Judge Refuses Yellowstone Snowmobile Stay (Good News!!!)

[VolcanoJen]

This is an update to last week's decision by Judge Emmet Sullivan to revive the Clinton-era plan to ban snowmobiles in Yellowstone National Park. The Bush Administration set aside the ban, but after a challenge in the courts, Sullivan ruled against the Bushies!

Since last week, two groups (snowmobile lobbyists, it would appear) have intervened in the case, asking that the decision be reversed, but Judge Sullivan just isn't havin' any of that. :D

:toast: Here's to Judge Emmet Sullivan!! :toast:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&ncid=536&e=8&u=/ap/20031223/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/yellowstone_snowmobiles_1

Excerpt:

Denying a request that he stay his order from last week, U.S. District Judge Emmet Sullivan rejected arguments by the Michigan-based International Snowmobile Manufacturers Association and the Idaho-based BlueRibbon Coalition, which promotes motorized recreation.

The two groups had intervened in the case, saying the judge's ruling would prevent thousands of visitors from seeing Yellowstone and would devastate the local economies. They argued the timing just before the start of the winter season for snowmobiling also would lead to chaos in the parks.

<snip>

Sullivan said he saw no new evidence to persuade him to change his conclusion that the Bush administration was wrong to set aside a Clinton administration plan to ban snowmobiles in favor of less-polluting mass-transit snow coaches.

Staying his order now "would be tantamount to the court blinking (at) reality," Sullivan wrote.

The judge said "any economic or emotional harm to those who made plans to visit the park falls squarely on the defendants' shoulders," he said, referring to the Interior Department.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Once the snowmobiles ruin the environment

it is impossible to put it back. The judge is right on!

[TrueAmerican]

2. I heard these new snowmobiles are 95 less polluting

and they have little noise. So what's the problem?

[ochazuke]

4. Irrelevant

They still distrupt the solitude, trample the land, scare animals, etc.

Regarding the stay, I would like to say:


WHOOOOO-HOOOO, WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-HOOOOOOOOOOO, WHOOO-HOOOO-HOO-HOO-HOOO-HOOOOOOOOOO!

IN YOUR FACE, ORV TYRANTS!


thank you

[TrueAmerican]

5. So, should we erradicate all the bears?

----They still distrupt the solitude, trample the land, scare animals, etc.----

Bears do this too. I even heard of bears killing other animals and fish.

[ochazuke]

9. You're comparing machines with bears?

Bears are a part of the ecosystem. The internal combustion engine is not.

Bears have been killing other animals for uncounted thousands of years, and will continue to do so for many thousands more if we practice good stewardship of the earth.

Please tell me your post was ironic. I shudder to think people think that way, especially if it's at DU!

[TrueAmerican]

13. Are we all suppose to think one way at DU?

I guess someone needs to send me into reprogramming.

[Lorien]

15. No, just a little common sense

and informed mind will do. The snowmobiling was so bad that rangers were forced to wear gas masks and wildlife (bison, elk, deer, etc.) were dropping dead from being chased by "funloving" snowmobilers. The sound WAS deafening-so park attendees who had traveled to Yellowstone to get away from traffic and smog just found more of the same in park. Not fair to all of them, who FAR outnumbered snowmobilers. The comment about bears makes about as much sense as saying "well, we should eat babies 'cause protein is protein, y'know"? You know it's an absurd statement, yet you try to stir the pot with it anyway.

A :toast: to the good judge for an excellent ruling!

[ParticipatoryDem]

23. Then apply some common sense

The new sleds are as clean as the cars that drive through the park by the millions. It was bad but it IS NOT NOW. The only thing static here is the hatred of snowmobilers.

[Ediacara]

25. you're missing two important facts

1) snowmobiles go on trails through wilderness, and are more likely to encounter wildlife and sensitive areas than cars are.

2) "old" snowmobiles sneak in by the thousands, so all the talk about clean snowmobiles is just talk if dirty snowmobiles are still there.

[ParticipatoryDem]

27. Those can be dealt with by enforcement

You don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

[Ediacara]

28. with enforecement eh?

Why would you even want to snowmobile on a road following cars? Why bother?

[ParticipatoryDem]

33. There are NO cars on the road in the Winter

Admit you don't know the whole story and history of snowmobiling in Yellowstone. They have been there since the early 1970s and the roads are not plowed for cars to travel on. There was an issue brought up by some enviro groups in the late 1990s concerning pollution from snowmobiles. In the last two years the sled industry created new machines that don't pollute any more than the cars THAT TRAVEL ON THE SAME ROADS in the Summer.

There is no reason now to ban snowmobiles from using the roads to visit the park in the WINTER.

[Ediacara]

35. there are SOME cars on SOME roads in Yellowstone in winter

Admit, you're not being honest to the DU community with your yammering concerning snowmobiles. Snowmobilers DO bother wildlife more than cars, they ARE louder than cars (even the "quiet" ones), and illegal snowmobiles DO illegally enter the park and hamstring enforcement of the law by rangers. People who live in and around Yellowstone DO NOT want snowmobiles in Yellowstone by a 9:1 ratio, and THAT BY ITSELF should tell you that maybe you shouldn't snowmobile there.

Why don't you ask the people that actually live there what they'd like?

[ParticipatoryDem]

41. You ar enot being honest

Cars DO NOT drive on unplowed roads. Some roads are plowed but not the road to Old Faithful and its lodge. Your 9:1 number is a lie spread by the GYC and has been proven to be less than 20% disapprove of the new four-stroke sleds.

You have never seen or heard a four-stroke snowmobile if you say they are louder than cars. I OWN A YAMAHA four-stroke RX1 snowmobile that gets 20mpg and is much quieter than my truck that hauls it to the trails.

Illegal sledders are not going to be stopped by ANY BANS...that's why they are ILLEGAL SLEDDERS. Criminals don't obey laws. That's why they are called CRIMINALS.

Please tell the truth or admit you are not up to date with the facts.

[Ediacara]

43. funny...

the 9:1 figure (or something close to it) is reproduced in poll after poll conducted by the Bozeman Chronicle and Yellowstone Public Radio (the NPR operator in most of Montana and Wyoming). I guess the GYC is really warping everyone's minds... LOL.

