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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 03:48 AM
Original message
Confession of 9/11 architect backfires on US
Confession of 9/11 architect backfires on US
By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
INDEPENDENT (UK) 18 March 2007
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2368990.ece


Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's dramatic confessions before a US military hearing are beginning to backfire on the Bush administration. Legal experts are casting serious doubt about their validity as evidence, and human rights activists say they only illuminate a "sham process" of justice in the US war on terror, including the apparent use of torture on Mohammed and potentially dozens of other al-Qa'ida suspects.

-- snip --

Almost immediately, however, legal experts said he appeared to be exaggerating his role for his own self-aggrandisement and may also have deliberately floated false claims to send US investigators on wild goose chases.

The CIA denies that Mohammed was tortured, but evidence to the contrary has been building for years. Two years ago, a CIA official told ABC News that he had been water-boarded, and had won the admiration of his interrogators because it took him two to two-and-half minutes to start confessing - well beyond the average of 14 seconds observed in others.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 03:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. K&R, here's a link to the article: CIA's Harsh Interrogation Techniques Described
~snip~

According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess.

"The person believes they are being killed, and as such, it really amounts to a mock execution, which is illegal under international law," said John Sifton of Human Rights Watch.

more:http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866
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WePurrsevere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. How many people truly have the fortitude to not "confess"
under the types of torture we have proof has been done? :grr:

Reading this stuff makes me feel like I'm reading an account from the Inquisition. :( :grr:

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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. the neocon inquisition.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Nobody expects the neocon inquisition!


-Hoot
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
38. and just what, prey tell, is tattooed on the back of their necks? nt
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NI4NI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
33. Even John McCain submitted to torture as a POW
Edited on Sun Mar-18-07 03:54 PM by NI4NI
He repeated only what his North Vietnamese captors wanted him to say, not what he himself believed. They prevented McCain from committing suicide by hanging just before he was to denounce the U.S. for war crimes, then they gave him the worst beating he ever recieved as a POW before then, after which he would have falsely admitted to anything, and did. I think I would have also. IMO, it's almost human nature or instinct to tell a lie, or confess to most anything that torturers want to hear inorder to avoid another brutal beating.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. How long would the dimwad last? If they use beer instead of water
probably indefinitely.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. Won't hear this from U.S. media, I'm sure.
MSM still pretty much in "our American shit don't stink" mode.

Hope to be proven wrong, but I doubt it.

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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Yes they continue to ignore the PHOTO EVIDENCE
Of Military Thugs who MURDER, RAPE and

attach electric wires to prisoner's penises, while making said prisoner stand on a box with a sandbag on his head.

Or the "Civilian" CIA types who frolicked at Abu Ghraib shoving plastic Flashlights up little boys Rectums
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WHAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 04:07 AM
Response to Original message
3. The next time they catch another second-in-command...
all he has to do is confess to everything. I'm sure they've figured this out by now since I have and I suspect most are smarter than me...
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sutz12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 04:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. Nice to know we have solid standards for our torture methods....
>>"it took him two to two-and-half minutes to start confessing - well beyond the average of 14 seconds observed in others. "<<

Accurate statistics for performance are important, you know.

:sarcasm:
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Sounds like another triumph for...
Six Sigma.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 05:15 AM
Response to Original message
6. as well it should.
why keep khalid's process such a deep dark secret?

they have the guy -- you mount evidense against him and proceed.

he knows he is never going to be let go -- that information is useless -- except for history.

if he wants it on the record that he committed these crimes -- he'll spill the beans.

this whole affair is going to make suspect the process as much as it will the ''confession''.
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anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
7. Who could believe this malarkey ? No open court
and for all we know they drug him in one door and out the other, declaring that he had a trial. What a farce and we are to believe these liars?
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 06:41 AM
Response to Original message
8. When I heard about his 'confession'
my first thought was that Bush administration was trying to divert us from all the scandals leaking out
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. thought the same thing
considering they had this guy in custody for 2-3 years, and they are just releasing the info now?

if the "confession" was so compelling why wasn't it released sooner? like sometime before Nov '06 mid term elections? or around the time people were calling for Rummy's resignation?

meanwhile bush is chiding Congress about micromanaging Iraq, and bush is MACRO-MISmanaging it
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CGowen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
9. like confessing to something that wasn't there when he was in jail
March 15, 2007
Important: Huge Problem with KSM Confession
In his confession, KSM claims:

"I was responsible for planning, training, surveying, and financing for the New (or Second) Wave of attacks against the following skyscrapers after 9/11: ...Plaza Bank, Washington state"

The Plaza Bank was not founded until 2006 according to their official Web site:

" Founded in early 2006, with a vision of creating the leading commercial bank in the Pacific Northwest, Plaza Bank’s story quickly captured the hearts and passion of some of the region’s leading business minds. From Jack Creighton, former CEO of Weyerhaeuser and United Airlines, to former Seattle Mariner Edgar Martinez, and nationally acclaimed salon operator Gene Juárez, the story of a bank founded to bring “class to the mass” simply could not be contained."

