Planned House Vote on Armenian Massacre Angers Turks

[kskiska]

Source: NY Times

ISTANBUL, March 29 — A planned vote in Congress that would classify the widespread killings of Armenians by the Ottoman Turkish government early in the 20th century as genocide is threatening to make bilateral relations unusually tense.

The speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, backs the resolution and at first wanted a vote in April. But under Turkish pressure, Bush administration figures have lobbied for the Democrats in charge of Congress to drop the measure.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates sent strong letters of protest to her and to Representative Tom Lantos, chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, which has not set a date for the vote. “That has had an impact,” said Lynne Weil, a Lantos spokeswoman, referring to the letters. Copies were also sent to Representative John A. Boehner of Ohio, the House minority leader.

Turkey vehemently denies the genocide, in which 1.5 million Armenians died during a period of several years, beginning in 1915. It contends that the deaths occurred in the chaos of war, as the Ottoman Empire was falling apart, and that many Turks were also killed when Armenians sided with Russian forces in the hope of claiming territory in eastern Turkey.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/30/washington/30turkey.html?ref=washington

[Viva_La_Revolution]

1. My boss's family is Armenian...

Course, he blames the 'muslims' :eyes:

The research I have done clearly indicates the Young Turks committed Genocide against the Armenians, used the Kurds to do it, and then started killing off the Kurds.

They need to fess up. That is the true first step to mending ties with the Armenians.

[kskiska]

2. My grandfather's family was massacred by the Turks around 1909

He and a brother and sister escaped to France, then came to the US. The stories handed down are atrocious. I have a pencil-written affidavit written in the 1920s by a cousin of my grandfather (whom I never knew) who witnessed the murder of my grandfather's young wife. This paper was apparently written as proof that his wife was no longer alive, to enable him to remarry.

[noonwitch]

7. My grandpa lived right in the middle of the Eastern Front in WWI

He was a very small child in that time, along the austrian/italian/slovenian (Yugoslav) borders. He says that during the war, sometimes the turks would ride through their village, and sometimes the serbs would. If the turks came through, he said that they had scimitars and necklaces made out of ears, were terrifying to look at, and the villagers hid all the little boys from them. If the serbs rode through, everyone hid in the cellar.

What was done to the armeniens was genocide-there's a group in Detroit that mark the anniversary of the slaughter every year with a series of billboards around town. It's really horrible to think about such things, but we can see that genocide is still going on. The Nazis came after that and Rwanda was not that long ago. What is happening in Darfur is genocide.

[Orrin_73]

20. The turks never fought in the balkans during the ww1

The turks mainly fought in the gallipoli, the caucasus front and the palestine front. Only a small detachment fought in the balkans mainly in hungary and northern romania but not in yugoslavia, this detachment was asked by the austrians when the russians attacked them. I think your grandpa is mixing turks with russians.

[bdamomma]

11. many of our Armenian ancestors still tell of the horror they lived

through during the Armenian genocide.

[Hardrada]

3. Guess I'll postpone my trip to Istanbul.

[heliarc]

32. I'm not sure that I understand...

why people who have a beef with a country's actions choose to not go to the country and study it themselves. Time and again on DU I hear people say, "I'm never going to Tokyo now" or "Now I'm not going to Turkey" Why not go and hear someone else's side of the story or actually do some investigative research?

It just seems short sighted to me.

[Bonobo]

4. Why is it our Congress' job to pass historical judments?

Armenian Massacre, Japanese Comort Women... I don't get it? Isn't there any Domestic problems for them to focus on? What the fuck business do they have wasting their time with these things?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

5. Why don't you ask an Armenian-American? n/t

[harun]

8. Focusing on problems abroad takes attention away from

problems at home.

The Armenians sided with the Russian's in war against the Ottoman Empire. It sounds like it was a war, not people just getting gathered up.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

17. Are you mad?

The atrocities of the Armenian genocide are as well documented as anything from the Holocaust. To deny that it was a genocide is morally wrong and factually incorrect. I am sorry that the government of Turkey continues to shirk its responsibility for these atrocities. I am even more sorry to hear someone defending their baseless excuses for the genocide.

[BuddhaGirl]

30. and I wondered why they did?

could it be because they were oppressed as a minority by the Turks? That they didn't have the same rights as citizens of the Ottoman empire?

What happened to the Armenians was genocide, pure and simple.

