Californians against public services for illegal immigrants launch new bal

[Judi Lynn]

Californians against public services for illegal immigrants launch new ballot measure

ROBERT JABLON, Associated Press Writer Saturday, December 20, 2003

(12-20) 16:46 PST LOS ANGELES (AP) --

Backers of a contentious 1994 initiative denying some social services to illegal immigrants have resurrected their effort and are gathering signatures to qualify a new measure for the November ballot.

The "Save Our State Initiative" would bar undocumented immigrants from obtaining driver's licenses and most public services, including non-emergency health care.

Police, teachers and other public employees would have to notify federal authorities in writing of immigration violations or face potential misdemeanor criminal charges.

"We don't think it's right to give welfare to illegal aliens," campaign organizer Ron Prince said Saturday. "If you don't do something about illegal immigration, you will never cure your deficit."
(snip/...)

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/12/20/national1946EST0591.DTL

[DuctapeFatwa]

1. They should add an amendment that bans the state from collecting taxes

from undocumented workers as well :)

It is the height of injustice to force the voters of California to accept tax money from people they do not believe should be accorded access to health care or basic education.

[DBoon]

2. But people who hire them

Get off with at best a warning, and the slight business disruption caused by a raid. Were executives at Walmart charged with a crime for the activity of their subcontractor in hiring illegals? And yes, using a subcontractor is a knowing dodge.

This isn't about stopping immigration - it is about making immigrants more of a subterranean slave workforce. Take away their rights and you can work them harder for less.

[Gin]

23. the employers should be arrested....without their help....the illegals

would not flock here...and they are not just doing farm work...they are taking other jobs from citizens because they will work for less...so..the greedy employers should take the hit too.

[MrPrax]

3. So turn everyone into INS cops...

"Police, teachers and other public employees would have to notify federal authorities in writing of immigration violations or face potential misdemeanor criminal charges."

kinda like reporting child molesters or jaywalkers or terrorists...

Good Samaritan's are never Found, they are Made by Law©

[DuctapeFatwa]

5. When Pete Wilson wanted to do this, there was some reluctance

on the part of some teachers and health care personnel to "turn in" their students and patients.

Since that time, however, polarization has intensified considerably, and teachers and health care workers in all states will be ordered to do the same when internment begins, in any event. California could serve as a pilot program of sorts.

[MrPrax]

12. Evidence of a class divide

If Teachers and Health Care feel threaten by unregistered, illegal immigrants during a time of 'homeland' crackdown, then the class divide must be so lowered as to encompass even marginal state workers...

Race to the bottom, instead of the Top...and it's funny the way people will support trash like Arny and partisanship

[pinto]

14. Hi DF, my experience with CA public health is that the system is so

incredibly large, millions seen statewide every day, that enforcement of residency requirements is all but impossible. There is not the money in this state to do it, let alone the staffing. And public health has a "mission" mentality. We're not accustomed to turnng people away, let alone turning them in.

This is a "feel good" proposal for Repugs, in many ways. Licensing is another issue, I don't know how that would go, but I guess DMV would be more compliant.

ed for sp

[DuctapeFatwa]

16. I think you are right. My point is that even if a few nurses, teachers etc

"turn in" only a few people, that will be very effective in assuring that people who did not purchase their documents from the bush regime do not seek medical care, nor send their children to school.

In addition, any health care professionals or educators who are perceived as being opposed to assuming the new duties required of them by the state can be made an example of to send a message to others that if they do not turn the designated populations over to regime gunmen, they will lose their livelihood, in addition to whatever criminal penalties are levied against them.

So the measure will address two needs. One, to accustom people to the idea of "turning people in."

And two, to serve as a kind of pilot project to gauge the effectiveness of communicable disease proliferation among certain populations, and develop strategies to limit impact in the non-targetted groups, i.e., affluent whites.

There will also be, I believe an element of civil disturbance involved.

All in all, the project should be an effective model for successful implementation of "heightened security measures" nationwide in the coming months.