[ParticipatoryDem]

47. The 9:1 figure is a lie

The BC and TPR are run by those that have an unnatural hatred for snowmobilers and would never give snowmobilers a fair shake.

[Ediacara]

56. LOL

The Bozeman Chronicle is run by snowmobile haters? Have you ever even READ the Chronicle?

[MaineDem]

76. "The only thing static here is the hatred of snowmobilers"

Absolutely not!

It's the machines I dislike, not the people on them. The machines disrupt the solitude of the woods on a winters day. I don't think anyone "hates" the snowmobilers.

And I'm in a minority where I live. The sleds bring an enormous amount of income into Maine. But I didn't move to the woods to listen to the drone of the sleds or smell the exhaust. I'm sure people in the National Parks want the peace and quiet as well.

[ParticipatoryDem]

77. It takes time to phase out the old smelly snowmobiles

The EPA did it to cars in the 70s and it didn't happen overnight. Every year there are more and more clean (really clean four-strokes) snowmobiles sold and soon you will not hear or smell them. The sled I have which is a four-stroke is no louder than a car.

[MaineDem]

78. I can appreciate the changes

However, I wouldn't want a car driving through the woods either.

I'm not sure what the right answer is. There is a place for snowmachines but, I'll admit, I don't know where the tradeoff has to be.

[ParticipatoryDem]

79. After the snow melts there is no trace. No need to restrict our recreation

Riding a quiet and clean snowmobile through the woods has no more impact than a person walking or sking. Why would anyone deny the enjoyment of others performing a harmless activity?

I see moose and deer all the time when riding in Vermont and they just look at you as you go by and then go back to what they were doing. When walking of sking the animals run wildly in deep snow to get away from you. There were some university studies done in the midwest that determined that animals were more stressed by walking humans than those that are just passing through on their machines.

[MaineDem]

81. Maybe no trace after the snow melts buy what about the pollution now?

The changes haven't been made yet. There is still the constant whining of the sleds as they pass near my house.

We won't agree on this, I'm sure. There's a place for the sleds but I don't like them where I can see them, hear them, or smell them.

I will admit the snowmobiles and their riders are much better than the ATVs. The local snowmobile clubs are excellent about maintaining nature and policing their own. They try very hard to maintain positive relationships with property owners. Unfortunately, not all riders are as dedicated as most.

[ParticipatoryDem]

90. When the EPA ruled on autos people didn't junk their cars and buy new

The phasing out of snowmobiles is on a faster track than autos were when the EPA dictated they had to clean up their act. Do you really expect everyone to junk their machines and plop down $8000 for a new on in the breath as the EPA making the law to clean them up? Nobody did it in the 70s with cars.

Assuming you can't smell or hear the machines in the near future...what in the world is the offense in SEEING them? I don't like to SEE bright spandex on XC skiers but I would NEVER demand or even ask or complain about having to SEE them. If the mere sight of a snowmobile is enough to cause you to see them banned then I don't know what to say.

[MaineDem]

98. I don't want to see them out my window

Classic NIMBY? Perhaps.

But, as I've said, there's a place for them but I don't think a National Park is that place.

[ParticipatoryDem]

102. Do you mind seeing bright colored spandex skiers out your window?

If the National Park is closed to wheeled vehicles in the Winter and it's more than 60 miles to get into the park to see thinks like Old Faithful then I see nothing wrong with it if the sleds are quiet and clean.

I have see Old Faithful in the Winter and it is beautiful. I can assure you that 99.999% of the people that have seen it in the Winter either rode a snowmobile or sat in a smelly snowcoach smelling eachothers body odor and other emissions for eight hours. I'll take the snowmobile please.

The only other option is to plow the roads so more millions of cars can get there in the Winter. I don't want to see that plus it would cost too much to keep the roads clear and it's more fun with the wind in your face.

I'm going there next Winter and rent a new clean and quiet four-stroke snomobile to drive from West Yellowstone. Right here and now I will commit to paying for two extra four-strokes for any two DUers that are skeptics about how fun and harmless it is. You MUST be able to handle cold weather for 8-10 hours.

[ParticipatoryDem]

21. The bears are hibernating during the snowmobile season

Anyone that does not know that fact should not be making decisions for those that understand this fact.

[tabasco]

19. An award for the most inane post I've read today.

Walk into the wilderness. Leave your noisy-ass machine at home. If you need to be informed that a machine is different from an animal, I pity you.

[ParticipatoryDem]

20. No, it's not irrelevant

The snowcoaches disrupt the solitude more than the new four-stroke snowmobiles. They don't trample any land because they only travel on the roads where the snowcoaches travel. The only tyrants here are those that refuse to accept that the newer machines do no harm. This ruling will not stand once this narrow minded judge is overruled.

[Tuttle]

7. Hey! I heard that too! Less polluting AND less noise!!!

I think the snowmobile industry published those findings!

These things are great for rescue operations but if you EVER lived near snowmobile enthusists, you know they are really bad news for everyone (outside of snowmobile industry insiders and enthusists).

I say RIGHT ON! The judge may a good call -- guaranteed to be overuled by some Bush-wick!

Tut-tut

edited to clarify context

[TreasonousBastard]

17. Yeah...

that was the argument the industry lobby used.

Cleaner and quieter than WHAT, though? And by how much?

And, what about the gadzillions of older snowmobiles being trailered into the parks that are not cleaner and quieter?

[tabasco]

18. There's lots of other places to ride snowmobiles.

But places where you can have the peace and quiet of the wilderness are exceedingly rare.

[Ediacara]

22. 1) that isn't true

2) people with "old" snowmobiles sneak in anyway
3) there are literally thousands of places to snowmobile that aren't national parks

[Donna Zen]

83. #3---ding, ding, ding!

There are many places to snowmobile without going to Yellowstone. Let's hear it for some pristine wilderness areas. I live in snowmobile country, and believe me my dog and cats still do flips as they roar by. If they are quieter, they are also more powerful and therefore faster.

I am not here to advocate the end of the snowmobile, because the US is loaded with trails that are open and fine to use. While there may be oil under ANWR, the value of accessing it is dwarfed by the value of keeping one piece of the planet in pristine condition. If that same principle is applied to snowmobiling, then could we not agree that it is okay to keep some wilderness areas off limits?

