Longer day proposed to aid failing (US) schools

[rainbow4321]

Source: WebIndia

U.S. education officials are increasingly supporting a proposal to expand the length of the average school day in schools struggling to meet expectations.

With recent test results showing that more than 10,000 U.S. schools will likely fall below standards this year, education officials in states like Massachusetts have already started a move toward longer school days, the New York Times reported Monday.

But opponents of the movement maintain that the increased school time would only prove effective if focused on active learning.

Critics told the Times such active learning would prove daunting given limited education funding and the added strain placed upon already overworked U.S. teachers.



Read more: http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/World/20070327/621368.html

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Hmmm...I'm thinking the focus should be on better quality use of current hours, not INcreased quantity of hours.

[aquart]

1. Yep.

[Sherman A1]

2. I would propose

adding hours to the day at the White House and less vacation time for the esteemed Mr. Bush. Let us see just how much he would like extending the workday.

[sutz12]

70. Oh god no!

I'd propose we send Dubya off on a permanent vacation and see if we can get some adults to run the country.

[Bonobo]

3. I would propose not taking a frigging 3 month break for summer! Madness!

[MadHound]

7. Kids need a break, teachers need a break,

You would kill the tourism industry in this country, a large segment of schools don't have AC, do you actually propose that teachers work for another three months on the same pay, how in the hell to you expect teachers to work on these higher degrees that are required under NCLB unless they do it during the summer, when else are school districts supposed to get major projects and renovations done, on and on the reasons go.

No, the school year should not be extended throughout summer. One other thing, go into school, teach and entire school year, and then tell me that you don't need a couple of months off before you go insane.

[customerserviceguy]

9. I think teachers

already get paid pretty well for a part-time job. I work twelve hour days in a computer chip factory, and I made just under $30K last year. It would have been nice to have had three months off, days that begin at 8 and end at 2.

[Bridget Burke]

12. So call up your local school district....

Present your qualifications & get one of those cushy jobs.

By the way--you left off the time spent grading papers. Or preparing lesson plans. Or supervising extracurricular activities. Or shopping for school supplies--with your own money.

[antonialee839]

61. Yep, it's a cushy job alright.

A teacher here in my city recently had his neck broken by two students. He looks real comfortable with that halo on.
Teachers deserve more pay, not less. Some of them work under extremely stressful conditions.

[MadHound]

16. LOL, boy have you got the wrong impression

First off, a teacher has to be at school generally at 7am. Most teachers don't leave until 5 or 6pm. They may or may not get a break for lunch. Then they get to take a bunch of grading home, develop lesson plans, organize events, contact parents, etc. etc. ad nauseum. Most generally work until 9, some later. Oh, and the weekends? Forget it, that's when a teacher is either catching up, or trying to get ahead. Same thing with all of those school holidays, for teachers those are when you're either catching up on work or preparing ahead of time. Just because teachers aren't in the office doesn't mean that they're not working, OK. Most teachers put in twelve to fourteen hour days, day in, day out, weekends and holidays.

Oh, and as far as that summer "vacation" that you're so envious of? That's when teachers are again, working ahead for next year's class, working on that post graduate degree that is mandated by law(at the teacher's own expense), attending mandated continuing education sessions, seminars, etc., again, all at their own expense. If they're lucky they might, might get a month off. And sense teacher's pay(at least around here in the Midwest) starts out in the low 20,000 range, many teachers wind up taking part time jobs for that month in order to make ends meet.

Your conception, sadly like most of the public's, of teachers work habits is way, waaaaay off base. More than one person, having gone through the most extensive education program for an undergraduate degree, gets in the field and runs away fleeing after the first year because of the low pay and very long hours. In fact I would double dog dare you to go teach, find out for yourself how cushy a job teaching is. My bet, you wouldn't last a month before you run away screaming.

Twelve hour days, pffft, I long for twelve hour days:rofl:

[RebelOne]

29. You are absolutely correct. My daughter is a middle school teacher

in South Florida. And her job doesn't end when she leaves the school. And, yes, her weekends are shot also.

[raccoon]

37. Not to mention PITA students, parents, and administrators. nt

[RiverStone]

135. Thanks MadHound!

Having spent over 20 years in public education, I find it both sad and maddening that (some) in the general public have such a skewed idea of educating our nation's children.

All your points are right on! Add to that the stress of NCLB, an underfunded joke of a mandate which has hogtied many a teacher's creativity in providing a diverse and exciting learning environment and what do you have? Burnt out educators who (like me) now question why we stay in such the "noble profession" when we are constantly battling such moronic observations.

By the time summer hits, most of us are beyond exhaustion. Just in time to begin maintaining our respective state's clock hour requirement for keeping certification. And now as my two teenagers think about college, I resent that after giving so much of my career to the profession of education itself; I struggle with how in the world can I help my kids pay for college on such a wimpy salary?

Yea, I've done TONS of good for kids (lots of great karma anyway) - it's just nobody told me 25 years ago that at middle age - I'd still be struggling financially because I went into education.

[all.of.me]

22. teaching is far from part time.

teachers stay after the kids go, usually until 5. there are also meetings, homework, and a lot of destressing. they work in the summer doing their final grading and planning for the next year. they stay later in the year and start earlier. classroom time is what kids and parents see, but there is so much more for a teacher. they are grossly underpaid, if you ask me.

[Epiphany4z]

39. as the stay at home mom

of 5 very wonderful children I can tell you teachers do not make nearly enough....lol I am sorry but dealing with children is exhausting. I can only imagine how much more fun it is with most of the children's parents added to mix. Hard work isn't always pr oven by sweat alone.

That aside I am not sure how many hours a day you want kids in school..Particularly when you see schools cutting back recess and gym classes ..I am sorry but just the nature of childhood says they need let off steam time...physical ed, recess and free play time after school are when children do an awfully lot of social skills learning ...If the point is just to lock them in class room with more math , reading ect...it would IMHO be waisted time and money.

[bleedingheart]

40. Having volunteered in my children's school..

I think teachers deserve every dime they get and probably deserve more.

It is hard work teaching a classroom full of kids and keeing them interested and occupied.

I was exhausted after just one day of working with a bunch of kids...

[WindRavenX]

43. LOL-- you can't possibly be serious in claiming teaching is a "part time" job

:rofl: :rofl:

[JackRiddler]

51. Teaching is not a part-time job!

If the teacher is doing the job, then certainly he or she is spending more than 40 hours a week preparing lessons and being at the school. (If the teacher is not doing the job, that's a different matter.)

Teaching furthermore when done seriously is a performance art and utterly exhausting. Education is not amenable to forced marches, it requires intense periods of learning and ample breaks. Teachers are not paid well for the qualifications, the importance of the work or the stresses involved. If you're not being paid well at your job, that's not a reason to express pointless class resentments against teachers - it's a reason to fight back in the class war waged by the owners and rulers of this system on you and the teachers and everyone else.

If this country were serious about education, it would move to raise the pay for teachers across the board to attract more of the talented people, and to hire enough teachers to reduce class size to 15. That's money. All else is talk to disguise further deterioration and active destruction of the educational system through privatization and imposed uniformity.

Take half the war budget and stick it in the schools.

[Coventina]

67. So why don't you become a teacher then?

This country has a desperate shortage of teachers, and the requirements to become one are not all that taxing.

C'mon! Join the gravy train!!!! There's plenty of room for you!!

[DuaneBidoux]

71. Your response represents poor understanding of the job.

Days that begin at 8 and end at 2? Not mine.

As a teacher I start at 7:30 in the morning and after going crazy for seven classes trying to keep my kids under control (discipline is a huge issue) I then have to grade hundreds of papers. Frequently not only do I work until after seven I often do not get done in time to avoid grading papers and doing other paper work on the weekend. You must have no comprehension of the tremendous amount of paper work that teachers must comply with.

As for my "cushy" job in the summer, it is probably 1 in 10 teachers who can afford not to find another job during the summer. I have waited tables and other jobs in the summer, but I have never yet had a free summer.

I'm sorry you work so much and get paid so little. If I were you, and you didn't really love what you are doing (I actually do like trying to impart knowledge to kids) then I would probably try to find another job. Just because you have a bad job doesn't mean it should be wished on others.