[ithacan]

4. if all illegals left the Calif. economy would tank

half of all agricultural workers in Calif are illegals...

If they left that major part of the Calif economy would disappear

This is fascist scapegoat-ism pure and simple.

The Calif situation is going to get worse and worse with Schwartzn. in power in Sacramento and Bush and the GOP in Washington.

The republicans will pull the typical right wing trick of scapegoating the most powerless and poor elements in society so people don't notice that the REAL problem is the republicans themselves.

[davidinalameda]

8. if our economy would tank

think of the effect that it would have on the national economy?

California is still part of the US

let's see all those big agri-businesses actually have to pay a worker a real wage and let's see how Mrs. Smith in Average Town react when she has to pay $3 for a head of lettuce at Krogers

[Sandpiper]

10. The California GOP...

Caters mostly to whites and white fear. The reason the GOP is going the way of the dodo in the golden state is because whites now make up less than 50% of the population here. The future's not looking any brighter for them either, because their percentage of the population continues to shrink each year.

This disgusting new proposition is just the latest attempt at more "fear of a brown planet" legislation, from scared white folks, who see their grip on California slipping away.

But, then again, we do need to keep them Mexicans in line, or next thing ya know, they'll be wanting to give the cities Spanish names. :eyes:

[pinto]

11. LOL at your last line. Geez, we could all end up with

Santa Barbara street names....

local joke;-)

[oneighty]

30. Decline of

the WASP (s)

[pinto]

6. Prop 187 (I believe) was Prince job, denied health care to undocumenteds

and was roundly ignored by all Public Health jurisdictions in the state. We were supposed to screen clients for residency status at Public Health clinics for crying out loud. Good move for basic immunizations, TB treatment, STD treatment and follow-up, wouldn't you think? :eyes: ...

The CA Repugs, for those out of state, are run by the extreme elements of conservatism. And CA becomes increasingly a state governed by proposition.

This must be a remake of 187 with drivers' licenses added so it qualifies as a "new" prop...

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. I'm betting that the next killer virus will originate in the state with

the worst public health service. I never expected California to be tops on the list. Anyone read the Red Plague lately? Or was it the Red Death?

[madrchsod]

9. by baring illegals to health services

california runs the risk of an outbreak of tuberculous, that is resistent to almost all drugs. it`s a small price to pay for preventing major out breaks of very serious diseases. but then again it`s california,where they didn`t like the car tax so they got pissed and elected arnie....now there`s a nice big fat cut back in security services.

[bushedout]

13. They should simply stop allowing all illegal immigration

Then penalize all who aid and abet them.

[DBoon]

15. Penalize the wealthy Anglos

who profit from having a compliant low paid slave workforce.

I want to see some rich white guy in jail for hiring illegal immigrants.

[bushedout]

17. Stuff your racist comment up your

you know what.

[foreigncorrespondent]

18. So tell me then...

...how do you feel about those illegal immigrants who are illegal because your country has given them no other choice?

I am of course reffering to American citizens who happen to be gay and have fallen in love with someone from another country.

Wanna know how it feels to be torn away from the one person in this world you love (?) because you are faced with hatred by a corrupt administration, hatred by the majority of people in that country, hatred by people like you, who are so anti immigrant, they don't even realize what illegals do for their own damned country, then come and talk to me or my partner Sapphocrat, because we live the nightmare of being torn apart each and every single day.

How do you feel about penalizing my partner an American born citizen, if she helps me stay there illegally?

[Sapphocrat]

19. NOT, my dear...

...that A) we ever have or ever would break the law to be together (that needs to be on record, repeatedly), or B) can you assume that bushedout has ever loved anyone.

We can't make assumptions about anyone unless we've walked a mile in his/her moccasins, can we, dear?

[foreigncorrespondent]

20. Of course I would never...

...do anything illegally to be with you. I am simply not a law breaker.