Note: 15% of all oil used in Maine is used for recreational purposes. Why is starting an internal combustion engine equated with having fun?

[ParticipatoryDem]

88. Yellowstone roads ARE NOT wilderness

In fact, no snowmobiles (or ANY motorized or wheeled vehicles) are allowed in ANY wilderness areas. There are many wilderness pristine areas where noboy but hikers are allowed an no snowmobilers I know have any desire to go there with their machines. So please, understand the facts about wilderness.

As for IC engine recreation it's just what some people (like myself) enjoy doing. The machines are getting cleaner every year and we are very careful not to infringe on others. Accept that there is a diverse set of people that have different ideas of having fun that may be different from yours. Inclusion - not division will win people over.

[UTUSN]

3. Um, Where the Huge Vocano Is? Tinfoil

George NOORY (Art BELL). The volcano that is overdue and might or might not blow in a week or a month or hundreds of years.

[HawkerHurricane]

11. Put away the tinfoil

As I've said before, my Dad works in Yellowstone every summer as a Ranger/Geologist; his posting for the last 2 years has been the Geyser Basin at Old Faithful.

There is no evidence of increased volcanic activity in the park.

The first sign of increased activity will be a major increase in the number of Grad Students visiting the park, looking for thesis material.

The last warning will be the same Grad Students, fleeing the park, looking for a safe spot to observe from.
"Last one out of the park is a future archeological find!"

[TeeYiYi]

72. Scientists Closely Monitoring Yellowstone . . .

From the December 2003 Idaho Observer:

Scientists closely monitoring Yellowstone

Recent eruptions, 200 degree ground temperatures, bulging magma and 84 degree water temperatures prompt heightened srutiny of park's geothermal activity

BILLINGS, Mont. -- Yellowstone National Park happens to be on top of one of the largest “super volcanoes” in the world. Geologists claim the Yellowstone Park area has been on a regular eruption cycle of 600,000 years. The last eruption was 640,000 years ago making the next one long overdue. This next eruption could be 2,500 times the size of the 1980 Mount St. Helens eruption. Volcanologists have been tracking the movement of magma under the park and have calculated that, in parts of Yellowstone, the ground has risen over seventy centimeters this century.

In July, 2003, Yellowstone Park rangers closed the entire Norris Geyser Basin because of deformation of the land and excessive high ground temperatures. There is an area that is 28 miles long by 7 miles wide that has bulged upward over five inches since 1996, and this year the ground temperature on that bulge has reached over 200 degrees (measured one inch below ground level).

There was no choice but to close off the entire area. Everything in this area is dying: The trees, flowers, grass and shrubs. A dead zone is developing and spreading outward. The animals are literally migrating out of the park.

Then during the last part of July one of the Park geologists discovered a huge bulge at the bottom of Yellowstone Lake. The bulge has already risen over 100 feet from the bottom of the lake and the water temperature at the surface of the bulge has reached 88 degrees and is still rising.

Keep in mind that Yellowstone Lake is a high mountain lake with very cold water temperatures. The Lake is now closed to the public. It is filled with dead fish floating everywhere. The same is true of the Yellowstone river and most of the other streams in the Park. Dead and dying fish are filling the water everywhere.

More: http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20031219.htm

TYY

[HawkerHurricane]

131. From my Father, Ranger Tom

A direct quote after I forwarded your link to him...

"My opinion? Horse shit.

I don't know where to start.

The closed area is about 5 acres, it's in a geyser basin, nothing was
growing there anyway. Plants are not dying, the animals are not leaving. There is no "dead zone."

The water temperature in the lake has not risen, it's extremely cold (under 40 F) except for right over some underwater geysers and hot springs. We're talking about a lake around 15 miles across and 30 miles long with 100 or so places 10 feet in diameter where the surface is a little warmer... not 88 degrees. There is no measurable temperature difference over the bulge in the lake, which may be thousands of years old. There are not "dead fish floating everywhere."

Remember: I was there last summer until Sept 30. I am in contact with a number of people who are there now. Whoever wrote this article is smoking something very, very potent."

[Ediacara]

24. tinfoil not required

a Yellowstone eruption will be eminent when you see these two things happen:

1) Tens of millions of dollars of seismic recording equipment placed in and around Yellowstone Park

2) Every student and professor of every geology department in Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho simultaniously vacationing in the south Pacific.

I am a student in a geology department in Montana, and believe you me, there are classes scheduled.

[XanaDUer]

6. Great statement from Natural Trails...

Alfred Runte, author of National Parks: The American Experience and chronicler of America's national parks since 1972, said: "This decision confirms what Yellowstone was meant to be. This struggle was not against Americans who like their snowmobiles, but rather against the notion that anything goes in the national parks. The courts have reminded us that we have a different, higher standard for our national parks. Our history proves that no one loses when beauty wins. We will find room for snowmobiles, but just as important room without them, which is the enduring greatness of the national parks."

http://www.naturaltrails.org/


This is a victory , folks! :bounce:

[VolcanoJen]

16. That's perfect, LibertyChick!

I love that statement! I'm going to have to remember some of those words when formulating my arguments against Republican-types. :-)

Thank you very much for posting that.

[ParticipatoryDem]

29. Yellowstone was defined as "a pleasuring ground for the people"

It says it right on the sign when you drive into the park. Have you ever been there? Did you read the sign?

Besides, the sled are ONLY allowed on the same roads that millions of cars use in the Summer. The snowmobiles are not harming anyone or anything.

[XanaDUer]

87. No

"It says it right on the sign when you drive into the park. Have you ever been there? Did you read the sign?"

Nope, what does that have to do with anything?

As for not harming anyone or anything, I guess some people have an opposing opinion on that one.

[ParticipatoryDem]

96. Opinions are not a problem

It's when people use lies and made-up facts to base their opinion upon and then carry it into the real world and start trying to get peoples activities banned based on their opinion.

[Tuttle]

107. Exactly my point!!!

If these facts "they are less noisy and less polluting" are based on lies and made-up facts from the snowmobile industry "less noisy and less polluting than what?" then the arguments for banning non-snowmobliers (believe me, when it snows around here, it's beautiful until the 'less noisy, less polluting snowmobiles' come out).

Great for rescue operations - however, they suck as recreational toys for everyone who is not riding one. Just like jet-skis!