[MAGICBULLET]

128. do you think discipline is the HUGEST issue?

I'm starting to think that it probably is. My guess is that most kids are very disinterested to begin with and extedning their days would only frustrate them more. I truly feel that a good student is a result of good parenting. I'm not sure if the issue with discipline ends there, but it certainly is SO important because of the limits teachers can go to in order to effectively do their jobs.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

78. Look, I taught college, and even though my teaching load was much

lighter than the average K-12 teacher's load, I'll tell you that by the end of the term, I was crawling to the finish line.

If you're going to do the job right, it's like putting on Sesame Street every day, because even college students nowadays have short attention spans.

Furthermore, what works with students one year wont' necessarily work with the following year's group of students, so you always have to revise your lesson plans.

At spring break, which came between winter and spring quarter, I spent the first half of the week grading finals and the second half preparing for the next term.
During the summers, I either attended continuing education or did the research that college professors are expected to do for promotion and tenure.

Knowing that K-12 teachers teach twice as many classes as I did during the day and have many more behavior problems to deal with, I don't know they hold up. Anyone who teaches successfully for an entire career dserves some kind of medal.

Anyone who thinks teachers have it easy should really try it some time. The first misconception that goes straight out the door is that you can wing it.

[roody]

88. That's a part time teacher.

[Ishoutandscream2]

92. OH MY GOD

Please, come to my school and work in the classroom one day. And don't think the day is just 8 to 2.

Did you forget the sarcasm icon?

[Star]

133. Me Too!! Me Too!!

I want a job where I get 3 months off and work from 8 until 2. Do you know where I can find one?

Right now, I'm at work from 7 am until 3 pm. And then I get to go to the copy room to make copies for the next day. And sometimes, I get to go to meetings. After that, I get to go home. And grade papers (I currently have over 100 students). And write lesson plans. And write curriculum. And call parents. One 10-minute phone call to 100 parents = 1000 minutes.

Oh, yeah, on those summers off? Its actually just under 9 weeks. I attend meetings. And teach summer school. And write curriculum. and attend meetings. And take classes. And attend professional development. And call parents.

And on weekends? I make sure I have all the things I need for my classes. I buy things like aluminum foil, and baking soda, and waxed paper, and plastic containers - I usually spend over $500 per year of my own money - so that I have all the things I need for my students to do their labs correctly. You know, so they can learn in the best possible way.

I have a B.S. in Biology, an M.S. in Oceanography, and two years of additional post-graduate education and science classes. I have spent 2 years in a new-teacher program learning how to assess and aid my students' learning. I spent another intense year completing the requirements for National Board Certification, which I achieved in 2005.

Until you've actually spent at least one year teaching in a classroom, you have no idea what it entails.

[XemaSab]

157. You might could pick up the first shift at the Wal-Mart

and work 8-2. :hi:

[Star]

134. deleted by author

duplicate

[demgurl]

156. I think you forgot your sarcasm icon when you posted.

I know our teachers already are paid less than the regular school system and our school is open a half an hour longer than the regular public schools. They do not get a lunch break at all. Last year when we came back from fall break I asked the teachers how theirs was. They answered that while we got a break, they had to take a workshop and do that. To their credit, they were very excited about all the learned and applied it to their classes.

Our school lets out at 3:15 PM but I have seen teachers stay as late as 2 hour later because of parents that do not pick up their kids on time. The teachers are not paid for this time. One of our teachers has a former students whose Mom's cancer came back. Even though the student is in a much higher grade the teacher constantly drives the child home (and sometimes feeds her) since her Mom is too weak from chemo.

I have parent meetings almost every month and these are after hours and teachers are required to take turns attending, they do not get paid.

During the summer our school holds university for our teachers to keep them up on the latest techniques to help in class.

Our librarian is there everyday until at least 5 and she has to come in all summer to keep our library straight and up to snuff. As a matter of fact, I have taken on the task of charing a library committee next year so that our librarian will have help in those areas.

As far as getting three months off, our school gets about 2 1/2 months. I would love 3 months off as well but you know what is the worst part about it? Getting three months off whether you like it or not and not getting paid during your time off. The only way the teachers get paid year round is when they take less during the regular year so the money can be averaged out during summer months. I guess we could all take a summer sabbatical if we could afford it when we do not get paid.

These teachers work at night grading papers and doing up teaching plans. Teaching plans are non-optional since you need them in place in case of sudden sickness and a sub needs to fill in.

And if you think teaching is an easy job then you must never have taught. I do substitute teaching and I can tell you that it is one of the hardest things I have ever done. Kids these day have attitudes and know their way around the ropes. It is no walk in the park.

I have seen teachers do things, with children, that their parents could never get their children to do. I only wish teachers were paid more and were appreciated.

[Bonobo]

18. The same could be said of any job. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Kids and teachers get used to the job as it is given to them.

Two massive problems with education in this country.

1. Teachers are incredibly underpaid!

2. Teachers are given not nearly the respect and freedom they need to be effective. Parents should listen to and support teachers as the true "teachers" that children need as role models and not merely to teach isolated facts.

If the above 2 problems were solved, there would be less "craziness" even if the terribly wasteful and counterprodcutive 3 months summer vacation is lessened.

[MadHound]

19. Again, since you didn't address these problems before

"You would kill the tourism industry in this country, a large segment of schools don't have AC, do you actually propose that teachers work for another three months on the same pay, how in the hell to you expect teachers to work on these higher degrees that are required under NCLB unless they do it during the summer, when else are school districts supposed to get major projects and renovations done, on and on the reasons go. "

I do thank you for recognizing that teachers need more pay, respect and freedom, some here apparently consider teaching a "part time job", among other absurdities, so you're damn well enlightened.

But if you run school for a full year, teachers simply wouldn't get a break, neither would the kids. Yes, you have to go back and re-activate students' knowledge every fall, but also consider that kids are learning things even when they're out of school also. In addition, summer is used by many students to persue extracurricular activities, jobs, internships, etc. that are also important to their development and maturity.

[knight_of_the_star]

118. Exactly

Even though at the college level we have summer semesters most other students I know don't take classes over the summer so they can work and let their brains rest a bit.

[FiveGoodMen]

86. Those three-month breaks were the happiest times of my childhood.

Stop trying to take that away from the next generation.

[XanaDUer]

109. Mine, too.

Well said.

[NuttyFluffers]

105. i actually liked year round school. we still got 3 months of vacation though

it was 3 months of school, then 1 month off. three months on, one month off. continue this throughout the year. so by the time i was sick of school as a student i had 1 month of vacation to become refreshed. it was great! and it was wonderfully convenient for my folks, because instead of rushed vacations around the winter and spring holidays, we had more time for them to schedule our vacation. it was flexible.

we had a month in early winter, a month in late summer, and a month in mid spring. and since i despise summer, and hated the 2 months of mind-numbing boredom that followed the 1 month of mild fun at its start, i was ecstatic. in winter my family would run away to somewhere pleasant and linger. in spring we'd go somewhere else and linger. in summer, instead of being locked at home with the air conditioner, or forced outside to cook on the asphalt, i got to go to school, relax in the library, etc. very pleasant for me.

i have no idea whether such a condition would be hard on teachers. but i do remember we had more vacations, and better vacations, when i was in year round school. i also remember being happier because i personally hate summer, and i got to enjoy a vacation on 2 other seasons. my favorite season is fall, so my ideal would be to be in school through summer and get to enjoy the early part of fall, late spring, and mid winter (to vacation and escape the cold). but even though i didn't get that it was far more pleasant than the misery of the school year i endured here in USA.

i think year round school, as i experienced it, would benefit the tourism industry more. it would give parents more flexibility on when to schedule vacations around big holiday seasons, like early/mid winter. it would give students a break, while also bringing them back early enough where they haven't lost so much and end up in heavy review. it might even help teachers to catch a breather and catch up with their work (this i don't know). it gives students who don't fit in with the silly conception of "normality" a chance to enjoy seasons they do enjoy instead of forced to vacation in one they might not enjoy. i think it's just all around better.

having gone through semester, quarter, trimester, 3 month summer break, and year round school, i can say in full confidence that year round school was the most pleasant one for me. i probably like semester school because it's the most similar. well, it's only anecdotal experience, but considering i have experienced all these types, and many people who complain haven't, i think the concept of year round school needs to be given more consideration than it has been given in this topic. i think there's a weird knee-jerk response going on; no one is asking whether anyone had year round school and what their opinions were of it. so because of that i had to share my positive experience with year round school, which i believe addresses just about all concerns and ended up being better in every respect, in my experience, than the current system today.

my $0.02. take it for what it's worth! :D

[dysfunctional press]

114. that's how it SHOULD be- we're no longer an agrarian society-

where the kids are needed to work the farm in the summer. it's insane that so many districts still use the antiquated 3-month summer vacation schedule- it usualy means too that the first few weeks of the school year are just review and catch-up with what's been forgotten over the summer.

two things i would like to see for public schools: year-round classes, and uniforms for students.

