Democrats Keep Hammering Away at Dean

[stickdog]

http://www.ctnow.com/news/custom/newsat3/la-na-trail3jan03,1,1659385.story

"There is a pattern with Gov. Dean," Gephardt said in a speech at a Des Moines hospital. "First, say something indefensible. Then deny you ever said it. Then, when it's proven you said it, don't tell anybody why you said it. And then go and say it all over again."

In an interview on CNN, Sen. Joe Lieberman — who has opted out of the Iowa caucuses — challenged Dean on another issue, predicting that the front-runner's position on tax cuts would hurt him with most Americans.

Sen. John F. Kerry of Massachusetts spent the day in New Hampshire, unveiling a plan to eliminate barriers for small businesses and their employees. But his campaign continued its assault on Dean.

In a release headlined "Daily Straight Talk: A daily fact check of the records and statements of Howard Dean," the Kerry camp criticized Dean's environmental record, saying Dean was "more country club than Sierra Club."

[sandnsea]

1. Gephardt no pink tutu

I always saw him as just a nice guy. Guess he can get down and dirty too. "According to Howard Dean, we're all lying — all the other candidates and every major newspaper in America," Gephardt said. "The last refuge from an indefensible record is to call everything a big lie."

So how does Howard respond? He lies. Vermont wouldn't have health programs without the federal government and wouldn't have had a manufacturing base without NAFTA and other Clinton era education and jobs programs. Oh, and for good measure, he throws out the old war vote. What amazing leadership. :eyes:

"They haven't accomplished much. No health program, no jobs , they supported the war in Iraq."

[patricia92243]

2. Makes me wonder if some candidate had rather see Bush win rather than Dean

[sandnsea]

4. Makes me wonder if we want a President

Or just another liar.

[Cheswick2.0]

7. makes me wonder how many people here would rather bush win

tahn accept that their candidate is responsible for his own lousy results.

[sandnsea]

11. Like Dean will have to

When the voters realize he's just a big fat liar.

[Sideways]

32. OK SnS He Is Just Big Liar But When You Realize He Has The Nomination

What are you going to do?

[Foswia]

44. What will you do when you realize Clark has the Nomination?

Dean's scorched earth campaign sickens me. His self-righteous hypocrisy (see negative ads) makes me wonder what he and his supporters will do when Clark has the nomination.

[stickdog]

55. I'll vote Clark.

What will you do when Dean gets the nomination?

[MODemocrat]

35. Are you sure you're on the right forum?

It is my understanding that we're not supposed resort to name-calling on here.

[Blitz]

45. Your understanding is incorrect

Nothing in post 11 breaks any rules. We can be as hard on any candidate as we like (except for the nickname rule). The civility rule applies to other DUers, not to public figures who aren't DUers.

[virtualobserver]

10. we don't want someone who lies about why he voted for the IWR

good point

[sandnsea]

12. Dean already had to retract that

He tried that months ago. Nobody has lied about voting for IWR. Dean, on the other hand, has lied about being against war with Iraq from the start. He supported a war resolution. He said war would be necessary if Iraq didn't let inspectors in. Why won't he admit he wasn't against war from the start?

[virtualobserver]

16. Kerry recently proved that he lied about his vote on the IWR

after "apologizing" in that little meeting that included Eric Alterman, he then began volunteering his vote after Saddam was captured. He was only sorry that the vote for war did not help him politically. When it was politically convenient, he was then happy to volunteer that he had voted for the IWR, since it led to Saddam's capture.

Kerry's position can be stated in this way. I am for everything that went right in Iraq, and against everything that went wrong.

http://dailykos.com/story/2003/12/20/15737/481


To quote alterman.....

Yes, to those of you who asked, I am feeling that Senator Kerry did saw off that limb onto which I had climbed for him vis-à-vis his vote for the war when he started bragging about it after Saddam's capture. The ultimate lesson here, I guess, comes from my old friend and mentor Izzy Stone. "Don't trust any politician. Period."

[sandnsea]

18. He continues to say Bush failed

Failed at every single thing leading up to that war and that we would not be in this war if he were President. This does not change the fact that he has always said Saddam needed to be held accountable for WMD and that the situation in Iraq needed to change, preferably with Saddam no longer in control. He hasn't moved one inch from his position in 5 years.

[virtualobserver]

19. So if Kerry was president, Saddam would still be in charge.....

but since he voted for the IWR, Saddam is gone.


That sounds like a Bush/Cheney advertisement.

[sandnsea]

21. Yep

Sure does. Thanks for adding it to the discussion, so helpful. Lieberman has attacked Kerry in the same way, so's you know.

[virtualobserver]

25. It just shows how confused Kerry's position is.

If he wouldn't have gone to war as President, he shouldn't have voted for the resolution.