I think we can say for quite certain that whomever is being held as KSM was either caught recently or that his entire confession is a fraud.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x423648
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. My guess is that
the detainees are prompted by the interrogators - i.e. the detainees are forced to agree with a suggestion that is put to them, so it's likely this plot was dreamt up by the interrogator.

(This is just my impression from a radio interview I heard with a British Gitmo detainee who was released.).
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. The range of the confession is limited by one thing
The imagination of the guy inflicting the torture. There have been plenty of "joke" threads about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed "confessing" to various things like the Lindbergh baby kidnapping, the disappearance of Amelia Earhart or Britney's haircut, but the reality is that they could have wrung a confession out of him for all these things. It is well established that a person under the duress of torture will say anything he or she thinks will get his torturer to stop the torture. The hypothetical and future consequences of confessing to a non-present crime are negligible to the very real and present consequences of refusing to say what the torturer wants to hear.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. ooh!
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
14. CIA kidnapped /interrogated his 7 & 9 yr. old sons; used them to threaten him
This article is dated March 10, 2003. Either it took the CIA 4 years of torture to obtain this "confession" or they've been saving it for god knows how long (possibly because it is so exaggerated and unbelievable, given that the whole world has long known that "confessions" obtained through torture are bogus). The thing is, he may have done much of what he's confessed to, but the administration/CIA/Gonzalez/GITMO have lost all credibility.

www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/09/1047144871928.html


Two young sons of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the suspected mastermind of the September 11 attacks, are being used by the CIA to force their father to talk. Yousef al-Khalid, 9, and his brother, Abed al-Khalid, 7, were taken into custody in Pakistan in September when intelligence officers raided a flat in Karachi where their father had been hiding.

Mohammed fled just hours before the raid but his sons and another senior al-Qaeda member were found cowering behind a wardrobe in the apartment. The boys have been held by the Pakistani authorities but this weekend they were flown to America where they will be questioned about their father. CIA interrogators confirmed that the boys were staying at a secret address where they were being encouraged to talk about their father's activities. "We are handling them with kid gloves," said one official. "After all, they are only little children, but we need to know as much about their father's recent activities as possible. We have child psychologists on hand at all times and they are given the best of care."

Mohammed, 37, is being held in solitary confinement at the Bagram US military base in Afghanistan. He is being subjected to "stress and duress" interrogation techniques. He has been told that his sons are being held and is being urged to divulge future attacks against the West and reveal the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden.

"He has said very little so far," a CIA official said on Saturday. "He sits in a trance-like state and recites verses from the Koran. But while he may claim to be a devout Muslim, we know he is fond of the Western-style fast life. His sons are important to him. The promise of their release and their return to Pakistan may be the psychological lever we need to break him."

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anotherdrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. I wonder where those kids are today? n/t
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
16. His only way to signal the world that he is lying under duress
is to confess to too much, in hopes that his inquisitors will report all his confessions, thereby inadvertently carrying his message for him. The desperate outcry of a desperate man.

God, I hate what this country is doing.
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
19. Bush brand torture...
...works as well as everything else Bush touches.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
21. Confession of 9/11 architect backfires on US


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2368990.ece
Confession of 9/11 architect backfires on US

By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles

Published: 18 March 2007
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's dramatic confessions before a US military hearing are beginning to backfire on the Bush administration. Legal experts are casting serious doubt about their validity as evidence, and human rights activists say they only illuminate a "sham process" of justice in the US war on terror, including the apparent use of torture on Mohammed and potentially dozens of other al-Qa'ida suspects.

Mohammed's claims to have been fully responsible for the 9/11 attacks on New York and Washington, the murder of Daniel Pearl, the 2002 Bali disco bombings and a host of lesser plots, both hatched and fully realised, were made public to great fanfare last week.

Almost immediately, however, legal experts said he appeared to be exaggerating his role for his own self-aggrandisement and may also have deliberately floated false claims to send US investigators on wild goose chases.

