Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

[robbedvoter]

Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

47 minutes ago
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=2043&e=4&u=/ap/20031228/ap_on_el_pr/dean

By MIKE GLOVER, Associated Press Writer

DES MOINES, Iowa - Howard Dean (news - web sites) said Sunday that the hundreds of thousands of people drawn to politics by his campaign may stay home if he doesn't win the Democratic presidential nomination, dooming the Democratic Party in the fall campaign against President Bush (news - web sites).

 

"If I don't win the nomination, where do you think those million and a half people, half a million on the Internet, where do you think they're going to go?" he said during a meeting with reporters. "I don't know where they're going to go. They're certainly not going to vote for a conventional Washington politician."

snip
Dean sought to turn the tables Sunday, arguing that his blunt-speaking, Washington-outsider approach has drawn back legions of voters who had been turned off by politics. He warned that many of them are likely to stay home on Election Day, rather than vote for another Democrat, if he is not the party's presidential nominee. More

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. So is that Dean's de facto way of saying he won't support the eventual

nominee if it isn't him? After all, he has the "ear" of those half a million.

[mmm]

2. don't sound good does it

I am really trying to like Dean, I wish he would
help me out a little more

[trogdor]

6. I don't know about that...

...but if one of the three worst offenders (Lieberman, Kerry, Gepahardt) who routinely attack fellow Democrats somehow wins the nomination, this Dean supporter's support for that candidate will be limited to his vote on Election Day, and that only because I hate Bush more.

[dfong63]

7. read the article - the headline is misleading

nowhere in the article did Dean say that dems are "doomed", and in fact Dean explicitly said he'd back the eventual dem nominee.

but Dean is simply stating facts when he says his support is non-transferrable. it's like any endorsement. not all of Gore's backers are supporting Dean now. and if/when Clark falls by the wayside, will all of Clark's backers support Dean just because Clark says so? of course not. i for one will not vote for Clark (or Lieberman), no matter who endorses him, and i know i'm not the only one who feels that way.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. I did read the whole article..try not to be presumptuous

certainly the whole of his movement is NOT "non-transferrable"

I realize you aren't the ONLY one who feels that way...the question is, do those that don't feel the same outnumber you or do you outnumber them?


Frankly, I think Dean is using his own little fear factor to secure his votes.

[dfong63]

12. if you read the article, then why are you engaging in speculation

... that Dean really meant the opposite of what he actually said?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. The only one speculating is Dean

AND I QUOTE "If I don't win the nomination, where do you think those million and a half people, half a million on the Internet, where do you think they're going to go?"

[dfong63]

14. and of course Clark supporters never use the "fear factor",

... when they incessantly spread mealy-mouthed tripe that Dean is "unelectable".

[conservdem]

64. It's not just tripe. It could be correct and the risk in too great

to ignore. I hope Dean supporter realize this.

[the_boxer_]

112. I love your sig lin nothingshocksmeanymore!

:hi:

[robbedvoter]

headline, schmeadline! He ordered you to stay home if he loses!

That's the headline! And you will listen. So. we'll have to win without you.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robbedvoter]

63. Am I right wing? Anyone who is not with you is against you?

Well, I sure fooled a lot of people here the past 3 years, didn't I! us, right wingers are very very tricky!

[wildmanj]

40. no matter

and i for another will not vote for dean no matter who endorses him but the republicans know this--just why do you think no one is laying a hand on dean---should he get the nomination bush will beat him by 5-9% points

[the_boxer_]

113. Why do you say that, wildman?

This in-fighting will prove disastrous...


We need to get our heads out of our proverbial asses if anyone is going to get dic (as in dictator) out of office....

[arcos]

18. You know that's NOT true!

"Dean repeatedly has said he would endorse the eventual Democratic nominee and urge his supporters to do the same. But he said there are limits to the practical impact of his endorsement."

quoted from the article...

[IndianaGreen]

20. An independent voter that is attracted to a Democratic antiwar candidate

is not likely to support the Democratic nominee if his preferred candidate does not win the nomination, particularly if the nominee turns out to be one of the candidates that supported the war.

Most voters consider themselves independent nowadays. They are the most likely to be turned off by infantile calls for "party unity."

While many of Dean's supporters are Democrats, and they will support en masse the Democratic nominee, there is a significant number of independents and first-timers that may not support another candidate (unless it is Kucinich) if Dean were to lose the nomination.

You guys might as well accept the fact that the 2-party era is long over. The only reason the Democrats and Republican even exist as parties is because of the undemocratic winner-take-all electoral process. Once we start adopting proportional representation, and abolish the Electoral College, we will then join the other civilized nations of the world in which the person with the most votes wins, and in which the legislatures truly represent the voters.

I will choose participatory democracy over party apparatchiks any day!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. Apparatchicks are those that would divide the opposition to Repubs

in my view. They did a good job in Germany in the 30's. Right back at ya ;-)

[MidwestMomma]

43. Good comeback...

I love people that are knowlegable about History. I'm not but I know a little of the era you're talking about as my daughter just finished a European History class and did a paper on the Weimar Republic. But I won't try to post anything I think I might know cause I would probably get it wrong...

[IndianaGreen]

55. I am glad you mentioned the Weimer Republic

because there are strong parallels between the rush by the Reichstag to give Hitler extraordinary powers after the Reichstag fire, and the rush by our courageous Congressional leaders in giving extraordinary powers to Bush after 9/11.

The same kind of people that appeased Hitler in 1933, are now appeasing Bush in 2003.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

59. Thanks..so you just contradicted your first post

[IndianaGreen]

68. No, I didn't!

The apparatchiks were the ones that demanded loyalty in 2002, succeeding only in defeat!

Ironic that they were the same people that cheered when Cynthia McKinney was defeated by a GOP-financed candidate, and Zell Miller protege.

I am among a group of Hoosiers that have long been interested in proportional representation and in changing electoral laws to break the undemocratic 2-party monopoly in Indiana.