[NuttyFluffers]

145. y'know, i despised uniforms when i had them, but now i see their wisdom

some of the nasty competitiveness and social ostracism you see elsewhere in school life was magnified when uniforms were not present. essentially the battleground for social warfare ended up being waged on your very body. not a very healthy location for such struggles i think; just slightly distracting from an education in my opinion.

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. I am a teacher and I agree

But they are going to need to air condition schools and pay me a lot more money.

So it's not going to happen.

[Crayson]

110. How about teaching FACTS

- Stop teaching fuzzy wuzzy topics, projects, etc.
- Start teaching scientific facts. Math, physics, chemistry, languages, unbiased history.

[LanternWaste]

113. Just out of curiosity...

Just out of curiosity, which are the "fuzzy-wuzzy' topics you are referring to?

Also, which schools do not have math, physics, etc. in their curriculum? I was under the impression all public schools still required those classes for graduation.

[donco6]

120. *We* do.

I don't know what fuzzy wuzzy topics he's talking about. I'd be interested finding out.

We require 4 yrs English, 3 years math and science. With everything else in the kids' schedules that's required for graduation, there isn't much time for fuzzy wuzzy.

[wakeme2008]

4. And WHO is going to pay for the cost of longer days.

:grr:

[donco6]

121. Nobody.

Schools can just suck it up, right?

I once calculated the cost of adding days to our calendar -

With 330 teachers
Average contract salary 47,500 plus 23.5% benefits = $58,663
186 day contract, daily rate = 315.39.
Cost of adding one day = $104,078.
Cost of making school truly "year round" = 265 day calendar, add 79 days
Cost = $8,222,162

On a per pupil basis, this comes to $1,468 in my district.

[qanda]

5. Kids don't need more school

They need less. Quality of hours is important and should be the focus of any changes being made to the schedule.

[OhioChick]

6. Bingo. n/t

[DixieBlue]

66. Bingo.

It shouldn't be a focus on length but on what's being taught while they're at school.

And let's lose NCLB, shall we? That's tied the hands of so many teachers.

[aroach]

72. Absolutely agree

We are homeschoolers. Our school day is not even half as long as the public school up the road yet my children are learning more.

I can't imagine what our lives would be like if they went to school. It seems we wouldn't get much time with them to do all the family things that are supposed to be so important. Wouldn't a longer school day cut down even more on time available for families to spend time together? Wouldn't it make it nearly impossible for children to pursue outside interests? I know my daughter could not have been in all the ballet preformances she has been in if she were public schooled. We were at rehearsals every night until after 9:00 p.m. for several weeks each time. She couldn't have done it if she had homework and had to get up early for school.

[qanda]

89. We home school also

There's a homeschooling group here on DU. I hope you'll stop by and check us out.

[aroach]

99. I have

I have to get a star before I can post over there but plan to as soon as I've recovered financially from the ice storm. Nothing better than meeting other homeschoolers who aren't conservative.

[demgurl]

159. Looks like you have that star and can post now.

Have a great weekend.

Demgurl

[Lydia Leftcoast]

79. Very true

When I was in high school, I had pen pals in various European countries. Their school day usually ran from 8 AM to 1PM, and their level of achievement is higher.

[Unvanguard]

95. Certainly it is a case of diminishing returns.

And certainly forcing them to do what they absolutely do NOT want is not going to make them very eager to learn.

[donco6]

122. For my district, I disagree.

I would say otherwise, if the kids went home to a warm nurturing environment full of learning and great experiences. But that's not the case here. In many cases, they're going home to their older brother or sister who has already dropped out, smoking pot, eating crap, watching TV - and that's if they're lucky. Sometimes it's home to nobody because everyone's working. Or it's home to alcoholic dad or mom - and I won't even go into what happens there.

I'd rather extend the school day, but have only part of it academic, and the extended part be more interest-based. Kids learning music or art or playing organized sports or games. Yeah, I suppose some will see it as day care. But the impact it could make on our community here is immeasurable.

[LizW]

8. Corporations pulling the strings here

Corporate America sees public education as subsidized day care for their workers, nothing more. They want a long day so parents can work more without having to take care of children.

Never mind what is best for children and families.

[Nihil]

14. That is the correct answer

> Corporate America sees public education as subsidized day care for their
> workers, nothing more. They want a long day so parents can work more
> without having to take care of children.

Very perceptive LizW! :toast:

[Megahurtz]

56. Probably.

Fuck Corporate America. :puke:

[Earth_First]

10. As a parent, I am opposed to this...

This would take away from the quality time that we spend at HOME reinforcing what our daughter learned during the day doing homework and studying.

I think that a program to stress working at home with schoolchildren after school would certainly benefit children rather than a longer school day.

[bleedingheart]

41. The problem is that a lot of parents are not like you and me..

a lot of parents don't do anything with their kids.

How do you change that?

It is rather hard to give people the incentive to help their own offspring. There are parents out there who seem to fall into a Social Darwinist category...they just feed em and shelter em...otherwise the kid is on his/her own.

[roody]

90. Kids who have quality time at home

with their parents reinforcing their education are already doing well in school.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

11. say, let's make a 26 hour day. And increase the time at skule.

This debate reminds me of a conversation I was having in Indiana, about increasing the length of the school year. In the background was some local talk radio. The issue was daylight savings time. Some farmer called in and said, "I can't afford Daylight Savings. If during harvest, I leave my crops out in the sun for an extra hour, they'll burn up."
Of course, this was Indiana.

[Thothmes]

13. School

I fully agree with extending the school day. I also fully support expanding the 180 days of class room instruction to a minimum of 210 days of class room instruction. Actually 220 days would be ideal. Of course this would meet fierce resistance from the educational universe. I had read recently that U.S. students spend less time in school the most of the industrialized countries in the world.

[Nihil]

15. Well, they certainly seem to learn less in school ...

BTW, is there really a place called "Hmpton" in Virginia? :P

[MadHound]

17. Of course it would meet fierce resistance

Because gee, you would extend teacher's twelve to fourteen hour days as well. Don't you think that they at least deserve eight hours of sleep, and an hour or two with their families every day?

And as far as extending the school year goes, if you do that, when are teachers supposed to get those mandated post grad degrees? When are they supposed to get a jump on the next year, attend mandated seminars, conferences and training sessions? When are they supposed to go on vacation, even for two weeks?

I just love it when people who have little or no clue what goes on behind the scenes in a school deem that they know what is best for school. Thats probably the largest part of the problem with our education system these days, people who don't know the situation trying to correct it.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

20. if every kid HAD to do 1.5 hours of sports, every day,

a couple of things would happen.
they would be healthier
they would be more alert in class
they would learn better practices for life.

but, naw, that won't happen

[MadHound]

23. Sadly that, like many other childhood practices, used to be taken care of at home

When I was a kid, we didn't watch TV, didn't play on computers, didn't have NESs or anyother gaming system. Instead, we got out in the fresh air, played games, ran around with our friends, biked all over, etc. etc. No, it wasn't sports per say(though I remember many many games of baseball, football and basketball) but it was exercise and it was fun. It burned up energy and kept us healthy.

Now you go through entire areas of towns and suburbs where families live, and you won't see a single kid outside. And while I can understand this in some neighborhoods with high crime, you see this phenomenon everywhere. What you will see is that flickering blue glow behind the curtains, as kids play on the computer or the television.