Tut-tut

[ParticipatoryDem]

115. They don't suck for everyone not riding one

Just those with a "mightier than thou" attitude and those that enjoy forcing their values on others...much like republicans tend to do. I'm better than that and everyone I associate with is too. Life it too short to deny others their enjoyment thereof.

[Cheswick2.0]

116. they do suck for anyone not using them, they should be banned altogether

except for emergency services.
Strap on your snow shoes or X-country skis. Hike or ski in and make sure you take your garbage out when you leave. Sno-mobiles are an abomination to the peaceful beautiful winter landscape. They burn fuel, they are noisey and they stink. People use them to chase animals. Sno-mobiles also make it possible for people to take their idiot brew into the wilderness with them and leave the cans and plastic rings around after they leave. I do not believe snomobilers stick to the roads.

[Cheswick2.0]

117. ps... I hate motor boats and dirt bikes and those three wheeled

monstrocities too (what are they called ATVS?). Lets ban the snow coaches too.

[ParticipatoryDem]

120. When you become a dictator then you can push your hatred of other

peoples activities. Until then your opinion is duly noted and ignored.

[ParticipatoryDem]

119. I feel sorry for you and your narrow minded attitude of decent snowmobiler

Thankfully there are millions of others that have an open mind and understand that only a very small few violate the laws and behave less than civilly.

As if only snowmobilers take "idiot brew" into the woods (not wilderness since snowmobiles are not allowed in the wilderness - check your facts). I'm sure plenty of walkers take their "idiot brew" into the woods and leave the empties. What exactly is "idiot brew"? I'm sure many DUers have a tottie now and again so why the self-righteous attitude against drinking?

99.999% of Yellowstone snowmobilers stay on the roads. If you have proof otherwise please post it. Until then it sounds like you are making up your own "facts".

When you stop "burning fuel" to post here and drive your car or run your lights your self-serving attack on "fuel burners" will hold some weight.

I have tens of thousands of miles on a snowmobile and have never seen anyone "chase an animal". How many miles do you have?

[Tuttle]

123. Please refer to my post #122 (below)

while not a snowmobiler involved in animal mutilation, this was a jetskier.

I guess we're not allowed to think these things are annoying: or, if we voice that feeling, we've just delivered 2004 to Bushco!!!!!

Oh my God! What have I done!!!

Tut-tut

[ParticipatoryDem]

124. Think and voice anything you feel

If it condems an entire group then some facts would be nice.

Nothing will be delivered to bushco but it would be nice to have a few million snowmobilers on our side.

[Zomby Woof]

126. perfect

As someone who has hiked and explored Yellowstone a few times, I am extremely pleased with this development. The middle-American mentality that Americans can do as they please, anywhere they want, needs an ass-whupping. There are PLENTY of wilderness areas to muck up with your snowmobiles, so leave the national parks alone.

Now, if we could just get the damn RV's out of the national parks too. Gas-guzzling eyesores.

[TrueAmerican]

8. Bush and Howard Dean lose

Dean supports Snovmobiles in Yellowstone. Or was it Jellystone...Doesn't Dean remind you of Mr. Ranger?

[XanaDUer]

10. No.

Of Boo Boo.

[TrueAmerican]

12. that's right

And Gore is Mr Ranger.

[Cheswick2.0]

118. umm, not what Dean said

he said that he would leave it up to park rangers and people who cared for the wilderness to know what was best for the park.

[ParticipatoryDem]

121. Once aagain, the roads in Yellowstone are NOT Wilderness

And it was a staffer that said Dean would continue his support of Snowmobilers like he did in Vermont...not Dean. Dean helped set aside the entire NE Kingdom for allowing snowmobiling. I'm headed there Friday and will report back as to how fun it was.

The park rangers and staff approve 100% of the new four-stroke sleds because they are quiet as cars and there is NO smoke.

[LanternWaste]

14. Thank God!

Thank God. A small victory for those of us who are getting fed up with every flavor-of-the-month, psuedo-pop trends of which the sound levels annoy the living hell out of people who enjoy pristine environments with minimal intrusions of industrialism.

Now if they'd only hit the Texas State Parks with some regulations preventing rafters from playing their boom-boxes loud enough to be heard in New York I'd actually think we're getting somewhere.

[alarimer]

85. yes

Texas has, however, banned the use of four-wheel drive vehicles on river beds which is a good thing. IMHO. Now if they would only do something about personal water craft, a major annoyance of mine.

[ParticipatoryDem]

93. I don't jetski but those machines too are becoming four-stroke and quiet

In fact they are quieter and pollute much less than a typical 18 ft. day crusier.

[Tuttle]

108. What size body of water supports an 18 ft day cruiser???

compared to a jetski? Maybe we should ban jetskis on any body of water that can't also support 18 ft day cruisers?

Have you ever been to a secluded lake without ANY motorized craft? Now THAT is beauty!!!

My guess is you don't generally appreciate beauty in nature, given your stance on snowmobiles and jetskis.

Tut-tut

[ParticipatoryDem]

114. You guess wrong. I canoe...can you?

There are plenty of lakes and pond where only paddlers are allowed. I see nothing wrong with allowing jetskis on larger lakes and punishing violaters like I posted earlier.

My stance on motorized craft is that there is a place and time for them and I enjoy them but I don't own a jetski. What is wrong is to ban them everywhere and to express anger and hatred against even those responsible users.

Merry Christmas.

[Tuttle]

122. I remember once paddling in my 15' Gruman

coming upon a jetskier who had found a snapping turtle nesting on a spit of land - he was repeatedly running it over, using the carcass for a jump.

I guess (again) this must have been the time and place to mutilate a turtle. I guess no laws were broken so move along, nothing to see here, folks...

Happy Kwanzaa

Tut-tut

[LanternWaste]

110. It's not the noise and pollution of the machines, but of the operators

In the case of jet ski's, it not so much the noise or pollution of the machines themselves, but the noise and pollution of those who ride them. Seems like jetskiier's in TX don't feel their day is complete until they disturb at least one family canoe by riding straight towards them then veering off at the last second which sprays the occupants of the boats.

I'd actually be fine with those trendy little phallic-enhancers if the rules of the road were applied to lake-lanes.