I also believe that the Electoral College should either be abolished outright, or the winner-take-all eliminated altogether by apportioning the State's votes according to the popular vote.

Democracy and democratic are not empty slogans to me!

[MidwestMomma]

71. Here! Here! On apportioning state votes..

How do we get that changed? Is it a state by state process? I'm a Democrat in Kansas so you know why I ask!

[Tansy_Gold]

128. Abolition of the Electoral College requires

a constitutional amendment. The small population states that would lose virtually all their political power -- states like Wyoming, the Dakotas, Delaware, VERMONT -- would never ratify any such amendment. It would render them, and their voters, virtually meaningless and they would get no attention from candidates. Crass? You bet. But it was one of the safety devices, if you will, built into the Constitution to keep large population states from running completely roughshod over the little ones.

As long as the Electoral College is a force to be reckoned with, there will probably be a firm and strong two-party system on the national political stage. And as long as the two-party system controls national politics, it will control much of state and local politics as well.

Dreaming about what an election in the foreseeable future would be like without the Electoral College is an exercise in delusion. Get real.

[Justice]

88. FYI, Democracy and democratic

are not empty slogans to many DUers. Not sure why your post implied that your view of those principles is unusual here.

[the_boxer_]

114. Awesome, IndianaGreen!

Great post....

Thanks...

[MidwestTransplant]

28. Dean supporters should do the math

It's going to take a lot more than 1/2 Million people to win the election. It will take 10's of millions. Dean needs to appeal to those people and that's the issue

[IndianaGreen]

39. The war is everything!

As it was during the Vietnam War, if you are against the war, you are good; if you are for the war, you are bad!

This is why someone like Wes Clark is good, while John Kerry is bad!

There is not rocket science involved here!

[Tansy_Gold]

129. "The War" is NOT everything.

Important, yes, but to a lot of people it's only one of many issues that we have to consider in choosing a candidate.

(Nor was it the only issue in 68 or 72. A major issue, yes. The only issue, no.)

DU is not the whole of the real world. There are many folks out there who will look at many other issues besides how a candidate voted -- or says he would have voted if he'd had the chance even though he didn't -- on the IWR. Believe it or not, things like taxes, jobs, civil rights, the environment, etc. still resonate with a lot of people.

[farmbo]

50. No...its Your defacto way of saying Dean won't support the nominee.

... But who can get fired up about a candidate who just says "me too" to BushCo policies.

Excerpts from the article:
Dean repeatedly has said he would endorse the eventual Democratic nominee and urge his supporters to do the same. But he said there are limits to the practical impact of his endorsement.

"That's not transferable. That's why endorsements are great but they don't guarantee anything," Dean said.
<snip>

What part of "...(I) will support the eventual nominee and urge my supporters to do so..." can't you understand?

[SharonAnn]

72. It might be his way of saying that the others need to get smart

and stop being a typical "Washington politician".

If someone else wins the nomination, that person will have to talk straight to these voters to get them in his camp.

[Beaker]

89. So...we're doomed if we do, and doomed if we don't-

woe is us.

It's still a lo-o-o-ng way until November, but it's already becoming apparent that the "liberal media" is securely rooted in *'s corner, judging by all the rah-rahishness over the economic rebound being displayed, and the smug smiles on their mid to upper six-figure salaried newsreader faces.

If we fail to regain the white house, as well as lose the power to filibuster judges, the political landscape will be cast for most of the remainder of many of our lifetimes...and not in a good way.

I'm honestly beginning to fear for losses on our side of historic proportions this time around- if Howard {doesn't get the nomination, is he going to jump to the Greens? or elsewhere?
and if he is the nominee, the "debates" could very likely turn into a Dean Roast.

why did my f!#*ing parents have to instill a conscience and decent values into me???

I blame them.

[TruthIsAll]

97. Misleading Title: Dean NEVER said the word "doomed" !!!!!

This seems to be a new disease around DU: Mad interpretation disease.

Read the article before posting. Dean NEVER said the Dems were doomed. The author interpreted what he said.

The author is guilty of putting words in Dean's mouth.

You are guilty of blindly repeating the false headline.

[the_boxer_]

115. "MID"

LMAO!

[The Zanti Regent]

106. Hmmm, Dr. Dean sounds like Dr Smith

Oh dear, we're doomed, we're doomed...

Where's the Robot when you need him?

[MidwestMomma]

3. This is the second time he's been reported as saying this...right?

This is very disturbing to me. I thought the last time he tried to say he mis-spoke or something, that it wasn't a threat.

This seem clearly like a threat to me...make me the nominee or my people stay home.

I don't like this...

[Andromeda]

136. He didn't say it...

read post #97.

[Democrats unite]

4. This is the reason I want to see Dean fall and fall hard

He can take his million & half people and go, I'll take my chances with the real Democrats. I don't like idle threats, and this to me is a threat to the Democratic party and Dean should be called on it by everybody.

edit: spelling

[dfong63]

11. it's only the truth - no candidate's base is totally transferrable

a lot of Clark supporters have already said they won't back Dean no matter what. i feel the same way about Clark, and i'm not the only one. there's no magic wand that a candidate can wave to make his own supporters feel the same fervor for another candidate. this whole flap imho is just a GOP smear tactic that is being used to hurt the leading dem. there's no substance to it. Dean didn't say anything wrong, the only way it could be construed as "wrong" or a "threat" is by putting words in Dean's mouth.

unfortunately there are plenty of sour-grapes types out there ready to do just that.

[TexasPatriot]

99. ok

Dean was in the race long before Clark, certainly capitalized on the 'Bush is a dickwad' factor, and built a campaign out of that. Trippi has said he's going to make this election a referrendum on Bush - and polarize the election.

I HATE polarization - i think it's one of the big things thats wrong with our political process - and one of the reasons the democratic party seems to be losing itself.