[sandnsea]

27. That's some logic

I guess if Afghanistan turned over bin laden, we should have went to war anyway because Congress voted for us to do that.

[virtualobserver]

36. What does that have to do with Kerry's contradictory stance? n/t

[sandnsea]

40. There's no contradiction

Voting for a war resolution doesn't authorize the President to go off half-cocked doing whatever he wants. It didn't in WWII, it didn't in Afghanistan, and it shouldn't have in Iraq. Kerry is consistent. Bush is a lying idiot.

[Sean Reynolds]

52. Kerry should have KNOWN better!

Kucinich did. Graham did. Byrd did. Hell KENNEDY did! Why not Kerry? Don't give me that BS line that Kerry only voted for the resultion, but didn't think Bush would skip past the UN and attack Iraq unilaterally. Hell, even average citizens in late 2002 were saying Bush would skip past the UN and go to war.

[MaggieSwanson]

48. Thank you, sandnsea.

You beat me to it!

[nibbana]

50. Dem Reps & Senators been bitch slapped by Bush

Someone is asking me to vote for some guys who won't stand up to Bush..
Bush has taken this country for a violent lurch to the right with a weak fight from the Dems in "Coingress"...

These guys are putting up more of a fight against Dean than they ever did against Bush...


nib

[polmaven]

43. I remember only one candidate

noting that many of his supporters will not vote for the Democratic nominee if it is not he. I don't, however, remember that candidate asking those same supporters to support whomever the nominee is.

It was almost a threat....Nominate me or I will take my supporters and go elsewhere. How mature is that?

I will not say that Howard Dean or any of his supporters are republicans. That comes too close to calling them freepers. Obviously, though, some on this board have no problem calling anyone with whom they disagree a freaking freeper.

No, The Dean supporteres, as he stated, will likely go to the Greens, Independents, or not vote at all. And he apparently has no intention of asking them to do otherwise. Way to support the Democrats, doctor.

[stickdog]

56. Dean has said numerous times that he'll support the nominee.

Regardless.

Some of his supporters won't -- just like any with other candidate, except he has more who used to be "outside the system."

Stating this is not a threat. It's simply a valid observation.

[polmaven]

63. My point is that

I have not heard Dr. Dean ask those supporters to join him in supporting whomever may be the nominee.

Of course it was a threat. "If you don't stop picking on me, I'm gonna tell the teacher, then I'm gonna pick up my supporters and go home"!

[mouse7]

3. May Gephardt rot in hell for handing Rove that soundbyte

You can count on Rove putting that soundbyte in Dumbya campaign spots in the Midwest if Dean gets the nomination.

[virtualobserver]

9. gephardt does wear his pink tutu

when he hangs out with Bush.

[sandnsea]

13. Oh nonsense

One vote doesn't make a pink tutu wearer.

[virtualobserver]

17. his behavior over the last three years does.

Only after Howard Dean proved that you could get away with attacking Bush did Gephardt discover that Bush was a "miserable failure"

[sandnsea]

20. More bull

I think people just don't remember, that's all. There was criticism of Bush. Guess what. America voted for Republicans. They believed Bush, "On Monday, he went so far as to say that the Democrat-led Senate is "not interested in the security of the American people."

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/09.28C.gephardt.oped.htm

And here is what Gephardt said about the IWR that passed:

"Over the past several days I have solicited views from all the members of my caucus and have negotiated with the administration to secure a number of important improvements that reflect these views. These improvements include support for and prioritization of U.S. diplomatic efforts at the United Nations, limitations on the scope of the authorization, presidential determinations to Congress before our armed forces may be used against Iraq. These include assurances by the president that he has exhausted diplomatic means to address this threat and that any military action against Iraq will not undermine our ongoing efforts in the war against terrorism. Regular consultations with and reporting to Congress on the administration's efforts to address this threat and post conflict contingencies in Iraq."

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/02/politics/03CONG-TEXT.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=adfcc03bea802013&ex=1073278800

Clearly Bush failed. Gephardt criticized him all along the way. Clearly the American people didn't give a shit. They believed Bush.

[virtualobserver]

24. Bush didn't fail, he got exactly what he wanted....

Kerry and Gephardt were naive.

[sandnsea]

28. Bush did get what he wanted

I wonder why Howard supported Bush in that end too.

[virtualobserver]

37. that reality only exists in the minds of those who want to believe it.

I can't counter a reality that exists only in your mind.

[sandnsea]

39. Like Gephardt said

"There is a pattern with Gov. Dean," Gephardt said in a speech at a Des Moines hospital. "First, say something indefensible. Then deny you ever said it. Then, when it's proven you said it, don't tell anybody why you said it. And then go and say it all over again."