It's not so much as I want them to be outlawed or illegal as seems to be so commonly inferred, I'd simply like to see some common sense and civility learned and used by the operators. But I'm getting the feeling that common sense and civility take a distant back seat to the "having my fun and f*ck you if you don't like" mentality I see all too often...

[ParticipatoryDem]

112. Yes. Numbnuts give us all a bad reputation

I propose consficating their machine and forcing them into reform school for riders and keeping their machine until they pass and pay a fine. The second offense bans them for life. That's much better than penalizing the responsible riders.

[klyon]

125. we should should try to accommodate

We should try to accommodate as many people as possible, our national parks are for everyone.
Machines that are powered by the internal combustion engine or even electric motors can never be pollution free, can they? Even a bicycle must have lubricant.
I think we should preserve pristine areas but if cars go there then other vehicles should be allowed also.
Emissions in the parks are a big problem, I would support limiting some traffic in “at risk areas”. In the future you may have to make reservation to visit national parks.
No matter where I go, every park I visit I always bring out more trash than I take in. People leave their mark everywhere they go. By working together we can see the whole picture. What is right in one place may be wrong in an other.

KL

[ParticipatoryDem]

26. Sullivan will be overturned

He refuses to accept the fact that the newer sleds are as clean as the cars that travel on the same roads. He will be eaten alive by those with facts on their side and no prejudice against snowmobilers. Judes like this with zero background in the matter have no business making decisions that affect thousands of people.

Americans are getting tired of knee jerk reactionary decisions based on emotions and not facts. This is NOT a Dem/Repub issue nor should it be. I know many Dems that are disgusted by this type of injustice.

[Ediacara]

31. facts you say? injustice you say?

And yet it's Sullivan that's kneejerk and not you?

Have you bothered to ask the people that live in and around Yellowstone what they think? I'll give you a hint... you won't like the answer.

[ParticipatoryDem]

38. That's what I said and I stand by it

Most people in and around Yellowstone are in favor of clean and quiet snowmobiles that exist now (pity nobody here will believe it). Many jobs in West Yellowstone depend on tourists visiting Yellowstone in Winter.

Nobody is going to ski or hike the 60+ miles to Old Faithful and back. They are going to ride a snowmobile and damn few are going to be herded like cattle into a stinky, noisy and bumpy snowcoach.

Please read up on the facts and don't hang on every word that the enviro groups say because they have an agenda aainst snmowmobilers. Again, this is not a DEM/Repub issue.

[Ediacara]

39. Do you live near Yellowstone?

I didn't think so. People are not in favor of "clean and quiet snowmobiles," they are in favor of NO SNOWMOBILING.

I don't really care if YOU feel inconvenienced having to go to Old Faithful in a crowded snowcoach. Many DO ski or hike, and enjoy the outdoors without snowmobilers bothering them.

[Tyler Durden]

40. Sorry dude, but mufflers on a 1000cc snowmobile...

...are for SHIT.

Picture a Harley with skis.

I say again, FUCK snowmobiles. I'm tired of taking a walk down my street in town in the winter (the only time it's QUIET) and hearing screaming motors in the distance.

One more time, with feeling: FUCK snowmobiles.

[ParticipatoryDem]

46. My sled has the Yamaha R1000 motorcycle engine and is as quiet as the bike

It's a four cylinder four-stroke. A Harley is a 2 cylinder four-stroke.
My sled sounds JUST like the yamaha motorcycle and nothing like a harley motorcycle. Funny you should mention Harley...Harley are free to ride on the same roads in the Summer in Yellowstone that sleds use in the WInter. The Harleys can run legally in the park WITH NO MUFFLERS and just straight pipes (do you know what straight pipes on a Harley sound like?).

Over time the older sleds will be phased out and the new quiet ones will prevail.

Your Harley comment tells me you have no clue about snowmobiles, mototcycles or engines in general. Please read up on the FACTs and put down the EarthFirst book on snowmobiler insults.

[Tyler Durden]

50. Who said anything about Earthfirsters?

I just hate hearing 5 or 6 snowmobiles running flat out half the night. Winter around here in small town USA used to be QUIET.

I LIKE Quiet. That's my right, too.

You can own your noisy toy, I just wish they had someplace you people could truck the damned things where I don't have to listen to them or have them ride over my lawn.

You may be the most considerate snowmobiler on planet earth, but your comrades are not.

[Tyler Durden]

53. Oh yeah...

And your Yamaha R1000 always rides around at 15-20 mph, right?

A stock Harley accelerating hard is LOUD. Your sled running at 40-50 mph is LOUD. And there is NEVER just one of them. Tell me 3 Yamaha R1000's running flat out are QUIET.

[happyslug]

42. No He will not be.

If you read his opinion, Judge Sullivan did NOT rule on the environmental consequences of Snow Mobiles in Yellowstone, but that the National Park Service had NOT followed the procedures set forth in the Organic Act of the Park Service and thus under the "Adminstrative Procedure Act", he (Sullivan) had to give defference to the Clinton Plan since it was the product of over ten years of study, while the Bush plan just said the the New technology would reduce emissions (and ignored the MAJOR problem which was NOT emissions, but the effect on wildlife the hugh number of snow mobiles had).

Furthermore the Courts under the APA must follow the regulations issued by the Interior Department Unless the regulations is arbetray and Caprious. The problem is the Clinton plan had been the result of extensive input from Scientists, Snow Mobilers, vacationers, the EPA, and other "Stakeholders". The Clinton plan was withdrawn and the Bush Plan implimented WITHOUT such administrative hearings and input (In Fact over 80% of the comments made about the Bush Plan was Negative).

Now sometime in the future whenever the Interior Department does the necessary work to implement the Bush plan, it may be adopted by the National Park Service and implemented in Yellowstone. All Judge Sullivan Ordered in his opinion was for the Interior Department to OBEY the law, and to do the necessary studies required by Law.

Here is Judge Sullivan's Opinion:
http://www.nps.gov/yell/planvisit/winteruse/12_16opinion.pdf

[ParticipatoryDem]

48. Correction

Clean and quiet Snowmobiles will NOT be banned in Yellowstone anytime soon. If the Clinton plan resulted in forcing cleaner sleds in the park then that is fine but the ban will not stand.