Even though I hate that - I and all the Clark supporters I know - will all vote for whomever is the dem candidate because, believe it or not, we're democrats. I marvel at how the guy who claims to be from the democratic wing of the democratic party, who has turned anti-bush into a campaign plank, can think that somehow a democratic alternative to bush wouldnt be just as popular to the average Dean Supporter.

The question on the table becomes 'why did he say it' if not to imply the potential loss of hundreds of thousands of dem voters?

[maddezmom]

5. yikes

kinda sounds like a threat. :(

[davidinalameda]

8. this cements it--there is no way I'm supporting Dean

what an ego!

If he does get the nomination, I'll vote for him, but not in the primary.

I'm going with Clark.

[dfong63]

15. congratulations, you fell for GOP spin doctoring

read what Dean actually said, not the words that the Clark supporters are trying to put into his mouth.

[robbedvoter]

16. There are direct quotes, sensationalized title aside

And they match prior comments. HD is not such a victim of spin. he spinned AP into pulling their OBL story. We are not buying the anointed one as underdog anymore. he's got the power! And he is misusing it! That bat is leaking - so he is swinging it at us! Nice job!
Would you trust this man to represent you?

[ldf]

75. you damn right i would trust dean to represent me

i happen to believe that what is needed is passion and honesty. and i will believe what the man says, and not what you say he says.

i, personally, am not concerned about all the spin. unfortunately the gullible ones who won't read, but allow others to tell them what was said, will swallow it hook, line and sinker.

plus those who will tear down one candidate to build up their own have shown that they are just as capable as the republicans, of supplying the twist and spin.

[davidinalameda]

24. I read what Dean said

and that's why I'm not supporting Dean

and no, I don't think that Dean can beat Bush. I never thought he could.

He's using these scare tactics. If his supporters won't support the party's nominee if it isn't him, then ta-ta.

This is much bigger than one person--it's about removing Bush from office.

Why is that so hard for people to understand???

[MidwestMomma]

37. Beats the hell out of me!

And if you attack Dean, you are helping Bush.

So basically they are trying to rule us with fear by saying:

1) If you don't nominate Dean, he can't guarantee he get his supporters to vote Democrat

2) If you attack Dean, you're helping the Repugs defeat the Dem nominee.

Ruling by fear...why does that sound so familar?

[dfong63]

47. it's Dean's opponents who specialize in scare tactics

Clark and Kerry supporters chant over and over again that Dean is "unelectable". think about it. they're saying that the dems will lose if Dean is nominated. how is that any different from saying what Dean is now falsely accused of saying - that the party is "doomed" if their guy (Clark or Kerry) isn't nominated? it amounts to exactly the same thing. they're saying Clark or Kerry's base isn't transferrable.

stop bashing Dean for what he didn't say. even what he's accused of saying, is no worse than what Clark and Kerry supporters are really saying.

[oasis]

98. A wee bit arrogant doncha think?

[robbedvoter]

9. I was expecting this since the neocons were tempting him

http://www.forclark.com/story/2003/12/24/122315/39
As Lincoln said, any man can deal with adversity. Give him power - that's the measure of character.

[robbedvoter]

13. Prior comment here:

Commenting on Wesley Clark's possible candidacy in an
> interview with L.A. Weekly, Dean explained:
> "It's going to be very hard to start late," he says, "and think
> you're going to do well in Iowa and New Hampshire. It's going to be
> incredibly hard. I mean, we've already got 39,000 people working for
> us all around the country ... I really do believe--and I think about
> this--I want to get this nomination, and if I don't ... these kids
> are not transferrable. I can't just go out and say, 'Okay, so I
> didn't win the nomination, so go ahead and vote for the Democrats.'
> They're not going to suddenly just go away. That's not gonna
> happen."
> --
> http://www.laweekly.com/ink/printme.php?eid=46660
I remember Pitt expressing worries and HD supporters reassuring him/us.
Nu? reassure us again: is ABB stil in play, or it's NBD now?

[MidwestMomma]

19. Thank you robbedvoter

I thought it was an issue before, then made a non-issue by the Dean supporters who are busy over in GD2004 making it a non-issue again.

According to them this is somehow just Clark supporters attacking Dean again for some old quote that's not important.

Whatever. I know what's important and I think it stinks for Dean to even imply that his supporters will not support anybody but Dean. He's putting that out there on the table AGAIN for a reason.

Just one point against the doctor in my book.

[robbedvoter]

26. Just joining the neocon fray - drumbeat started recently . Read this:

http://www.forclark.com/story/2003/12/24/122315/39

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RamboLiberal]

17. Read the article and again I think Dean is speaking the truth

I admit I'm a Dean supporter. I'd find it hard to transfer my enthusiasm to some of the other Dem candidates, though I would go in to the voting booth and vote for ABB.

I'm 51 and Dean is the first politician I've ever donated to beyond a little one time $10-$20 donation here or there in the '02 senate race.
And even then in '02 those were my first donations.

If Dean loses the nomination fair and square, then I'd probably find it easier to transfer my allegiance. However if he loses cause the DLC or the DNC decide he can't possibly beat Bush and pulls some subterfuge, well it will be tougher for me to support financially and especially with shoe leather.

And it would be hard for me to transfer allegiance to a candidate who frankly doesn't excite me.

I would strongly support Dean. I would also do the same for Clark. Both candidates make me proud to be a Dem and I think stand the best chance of beating Bush.

I actually think any other Dem candidate - and that includes Hillary - would ensure a Bush landslide unless the Bush world suddenly goes to hell in a handbasket.

Here's how the candidates rate to me in both personal excitement and ability to beat Bush.

