember, DUers: it is AGAINST THE RULES not to support our equal right to marry.

Skinner's own words.

That said, the mind boggles at any DUer who can still support this insane motherfucker.

[superconnected]

51. I bet they change their 2000 year stance in the next 2 decades.

Sad they aren't changing it now. And of course it's frustrating, dealing with the unevolved. There will probably always be purist who will sight old rules and be against gay marriage. I just think it's archiac for Churches at this point. And many have evolved, just not the Catholic Church yet.

[JerseygirlCT]

59. Ah well, 2 decades would be lightening fast for the RCC nt

[JNelson6563]

52. Pope needs to study history--Julie

Someone needs to remind the Pope about how it turned out last time when the Church got too intertwined with secular politics.

Seems to me that "promotion of the common good in all its forms" would include oppressing the rights of homosexuals, among others.

Some animals are more equal than others....can I get a witness??

Julie

[BigDDem]

54. What's his position on

shuffling pedophiles around? Do you still get promoted for doing that?

[mikelgb]

56. and War?

[Occulus]

61. And people wonder why I'm hostile to christianity.

GEE! I fucking wonder.

[superconnected]

63. It'd work if someone would try it.

[PassingFair]

67. Have you READ their book?

Just asking....

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

82. I recommend a passage that has 42 children, a bald man, and a bear.

And no, it's not what you're thinking. It's worse.

[baldguy]

68. In the 1960 Presidential campaign, anti-Catholic bigots opposed JFK.

In part, because they feared that as a Catholic, he would do nothing but take orders from the Vatican. JFK won because he explicitly refuted the notion that the Pope should be able to give orders to the President.

But what is forgotten is that he also said that no church should impose its will directly in any way in a democracy: "I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish--where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source--where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials--and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all." (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/40/story_4080_1.html)

The fears of the bigots have come to pass, imposed by the bigots themselves.

[noonwitch]

70. Reason #523 of why I am not a catholic

If one is a catholic and is told by the church that their values are not negotiable, then one can become an episcopalian. It's a free country.

I am so glad that I live in this country, where I can choose my own religion.

[Matariki]

71. Can't these idiots go extinct already.

what has any pope had to offer but oppression and guilt?

[CatholicEdHead]

72. This is being seen in the pews

I am on our Parish Council of the now biggest and youngest church (of 5) in the city. We are struggling to make ends meet. The other two large parishes are much older overall and in fast decline. Yet even our parish is having problems because we have to pick up the slack on other matters with the older parishes.

This will continue to hurt the diocese as a whole with this "non-negotiable" crap. While driving through Wisconsin I pick up (ir)Relevant Radio and I consider that a joke and a half. It is more political and nothing but an conservative to ultra-conservative stance is allowed.

Down in the Madison diocese, there is a push to spend $20-30 Million+ on a new Cathedral building. Many people dislike this trend as Bishop Morlino is not alone in bringing back the opulence of the past.
http://www.madison.com/tct/mad/topstories/index.php?ntid=122607&ntpid=0

[NobleCynic]

73. So, will Catholics who do otherwise face excommunication?

[CatholicEdHead]

74. I believe they will be "automatically excommucated"

Whatever that rule is called in Latin.

Of course it has no real meaning and the parishioners will continue to do what they have been doing. To crack down too hard will restrict the money supply.

[ProudDad]

76. Even most Italians

don't follow what the Pope says.

Actually, Especially the Italians.

It's like those of us in California who knew ray-gun was a prick while the further from Cal you got, the "better he looked"


Also, folks, remember that this is the NAZI POPE.

Fuck him (he wishes)...

[TankLV]

78. Why do we have to listen to a former NAZI anyway?

Hey popie - your pointed white hat is showing - no wait - you actually wear it out in the open!!!