[happyslug]

52. Read the Opinion.

The major problem was NOT air pollution but the affect of so many snowmobiles in the park. The Snow Coaches would restrict the interaction of the tourists with the wildlife, which was the main concern during the ten years of study that implemented the Clinton plan.

[ParticipatoryDem]

58. Why do the millions of cars not pester the wildlife?

Hell, the bears are even awake when the cars zoom by.

[happyslug]

64. If you read the opinion

The Judge cites the results of National Park Service Studies over the last ten years. The main concern has been the Bison using the groomed trackways as highways out of the park leading to the Bison being killed as they exit the Park. The Judge kept going back to the Yellowstone Act and the "Organic Act" (The Act the set up the National Park Service) and that the Acts REQUIRE conservation of Wildlife as the NPS first priority.

Given the Statute covering Yellowstone, The Judge actually denied the Motion as to Air Pollution as not being proved in the studies one way or another.

The Judge also ORDERED the NPS to prepare a Study as to the effect the Grooming of the trails has on the Bision. The Judge told the NPS that the Study should include tests based on NOT GROOMING some parts of the Roads to see HOW much the Grooming is affecting the Bision.

For more details see the opiinion.

[ParticipatoryDem]

67. Effect on Bison

Let's see...the bison population has doubled in the last ten years so I guess snowmobiling and grooming is good for bison. No problem there. Next?

[happyslug]

70. See my thread #69 below

n/t

[Wickerman]

30. New Snowmobiles are not that quiet

Two years ago I lived next to a bar in a small town. Folks rode the ditches to get to the bar. It was an incredible din up until about 1:15 AM every weekend of the snow season. And yes, I hung around in the parking lot and talked to enough riders to know that these were the new, state of the art machines. Farmers here use them on their farms to check fences, etc - its an excellent tax write-off - thus you can trade and buy a new one every year. They are noisy as crap and I, for one, am glad to hear they will be out of that wilderness.


An added bonus - I get to try out the spell check feature. It caught feture - as in spell check feature! LOL

:yourock: elad!

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tyler Durden]

37. What are you smoking?

Whenever the snow flies here (small town, 5200 people) I can hear the snowmobiles ALL DAMNED NIGHT. Noise carries WONDERFULLY over flat, hard surfaces (SNOW? ICE?)

Not only that, but people riding these "quiet, non-poluting" GASOLINE POWERED VEHICLES take the short cut ACROSS MY FRONT LAWN and I live in town.

FUCK snowmobiles.

[ParticipatoryDem]

44. Then they are not riding the new four-stroke snowmobiles

I have a quiet one and an older noisy one too. Do you really think all the older and noisy sleds are going to disappear overnight when a newer model that is quiet comes out? Get real.

No honest Democrat is bigoted enought to say "fuck snowmobiles" when the snowmobile makers are trying to improve their machines. Many Democrats ride snowmobiles and this Democrat bought a newer and VERY quiet four-stroke machine and I resent such narrow and bigoted hatred against me.

[Ediacara]

45. do you live near Yellowstone?

[ParticipatoryDem]

51. No, I live in Ithaca NY

I slen upstate and sometimes in Vermont. Vermont LOVES snowmobilers and is a perfect example of friendly liberals that welcome decent people like me.

[Tyler Durden]

54. Dude you are as decent as the day is long.

You stand for Motherhood, America and a hot lunch for orphans.

I just hate your damned noisy hobby, and wish you'd do it where I don't have to listen, that's all.

[ParticipatoryDem]

59. But I do do it where you can't hear me

Unless you're upstate or in Vermont. And if I were to go through your front yard you would not hear ME.

[Tyler Durden]

63. As I say, you're the salt of the earth.

It's your compadres that suck the big wazoo in my book.

As long as you stay in Vermont with that thing, you can stay on my X-mas list.

[Ediacara]

57. Then stay there

The people who live in an around Yellowstone (even if you think it's all LIES brought by that damned communist conspiracy of the Greater Yellowstone Coalition and the Bozeman Chronicle and Yellowstone Public Radio) DON'T WANT SNOWMOBILING IN THE PARK.

There are Plenty of places that AREN'T Yellowstone Park to snowmobile for Christ sake....

[ParticipatoryDem]

68. Then shut down the roads and ban cars and trucks

Because the sleds are no more harmful than the millions of cars that drive through there all Summer. Since only repubs go to visit Yellowstone in the Summer it should help Dems get elected. Right?

[greendog]

111. Actually, that's not a bad idea

They've shut down the roads in Zion National Park....and Brice...and Denali...you have to take a shuttle bus to get into the parks.

[Tyler Durden]

49. There is no such thing as ONE snowmobile.

The damned things race up and down the roads and THREE went through my front yard going at least 30 mph.

I live IN A TOWN. NOT in the country.

You want to curb your sled riding buddies? Fine. DO IT. I am not bigotted against YOU, I say your freedom ENDS where mine STARTS.

You want to truck that noisy thing somewhere they're welcome, FINE, DO IT.

Here's a hypothetical: What if I said you had to tolerate my dirt track racing because my motorcycles (all 20 of them) had sound levels lower than 78db each? I'm going to be racing them this summer, and I'm 500 yards from your house.

Hope you enjoy your barbeque.

You have a noisy hobby. It is not in the constitution that I am required to tolerate it. I don't HAVE TO like your hobby, anymore than I am required to like the noise from Harley's, powerboats, or any other noisy toy.

This is not against you personally; I just wish you people would find something QUIET to do.

[Wickerman]

62. Please do not criticize my democratic credentials

You don't know diddley about me. Son, I live in farm country. I grew up in farm country. I understand 4 strokes and 2 strokes and noise levels and I am also familiar with the Yellowstone plan. I know the farmers around here prefer the 4 strokes. They are quite pleased to talk endlessly about their obsessions and how much money they dropped on them and what tax breaks they are afforded for them. They are work tools and frankly, the price difference (2 to 4) is not a factor. Farming operations around here don't show a lot of profit but its not uncommon for a family farm to have million dollar balance sheets.

I find 4 cycles loud when they are revved at idle or when they are running fast in packs. My assessment is that there is no place for them in the wild. You and I disagree. Please show some tolerance and respect that someone has a differing opinion than you.

[Tyler Durden]

66. What HE said!

I'm with you, chum, and I live in TOWN. I would kill for a little more peace and quiet, the way it used to be around here in winter.