The CIA denies that Mohammed was tortured, but evidence to the contrary has been building for years. Two years ago, a CIA official told ABC News that he had been water-boarded, and had won the admiration of his interrogators because it took him two to two-and-half minutes to start confessing - well beyond the average of 14 seconds observed in others.
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VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. It didn't help bush's frame up when KSM also admitted he killed J.R. Ewing! nt
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NightWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. lest we should also not forget
that under torture he admitted planing to knock off a bank that had not been built when he was arrested. I bet he also admitted to killing JFK, et al.

By the bushes tying KSM to 9/11 it looks like they are trying to hide something about 9/11. Are they trying to conceal or mask the fact that they have not caught Osama? I thought that OBL was the mastermind of everything.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. This was a no-brainer. Catching KSM was a tremendous opportunity .to obtain info on Al Qaeda
And apparently the Bushies bungled it -- as they have everything else they have touched. What a bunch of losers. They were so greedy for success that they let it slip away. Can't somebody impeach these bozos now. This is the last straw.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. We have no idea at all.
Catching Khalid Sheikh Mohammed may have been a great opportunity, or Khalid Sheikh Mohammed may have been a low level flunky, or Khalid Sheikh Mohammed might not even exist at all outside of the psyops war rooms of langley.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. Very true. I concede.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. well beyond the average of 14 seconds
So water boarding is 'not torture' but on average a person puts up with 14 seconds of water boarding before confessing?

Hmmm... sometimes it isn't the story that is important, it is the little details around the story that are most revealing.

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Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. That got me too.
That and his torturers 'admiration' for the guy lasting so long. What a sick, sick, world...
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
39. but but but - it's not torture, and if if is he lated longer than all others...
if it's not horrible and brutal and torture, what's the big deal a "lasting"?

and if we don't torture, what was he "lasting" at?

my head hurts...
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Klimmer Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
27. Exactly, anyone of us would confess to anything when being tortured . . .
especially when they (the BCF Neo-con Rethugs and all their associates) have it worked out now to a fine art.

When you think you are going to die or the pain is so intense all you want is for it to stop, and you will say anything.

Any torture is inhumane, illegal, against all UN international laws regarding the rules of war, and is worthless.

See, Bush started this early in his childhood when he blew-up frogs. He has a lifetime of experience doing this, including as Gov of Texas, and gains some kind of morbid pleasure remotely, even if he doesn't actually pull the trigger, or flip the switch when it is done.

The BCF Neo-con Rethugs are just making-up as many straw-men as they want, to make the sheeple think 9-11 was done by a group of Middle East terrorists, but we know it was really an inside job done by the Al CIA-duh, and all of their other secret government black-op associates. Perhaps Blackwater, the BCF Neo-con GOP Rethug secret Army was involved in pulling off 9-11? Every government or organization, in bed with these dark over lords of the current BCF administration, including the Mossad are suspect.

9-11 was an inside job. Now, they are just "manufacturing" suspects and fake confessions to say, . . .


"See, here you go --- they did it. They have confessed to it. So why do you all keep saying 9-11 was an inside job even though all the evidence says so? Come-on leave us alone. Even though this current administration is full shit and full of crooks and liars, and we are filthy rotten to the core, trust us on 9-11. We know who did it. We got'm to confess, what more do you want?"

Here, watch this short video . . . but you have to wait all the way to the end for the best part!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIgoXQWiSlM



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laylah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
29. Although I agree this man is vile
in many aspects, this whole situation makes me feel ashamed. WTF has happened to my country of birth? :cry:

Jenn
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
30. Ask yourself, "Do you think that Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld have any interest in
Edited on Sun Mar-18-07 03:23 PM by Peace Patriot
'keeping us safe'?" And if your answer is no--like mine (and my 'no' is unqualified--I think they have NO interest in our safety; to them, we are the marks to be looted, and the cannon fodder to be killed to make them rich)--then the next question is, "Why are they torturing these people?" If it is not to "keep us safe," if it is not to prevent attacks, what is the purpose? Perversion? Possibly. But when you consider the range of crime they may have committed--and are still committing--you have to wonder if they are not using this completely unlawful assertion of the right to torture, and other lawlessness such a indefinite detention and pervasive domestic spying--plus the huge spy/black ops apparatus of the "Patriot Act"/US military "security" establishment--to COVER UP their crimes.

Perhaps Khalid Sheikh Mohammed knew something about the Saudi/Bush 9/11 money trail, or Cheney arms dealings. How convenient to have him in custody at a secret location, and to have a lapdog Congress and Supreme Court providing no oversight--and, indeed, providing cover--and to be free to use unlawful powers to purge this information from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's mind, and to be in absolute control of the contents of his "confession." You have complete control of a potential witness/whistleblower re your own crimes. You can prevent the public from ever finding out what he really knows. And you can, a) use his "confession" as needed, for timely headlines, and b) suicide him at any time, should anything start leaking out. If you were Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, would your traumatized brain forget its knowledge of Bush Junta crimes--bury it, perhaps irrecoverably-- if the CIA were holding your young sons in custody, and were waterboarding you, and doing god knows what else to you? It's very likely that you would. And I think this is a much more likely explanation for the use of torture, and the secrecy around torture, and the secret military tribunals, and all the rest, than that it has anything whatever to do with our national security.