[bdamomma]

12. read this

http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/armenian_genocide.htm

[martymar64]

6. In Turkey, publicly discussing the Armenian Genocide is a crime

Several journalists in Turkey have been tried undert he crime of "insulting Turkishness". If I recall, one journalist was even murdered.

Everyone take a look. Turkey is on their way to being our next enemy in the war in Iraq. As soon as they cross over into Iraq to deal with the Kurds, it's only a matter of time.

[Ariana Celeste]

9. It's about damned time.

about damned time

[pampango]

10. I wish they would vote on whether Darfur is a genocide. Better

yet, pass legislation that they are both genocides.

[David Zephyr]

13. Best point made in this thread.

:thumbsup:

[fshrink]

14. How about our own? nt

[pampango]

16. Appropriate question, but let's do something about current genocides.

Then, by all means, we can label historical events accurately.

[fshrink]

23. Everything begins with your own backyard.

You can be 100% sure that if this doesn't take place first, what follows is a mere ploy aiming at some other political goal (e.g. twisting Turkey's arm re. Iraq Kurds).
As long as our country will not acknowledge its nearly genocidal history it has no say. Same goes for Turkey. Germany acknowledged.

[pampango]

24. Fine, if the government apologized for slavery and the genocide

perpetrated against the Native Americans, can we then do something about current genocides in which people are dying as we type? I a few words written on Congressional paper make that much difference to you, then let's do it. (I realize that there are some people who would then take these admissions and use them to push further agendas, rather than to free us to combat current genocides. I am willing to take that gamble.)

Politicians are usually pretty good a apologizing for things they had nothing to do with and which are part of the historical record anyway. Maybe Congress can make this a giant bill that will accomplish all of these goals.

[fshrink]

25. Government will not do it.

Why? Because it's way more than a piece of paper. Which is why Turkey cannot do it either even in the face of obviousness. It took France 40 years to even begin to acknowledge that the war in Algeria was not a "police operation"...
The only political way to stop genocide, in my opinion, is through the UN. At least there is a structure, based on a beautiful declaration (UN 1947), which, at least morally, overrides local authority. Even with all its imperfections, it's there, it has some power, it has a military force. It should go wherever it's needed, that is wherever human rights are violated, immediately, massively and publicly.
But still, fighting genocide begins by calling your own government to its responsibility, in its own land and in its own history, which some Turkish people have been doing for a while and at great risk (e.g. Yilmaz Guney, Taner Akcam.)
In my opinion, supporting an initiative which points in the right direction but for the wrong reasons, and which will therefore change with the circumstances, is extremely likely to result in a loss, rather than in a gain, of ground. That's what history suggests.

[pampango]

26. I agree with much of what you say, but the UN is not going to do

anything substantial about the genocide in Darfur. China, and to a lesser extent Russia, will veto any such action due to their oil and other business involvements with the government in Khartoum.

That is what makes the situation there so depressing. No individual country has the will or moral authority (perhaps due to their own genocidal histories, as you suggest) to do anything for the people there. And no collective body, the UN, NATO or any other, has been capable of taking collective action to deal with the situation resolutely. The Khartoum government is quite good at "playing" these international bodies. Negotiate, delay, agree to a ceasefire, delay, renege on the ceasefire, delay, then repeat the process, the whole time killing the black Muslims of Darfur and decrying the West's lack of respect for their national sovereignty.

I suppose that this proves that in the practical world of international affairs, "national sovereignty" is more important than the lives of people, regardless for what governments and politicians say. Perhaps this is for the best. A world where people mattered more than national borders might be a scary place in its own right. ;)

[fshrink]

27. It is depressing.

But a worldwide approach is the only possible way. At least the perpetrators know they are in violation of a written universal Law. It'll come.
I often wish youth would serve a mandatory service as "blue helmets"...

[brentspeak]

29. How has the USA "not acknowledged" its treatment of the slaves and native Americans?

?????????????????

[fshrink]

31. How has it?

[brentspeak]

35. No, it doesn't work that way.

This is how it works:

a) You made a claim
b) you're called on that claim
c) you're supposed to provide proof to back up your claim.

And in this case, it's

d) you have no idea what you're talking about

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

18. Much easier to deal with an old genocide than a new one.

While I definitely think it is right and proper for Congress to recognize the Armenian genocide for what it was, I shudder to think of what is happening this very moment in Darfur as they discuss this measure. Darfur needs help NOW. There is no question that what is going on there is genocide. It meets every legal definition. The UN has an obligation to act in such cases, and once again they do nothing, just as they did in Rwanda. So much for the West's commitment to human rights for all.