I agree that kids need exercise every day, but I don't think that the schools need one more thing pushed off from the parent's plate onto the school's plate. Besides, god forbid, if a kid falls down and receives a minor injury out in the back yard, Mom takes care of it and the kid plays on. Many times when this happens at school, the school nurse takes care of it and Mom and Dad sue the school district:eyes:

Parents have absolutely got to take more responsibility for their children. Rather than parking them in front of a tube as a convient babysitter, turn off the electronics and kick the kid out the door to play. Gee, it worked well for hundreds of years, why not now?:shrug:

[Megahurtz]

57. No, we used to have Sports at School too

and it was a positive motivation. I remember it.

[ProudDad]

102. The big problem in my urban neighborhood

is that there's no place to play -- it's all asphalt or what "vacant lots" there are have a very high chain link fence around it.

So, thanks to the profit margin caused by the phony "war on drugs" the kids learn to mule at an early age. I walked out of my house this morning and spied a training session with a couple of older kids - about 15 or so - teaching a kid who looked about 11 or 12 how to smoke cigarettes and mule for the dealer.

Then you had the lack of funding (and space) for sports and, maybe even MORE egregious the arts at school.

Couple that with wasting so much teaching time on cramming for the Fed/State mandated bullshit tests and

...It's a wonder to me any kids make it at all.

[JackRiddler]

52. If schools served up a freshly cooked, healthy diet

with no junk food - for breakfast and lunch - to all pupils - and had sports as you describe every day - and if they hired more teachers and raised the pay - the entire educational problem would solve itself.

What's the obstacle? What is it really all about? MONEY.

[NuttyFluffers]

107. i had that, but not in USA public schools

had it in private schools or schools in another country.

i guess i was healthier... i was never really that healthy. even when my folks forced me into extra curricular sports. i really hated gym and EC sports. hated it. i can't really describe how much hate i had for it. it was horrible. perhaps some of the worst experiences of my life were when i was stuck in those hours of sports. still hold an abiding dislike for pretty much all things sports to this day, which i'm trying to work on toning down. i think the forced athletics had something to do with it.

i know i wasn't more alert in class. i was usually petrified in the class before about the horrors coming up in PE or after school in EC sports. and after sports i was hot, sweaty, grouchy, and generally in no mood to be around people. i was on the verge of crying i was so miserable and had to bite back tears often. so no, i was not more alert in class.

and i don't think i learned a single good practice for life in sports. it was completely miserable. i learned not to share. hold my feelings in. weakness is evil and must be abused to shape up. competition is greater than cooperation; and even within teams it's best to compete to be the star. learned hierarchy. learned about abusive coaches, un-supportive adults, and cruel taunting adults, all of whom probably should have known better. i learned about ostracism. i learned that my (mild) physical handicap and moderate excess weight equals pariah because i cannot possibly add anything to "the win." i learned that winning is everything and 1st runner up is 1st loser. learned that kindness leads to loss, playfulness equals waste of time, and deviation from standard form does not mean experimentation but equals a weird desire to explore the 'obviously inferior' techniques. i am rather saddened, because as i sit here i'm struggling to think of even a single good practice for life i learned in sports. i do not think i can find one. perhaps i am the one who is flawed.

anyway, i do remember something amusing. one time i and others who didn't really want to participate in PE were milling about. the teacher was upset, and at the end said that if we didn't want to be there we could go to the library instead. it was said as a threat, as if it would be a punishment to go in a nice comfortable room with AC and couches filled with books. he asked if that is what we wanted, and looking at the shudders from the jocular types it apparently was a dreaded thing. he said we would go there and have to do book reports for him instead of PE, if we so wanted out of there -- this raised an even more horrified shudder in some of the gathered -- and to raise our hand and off we could go for the rest of the term during each PE class. well, i was about to raise my hand, and seeing that the teacher saw me raising my hand, he added a caveat: it would have to be a book report each week. well, i was still continuing to raise my hand, but then he switched to a book report each day. i paused. i knew perfectly well, i couldn't do a book report each and every day, eventually the easier books would run out. but i really, really, really, really hated the sports we had to do for PE. i was so torn. and then he added that those book reports would add to our grade. knowing at best i could get a C if i stayed, they tended to pass everyone, and possibly fail if i didn't, because that is way too many book reports, i knew my answer. not knowing at the time that PE had no bearing on my GPA for future admissions at schools, i capitulated fully, much to my disgrace. it was a sterling opportunity to escape from the dread of sports, but my GPA was precious in my mind to get me into my desired school and thus my desired future. i felt like my future was being held hostage to make a point, and i caved because i had no other choice. and that was the really nice PE teacher! he was just having a real bad day. but still, my day was worse, especially looking back and realizing what an opportunity i passed up....

[fshrink]

26. 185 days in France

with 26 to 30 hours class-time per week from middle-school to high-school.

[kath]

30. more hours, and pushing the curriculum down into earlier and earlier grades will NOT

help.
Heck, in the Scandinavian countries, they don't teach reading until age SEVEN (and aren't allowed to), and their literacy rates are WAY higher than ours. Here, we're trying to force 5 year-olds (and even 4 year olds) to learn reading, way before most of them are ready. Worksheets in the pre-K and kdgn - argh! Forcing academics on kids before they're developmentally ready only stresses them out and makes them hate learning at an earlier and earlier age. (a US study, back in the 50s or 60s confirmed the Scandinavian results - one group was started on reading instruction in 1st grade, the other not until 2nd grade. Guess which group read more for pleasure as teens??)

And I read the other day that in Germany, schools let out around 1 p.m.

[aroach]

73. Depends on the child

My barely four year old reads fluently and has for some time. He started reading at two. He wanted to - no one pushed him.

My eight year old is not as good a reader as her baby brother. She is just now starting to get interested in reading and getting up to the grade level she should be at according to the "experts".

Both children are fine. They are indidviduals with different strengths and weaknesses, different interests and motivations. I'm willing to bet that when both are adults you won't be able to tell who was the early reader and who was the late bloomer.

[donco6]

124. Unfortunately, we're all measured on a "straight line" progression.

If we don't get the kids to all perform uniformly, and progress in their performance on a straight line, we're labeled as "failing". NCLB does this.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

80. Yes, that jibes with what I hear from European relatives

Also, remember the big bad Soviets? The ones who were supposed to be such academic superstars? They didn't teach kids to read until age 7 either.

[FiveGoodMen]

87. Let's not stop there.

Chain the little rug-rats to their desks. Give them a bed-pan within reach. Wire their seats and shock them if they look away from their books. How dare the little brats think they should have fun. Life isn't fun. It's time they got used to it! At the very least, let's do a survey and make sure that American kids have the least free time of any children in the world. That'll show 'em.

[all.of.me]

21. try teaching them something INTERESTING!

or in an interesting fashion. the kids are failing probably because they are BORED! why do they think kid are stupid when they are usually just bored?! if they are interested, they will soak it up like sponges.

[bemildred]

24. The schools are not "failing" because the school day is too short.

So there is no chance at all that this sort of "reform" will "fix" them.

[The2ndWheel]

25. We should just ship the kids to live there

More parents are working more anyway. Barely enough time to spend with the kids as it is. If the parents just have the kid, then leave the hospital, and the next time they see the child is in 18-22 years(although I'm sure that will have to increase too), when they'll be ready to begin the process of full productivity for society, why not just cut out the middle man?

Sure, the money saved there would be spent on the taxes for the underground education center, where children are kept in a sterile environment, only allowed to learn the required 16.5 hours a day(leaving a good 30 minutes for lunch, 6 hours for sleep, and an hour prep time), and everything is padded so that no injury can harm the student.

Wait...crap...I've said too much.

[snooper2]

27. Hell yes...

Maybe in about 20 years we could catch up with the Chinese in education. Give all of the teachers a 10K a year raise, and they can have a 2 week break for Christmas and a 2 week break in Spring.

Oh, and take the fucking cell phones away. 10 year olds with cell phones...jeesh

[Akoto]

28. Indeed, wonderful idea!

Less time for kids to be kids, more time for teachers to be overworked and underpaid. Think of all the extra standardized testing we could cram into that time! What's not to love?