Just pretend Biden-Lugar and everything Howard said about war with Iraq didn't happen.

[The Zanti Regent]

33. Once a Pink Tutu, ALWAYS a Pink Tutu

I'd love to see Gephardt go to my nephew's bedside and explain why he gave a blank check to President Asshole!

He should bring Kerry, Liberman and Edwards with him!

[w4rma]

58. Only against Dems though. Not against Repugs. (n/t)

[leesa]

60. He's right Gephardt. You are all lying and the media is lying

The little GOP game Gep and the other rich "representatives" have championed is coming to an end. We are on to you. Kerry, Lieberman and Gephardt...shilling for the GOP.

[ozymandius]

5. This is demented.

It's like some hick homicidal lover saying, "If I can't have her (the presidency) then nobody can have her." It would appear that these candidates care more for Bush to stay in the White House rather than anyone but themselves win this election.

I am so sick of Democrats shredding themselves. They could best use their quotable time pronouncing their individual vision for the country rather than tearing down the person running the best campaign. Or is this their vision: vote for me because I am not Howard Dean?

[sandnsea]

6. I wish Howard had done that

I might actually like the guy if he had.

[mouse7]

8. Get Howard Dean

"...They're angry because the Republicans are getting away with murder and the Democrats have spent most of the last three years on the ropes. This explains why the Beltway boys, John Kerry, Joe Lieberman, John Edwards and Richard Gephardt, are not doing so well in the polls and are having trouble raising cash. They're the ones who rolled over and played dead while George W. Bush looted the Treasury, turned the government over to polluters and profiteers and took advantage of 9/11 to attack civil liberties and launch a half-cocked invasion of Iraq. That Mr. Dean is actually gauche enough to point this out galls them immensely...."

"...In their desperate attempt to stop Mr. Dean, party leaders may wind up weakening their chances in the fall. If he emerges damaged from the primaries, or falters and gives way to a weaker candidate like Wesley Clark or John Edwards, George W. Bush may be able to thank a few Democrats in his victory speech."

http://www.berkshireeagle.com/Stories/0,1413,101~6267~1868013,00.html

[J B]

14. It really is like reading I/P threads all day long now.

If more people said what they thought rather than what they're supposed to say to promote their candidate it would be a nicer world.

My two cents.

[Jim Sagle]

15. Ouch! As a sometime denizen of I/P, I gotta say, "That hurts!"

[fla nocount]

22. There's only one candidate w/o an office on the "Hill"

Only one who owes nobody, only one w/o a lever sticking out his arse for the DNC/DLC to pull on. Dean scares the whores.....they know that the first thing he'll do is expose them.

[Blitz]

46. Really?

who does Kucinich "owe?" Where is Clark's office on the Hill? How long has Sharpton been a tool of the DNC/DLC? These kinds of statements, from Dean and his supporters, are why the people that Dean really scares are Democrats who would like to have a shot of winning something in 2004.

[bvar22]

23. The more the DLC candidates attack Dean,

the more I like him. These attacks on the leading Democratic Candidate are NOT coming from the liberal candidates, they are coming from the rebublican wing of the Democratic Party. They remind me of the republicans' attack on Gore in 2000.

[MrPrax]

26. The Beltway Three are disgusting...

They had ample opportunity to prove their worth to registered Democrats for the past decade (last TWO for Gep) and this is all they can do...

Since they are finished...why are they simply downgrading Dem chances next November...

Scum...

[stickdog]

29. I see no possible scenario for ANY of the 3 DLC stalking horses to win.

But they can help Bush.

[Rose Siding]

30. The patrician Kerry makes country club jokes?

*snarf*

[Fleshdancer]

31. More Dean attacks = more donations to the Dean campaign

Like it or not, that's the current situation. I hope like hell this is confusing the GOP because if Dean does win the nomination, it's going to be interesting to see how our party reacts when it's the Bush campaign that's firing the attacks.

I hope this becomes the trend for whoever wins the Democratic nomination.

[MODemocrat]

34. Gephardt and Ashcroft make me ashamed to be a Missourian

Gephardt is either a sore loser or he's working for George W. Bush. He's ran for president in the past and couldn't make it past second base, so here he is on television shows 24/7/365, instead of doing his damned job that he was elected to do. I've just changed my mind about voting democratic for whomever gets the nomination. I will just not vote, and, I know what people will say: "oh so you are going to help George W. Bush". To those people, I'll tell them that whenever the democratic party can unite and stand behind their front runners, then I'll be interested again. No wonder there is such apathy in this country. The politicians themselves, are a turn-off.:mad: :puke: :argh:

[virtualobserver]

38. You don't have to worry about Gephardt winnning the nomination

His ego won't let him give up.