The power boats were bad enough in the summer, but you have to duel with these "sleds" in the streets and on your lawn, and the cops will do NOTHING.

[Judi Lynn]

36. Great post, very glad to hear your comments.

Most sensible people aren't slightly interested in creating more problems than we already have.

So glad the Judge is ahead in this fracas.

[ozone_man]

32. I heard this on radio

I'm so used to hearing bad environmental news during the Bush administration, so I do a double take when I hear a story like this. They really don't belong in wilderness areas. Plenty of appropriate places for them, but Yellowstone is not one of them.

[ParticipatoryDem]

60. The roads in Yellowstone are NOT a wilderness area

I's the same roads that the cars drive on in the Summer. No wilderness involved here. Please try again...

[ozone_man]

82. You think they will stay on the roads?

I'm sure that many will, but many will just take off wherever they want to, once they're in the park.

Also, the noise and disturbance on the roads is enough to weaken animals that have to exert a lot of energy to run away in deep snow.

[ParticipatoryDem]

91. There are many activities where a few go out of bounds

I will give examples if you need them nut try to understand that %99.9 of snowmobilers are vigilant against these rogue elements and we do police our own. The rest should be fined the max and locked up as far as I'm concerned.

I will dig up the university study that showed animals we stressed MUCH more from hikers and skiers than a passing vehicle. Myself and everyone else I know that sees moose and deer on their snowmobiles contend that the animals just gawk at us as we pass by. I also hike and snowshoe and EVERY time I com across an animal they are trying as hard as they can to escape through deep snow. THAT is hard on them. Again you can search the University of Michigan for the study that backs up what I'm saying.

[happyslug]

55. Here is Judge Sullivan's Opinion:

Please note his ruling is based more on the effect on wildlife than Air Pollution in the the Park:
http://www.nps.gov/yell/planvisit/winteruse/12_16opinion.pdf

[ParticipatoryDem]

61. Please not that if the wildlife are bothered then the snowcoaches

are just as guilty. SO why are the snowcoaches allowed? Why are cars allowed on the same roads for that matter? It's all about hatred for snowmobilers and nothing more.

[Tyler Durden]

65. How many snow coaches are there?

and how many people do they carry?

Seems that the pictures I saw showed 1 person per snowmobile, and so many of them lined up last year at the Yellowstone gate that the guard was choking.

I'm sorry to say, but your annoying hobby is like smoking in a crowded restaurant: you aren't going to get much sympathy from us non-smokers.

Still, I have nothing against it if it isn't happening where I am. And I think it could happen somewhere other than Yellowstone and nobody would die of a broken heart.

Truce?

[happyslug]

71. Sorry, I responded to another person, but here are some Snow coaches

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/7306/yellowstone/coaches.html

http://www.yellowstoneguides.com/coaches.html

[ParticipatoryDem]

74. A very good read

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/7306/yellowstone/coaches.html

Motion sickness was a definite possibility. Ron bounced high enough that he was worried about smacking his head on the ceiling of the snowcoach. Mary was turning green. Next time I think Mary will take a dramamine before such a rough trip.

Spend time a little bit away from the snow roads. The closer you are to the roads, the louder the noise. You really don't have to get far from the roads to reduce the noise. I was surprised at how distant the noise could be even along the trails that paralleled the snow road.

Explore on skis and snowshoes. Skis and snowshoes make noise. Skiers and snowshoers also make noise (both are tough work). The noise of skis (and skiers) can drown out the noise of a distant snowmobile.

Some of the passengers in a snowcoach were angry about the snowmobiles. In fact, they seemed to be angry at the people on the machines. I remember one of them saying "you have to be an idiot to ride a snowmobile?". (I was tempted to answer, "no, idiots can ride snowcoaches, too."). It struck me as both elitist and ironic that a passenger in a snowcoach -- which is really just a big snowmobile -- travelling along a groomed snow road, would have such a negative attitude about other people who chose to explore the park in a different way.

According to the act of Congress that established Yellowstone National Park, the park was:

"dedicated and set apart as a public park or pleasuring ground for the benefit and enjoyment of the people"

[happyslug]

69. See the Opinion

Judge Sullivan clearly says he has to defer to the National Park Service (NPS) as to the effect of any rules and regulation the NPS issues. The sole exception is when the NPS issues Regulations that do not reflect the results of studies as to Conserving the Natural Resource at Yellowstone.

In the Clinton Plan Snow Coaches would be permitted, but that is the result of ten years of studies and input and as such the Judge had to defer to that plan. The Judge even refers to the Plan when He comes to the Bush plan, for the Clinton Plan clearly stated that it reviewed forthcoming technologies (including Cleaning Snow Mobiles) BUT THAT SUCH TECHNOLOGIES WOULD NOT ADDRESS THE MAJOR ENVIRONMENTAL PROBLEMS CAUSED BY THE SNOW MOBILES.

Please Note the Judge permitted the Snow Coaches but Ordered the NPS to do a study on the Grooming of the Tracks and to have that study finished by February 4, 2004. This Study shall include closing down some of the track ways to determine HOW the grooming is affecting the movement of Wildlife in the park. Blue water (the Plaintiff as to the Grooming) has been asking the NPS for such a study since 1997 and the Judge ruled that 6 years is more than enough time for the Park service to do that Study.

Now as a result of that Study the Park Service MAY issue new Regulations regarding the Grooming of the Tracks (i.e. Banning the Grooming and in effect ban Snow Coaches completely). The Judge made no ruling as to the Snow Coaches for the affect of such snow Coaches and the Grooming has not yet been completely performed by the NPS. Under the Administrative Procedure Act (APA) the Court has to defer to the NPS as to the regulations the NPS may issue as the result of that Study, but the Judge has to defer to see what the NPS does before the Judge can rule it complies with the law or not.

Please note the National Fish and Wildlife (NFW) is suppose to have an input as to the grooming (and thus the Snow Coaches) and the NFW has expressed its opinion that the Grooming is harming the Wildlife of Yellowstone.

Thus the Judge did not rule Completely against the NPS, but deferred to the NPS when the law required him to do so. But while the Law requires the Judge to defer to the NPS, it does not require the Judge to permit the NPS NOT to follow the law.