[ramapo]

31. Beyond hope

Our education system is so screwed up and wacky solutions like this just go to show that we are beyond hope.

The real problems:

Teach to the test is mandatory given the explosion of standardized testing

Basics are no longer taught. Subjects like spelling, grammar, geography have been dropped in favor of foreign languages, etc. in the lower grades.

Music and art are widely considered to be a waste.

Teaching, for the most part, does not attract the best and the brightest. It is not a respected profession.

Teachers are delusional in thinking how rough they have it. Yes, it is a difficult job. Yes, there are many problems. Yes, they have many perks.

School funding is discriminatory.

School administrations grow and grow at the expense of teaching staff.

Teachers get little support from administrators or parents.

Parents complain if their poor children are expected to work too hard.

Advanced placement, gifted programs, etc. have become a joke as these are watered down so the number of qualifying students is pumped up.

Little is done for students not making it.

Underlying social problems negate much of what is done for children in the poorer districts.

and so on....

[hedgehog]

32. Yes, yes, what we are doing now is not working, so let's do more of it!

The elephant in the room that no one will address is that the school system we have works perfectly fine for some of the kids. If the home environment emphasizes learning, the kids learn. If there is any problem at all in the home environment, then the kid is lost to the system by about 2nd grade.

The state recently declared my children's' high school as "In need of Improvement" The principal complained that the label was unfair, that two sub groups, poor kids and special needs kids, were the problem and that everyone else was doing fine. Talk about missing the point!

We need to make sure that all the kids are being reached. Instead of all the tests that are driving middle class parents into a frenzy, how about limiting the first few grades to a class size of 10 or 5 or even 1 on 1 until every child is taught basic arithmetic, basic reading skills and imbued with curiosity about the world. That wouldn't cost anymore than we're spending now, but it would limit the opportunity for profits by all the companies trying to sell tests and other gimmicks to our schools!

[gravity]

34. Exactly

If people aren't willing to work, then they aren't going to benefit from longer school days.

I believe the person's home life and if they are raised to value learning affects school achievement the most. Part of the reason for the achievement gap is that parents from upper middle class backgrounds place a higher emphasis on education, since the parents got to where they are in life from education.

If you can't get kids interested in learning and value education then no amount of money or schools hours is going to change it.

[hedgehog]

36. I don't think it's a case of the kids not wanting to work, but as you said later in the post, .

a question of attitude and values. There is an entire group of people who see no value whatsoever to eduction. Both the kids and the parents see schooling as an arbitrary interference with their daily lives that must be tolerated until age 16 or high school graduation. Years ago, you could muddle through school and get a decent job in a factory somewhere. Now, even a secretary must have two years of Community College! (Oddly enough, wages haven't risen to reflect the stricter hiring standards!). I've seen parents who can't/don't/won't read sabotage "higher" standards by encouraging their children to pass Junior High Spanish with a 66. After all, why does anyone need to know a second language to work at a warehouse? Meanwhile, the NYS Regents (our state school board) proudly reports that every high school graduate in the state has 2 years of a foreign language!

(As an aside, as a result of the new language requirement, I think it's hard to get a decent Spanish course since Spanish as supposedly the easiest language so the classes are filled with kids with no interest in learning!)

[bleedingheart]

42. No one wants to deal with the elephant

it is far to painful to realize that the communities that have the worst school performances are those that have no hope for the future....

Job losses
Lack of healthcare
Lack of nutritional food
Lack of any hope of escaping these situations
A community overwhelmed and depressed by circumstances
...that is the recipe for ignorance.

For some kids the school system is the only stability they have...the only place where they get hot meals and time with an adult...(even if they have to share it with 20+) other kids in the class.


Ah if we only spent as much time and money on our children as we do on building up the defense industry...

[Megahurtz]

58. Right On! n/t

[dolo amber]

54. ...

:thumbsup:

[DuaneBidoux]

74. I teach and you've hit the nail on the head.

I teach in a title one ("disadvantaged") district. The kids come ill prepared and it is quickly obvious that most parents are struggling themselves just to live normal lives.

For these kids extra time in school might indeed be beneficial, but only because it means they will be spending less time where most of the damage is being done: home.

My 13 year old goes to a district where at least 65% of the parents have college degrees. I have visited my son's school on many occasions and can tell you that it is a different world. Are the schools really that much different? Not really.

I am against more time in general because it will not solve the problem of low performing kids or schools. As it is kids are being worked to death in many districts. It is not unusual for my 7th grader to have 3 hours of homework a night. I think this is idiocy. Kids also need time to be kids. He is now reading books (Moby Dick, Charles Dickens, etc.) that I read in college. Even if he can read the words it is simply impossible for the mind of a 7th grader to grasp the concepts in the books because they simply don't understand enough about the world yet.

One of the biggest problems with NCLB is that it treats all kids the same and demands 100% compliance. All kids are simply not, and never will be, the same. There are kids who will never do well at advanced reading or math, and instead of trying to force feed these materials with a system that will never meet the needs they will have as adults we need to customize their education to make the most of what they can do well with skills that are needed in society.

[treestar]

112. Exactamundo, they keep blaming the schools for what is

really a non-school issue. Schools now have to keep kids they used to be able to kick out. Not that kicking them out is the solution, but all the accomodation made to them makes the school look like it is not doing well. Which is not really fair. Not every kid is a genius or even average. Because they do more to try to help those on the bottom, they "look" like they are not doing well because it still only goes so far.

[donco6]

125. Yes, it would cost a lot more.

I don't know how your math works, but lowering class size to 1:1 would cost millions.

Example: Currently we staff at about 23:1 in elementary. Average teacher salary is around $58,650 with benefits. We have about 1500 kids in 1st through 3rd grade. At the ratio we would normally have 65 teachers. With your scenario we would have 1,500! You do the math.

[MAGICBULLET]

129. very true

what you say about the select few that aren't reached at a very young age, which is such an important part of their lives in terms of schooling and the path they tend to follow. the first few grades shouldn't have such big classes and reducing the size of the classroom generally would be something I'd be interested in hearing what teachers think of.

[anotherdrew]

33. so where are these bright lights going to find the second shift of teachers?

or are the teachers just going to be forced to work what... 11 hour days?

[Yavin4]

35. I Believe In Nationalized Public Education, A Longer School Day For Older Kids, A Longer School Year

I would federalize all public education in America, and I would pay all teachers the same as a federal worker with higher education credentials and special compensation for geographic areas.

I would extend the school day and year for grades 7-12. The school year would begin in Sept. and end in July, with the month of August off for vacations.

I would re-build ALL public schools in America so that they'd have air conditioning and better computer networks.

And how would I pay for this? Well, if we can magically find $1 trillion to fight a useless, illegal war in Iraq, then why not do this?

[Megahurtz]

59. What You Said WITHOUT Longer days for ANYONE.

No one needs longer days. The days are already long enough.

The schools need shorter, more quality hours.

[Roland99]

38. I wouldn't mind it if the day was 2hrs longer and kids got help with h/w and studying.

Plus, lose the 3 months off in summer and have a 2-week Spring Break, Summer, Fall Break, and Winter Break.

[MadHound]

45. And again, when are teachers supposed to have some down time

Either during the day, or during the school year? The vast majority of teachers are already working twelve hour days, two more hours of school would mean three more hours of work for the teacher(extra grading, prep time, etc.). Not to mention the extra time taken up on the weekends.

In addition, while this two week break every three months might work well for the children, it would ruin teachers' careers. Where are we supposed to find the time to get post grad degrees(which are mandatory)? When are we going to find time to prep for an entire year? When are we going to find time for continuing education, conferences, seminars, etc. which are indeed mandated, and the sensible thing to do if a teacher is to advance in their career and serve their students. Not to mention simply destressing from work.

These plans all sound great and grand to the lay person, but in real life it would lead to disaster. Besides, kids need to be kids once in awhile, not always being little automatons on the clock in school. And some of your a child's best learning experiences take place outside the school enviroment.

Yes, education has some serious problems. Mandating longer school years won't solve a single one of them.