Dean :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:
Clark :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:
Kerry :kick: :kick: :kick:
Edwards :kick: :kick: :kick:
Gephardt :kick: :kick: :kick:
Lieberman :kick: :kick:
Kucinich :kick:
Braun :kick:
Sharpton :kick:

[flattop]

31. the only reason i would even consider the dems "doomed"

is pretty simple, kinda like me. I cant help but think that barring a major screwup in the economy bush would win for no other reason than Hillary wants to run in 08; and not against an incumbent democrat. And we all know that we must bow before she who is the uncrowned queen. She doesnt like dean, and I think she'll torpedo him however she can if it looks close. Kind of like Perot did to Bush the older. Just watch her, she's gonna come out against much of what Dean says to APPEAR as though shes "middle of the road". I dont trust her.........

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. Thanks R, but therein you just made the CRITICAL distinction

YOu might have a hard time transferring your enthusiasm, but what about your vote?

[dfong63]

41. you're a lawyer, trained to think

first of all, go by what Dean said, not by the words that third parties tried to put in his mouth. Dean said he'd support the eventual nominee, even if he doesn't get the nomination.

second, Dean never said the party was "doomed". he did imply that any other nominee would have a hard time mobilizing the Dean base. and he's right.

now put on your lawyer thinking cap:
Clark supporters are constantly harping on Dean's supposed "unelectability", playing on fears that Dean might win the nomination but lose the election. it's an inescapable drumbeat on this board. how the hell is that any different from saying what they are now bashing Dean for supposedly saying - that the party is "doomed" if they don't nominate their guy? how is that any different from saying that Clark's support is not transferrable?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. I think both of them are being pretty divisive to be sure

I did see Dean's comments and I liken them to Gephardt's comments about the Dean/Osama ad...hang with me a minute, OK?

When the source of the Dean/Osama ad became known, Gep said he denounced the ad bt couldn't do anything about it...made NO call whatsoever for it to be pulled.

Dean, in his comments here, is coyly pulling the same crap. Certainly, he is correct in saying that endorsements only go so far, but the underside of that statement is very GEPHARDTESQUE ala the "I can't do anything about the ad but denounce it" statement.

I do think the Clark camp pulls the same thing. Many of the attacks from ALL the candidates on one another are going to be hell on us comes the general election.


While I would have a very difficult time supporting Lieberman were he to get the nomination, I need only to look no further than the DOMESTIC policies of George Bush to see that, given the numbers, it is in my best interest to place my vote in the GENERAL election with the person who has the most chance of unseating him.

[RamboLiberal]

53. I said I'm voting for ABB - and by that I mean any Dem but Bush

But my enthusiasm, $'s, and shoeleather - I don't know. probably yes cause it is of utmost importance to get Bush out of the WH.

But except for Dean and Clark I don't think any of the Dems have captured the base & grassroots out here who are pissed at the party for their 'pink tutu' act for Bush.

[Eurobabe]

21. enthusiasm?

yes, my enthusiasm bubbles WAY over for Clark.

It does not bubble over remotely for anyone else (percolates slightly for DK) HOWEVER, I will be damned if I will settle for four more years of Bu$h.

So, if your candidate doesn't make the cut, it's okay to be upset, just don't play into the hands of the GOP and not vote.

[robbedvoter]

22. He'll endorse nominee- but won't mean it. Played in NYC

Ferrer endorsed Mark Green in the HD way, while telling followers to stay home. That's why we have a GOP mayor in NYC.(and RNC convention here in the summer) . Nice.

[Demobrat]

45. If Dean doesn't get the nomination

I don't really care who he endorses. I will decide whether or not to support the nominee, he won't decide for me, nor will anyone else. I suspect a lot of Dean supporters feel the same, and Dean knows it very well.

[robbedvoter]

58. I doubt he knows it. He called you "kids" the first time around

These kids are not transferable.

[Demobrat]

70. He know it very well. It's exactly what he was talking about.

We are not transferable. Kids or no.

[Teaser]

23. That's it. Tear each other to pieces.

Uncle Karl is laughing, laughing, laughing.

[robbedvoter]

30. Shouldn't you take this to your candidate, rather than to us?

We were ABB you know.

[Teaser]

33. That's it. Tear each other apart.

Uncle Karl is laughing, laughing, laughing.

[MidwestMomma]

32. Are you referring to Dean tearing the party to pieces?

That's what his comments will lead too.

[dfong63]

42. Dean did not say what robbedvoter claims

read the article, read what Dean really said, not the words robbedvoter is trying to put in Dean's mouth.

[MidwestMomma]

46. But will you admit there is an implied threat by Dean that if he doesn't

win the nomination, his supporters will not vote Democratic?

Honestly, I think it's pretty clear.

[Shanty Oilish]

67. If Uncle Karl is laughing, it's nervous laughter

Bush people don't want anyone upsetting Dean's cart. They don't want us to reconsider Dean. They want him to be nominated.

[the_boxer_]

117. Did you read Al Franken's book?

I knew Karl was bad...but I didn't know how bad!

[Rose Siding]

34. Give 'em hell, Howard

I guess all you Gore voters will be voting Dean now that he's endorsed him, right, because that's all it takes?

[freetempe]

38. Simply put...

This is Dean getting back at all the DLC'ers, the DU Clark posters, the Kerry's, the Lieberman's and everyone else who is buying into this crap that Dean will lose in a landslide if he wins the nomination.

Some people are extremely desperate to stop Dean before he gets going full steam. These people are mostly corporate hacks, GOP spin doctors, republican-lite democrats, special interest cronies, Washington insiders and the rest. They are so afraid of what Dean would do, they are trying to cut him at the legs before the primaries begin.

There are lots of people, I know several, who have been engergized by Dean's run for the presidency. If he weren't the nominee, I doubt they would vote, period, seeing as they have never voted before. I would still vote (assuming it wasn't Lieberman at the top of the ticket). That was Dean's point.

[ozone_man]

54. Point well taken.

I would be one of those who would look for a Nader/Kucinich/3rd party candidate rather than vote for one of those IWR hippocrates. Dean can offer to transfer votes, but many will not transfer. The fact is that there is a huge electorate out there that does not see a difference between the two parties. Dean represents a difference.