[cowpie]

73. Put up a fence!

This is no different than the SUV issue. Knee jerk reactions to junk science. No wonder we are out of power.

[mac56]

80. I don't hate snowmobilers.

I hate a**holes who ride snowmobiles (AND cars, AND motorcycles, AND 4x4s, AND power boats, AND etc., etc., etc.). Not the same thing.

I'm sure that only a few snowmobilers fall into that category, but it only takes one to wreck the wilderness.

Still looking for your proof from the other day.

[ParticipatoryDem]

89. Again, no snowmobiles or other machines are allowed in Wilderness

We are not asking to ride in the wilderness. The roads in Yellowstone where all the other vehicles ride is where we want to ride so we can visit the park in WInter. Snowmobile were singled out and now the machines are cleaning up their act and there is no reason not to allow them.

[karlschneider]

95. Well, I don't think anybody is gonna change their mind, but when I lived

in Minnesota, the roving gangs of drunken loutish snowmobilers were a HUGE FUCKING Nuisance. I understand you are not a drunken lout, but there are plenty of them terrorizing the wilderness.

[ParticipatoryDem]

99. What Wilderness in Minnesota were they terrorizing?

Myself and others have held trespassers until the tree cops came to write them up. We took their keys and waited for the cops. They we all young kids that either didn't understand the harm they were doing to all sledders or just didn't care. I'm with you on this and will go out of my way to shut assholes like them down.

[karlschneider]

101. Most of Stearns County (and not only the wild parts, farms & small towns)

also, these guys are not young kids, they are 20-30 ish clowns. One of their favorite tricks is to race to a dozen bars in various small towns, go in and have a fast drink then off to the next one. If the shortest route happens to be thru someone's back yard, well, that's where they go.

[buddhamama]

75. yes, Good News !

n/t

[GreenArrow]

84. big toys

Recreational snowmobiles are little more than big, loud toys. The only people who need to be playing with them in Yellowstone or any other National Park are park personnel, and then only when need or emergency requires it.

[mac56]

86. "Big toys" is right!

Wonder what Freud would have to say.

[ParticipatoryDem]

94. Wonder what Freus would say about other "toys"

Some people choose to perform sex in other ways than the man on woman missionary position and some use "big toys" too. Some Senators like Kerry have a big 12 million dollar big toy house. I choose not to denigrate other based on the "toys" they choose.

[mac56]

103. Who's Freus?

STILL WAITING ON YOUR PROOF.

[ParticipatoryDem]

104. Yes, Freud... a typo

The thread asking for the proof was locked.
I have the number, name and extention of the staffer now. I want to check with the admin to make sure it's ok to post it here.

For whatever reason, someone alerted on the other thread as being inflamatory. It may have been but it was the rude and inflamed responses to my mellow and reasoned postings FWIW.

[ParticipatoryDem]

92. That's your opinion

Most other reasonable people don't hold such narrow and draconian views. Thank goodness. Bernie Sanders supported snowmobiles in Yellowstone because he took time to listen to reasonable people like me and he doesn't make rash knee-jerk decision where the people are involved. I'll trust him over people like you that want to dictate their way or the highway.

[bleedingheart]

97. I think its a great rule Yellowstone is protected

for many reasons and one of them is to keep it as close to its natural state.

Personally I can't imagine how people can really enjoy the wilderness with the sound of a motor and rushing by everything but then again we live in a society in which people try and do everything quickly...

I would think walking through the wilderness or perhaps cross-country skiing would provide a more natural experience.

I would also like to point out that I have frequented many parks where dirt bikes have destroyed trails or even the natural areas....why do people always have to be such destroyers?

[ParticipatoryDem]

100. Motors are not allowed in the Wilderness

Snowmobiling on the road from West Yellowstone to Old Faithful is the best (and only in my opinion) way to get there. You CAN'T hike or ski the 60+ miles. With a quiet and clean machine it's wonderful. The wind in your face and the wide view is so much better than driving there in the Summer in a car or RV. I like to snowshoe in the Wilderness too but Yellowstone roads ARE NOT wilderness and snowmobiles are not allowed off the roads in Yellowstone or real Wilderness areas.

If I see dirt bikers or mtn bikers on trails where they are forbidden I report them and so should you.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

105. Snow mobiles and Jet Skis: Both banned in my summer town on Cape Cod

not only because of noise pollution, bt to protect the fragile environment. You can't even *park* a jet ski in Wellfleet town lots.

[ParticipatoryDem]

106. Did you have a problem with snowmobiles in the summer?

I really doubt that cape cod was a mecca for snowmobiles. Ban them just in case eh? What fragile environment in the parking lot is disturbed by a jetski on a trailer?

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demdave]

109. MERRY CHRISTMAS

[ParticipatoryDem]

113. Merry Christmas to you and all

We are headed up to the Vermont NE Kingdom Friday for a weekend of good snowmobiling. Five adults and two kids and no slednecks! I'm stoked!

[ima_sinnic]

128. a pack of 7 snowmobiles--glad it'll be nowhere near me

. . . had all I could take of snowmobiles running through my back yard when I lived in Maine.

going fast--big whoop

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratOrDeath]

127. It's about time these snowmobilers were put in their place..BANNED

Snowmobilers have no right top pollute our air and run amok on our public land! Bzan them all and shut down their joytoy haphazard fun at our expense. They have had their way for too long and next November when we take ovet the White House, the Senate and Congress we will ban them once and for all. Not one single snowmobiler will be allowed on one inch of public land. Bank on it!

[havocmom]

132. Met up with one of those new, improved, clean burning, quiet snowmobiles

on Sunday as my sleepy little berg was digging out from under a record snow fall. Lots of drifted snow, big pickup trucks getting high centered, a real mess. good thing the town is small enough that I can walk to any point in less than 8 minutes.

Anyway, the snowmobiles did seem like sensible transportation, considering conditions and the fact that we are not a wilderness area. That said, I will share my impression of those new, quieter, cleaner, state of the art machines: They stink and the noise is horrible! I suppose "quieter and cleaner" are relative terms. The brand new ones that went by me made a deafening racket and the fumes were awful.

Keep infernal-combustion road warriors out of the park! Nobody has a constitutional right to drive anyway. It is a privilege, not a right and there need to be limits for the common good.