[Roland99]

46. I work 12hr days myself, including the commute. Where's my downtime?

[MadHound]

47. Do you work on the weekends as well?

Are you expected to get continuing education, including post-grad degrees? And why do you think that it is justifiable for teachers to work twelve to fifteen hours days simply because you do?

You know, I think quite frankly that any teacher would take a five day, twelve hour a day week over what they work. I would suggest sometime that you actually go find out what a teacher's real workload is.

[Roland99]

49. A friend of mine teaches science in Middle School. My sister teaches ECP.

If 2hrs a day (at least in our district) makes or breaks someone's career, then perhaps they shouldn't be a teacher.

My daughter's school hours are 7:40am - 2:20pm. I understand there needs to be time to grade tests and papers but assistants are available to help, too. There are many districts in this nation that do year-round schooling, too.

And why not get that Masters degree or beyond before teaching? See any doctors doing surgery before they get their PhD?


Oh, and yes, I do work weekends. 2 of the last 3 Sundays (one of them ended up being about 7hrs' worth).

[MadHound]

63. Assistants? What assistants? Where are you getting assistants

Around here the teacher's assistants are me, myself and I. You must live in one mighty fine school district to afford assistants.

Why not ask your wife or friend if they want another three hours(two hours in class, one hour prep, finish time) to her work day. Especially for the same pay they're getting now.

Gee, you had to work seven hours on Sundays. Poor t'ing. Welcome to my world each and every weekend day, week end, week out.

And frankly most people have neither the time nor the cash to do a master's degree straight out of college. Thus they go into work and pick up the degree along the way, during their off times in the summer. Oh, and don't forget those mandatory seminars and conferences and other continuing ed teachers have to go to during the summer.

[LibDemAlways]

69. I taught for five years back in the early 80's.

Everything you've said is true and then some.

Teaching damn near cost me my marriage as I had no time in the evening or on most weekends to spend with my spouse. What little conversation we had focused on how horrific my job was. I had to get out for the sake of my sanity.

Also, so many children today come from difficult home situations that teachers end up being social workers as well. I have a good teacher friend who always has a fresh horror story about the living conditions her students endure.

I have nothing but respect for teachers. I make it a point to write notes to my daughter's teachers letting them know I appreciate the work they do. Teaching is truly one of the most difficult and least understood professions.

[ProudDad]

103. Just because this is how you choose to waste YOUR life

"Oh, and yes, I do work weekends. 2 of the last 3 Sundays (one of them ended up being about 7hrs' worth)."

Doesn't mean that most of us would consider it a waste of ours...


Your post sounded a lot like our old buddy D.H. Rumsfeld: "I stand up 10-12 hours a day, I don't see why those prisoners at Guantanamo and Abu Graib can't be forced to stand up too."

[Yavin4]

50. I Work in Information Technology, and Yes to All of Your Questions

My work day has no end. I carry a blackberry, and I can be paged at any time and put to work. In fact, it happened last night. In addition, I take evening classes to keep up on the skills that the market demands.

Most professionals have to work beyond the typical work day and take classes to keep up with their skills.

[MadHound]

64. Now then try doing your job with thirty kids in tow, then get back to me n/t

[dysfunctional press]

115. one question- who was it that FORCED you to become a teacher..?

if it sucks so badly for you- you should probably find a career that's better suited for you.

[MadHound]

146. Why do you go around looking like the Borg with a Blackberry stuck in your ear?

Why do you work what you do?

Oh yeah, you love your job.

Same deal here pal, same deal. There is a great deal of personal satisfaction that comes from watching the lights go on in kids eyes and brain. That's why there are still teachers in this country, because you're right, it certainly isn't the pay or working conditions that keep us going.

[dysfunctional press]

155. i don't.

i'm retired.

and for someone who loves their job so much, you sure seem to do a lot of bitching about it.

[Scout]

123. "thirty kids in tow"

but, I thought you took your work home, and worked weekends ... do you take those 30 kids with you?

Perhaps you could work smarter and/or more efficiently and then it wouldn't take you so long to do your job?

[MadHound]

147. Aren't you just too cute

If I wasn't working smart and efficient, I wouldn't be getting my job done at all. You really should try and teach sometime. My bet is that you would run screaming within an hour. You, like so many other Americans, simply don't have a clue.

By the by, how would you like to have your wage, working conditions, job description all controlled by the public at large who don't have a clue about what you do and how you do it? Arbitrarily setting rules and benchmarks that have no basis in reality or knowledge of what your job entails. Do you think that's an efficient or proper way to run a business?

[Scout]

149. you don't know anything about me. I HAVE tought for a living.

you just have a huge chip on your shoulder.

About your wage, working conditions, and job description ... where is your teacher's union?

Many people's jobs and working conditions are determined by "rules and benchmarks that have no basis in reality" (which is YOUR opinion).

[roody]

91. Do they do it for 30-60K per year?

[ProudDad]

104. And I used to work in Information Technology

and I wouldn't work like that on a bet...

I've been a freelance programmer since the mid-80's and I REFUSED to work more than 30 hours a week. Of course, before our work was outsourced to India, etc., I didn't have to work more than 30 hours a week to make a decent living.

-------------------

I heard today on Thom Hartmann's show that if you divided the total wealth in the U.S. by the number of people a family of four would make $170,000 per year. The problem isn't not working enough hours it's working too many and not getting a fair share.

The point is that there's enough wealth so that NO ONE would have to work such stupid hours unless they really wanted to.

-------------------

FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
I was happier then and I had nothin'. We used to live in this tiny old house with great big holes in the roof.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
House! You were lucky to live in a house! We used to live in one room, all twenty-six of us, no furniture, 'alf the floor was missing, and we were all 'uddled together in one corner for fear of falling.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Eh, you were lucky to have a room! We used to have to live in t' corridor!
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
Oh, we used to dream of livin' in a corridor! Would ha' been a palace to us. We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish tip. We got woke up every morning by having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us! House? Huh.

http://www.phespirit.info/montypython/four_yorkshiremen.htm

[hedgehog]

77. Think about that the next time you hear someone criticizing the unions!

Unions - the people who brought us the week-end!

[qanda]

60. It's just amazing to me how little regard people have for teachers

Reading through this thread has been very eye-opening. I am beginning to believe that people want teachers to raise their kids for them. And I say this as a home schooling parent.

I take my hat off to any teacher that is dedicated and committed to their classroom and students. You all do deserve a break. Spending time with children is different than spending time with a Blackberry or a computer. It takes a lot out of you and you do need time to refresh and to prepare. Perhaps every parent should attempt to home school their children, even for a couple of months. They will get a new appreciation for what teachers have to do every single day.

[MadHound]

62. I've been seeing this attitude become increasingly prevalent throughout so called Democratic circles

Dems spewing the same talking points as 'Pugs, that teaching is a well paid, cushy, part time job, that we need better teachers, longer school days, more testing, all the same garbage that one finds on the right. Dems eating their own, since teachers have been on of the strongest Dem voting blocs for decades now. Yet somehow we're still unfit or unworthy.

I would love for some of these people to go through the education process it takes to become a teacher, and then to spend one day, one single day in a classroom. My bet would be that they flee screaming within the first three hours.

People somehow equate this with a lot of other jobs, it isn't. Like you said, spending time with a classroom of children is utterly unlike spending it in front of a computer or with a Blackberry.

They simply don't have a clue.

Thanks for your support.

[RiverStone]

136. Hot off the press - Teachers rated 2nd hardest job to fill in U.S.!

Just out today on MSNBC:

Attention job-seekers and college grads: Your best chance of getting a job may be to consider a career in sales, teaching or as a mechanic.

A survey released Thursday by temporary staffing agency Manpower Inc. says that U.S. employers counted those as the top three hardest jobs to fill in 2007.

<snip>

George Jackson, a spokesman for the American Federation of Teachers, said he thinks it has long been difficult to recruit and keep teachers in districts where poverty, crime and behavior problems are rampant. That’s partly because of wages, he said, but teachers in those areas also complain that they don’t receive enough support and professional development.

Jackson also noted that between 40 percent and 50 percent of teachers leave the profession within five years.

“Teacher retention is a problem, because this is a profession that’s difficult,” he said.