[Tansy_Gold]

132. What difference?

Tell me how and where and on what issues Howard Dean truly is different from the other candidates and from *. Different enough that a Dean supporter would be unable to vote for anyone else.

And I want more than "the war." I want Dean's stance on education, gun control, alternate fuels, welfare, jobs, civil rights, abortion, gay marriage, international trade, workers' rights, the environment, the Pledge, women's rights. I want to see where he's dramatically different from EVERYONE else on EVERY issue.

[curse10]

44. And people wonder why so many of us don't like Dean?

This is hubris. Plain and simple.

He's just as much of a conventional politician as the rest of them and to say otherwise smacks of idiocy. Dean is not a straight talker. He can barely get through a debate without stumbling or not knowing an answer.

It's a sad day when Lieberman looks like a better choice than Dean.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Democrats unite]

51. If what you say is true I believe the moderators would have stepped in.

eom

on Edit: and there has not been one Dean supporter here to ever lie? WOuld this be a true statement?

[Sterling]

127. 8. this cements it--there is no way I'm supporting Dean

I think the mod is a bit baised. Really sad.

[farmbo]

60. You want hubris and arrogance...try this:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=694&u=/ap/20031227/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_7&printer=1

[nohopewithnodope]

52. Dean is a God - we MUST support him or else...

Whomever is the Dem candidate must be the winner or else we will all suffer another four years of bush. Do you not understand that bush will convert america in another nazi germany if allowed to reside another four years.

[IndianaGreen]

57. Actually, we must support the antiwar candidates against the 4 pukes

that voted for the war in Iraq.

I encourage all the supporters of the antiwar candidates (Clark, dean, Kucinich, Mosley-Braun, Sharpton) to form a united front against the party establishment and its prowar slate of candidates.

[Malva Zebrina]

66. I will not vote for a 'war" candidate. eom

[Tansy_Gold]

131. Does that mean you will not vote at all

if Kerry or Edwards is nominated?

That you would not counter a single * vote?

Dean supported the Biden-Lugar amendment that was essentially the same as the IWR, and he was securely out of any risk of voting for it because he wasn't in congress. He could say anything he wanted.

Clark may have been against it, but he's still a career military man, still trained to lead young men and women -- and sometimes the not so young -- into battle, into bombing runs, into all kinds of war-hell.

I know you, as an individual, have a personal stake in the war vote. But you are not the only one. There are many other families who have already tasted the bitterness of a loss that can never be restored.

An abstention in the 2004 presidential election is the same as voting for *. The same as voting for increased pollution that will kill hundreds and thousands slowly, agonizingly. The same as voting for decreased spending on health care, again condemning hundreds and thousands to slow, merciless death. The same as voting for economic policies that leave millions in abject poverty and push more over the line.

And an abstention in the 2004 presidential election will not even guarantee that one individual son won't go to war, won't be injured, won't be killed.

No one, not even Howard Dean, knows for sure what he would have done if he'd been in congress and been faced with that vote. I think it's dishonest of him to say he would never have voted for it. I think it's also dishonest for anyone to say they could never vote for a candidate based on only one action of his/hers in a long career of public service.

I think Howard Dean mobilized and energized a whole lot of people who hadn't been politically engaged before. But I also think he attracted them to himself, not to his party. And I think -- just personal opinion -- that his stance on many issues has been less than the liberal position he has allowed many to believe he held. Therefore, I believe that many of those who CLAIM they would not vote for anyone but Dean if he doesn't get the nomination would in fact be GLAD to vote for Clark or Kerry or even Lieberman or Gephardt, because in fact their views and their positions are more liberal in many respects than Dean's. But because Dean has made them HIS people, and made them feel that he and he alone can win, he has kept them from examining the other candidates.

I honestly do not trust Howard Dean, and I won't even go into the many reasons why, because I don't think his supporters will listen and those who share my views don't need to be preached at any more. But I find his comments disturbing because they are so very, very easily spun. He has not demonstrated to me that he can speak carefully and with sufficient caution to keep his words from being thrown back at him.

His words on this matter have conveyed to many in the wider public -- DU is not indicative -- that he is arrogant and wants things his way or no way. I have heard too many people, Dems and Pukes alike, who have said Dean reminds them too much of * in his arrogance, his unilateralism. If the 2000 race was between two candidates who were perceived by many voters to have very little difference between them -- because Gore tried to distance himself from Clinton by moving a little to the right and * tried to distance himself from his core far right supporters by APPEARING to move leftward to the compassionate center -- I believe a Dean candidacy would offer even less distinction between right and left.

The few social issues -- same-sex civil unions, the war vote -- on which Dean can claim to be liberal/left in any degree are too often overshadowed by other statements and positions: his secrecy over his gubernatorial records, his lack of international experience, his stated intention to roll back tax breaks on the middle and lower income brackets, etc., etc., etc. Pointing out a candidate's vulnerabilities, weaknesses, and errors is not the same as bashing, is not the same as saying he/she is unelectable.

The latest poll I saw showed a presumptive nominee Dean being defeated by * in November 55%-37%. That's a HUGE loss. HUGE. And a coattail loss in congress could mean the true death of democracy and any remnant of a democratic party in this country. With a fillibuster-proof senate, * could ram through all those right-wing judges for the next 40 years. These are not minor issues; they are every bit as important as "the war."

If that poll were even 52% to 40%, I would be encouraged. But if despite the negatives on *'s record he is still able to poll -- granted, it was a Gallup poll and taken with a large grain of sodium chloride -- that strongly against Dean, then maybe all of us need to look at what's really going on in this primary campaign.