They can also 'disappear' the interrogators. No one is safe. Valerie Plame's fate--and that of her entire WMD counterproliferation network--all put in jeopardy of their lives, taught us that. If you present any threat of exposure to these criminals, or even just know things, they can ruin you, create circumstances in which someone else kills you, or even just drop you out of an airplane over the ocean, as their thugs in Latin America did to leftists, peasants and union organizers.

I think that this confession is not just crap (completely untrustworthy), and not just a manipulation of the newsstream in a time of Bushite scandal (after scandal after scandal). It is possibly being used to cover up Bushite crime, perhaps the Bush Junta's complicity in 9/11, either by promulgating the official story (--that Islamic jihadists cooked up and implemented that attack all on their own), or by torture power over this prisoner, washing his brain of knowledge of their complicity. I think that they are probably using torture and detention in this way on many Bush Junta crimes, and also to further their greed--for instance, to eliminate Iraqis who are especially effective at opposing US global corporate predator oil contracts in Iraq, or anyone in the Islamic world who interferes with their war or business profiteering, or that of their pals. Say some Iraqi or Pakistani happens to witness, or be involved in, some dirty business with Halliburton, or Blackwater, or Exxon-Mobile, and, for some reason, comes to be viewed as a risk. Their house gets raided, and they are hauled off to some dungeon in Abu Ghraib or elsewhere. And they end up on the bottom of the pile of naked bodies. It's the ideal "Mafia" world, for the Bushite criminals, whom we know have nothing but contempt for the rule of law, for the Constitution, for the Geneva Conventions and the UN Charter, and of course for common decency.

If they meant well by us, there would be no tax cuts for the rich in time of war. We all know this. There would be no $10 trillion deficit. If they meant well by us, there would be no oil price gouging, or Bankruptcy bill, or borrowing against Social Security and government pensions. If they meant well by us, there would be a lid on the outsourcing of jobs and of US manufacturing. If they meant well by us, they wouldn't have tried to sell US ports to sheiks of Araby. If they meant well by us, we wouldn't have seen the poor of New Orleans dying in their own shit after the Katrina disaster--with the first no-bid contract going to you know who, for more phantom you know what. We know that they do not mean us well--in ANY respect whatsoever. They mean us ill. They are looting us blind. Nor do they mean us well by torturing prisoners.

One plot concerning which I suspect that Iraqis may have been tortured and 'disappeared,' is a possible Rumsfeld scheme to plant nukes in Iraq, to be "found" by the US troops who were "hunting" for them--as a followup to the Niger/Iraq nuke forgeries. (Get this bogus allegation into Bush's SOTU speech, then make it come true, by planting the weapons.) Iraqi contacts of Brewster-Jennings, or of David Kelly (the top British WMD expert who was found dead, under highly suspicious circumstances, four days after Plame was outed), or Iraqi contacts of other UN weapons inspectors, would have been in the prime, on-the-ground position to notice illicit weapons movements in Iraq, as the invasion proceeded. And there were some intriguing reports in the Islamic press, at the time, of foiled US efforts to plant WMDs in Iraq--but no followup. What happened to these witnesses? (One of the reports concerned illicit WMDs in boxes with false Red Cross markings, at the Basra port.) Could this be why David Kelly turned whistleblower after the invasion (he had supported removing Saddam)--that he heard of this scheme, and perhaps heard of friends of his in Iraq (counterproliferation contacts) getting 'disappeared'? And is his knowledge of such a scheme why HE was killed? (And I think he WAS killed for what he knew--just not enough evidence to pin down why he posed such a threat to the Blairites.)

Anyway, we have to face the dismaying reality of all the collusion here at home--of some of our top Democratic leaders--in letting this situation go so out of control, without objection, just as they colluded with the Bushite corporate takeover of our election system. Out of malice. Out of cowardice. Out of greed. A mixed bag, the Democratic leadership. Some still sincere believers in democracy. Some not. And the collusion of all major "news" organizations, including our touted "newspaper of record," the NYT, those scumbags.

How do gangsters take over a neighborhood? By there being not enough community cohesion, and too much political corruption, to begin with. Every family or person for themselves, behind a locked gate. How do they take over a country? The same. A democracy in a state of erosion and decline for twenty years. And to undo this horror is going to take a long time--a long road back to democracy and our cohesion and common purpose as a nation.