If we, as a civilization, cannot even intervene in this most serious and grievous of crimes, then what are we? Who are we? What is the point of the UN and other international organizations if not to stop genocide? Genocide is the Murder-1 of international law. What is happening in the Sudan is murder on a massive scale... and yet we do nothing.

After the Holocaust, we said "never again." One can argue that intervening in Cambodia would have only worsened the situation, but nobody, and I mean nobody, can argue that intervention in Rwanda would not have helped matters. No one can argue that intervening in Darfur would not help matters. We have utterly, miseralbly FAILED in our obligation to stop this type of event. "Never again" my ass.

[pampango]

21. You are right about it being easier to judge an old genocide rather than a

current one. Officially declaring old genocides (whether in Armenia, Cambodia, the US, or elsewhere) to be what they were, allows one to be wise and sympathetic without actually requiring that you "do" anything. You may even score political points with certain countries or ethnic groups and get in "digs" at other countries and groups without doing anything other than appearing to be benevolent.

Declaring Darfur to be a genocide now would come with the uncomfortable obligation to do "something" and many politicians do not want to go there. Perhaps by 2107 Congress can debate and vote on whether Darfur was a genocide or not. I can't wait.

I have to agree that if any politician says "Never again" after the last Black Muslim is killed or forced out of Darfur and the genocide "ends", I will puke. The only exception would be if someone said that as a justification to intervene in the genocide that follows Darfur (wherever that may be - and which I hope does not happen, but I am not optimistic.)

[Alameda]

15. "Armenian Genocide"?

The fact of the matter is this was during the WW1, many many millions died during that time. The Ottoman empire was being put upon from all sides...and a lot of propaganda and allies were being created.....all which led to our current situation is the Middle East..

Anyone remember the Arab Revolt...Husain-McMahon Letters....the Sykes-Picot...Balfour Declaration of 1917...and many others?

Part of the campaign was to promise people their own countries.... The Armenians were used by the Russians and others to form a 5th colum....that much is clear. Do a little research. It is by no means a cut and dry case here.

Why should the Turks agree? This thing is being pushed through without much input from all concerned parties.

Is this really a pressing issue at this time? ....Who are the US and Western powers to even discuss genocide? Native Americans, African slaves, the Congo....

It looks to me like another case of sticking our noses where they don't belong.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

19. It is a matter of intent.

The Turks set out with the specific goal of eliminating Armenians - men, women, and children, in certain territories. The Armenians did not just happen to be in the way of the front line of a war. They were slaughtered, quite intentionally, to allow the expansion of Turkey. If that doesn't meet the definition of a genocide, I don't know what does.

I'd like to slightly modify several of your statements above:

The fact of the matter is this was during the WWII, many many millions died during that time. Germany was being put upon from all sides...and a lot of propaganda and allies were being created...

The Tutsis in Rwanda were used by the RPF and others to form a 5th colum....that much is clear. Do a little research. It is by no means a cut and dry case here.

[Le Taz Hot]

22. That's pretty callouse.

May I suggest talking to an Armenian who was lucky enough to get out? There are still a few left. Many are in California's Central San Joaquin Valley where, 4 generations later, it is STILL a very painful topic. It's been a "pressing issue" for the Armenians for almost 100 years. Yeah, I'd say it's about time we recognized it. Just because YOU don't think its important, doesn't mean it isn't important to millions of Armenians all over the world. Who the hell are you to decide what is and is not important anyway?

[Alameda]

33. callous or curious?

The fact of the matter is I have spoken to many Armenians and Turks on the issue and done research on the matter. Based on this, I have determined this is not a simple issue. It is very complicated. At that time there was the "Armenian national liberation movement" fighting for part of the Ottoman Empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_national_liberation_movement

As for who I am <Who the hell are you to decide what is and is not important anyway?> I am a curious person who feels I have the right to question. Is there a problem with that?

And, I do feel we have more pressing issues in the USA and that part of the world.

[brentspeak]

28. A people that won't acknowledge its predecessors' past crimes have the potential to repeat them

Gives me a bad feeling about today's Turks.

[Orrin_73]

36. There is nothing that todays Turks should apologize for

As a Turks I stand firm and refuse.

[Dutch]

34. The Turkish government are morally equivalent to Holocaust deniers.

It's as simple as that. Pelosi is 100% right and must not give in to pressure from the vile, cowardly enablers in the White House.

[Orrin_73]

37. There is nothing denied

the armenian tragedy was simply not a genocide!