If Dean had a strong plurality in the primaries -- say, 45% of Dems likely to vote -- I would be less concerned about his electability in November. But there are still a lot of Dem voters who aren't on his side, whether they are Kucinich supporters, Gephardt supporters, Kerry, Clark, or Edwards supporters. Dean doesn't have this wrapped up. And the way he and his campaigners are going about alienating the VOTERS already, I fear, I truly fear, for democracy.

Sorry for the rant and for getting a little off topic.

[goforit]

56. He's right about not supporting the Washington insider thats for sure!!!!

We who support Dean will not cater to the those present
elected DEMS that ditched us for their own personal gains.

And they know who they are and they know that there are millions
not happy with their performance.

[Skittles]

61. BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT

Mr. Dean has one hell of a giant ego. Gawd, I wish Dems would STOP SAYING STUPID SHIT LIKE THIS.

[goforit]

118. It will take a big ego to down the bigger egos in the WH! Passivity

will not win, it will just be walked all over.

So if it should happen this way..........so be it!!!!
It will be justice for the vain DLC candidates.

[unfrigginreal]

62. Doomed if we do and Doomed if we don't

Says who? AP, This week it's the doomed if we don't scenario. Here's what they had to say last week:

Two candidates, Rep. Dick Gephardt and Sen. John Kerry, accused Dean of catering to corporate interests while governor of Vermont. A third, Sen. John Edwards, suggested that the front-runner is waging a negative, divisive campaign doomed to fail against President Bush.

We're right on target as usual here at DU though. There's no reason to attack the media that's putting out the "doomed Dems" meme when it's so much more fun to clobber our own.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

65. I'll give you points on that note

:thumbsup:

[jumptheshadow]

69. What did Dean really say? And the significance of this story.

Did the reporter surmise that Dean implied Democrats were "doomed?" Or did Dean actually say it himself? From what I read, he was stating that many of his supporters wouldn't be motivated to vote on election day if he wasn't the nominee. The journalist and the copyeditor chose to use the word "doomed," which is a strong and divisive term. My question would be whether Dean intended his statement to be interpreted this way.

However, if Dean wants to unite the Democratic party behind his candidancy and position himself as a leader with broad general appeal, he should not have made this statement. In fact, he should be dangling olive branches at this point.

The significance of this story is that many voters are just now starting to pay attention to the Democratic candidates. This may be one of the first real things they really absorb about Dean since he has hit their radar screen. And it's not going to come through as a positive, uplifting statement, no matter how you try to spin it or how he intended it to be interpreted.

[robbedvoter]

73. My point exactly: it's up to HD to unify the party, reafirm ABB

He still may have a chance, but his credibility is shrinking fast. The whole scorched earth campaign against other Dems was a bad idea. He still has the microphone - but not for long.he's got a warning already:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-dlc24dec24,1,6876959.story?coll=la-home-nation
Simon Rosenberg, president of the New Democrat Network, a Democratic political action committee, has been as close to Dean as any leading centrist in the party.
But after his latest criticism of the DLC, Rosenberg says, the front runner "has a choice. Is he going to present a new synthesis that incorporates all the best of all the traditions in the party … or is he going to be the leader of the counterrevolution?

[0rganism]

74. This kind of veiled threat is truly saddening

I wish there were some way these candidates could distinguish themselves from one-another without sensationalized quasi-extortion. Very sad. So many of them are light years ahead of what occupies the whitehouse in this dark hour, and they waste effort beating on each other while the real crooks get a free ride.

So much potential, so much waste. What a shame.

[Sagan]

76. Some people have short attention spans...

Though I do not support any particular candidate yet, being an ABB man, but come on people... Did anyone here expect Dean to take all the volleys of "Dean can't win... Dean's sure to lose vs. *..etc" lying down?

This is his return volley on that subject, and it's not without merit.


Anyone who expected Dean to simply stay quiet while opponents and pundits repeated the "Dean can't win" mantra hasn't been paying attention.

[Democat]

77. What an idiot

The more we hear from these idiots the more it seems like we have no chance in 2004 no matter who we nominate.

[ima_sinnic]

82. idiot? so your candidate can guarantee his supporters will switch?

[jeanmarc]

78. The power of former governors

He's right. As a former governor, he has the ability to state that he'll change things in Washington. I think of only Clark as a threat, but then I think of the competency of the Dean campaign's organization versus the rest and I think he's right. Then again, like many have said, not a single vote has been cast.

[Racenut20]

79. We'll Take Our Chances Govneer !@!!@!@!!!!!!!!!!

[ima_sinnic]

80. please stop distorting the truth about Dean

"threat"? he's not threatening anything, just stating a fact: many of his supporters are nontraditional voters--very young people, for one thing, and those who have never been involved in campaigning or even voting--and he can't guarantee that they will transfer their allegiance to someone else. None of the other 8 candidates can guarantee that all of their supporters will switch over to someone else either--sheesh! While it seems obvious to us here on DU that we must vote ABB, not everybody sees it so urgently.

why must everything Dean says be picked apart letter by letter and hung out like a billboard? OMG--a politician said something that's true--will we ever get over it?

get a grip. if you don't like Dean, vote for whomever you do like but quit with the hysteria already.

[DemocratOrDeath]

81. It appears Dean is the way to go

Why fight it? Let's get him in and boot bush out!

[mot78]

83. Great, just great!

Next thing you know, he'll tell his Meetup members to sign up for Nader or the Green nominee.

Dean's not helping, this is contrary to being ABB.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratOrDeath]

85. ABB is too narrow a focus

It's Dean or nothing. It's all over except for the Democratic victory party after we sweep all states in November! Bush is over and done with. He has allowed 911 and other threats against the homeland where a Dem would have kept us safe and secure against enemies abroad. It's time for a regime change and the Dems are in full control of our future.

It's time to change this republic into a democracy and total democratic control of the people. No more electoral state control and time for complete voter rights of the majority. Let the cities decide the leadership and not the rednecks in the rural landship.