[Politiclo8]

41. I'm getting tired of the.............

circular firing squad that has formed since Dean became the front runner. I watched Donna Brazil(sic?) on CSPAN several days ago and I was like how in the hell could Gore have been so stupid when he chose her to 'help' him run his campaign (into the ground). She was horrible. She looked as if she were a zombie. I wondered for a second if she were Tom Daschle in drag and blackface. I was like wtf?

I remember her saying that she talks to Rove on a regular basis. I wonder if she is on Rove's payroll. I wonder if the DLC is on the Republican payroll.

[IndianaGreen]

42. There is a pattern to Gephardt

and here it is:

President, House Leadership Agree on Iraq Resolution



President George W. Bush along with bipartisan leaders from the House and Senate announced the Joint Resolution to authorize the use of the United States Armed Forces against Iraq. "The statement of support from the Congress will show to friend and enemy alike the resolve of the United States," President Bush said during the announcement in the Rose Garden, Wednesday, October 2, 2002. White House photo by Paul Morse.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-7.html

[Guaranteed]

47. The other Dems were doing a lot better when they were

attacking Bush.

That's the only way that they can make any progress.

[Malva Zebrina]

49. this is pathetic

and over played. The guy came from nowhere and initiated a campaign that raised millions of dollars--he has had to have some super, organisational techniques in order to do this. He did not have the exposure of a Kerry or of a Gebhart or of a Lieberman, who did hav e access to the press in ways that Dean did not.

Somehow, the guy really WANTED it--and believes in himself--the other three, well they became complacent--they became part of the good old boy club--and when they discovered that it was not resonating with the voters, they were already behind. They may be good men, that is not my point. The point is that now, since they ARE behind, they have to resort to trying to kill the good man, the good doctor, Dean.

It is really trite, as immature as Bush is, and does not say much for the three of them. They have their noses on backwards at the succ]ess of Dean.

[koopie57]

51. I'm curious

I'm trying to think back to when President Clinton had all his troubles and the democrats did not step up to support him. I'm wondering who the most vocal were, I believe Lieberman was and Gebhardt, but not sure about Kerry. If these people have a habit of not supporting each other, then no wonder there is so much trouble in the democratic party. They don't seem to rally around one another. If they spent this energy going after Bush instead of each other, things might look a lot differently.

I can't get over how stupid all this infighting is. It is like when a basketball team fails cuz one player wants to make all the points. It never works.

[progressivebydesign]

53. Another amazing DU day..

Wow. It suddenly dawned on me, as I read attacking posts against Dean, that Dean supporters 99% of the time do NOT attack the other candidates. But.. other Democratic candidates, (and even their supporters here) freely and frequently attack Dean daily. I'm just not seeing an attack mob of Dean supporters. It sickens me to see the Democrats eating their own. To see so many so-called democrats and their candidates attacking Dean is disgusting, and so fucking counterproductive!!! The blind lust for power is so strong that they don't care who they destroy, or who we get in office as a result of their ruthlessness. Lee Atwater's spirit is alive and well in the back rooms of Kerry, Lieberman, Gephardt, and Clark's operations. Pity.. I had thought that Clark was going to stay above the fray.. but his supporters are some of the most venomous here, and now he's taken to attacking Dean. I guess we at DU were pretty naive for the past few years with our starry eyed, "we're in this together" attitude. Now it's a dog eat dog world... and so NOT what being a Democrat USED TO BE ABOUT!!! Why not pull your heads out of your self-centered asses and see what you're accomplishing by these relentless attacks. Four more years of BUSH! Yeah.. and you're the same people that railed against Nader and the Greens for supposedly helping to get Bush selected in 2000. You must be so proud!

[w4rma]

59. I agree. It absolutely sickens me to watch these smears. (n/t)

[Just Me]

62. Divisive in-fighting diverts from the real fight ahead of us.

This must end. We should be focusing on tackling "issues", not assasinating "candidates" (excepting, of course, the infamous presiding incumbent). Why isn't there simply a discussion about difficult issues instead of incessant personal attacks? Because the "personal attack" methodology is easier, or what?

I want ANYONE other than Bush (well, almost anyone). I do not wish to engage in tearing down any proponent against Bush. Am I alone? I don't think so.

[farmboxer]

54. Are They Working For Bush?!

Do they not care about "We The People"?

Why do some Democrats cut off their noses to spite their faces?!

[stickdog]

57. And not just their noses.

Gephardt also managed to get his eyebrows.

[BuckeFushe]

61. I guess Dick, Joe, and John can forget about a cabinet post

This is not healthy. They should have left their ego's at the door. Instead, they just feed the BushCo hate machine. I thought our collective goal was to defeat Bush, not defeat ourselves?