<snip>

more:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17858379/

* * * * * * * * *

Good link to send to teacher-bashers who say the job is cush. Then why is it one of the hardest jobs to fill in the U.S. :shrug:

[Igel]

44. Better use of current hours won't cut it, for the most part.

The key is "in schools struggling to meet expectations."

Some of the schools have lower per-student funding, but that's usually because they have smaller tax bases. But even in those schools there has been a very sharp increase in per-student funding, with little difference. As the recent California report said, higher per-student expenditures doesn't show a real correlation with higher student achievement. Increase teacher pay, you get better paid teachers; over time, you might attract better teachers--but until then, all you're doing is paying the teachers you have more for the same quality output they've been providing (or do we want to say that teachers are doing a lousy job on purpose, sort of a work slow-down?).

Sometimes it's the subjects that are taught. Sometimes the methodologies. Sometimes the students are depressed, say, because there are cracks in the walls and broken windows, and who can work under those conditions (but then I'd be talking about my graduate program at UCLA, one of the best in the country ... oops).

The schools need more hours and days to replace the parents. For those parents' kids, day care makes a big difference--it mostly closes the gap between their kids' pre-school achievement and those of kids from other cultures and socio-economic classes. But by fourth grade the gap reappears. The response: Continue playing nanny to the kids, having the teachers be paid parent surrogates.

[Yavin4]

53. The Larger Issue Is Counseling and Issues At Home

The key to better achievement among students is access to better counseling and creating a positive learning environment at home. These are tricky issues, but that's the key to achievement, parental involvement and home stability. I went to somewhat sub-standard public schools in Washington, D.C., but I still achieved in life because of my parents' involvement in my education.

[The2ndWheel]

48. The biggest problem is time

We have more to do, but less time to do it. We're still human, so we still need rest and time to just flat out relax. We are able to do more things quicker these days, but that just gives us the ability to do more of what we were already doing, and that needs to be done quicker.

Worst invention of all time? The clock.

Actually, the biggest problem is that we're still human. We're not machines yet. We can't sit there all day and learn, or sit there all day and work. That's the problem that needs fixing, our limited animal existence. The schools, once we fix that core problem, will take care of themselves.

Wait...yeah...no, wait...yeah, yeah, yeah, the biggest problem is that we're human. Absolutely.

[Megahurtz]

55. Longer Days? That's Bullshit!

The U.S. Schools will only become worse than they already are.

[AnneD]

65. Let me propose....

Anne's Crazy Education Policy:

Since we generally spend more per person on prisoners than students, I propose that every child in the the US be sentenced to at least 19 years of hard education (from head start to college or vocational training) and they can be remanded to their parents daily if deemed appropriate.
All schools will be designated as minimal security penal institutions (which will finally settle our truth in advertising discrepancies). Imagine it now...Shady Grove Elementary Prison, or Johnson Middle Prison and Houston High Security Prison.

Those children failing to be promoted to their next level will be subject to tighter security and more intense education. Our Supermax education facilities will crank out literate prisoner that not only can conjugate verbs but balance their checkbooks too. These prisoner students have paid their debt to society and are ready to give back. Parents will appreciated the fact that their children are incarcerate to their fullest potential and emerge productive citizens, teachers will appreciate the increased pay AND class room discipline, and society will benefit from less juvenile delinquency by getting tough on crime.

It's a thought-twisted maybe, but a thought.

[Supersedeas]

68. Long day but less pay for teachers and tax cuts to maintain the facilities

[JCMach1]

75. Why not just let them be managed by the prison system...?

Same concept... keep 'em there all day and night! That'll learn 'em

[NotGivingUp]

152. my sentiments exactly!

[JCMach1]

76. This will never pass because it costs too much!

American's hate paying for education...

They won't raise taxes to do it... nor, will they raise taxes to improve the schools... There's the rub!

[rainbow4321]

81. One thing that worries me is...

that I had to find this info on **WebIndia**. Granted I try to avoid US MSM but has anyone seen this proposal being reported as headline news...seen any of the talking heads have segments on it, etc..?
I worry it will be done under the radar **because** they know there will be protests.
A couple years ago here in TX, a new proposed bill suddenly popped up in the news..pretty much was a done deal. It made a state law that schools couldn't start in the Fall til the end of August, no ifs/ands/buts, no waivers allowed (districts previously could apply for a waiver to start earlier). Lawmakers kept this info waaayyyy under the public radar til it passed. Turns out they were more concerned with the tourism lobbyists who wanted an extra month of vacationing TX families than they were worried about what local school districts wanted. Hence, they kept it all low-key.
Is the same happening here?? Having found this buried on an Indian webpage suggests to me that maybe it is?

[KamaAina]

83. Well, the WebIndia piece was based on an NY Times article

for those of you registered with the Paper of Record(TM), it's here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/26/us/26schoolday.html?ref=education

Really, must we indoctrinate school-age children into the world of semi-permanent cubicle residents we've made for ourselves?

[JackDragna]

82. Boy, this is just what I need.

I teach for a living and I have no time to myself. No time to socialize with friends. No time to work out. No time to idle for more than half an hour or so a day. On top of time I spend at my job, grading papers, creating lessons plans and supervising activities, I have nothing. I don't go out on the weekends anymore. You're expected, at my school, to have every assignment graded within two days of receiving it, even if it's a huge paper. Even if it's something that 100 of your students turned in.

The problem isn't the time in school. It's the motivation of the students, the drive of the parents to get their students to take education seriously and the dull, lifeless curriculum we're forced to teach. If I have to work longer hours, I'll kill myself.

[KamaAina]

84. What if we took the $$$ for thse longer days and put it into real reform?

from the NYT article on which the OP was based:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/26/us/26schoolday.html?pagewanted=2&ref=education

And of all the steps school districts take to try to improve student achievement, lengthening the day is generally the costliest — an extra $1,300 a student annually here in Massachusetts — and difficult to sustain.

An extra $1300 a student could go a long way toward enhancing the classroom experience within its current timeframe.

[judaspriestess]

85. when I was in school we went from 8:00 till about 3:30

now I see kids getting out at noon, wtf is up with that. gives these kids more time on their hands to most likely get themselves in trouble.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

98. 7:45 - 2:30 around here

Same as when I was a kid.

Maybe kids get out at noon for work/study programs?

[NuttyFluffers]

108. my high school had the same

i actually was an "early bird" at one school -- a USA public school -- where kids get out at noon. i was only 'early bird' for a day though. it was reserved for... well, the best i could determine at the time as a child, was at *that* particular school "early bird schedules" were for the 'not so bright' children. apparently all the more challenging material (and it wasn't challenging at all, everyone should have been able to do it) was taught after those students left. never understood that. basically my early bird classmates learned that an apple is part of the fruits and vegetable food group, and how to write one's letters. it was an embarrasingly simplistic curriculum, even with staying the whole day as a 'late bird'. i actually remember coming back to my parents deeply insulted having to experience such remedial education and argued to them that my "early bird" day was an absolute educational waste of time. they were a bit surprised and amused, to say the least. the truly sad thing was that not one of those children were noticeably children of special needs. i remember talking to them during recess and they were functioning at a relatively average level that i could tell. but i was a child, perhaps they had dyslexia (even though there were a few 'late birds' with dyslexia that i was aware of) or high functioning autism (which having seen before i would have still figured out). i honestly don't know, i'll just chalk it up to being a really bad school.

[donco6]

141. Look at a typical teacher contract.

They usually span a 7.5 hour day. They get one period for plan time. They require a 40-ish minute duty free lunch. Then there has to be time for staff meetings and training time (which has to be within the school day, because there's no money to pay for it on extra duty time.) It adds up. Our schools usually run for about 6.5 hours - maybe 7, depending on the program.

[Unvanguard]

93. Yeah, right.

Because everyone knows that making kids sit in classrooms longer will make them MORE likely to pay attention.

:eyes:

[slowry]

94. Less hours, more Feynmans n/t

[DemGa]

96. They need better quality, not more quantity

It's already like a full-time job for kids...with homework!!

[OKthatsIT]

101. Less hours, better teachers...let them get outside and play, too

Its sad what public policies have turned into.

Vaccinations should be a choice...after much scrutiny.