I think after reading all her posts I can safely say I have walked a mile in her moccasins. LOL

[ParticipatoryDem]

21. How much can it cost

Is there a dollar amount for the services provided to undocumented immigrants? I'm sure it is small potatos and not enough to break the bank. Just help the needy and get on with it.

[guajira]

31. How Much? - How About $85,000,000.00 to one Hospital in Miami??

snippet:
Two audits reveal that the hospital is owed tens of millions of dollars from nonresident patients, many of whom should not have been admitted, according to the hospital's own policies. An internal audit by the PHT discovered $25 million in unpaid bills from nonresident patients. Meanwhile the county's Office of the Inspector General (full disclosure: I worked there as an agent in 2001) has produced its own audit of money owed the PHT by patients living outside Miami-Dade County. Its reckoning of unpaid bills came in at a staggering $85.6 million -- and that covered the relatively short period from January 1999 to April 2003. The PHT audit does not specify what years were examined.

Examples include a Peruvian patient, reportedly insured, who received two years' worth of treatment totaling $1.16 million. The cost exceeded his insurance limits and the patient "reverted to self-pay status," but never paid. Another case involved a Saudi national who was admitted with a letter guaranteeing payment from the Saudi Arabian government, but died owing $233,500, which has not been paid. Four patients from Aruba, all using the same insurance company, collectively owe $930,909 for treatments dating from 2001. There's even a patient from Indiana who received an organ transplant and ongoing care for two and a half years and who owes one million dollars, for which Indiana Medicaid is responsible.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2003-12-18/korten.html/1/index.html

[ParticipatoryDem]

36. Very interesting. How does this relate to the CA ongoing mess?

I have often wondered who picks up the bill when a patient refuses to pay, Nor unable to pay but flat out refuses to pay his bills. Anyone know?

[Nile]

22. All immigrants should have public services available to them...

and they do as long as they are LEGAL immigrants.

[Le Taz Hot]

24. The undocumented worker issue

has always been a complicated one and anyone who tries to frame it in black/white terms is either incapable or unwilling to understand the intracacies involved. Just for the record, I live in the Central San Joaquin Valley and "border brothers/sisters" are and have been a mainstay in this area.

First, on the issue of barring undocumented workers from obtaining medical care and education. As a former teacher myself, and after speaking with other teachers and health care professionals, I can tell you that I've never spoken with anyone who is willing to turn a child away from gaining an education or refusing medical care to anyone who needs it. As a previous poster already mentioned, there is no possible way there is the infrastructure in place to ensure legal residency. Further, most teachers and health care professionals with whom I've spoken are unwilling to participate in such a punitive system. I know I wouldn't.

Many of these individuals come from VERY rural areas in which there is NO schooling and NO health care available to them. Consequently, it's not unusual for, say, a 10-year-old undocumented alien to come to this country having never had a day's worth of formal education. Further, since diseases such as TB are still fairly common in Mexico, Central and South America, *I* and all who live here, have a vested interest in seeing that ALL individuals are treated. Not only is this the wise course to take in terms of the public health risk, it's simply the humane thing to do.

Driver's licences: Another difficult question. Basically, undocumented workers cannot get car insurance because insurance requires a driver's license. Consequently, most undocumenteds have neither. When they are in an accident, it is not unusual for it to turn into a hit-and-run situation, thereby making ALL insurance premiums go up.

Lastly, is the question of the right to work. On the one hand, California's economy is VERY dependent on undocumented workers to fill jobs natives are unwilling to do. I don't know many cushy Americans willing to work in the fields 12 hours a day in 110 degree heat to pick produce for minimum wage (if that) and no benefits. It's hard, back-breaking work and the fact is, there are not enough legal citizens willing to do it. These people have come from places wherein there is NO way to support themselves and their families and I, for one, don't have the heart to tell them, "Tough luck, guy, go back from where you came and watch your family starve to death."

On the other hand, it leaves them ripe for exploitation with nowhere to turn when they've been taken advantage of AND it perpetuates the underclass social structure in which they are forced to live.