[robbedvoter]

110. yeay, baby! King of the Universe! Today the dems, tomorrow the...

unemploymet line. HD makes Nader look pretty good these days!
Who cares about W? HD is the thing! F* ABB!
Careful what you wish:

[JoeNormal]

86. A few short weeks ago

I was strongly behind Dean. As the front runner it seems his head has blown up like a balloon judging by some of the statements he's made recently. I am considering all the other democratic candidates again - back to square one.

[depakid]

87. The truth hurts, doesn't it robbedvoter?

Dean's simply stating a FACT. Niether he nor I nor you know where any of he independent & Green voters will go, should he be denied the nomination through some insider political maneuvering. He's certainly not advocating that they shouldn't vote for another nominee, nor is he likely to do anything except give them his utmost support.

Nevertheless, the people Dean's talking about are very real- and I'm a perfect example. I do not intend to support my senator, Ron Wyden, nor will I support my Representative, Mike Wu, because those two have sold us out one too many times- the Medicare Bill being the latest, most egregious example. I may or may not hold my nose and vote for them when push comes to shove, but I'll not lift one finger, send one nickle nor speak one word in their favor. That's a promise.

The people Dean's talking about are the same tens of thousands who attended the shadow conventions in 2000. We're on board 100% at the moment, but take us for granted- or worse, disrespect us and we're gone.

That's not a threat, and not intended to be. That's just political reality.

[robbedvoter]

93. What color is the sky in your reality? Green? Not even.

greens ditched Nader - came back to reality. HD wants to blackmail the dem party - he underestimated the desire of people to get rid of W. Only the very confused will follow him on the plank. The rest, will join the frontrunner where the entire W opposition will colalesce. No truth, not hurting me. But I find it revealing that you'd like to.

[WillyT]

90. Doomed... Doomed... Doomed...

:hurts:

[SayitAintSo]

91. God this man sounds like a whiney little cry baby ....

This is embarassing folks ....

[Maddy McCall]

103. I've had that perception of him for awhile...

God help us that he doesn't receive the nomination.

[AlFrankenFan]

92. That's pretty presumtious

The way things are going I'm probably going to support a third party candidate.

[robbedvoter]

94. Dean Endorses Clark

 http://atrios.blogspot.com/
Dean Endorses Clark
Well, not really, but there's only one other non-conventional Washington Politician running.


If I don't win the nomination, where do you think those million and a half people, half a million on the Internet, where do you think they're going to go?" he said during a meeting with reporters. "I don't know where they're going to go. They're certainly not going to vote for a conventional Washington politician."
...

[okieinpain]

95. oh god, here we go. I'll agree with one thing about dean, he

doesn't know when to shutup.

[Selwynn]

96. What an ass.

[Maddy McCall]

100. He is so damned full of himself.

I pray that he isn't our nominee.

[IndianaGreen]

101. As TruthIsAll said, the title is misleading--Dean never said "doomed"

The reporter put his own interpretation and presented it as Dean's own words.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=288886#289312

The point being is that people should read the entire article before commenting on it.

[Maddy McCall]

102. I have read his comment (sans the word "doomed") from several

different news sources in several different contexts, and I still see it as a not-so-subtle threat to withhold endorsement of any other candidate who wins the dem nod. That is low and so typically dean.

[ima_sinnic]

105. crock

in your selective reading did you miss where he said he WILL endorse the Dem candidate and also encourage his supporters to do the same?

edit: by his rallying of support for lower-level Democrats in state races he has shown more of a commitment to Democratic unity than any of the other candidates--correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe none of the others has appealed to his/her supporters to contribute to the campaign of Democrats in Senate/House races.

[Cat M.]

125. That's called buying endorsements.

Dean reminds me of Bush in that regard.

You're right that Clark hasn't tried to bribe anyone for their endorsement by offering them access to his database of contributors. But in 2002, Clark did campaign personally for three democratic candidates and contributed his own money to their campaigns.

[robbedvoter]

108. non-transferable" and 'stay home on election day" - worse than "doomed"

I posted the title because it's the LBN rule. The content isn't any nicer - much as the title is sensationalized. So, let's not get bogged in details. People read what he said. he refers to democrats as "martians". I thought we were his base!

[Maddy McCall]

121. I agree--I've been a voter for 20 years and have NEVER seen threats like

this from any other Democrat. It is indefensable. Amazed that some at DU lash out at those who are astonished at Dean's statement instead of giving an objective look at their candidate. Dean making such statements is such a turn-off to voters like me that I would hardly be surprised if 10 million stay home if he gets the nomination.

[Cat M.]

124. And the Godfather...

never said he was going to kill anyone either. He just said he'd "make an offer you can't refuse."

If half a million to one and a half million democrats don't turn out for the democratic party (particularly ones who usually DO turn out), what do you suppose that will do to the democratic nominee?

Of course, I think Dean and his supporters overestimate their own importance. The number of independents and conservatives a candidate like Clark will attract (versus the number of moderate democrats, independents and conservatives Dean will turn off) make it an excellent trade in my opinion.

Let's take our chances. Let's go ahead and nominate someone else and let Dean supporters stay home. It's a risk I'm willing to take.

[Tansy_Gold]

133. I'll take that risk, too, Cat

Gladly.

[Voltaire99]

104. Rock 'em and sock 'em, Deano!

I'm enjoying this thoroughly. Here's hoping he brings out the cockroach rhetoric again, too.

[robbedvoter]

109. Yeay! Kill the dem party, deano! let W not have to compete with anyone!

Down with the dems! Good election strategy!

[goforit]

119. The DLCrs already did........Thank you Terry Mac!!!!

The DLCrs failed in 2000

The DLCrs failed in 2002

The DLCrs failed in California

The DLCrs will fail again in 2004!!!!

America will back DEAN at all costs!!!!