They don't own our schools or our way of parenting.

[NotGivingUp]

153. yes, yes, and yes! quit making prisoners of the children!

they want to start the imprisonment as early as possible and continue it until we're dead. i'm sick of their shit.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

97. I wonder what would happen if they cut the hours, and doubled the number of teachers...

Smaller class size just makes sense.

I know it's impractical from a babysitting service standpoint to have a shorter school day; but the hours are the same as they were when I was in school, my parents before me.

[dysfunctional press]

117. well, for one thing- doubling the number of teachers would mean HUGE property tax increases

so it's doubtful that it would ever happen.

and as we've maitained the same school calender/schedule- the rest of the industrial world has been passing us by.

i do agree though, that class size is one of the most important factors in the quality of education.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

130. Why the huge property tax increase?

If they shortened the teacher's work day, they'd be paying less in salaries. Maybe they could even try keeping the same number of teachers for the same pay, and cut the hours for students in half.

[donco6]

138. What would parents do with their kids for the other 1/2 day?

Most of our parents work - both mom and dad. They depend on school to keep their kids while they're away. Cutting school hours would be a huge financial hardship for them - and a regressive tax at that.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

142. Certainly that's an element, but other countries fund after school activities

such as sports, art, and music lessons, which would serve to enrich kids' education.

[donco6]

127. What teacher would work part time?

More staff but less total hours would mean a salary cut for teachers. Ours begin at 34,000 now - I don't think they can even THINK about making it on less.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

Another possibility...

Keep teachers on for the same number of hours, and offer am and pm classes, like they do for kindergarten. Fewer hours, smaller classes, more individualized attention, and more manageable class size = a better working and learning environment.

[donco6]

139. Just staggering teacher days wouldn't mean smaller classes.

The only way to get smaller class sizes is to add teachers. There's just no way around it. And I can tell you that - at about $58,000 a pop (45,700 avg salary plus 23.5% benefits), we just can't afford it on what we're given in funding.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

144. It would if kids attended half the day...

and teachers had two classes each day.

More funding is a good idea, too.

[piedmont]

100. That would be the last straw for us.

We plan on having kids in the next few years, and we're debating the public school/ private school/ home school options. If public schools extended their day I think we'd cross them off the list entirely.

[treestar]

111. Why don't they do it by eliminating gym and sports

We used to have pep rallies during seventh period.

We had a lot of free time in high school, also.

Music, art, and all the other enrichment type of thing would be better to eliminate than to lengthen the day. The teachers could still be employed by those subjects being offered after school.

it would probably be more convenient to working parents if kids stayed in school until 5 p.m.

[knight_of_the_star]

119. How about no

"Music, art, and all the other enrichment type of thing would be better to eliminate than to lengthen the day. The teachers could still be employed by those subjects being offered after school."

If you're going to eliminate all those things than whats the point aside from cramming facts into their heads? Kids need outlets for creativity and to find out what kind of a person they are, not just to be little robots. Some of the best times I had in HS were in music classes thankyoumuch.

[donco6]

126. Ugh - NO!

I've seen districts that did this, and they are DEAD places. Horrible. I would NEVER send my kid there.

[treestar]

131. But it doesn't have to be in school

It could be an after school thing, like the French Club and stuff like that.

I don't think those schools could have been "dead." It's not as if those things are essentials, that's why they are extras. It would be crazy if the extras were considered to be the entire foundation of the school.

Then the parents and the kids have more choice, too, they can decide from more things - Why do kids have to get grades in art, music and gym?

[donco6]

137. I just couldn't possibly disagree more.

Not "essentials"? Music and art are required subjects here, as they should be. And I have a science certificate, so I'm not blowing my own horn.

I don't know what else to say.

[knight_of_the_star]

116. Hells no!

That was one of the things I hated about primary education, I'm so happy I'm in college where I set my own hours and even if I'm taking a full load I'm not in class or as worked as those poor kids in high school and junior high are these days.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

132. Finnish schools are continually rated #1 internationally, yet

they spend less money on educating their kids, and their kids are in class fewer hours.

[donco6]

140. And they're all Finn.

This statistic has been debunked so many times. When you have a completely homogeneous society and you're not dealing with 15 languages and 6 races and multiple ethnicities within *those*, yeah, it's probably a lot easier and cheaper. Hell, look at Utah for a closer example.

Just looking at test scores (which that Finnish study does), and if you reduce even one of my schools to just it's white middle class population, our scores are quite good. But our job is to educate everyone, and I can't imagine doing it on less time than we have now.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

143. Not all Finn...

though admittedly most are. But the schools are particularly noted for their success with educating kids who are not in the upper echelons of the learning community.

Finland has its indigenous people, the Sami, who have their own language, and variants within that language. Classes are offered in Sami to help these people preserve their unique culture. Kids learn to speak different languages fluently while they're in school, which explains why we Americans can manage to get around in Finland (and most other European countries) despite our ignorance of any language but English.

The Saami are not the only minority in the country. The Roma (Gypsies), Jews (which seem to have lost their minority status here in the US), Russians, Tatars (Turk-originating Muslims), Swedes and Swedish-speaking Finns are among the minority groups that inhabit the country. In the Finnish schools, students can learn in Romani, Russian, and Swedish.

I'm not suggesting that we need to make our schools exactly like Finland's. I'm just saying we need to look at what they're doing and see what we can apply to our own situation.

While I can sympathize with parents need for after-school care, I really don't think longer school days are going to educate our kids any more. In fact, I suspect it will only make them hate school more.

[Javaman]

148. In the latest decree by king george* to his subjects...

his* latest brilliant idea is to extend the day from 24 hours to 30 all in an effort to increase production and boost the economy. All his* loyal minions lauded him* for his* keen insight and shrewd leadership abilities.

the average man on the street had a different view. Mr. Joe Blow of Anytown USA states, "the functional idiot* is a complete fucking asshole".

In other news, the east coast declared marshall law...

[noonwitch]

150. If the schools are already losing disinterested kids, why make them spend more time there?

The kids who are having problems and are trying to improve usually stay after with the teacher anyways. Teachers need an hour or so between school ending and leaving the building to grade papers, prepare the next day's lesson and so on.

The problems with our schools are so complicated and various, one catch-all proposal like this is just not going to work.

[smalll]

158. Exactly. this is a TERRIBLE idea.

What kids are learning these days (on the High School level at least, which I'm more familiar with) is really NOT that hard. The problem is NOT that the failing kids need MORE TIME in school. Most of the failing kids, for various reasons, are BORED by school and opt not to make the effort. (This can be for all kinds of reasons - Media-overloaded lives, family problems, socio-economic problems, a single focus on social lives, or just plain laziness.)

How. In. Hell is it going to help to force these kids to spend even MORE time in school?

Plus, a lot of what kids do today in school is mindless busywork. Training them for lives in cubicles, I guess. It doesn't help that the (sorry, but "left"-wing, sorry) Schools of Education (the teachers of the teachers) are uncomfortable with the idea of teachers teaching or students actually learning knowledge - its all about "demonstrating skills" and creating "portfolios" of work. AKA busywork.

[JerseygirlCT]

161. Well, for one thing, some of the subjects/programs that have the

best chance of really engaging the kids (like the arts) are being cut in order to fit other more tested academics in.

Recess is also disappearing in the elementary grades, and that's a big problem, too.

Give them a longer day, with more breaks to run around, and lots of time with art and music, and I'll bet you they learn more, and better.

[NotGivingUp]

151. kids already spend too much time in school. eom

[MissMillie]

154. I think more hours would be a good thing

especially for the younger kids

It would also help lesson the need for after school care.


But I also think a longer day means not just more classroom time, but more unstructured time.

[Lars39]

160. My kids got on the bus at 6:45 and got home at almost 4:00.

My observation(pre NCLB): there were too many cutesy "feel good" contests to keep track of, the teachers were in the hall waaay too much and there were 3 fundraisers a year to take up valuable teaching or settling down time.

Cut out the fundraisers, have classrooms that don't look like a teacher-supply store exploded ,and give the kids enough recess time.

Kids shouldn't be burnt out on school by the 5th grade, and making them stay there longer will result in more burn-out for everybody.