It seems hopeless, but it is not. Ask Nelson Mandela about hopeless. Ask Rosa Parks about hopeless. Ask the poor of South America about hopeless--who are now engaged in a great democracy movement, which has seen the election of leftist (majorityist) governments in Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador and Nicaragua, and powerful new leftist movements in Peru, Paraguay and Mexico. Such amazing developments, after decades and centuries of often US-backed brutal oppression. They have suffered horrors such as these--their rulers torturing and 'disappearing' people, and vast corruption. And the keys to their recovery and success are these, in my opinion...

1. Transparent elections.
2. Grass roots organization.
3. Think big.

And one more: Think long term. Our culture fosters impatience. And I see a lot of impatience here at DU--impatience that the Democrats in Congress have not yet stopped the war, etc. We must learn to think past the next election, and past the latest outrage. We must think about power and how people can re-acquire it, once it is lost. A lot of nitty-gritty work needs to be done--especially on transparent elections, but also on informing and organizing people. We need to understand WHY our elections are not transparent, who did it, who is protecting that non-transparency, and how, strategically, to get around them. We have to be wily and realistic. And we have to NOT be daunted by setbacks, and by continuing horrors. We CAN win back our democracy. But it's going to take time.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." We are having to learn this lesson all over again. To not become corrupt, power needs to be dispersed, and constantly curtailed by "checks and balances." We, the people, are the ultimate "check and balance." Our rightful power has been taken away--the power of our vote in openly counted elections. This was done for a REASON. 75% of the American people now oppose this war, and we CAN'T get it stopped--not just because of Bushite dinosaurs in the Senate (only 1/3 of which was up for reelection in '06), but also because of leaders in our own party who were not chosen in transparently counted primaries! Forty or fifty of them in the House--the disreputable "'Blue Dog" Democrats--who want to cut spending on everything but the war machine. Our will is being thwarted. And, until we restore transparent vote counting, it will continue to be thwarted. I think we showed in '06 that the people can out vote the machines. But, as long as rightwing Bushite corporations have this capability to place a 5% to 10% "thumb on the scales" for Bushites, warmongers and corporatists, we can't outvote them enough. This must be Priority no. 1 in fighting this unjust, heinous war, and all of its associated horrors, including torture. 63% of the American people oppose torture "under any circumstances" (May '04). Why then is torture CONTINUING?

That is the question. How can this obscenity be continued--how can Bush still have this power--with the vast majority of Americans opposed to it? And how DID this criminal remain in office, after the Abu Ghraib revelations? How did he get a rubber-stamp Congress? And why, with 75% of the American people opposed to these polices, could we only achieve a 50/50 Congress?

The answer is staring us in the face. 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY vote counting, owned and controlled by rightwing Bushite corporations (a coup that took place very fast, between 2002 and 2004, with $3.9 billion in funding from the Anthrax Congress). And that must be our chief line of attack in recovering our democracy. Getting our ACTUAL power back--making them count every vote in a way that everyone can see and understand.
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Klimmer Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Peace Patriot, nice essay response. You have thought long and deep. I agree:-))
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
31. I shudder to think...
...of those children in the hands of this government. I mean Our Glorious Comrade, John Woo has said that it is OK to crush the testicles of children if it gets the adults to confess. These bastards deserve to go to the Hague....
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
36. "to start confessing"
Edited on Sun Mar-18-07 06:14 PM by Amonester
Really?

R they really thinking we're all as stupid as they R??

(yep.)

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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
40. did he confess to being in the "Trotskyite-Zinovievite Terrorist Centre"?
Cited in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Trials):


It is now known that the confessions were given only after great psychological pressure and torture had been applied to the defendants. From the accounts of former GPU officer Alexander Orlov and others the methods used to extract the confessions are known: repeated beatings, torture, making prisoners stand or go without sleep for days on end, and threats to arrest and execute the prisoners' families. For example, Kamenev's teenage son was arrested and charged with terrorism. After months of such interrogation, the defendants were driven to despair and exhaustion


Now tell me who won the Cold War?
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
41. Winning the hearts and minds of the torturers???
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
42. For torture alone Bush and his crooked cronies should be impeached.
They have no interest in the US; everything they have done has been to enrich their crime family and consolidate their power. They have certainly increased the number of people in the world dedicated to our destruction. The kindest thing I could say about George/Brownie/Gonzo/Dick and all is that they are a catastrophe. We're going to need a truth and reconciliation tribunal before this is over.
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heatstreak Donating Member (107 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
43. kick
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