[robbedvoter]

107. And now whining to Terry Mac for protection from attacks

Dean Wants Party Leader to Slow Rivals' Attacks
By JODI WILGOREN
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/29/politics/campaigns/29DEAN.html?pagewanted=print&position=
MES, Iowa, Dec. 28 -- Complaining about the torrent of attacks raining down on him from his rivals for the Democratic presidential nomination, Howard Dean on Sunday criticized his party's national chairman, Terry McAuliffe, for not intervening to tone down the debate.

Oh, the sense of entitlement!

[the_boxer_]

111. I haven't chosen....

and I'd love to see Kucinich....but Dean is the shizzle....

[Clyde39]

116. Wes Clark is looking better and better

I like Dean but I'm worried about his lack of finesse.

[Cat M.]

123. I strongly encourage you...

to give Clark another look. He's an excellent candidate who believes in honesty, supports peace, and has the intelligence and dignity to be a respected president worldwide.

He's not a talk first, think second kind of guy.

[DemonFighterLives]

120. No one is really doomed

Even if his followers won't support a pink tutu dem. I don't think he's saying that none deserve support.
What's funny, is if Rove really wants Dean, why is all the Dean attacking allowed? It makes no sense.
I am undecided and I think Dean or Clark are the most likely to pull in the voters. Way back when, I thought Kerry or Gephardt would be the ones, but their slobbering over Bush and all he does lost it for them. Lieberman doesn't appear to belong in the party and I don't doubt some kind of party disruption by the Reps. If he continues to hack away at the party, then something is up.
What we are missing as Dems. is that we should be constantly dredging up the myriad of Bush scandals and inept foreign and domestic policy.
This isn't about how the dems. screwed up things, because they didn't do it. It is time to get to the heart of the matter.

[Cat M.]

122. Very Disappointing

I am very disappointed at Dean's continual attacks on democratic organizations. He's a centrist, pretending to be a liberal, and to varnish this portrait he's created of himself, he's attacking centrist democrats.

By portraying himself as a far left liberal and making several moves in that direction to appease this end of the party, he has doomed his own candidacy.

Only 17 percent of the population self-identifies as liberal.

These remarks CLEARLY have the intent of suggesting that unless Dean is the nominee, the party is doomed. By saying what he did--about his "fans" staying home--he was sending them a message that they could use the threat of withholding their votes as impetus to get him the nomination.

Why do I think this? Dean is the same man who while governor of Vermont threatened to repeal valued provisions of the Vermont Medicare plan unless Vermont republicans agreed to go along with his cigarette tax hike. This is Dean's style.

He claims that he is expanding the democratic base, but the very notion of a "base" is a group of people who turn out to vote for the party, regardless of who gets the nomination. They are the people you can rely on. If these people are going to stay home, then the truth comes to light--they aren't part of the democratic base. In fact, the Boston Globe says many of them are former Nader supporters, which explains a lot. People who supported Nader didn't care about electability either.

As a democrat, I will vote for whomever gets the nomination. Like an earlier Dean supporter on Clark, I will not give money or campaign for Dean if he gets the nomination. But I will not stay home. My goal is to strengthen the democratic party, not weaken it.

Unfortunately Dean does not seem to share that goal.

[mkultra]

130. dean real democrat

As far as I'm concerned, hes the only democrat in the bunch. Everyone else is as wet as Al Gore. I mean, Gore was a light year ahead of Bush but he, as the rest of the current field, have failed thus far to really attack Bush hard. Bush is dirty poker and we are gonna have to be very vocal about his crazy beliefs. It was right for Dean to say that the way we went to Iraq was wrong because it was. Maybe we would have gone anyway but pissing on the UN and the rest of the world in process was a mistake.
Dean makes the most sense so far. Lieberman is wrong to lie about deans war stance. Hes pretty much a republican in my mind. If he spent as much time speaking against Bush as he does about Dean he might have a chance. Sharpton cant win because there are still to many black haters in America, Same principal applies to Braun who i consider to be an excellent candidate. Kucinich is my type of guy but hes to strange looking to win. Kerry is way to weak on Bush plus he cussed to the media in a big way. Gephardt is also to weak on Bush and his presence is barley visible. Edwards is a good man with excellent Ideas and is a real contender but, once again, to weak on Bush. I'm unsure about about Clark as he has real potential. he could stand to be harder on Bush though.
I guess what I'm saying is that each and every one of these candidates needs to come out strong and vilify Bush as much as possible. Bush will do it hard to them through his media pukes and there is no real "Liberal Press" that will proxy a message for the democrats. The are going to have to go negative early and they are going to have to do it themselves.

[wiley]

126. Why, Howard Dean?

This really saddens me.

[milkyway]

134. Dean's right. I might vote for the others, but that's about it...

I'm a Dean supporter, and I doubt I could generate enough enthusiasm or energy for Kerry, Lieberman, and Gephardt to do anything more than vote for them. They have poisoned the atmosphere too much. There's no problem pointing out policy differences with Dean--but the main thrust of their campaigns right now seems to be how terrible a person Dean is and that he is unfit to be President. After hearing this stuff for months, their own supporters will have a difficult time switching their energy to working for Dean. These tone-deaf candidates just don't get the idea that, more than any election of our lifetime, the first priority is to defeat the Republicans.

Kerry has been especially pathetic. After spending the summer trying to convince us that he was against the Iraq war just like Howard Dean, he does a complete 180 when Saddam gets captured. He did everything but hold a tickertape parade for Bush. Dean, meanwhile, gets hammered by these spineless Dems for stating what's obvious to any thinking person--America is no safer with Saddam captured.

[Cuban Peril]

135. Implosion

Republicans are licking their chops at the idea these conversations are taking place. RightNation.com recently posted a thread titled "Democratic Underground Imploding", and from everything I've been reading lately, they're right. This type of fractious discourse is a one-way ticket to a resounding defeat. A serious candidate must have popular momentum well before the primaries, and all this bickering and one-upsmanship is making that impossible.