So, before people blurt out crap like some of the posts I've seen above, THINK! And have some compassion for your fellow humans. There, but for the grace of God, my dear.

[alarimer]

25. good post

This plan is simply pandering to the extreme right wing. I think it is racist too.

[Jack Rabbit]

29. Well done, Ms. Hot

It's unfortunate that too many citizens prefer slogans wrapped in neat, five-to-ten second soundbytes to taking a minute or so to read a fine, thoughtful overview like the one you have presented here.

[hippywife]

34. Exactly, Le Taz!

This is what I have been trying to explain to people for so many years now. And lets not forget that much of the immigration problem has been created by the advent of NAFTA. Thank Clinton and the Dems that backed that piece of crap legislation for everyone's misery on this count. While illegal immigration pre-dates NAFTA, it has made it almost imperative for indiginous peoples to immigrate in order to support their families, all the while getting to see them maybe twice a year and risking capture to do so.

I would love to see Soros or one of the other sensible millionaires in this country pay the immigrants to lay off work for a week...or hell, just a day, so folks can see how reliant this country has become on immigrant labor just to function.

White America just keeps handing their kids everything they could ever possibly want and eliminate the need or desire for them to work at even the simplest jobs let alone something character building. :eyes:

[GRClarkesq]

26. Expect an amnesty proposal from Bush administration

Ridge made noises about some sort of amnest proposal recently. No details. US has not had an "amnesty" in quite a while.

House republicans will be the biggest obstacle to any such proposal.

Expect Dean to run to the right on Bush on this issue.

[Jack Rabbit]

27. California's yuppie fascists ride again!

Never mind that the state's tax structure sucks. Never mind that a two-thirds majority of both houses of the legislature must agree in order to pass a budget, causing legislative paralysis every year. Never mind that being a Hollywood action hero doesn't mean one knows what he's doing when made governor. The entire state isn't Hollywood and real life isn't a summer flick.

These idiots are going to blame illegal aliens for all of California's problems. They're hardly different from the kind of people who vote for LePen in France or Haider in Austria.

Yep, Pete Wilson is back with a vengeance.

[JPace]

28. This is similar to the Walmart issue....

they pay cheap wages without benifits and
rely on the tax payers to provide social
services.

Those who hire illegal immigrants do the
same thing.

[guajira]

32. I Agree and Wonder why Dems won't get realistic about illegal labor in US

The example I always think of is - I love cats and I have 4 of them. I would love to have 100's and take all the cats out of my local animal control. However, if I filled my house with cats, I would not be able to afford to feed them or take them to the Vet. My neighbors would report me to the Code Enforcement and I would be fined and forced to give them up. In other words, everything has its limits!

Illegals allow US Corporations to get rich using very cheap labor who will work in deplorable and unsafe conditions. Meanwhile middle class taxpayers are paying for their medical, education, police and incarceration costs, food stamps, section 8 housing, etc.

Someone please tell me what is good about this policy?? Wouldn't it be better to make employers obey the law, and provide better paying jobs with better working conditions. Then Americans and legal immigrants who really want jobs would have them. If not, then allow whatever number is needed, and give them legal work status!

[JPace]

35. "Dems won't get realistic about illegal labor in US"

You are right.....I assume dems won't get realistic
because their hearts are bigger than their pocket
books. Still we have over 40 million Americans
that cannot afford health care, this is failing to
take care of our own. Illegals work hard for very
low wages and yes that can enhance our economy,
but if they get sick it costs far more to treat
them than anything that is saved by their low
wages. It is just that it is the taxpayer (YOU
& ME) that foots the thousands in medical expenses
while the employer saves $.
I don't have the answer...maybe paying more for our
food is part of the answer.

[mitchtv]

33. mandatory jail for hiring illegals

the problem will take care of itslf. Of coruse , I presume no one objects to $4 a head for lettuce $1 for an orange. A$5 a bottle increase for wine. "equal protection under the law".

[Name removed]

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