Accidents Take Increasing Toll on U.S. Military

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-mishaps4jan04,1,4153255.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Writing to his mother from Iraq in early May, Lance Cpl. Matthew R. Smith said he planned to be home in Anderson, Ind., to celebrate his 21st birthday later that month.

He never made it.

It wasn't an enemy sniper or rocket-propelled grenade that ended the young Marine reservist's life. After crisscrossing the desert for months at the wheel of a Humvee, Smith was speeding south along a northbound shoulder one night when he slammed his vehicle into an Army tractor-trailer abandoned on the side of the highway. He died of a massive head injury.

Smith had been driving for 15 hours with little break, and the Humvee's radio, speedometer and seat belts were not functioning, said his lone passenger, Lance Cpl. Antonio J. Delk. One of its low-beam lights also was out and Smith was using his high beams sparingly so as not to blind oncoming traffic. When the trailer suddenly materialized, there was no time to react.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

1. Yeah, right... sure. They mean to say "reports of accidents" are

increasing.
I know of many who died in "training accidents" after we were "out" of VietNam.
One such training accident almost took my right arm off.

No one told the VC and the NVA that we were just out peacefully training that night in Cambodia. I am sure it was just a miscommunication.

How many combat deaths are being hidden with this ploy now?
Another of their favorite tricks is to inflate the number of helicopter crash victims to gain a few hidden deaths.

Watch the bullshit! The DOD are masters at it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

2. Here's another trick they're using...

...the wounded soldiers that are hurt too badly to transport to the States are being kept in the hospital in Germany until they:

a) get well enough to transport to the States;

b) die and get transported to the States where they are not being counted among those killed in Iraq.

Based on the severity of the wounds to the extremities and the head, I'd wager a guess that we've lost another 5% of the total number of wounded brought to Germany. Even if the number of our wounded is really at about 3000 as reported by our friends in the Pentagon, that would still add another 150 deaths to the current "official" total of about 500.

I suspect that we have really taken about 6000 wounded in Iraq alone, and nobody is talking about Afghanistan anymore.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

3. Very true, and I think the percentage is higher than that... most

wounds that have to be evaced are very serious. The condition of US troops is not optimal, their bodies are stressed out from hunger and heat and dehydration.
I would say more like 10% die of wounds in those German hospitals, and that is giving a BIG benefit of a doubt to the hospitals.

[Zech Marquis]

16. I can verify that

one of my best friends is an AF medivac flight nurse, and officer at that--and she told me without revealing too much,"I've seen so many terrible things Zech, 18 to 20 somethings with missing limbs, head and back injuries..." she could be a good DUer, so rest assured that one of us--in a way of speaking--is doing her part to help the GIs who have become the victms of this war against humanity.

[Columbia]

4. Conspiracies abound...

Instead of insisting that there is some kind of big DOD coverup of casualty statistics and recovery procedures, why don't you complain about something more legitimate? How about why the young Lance Cpl was driving in a vehicle that was in such poor condition? Or why he was driving for so long without switching out with the other Marine? To dwell on your little pet conspiracy theories truly does a disservice to Lance Cpl Smith and others who were injured or killed during the war.

[jmatthan]

5. Why should anyone do service to

"Lance Cpl Smith and others who were injured or killed during" the ILLEGAL INVASION AND OCCUPATION.

Jacob Matthan
http://www.findians.com/educated.html
Oulu, Finland

[Columbia]

6. If you care nothing of American lives

Then I care nothing of you, sir.

[0007]

13. An American life is more valuable than one from another country?

[Columbia]

14. No one said that

[tabasco]

22. This is the kind of post that makes me sick.

American soldiers don't ask where to be sent. The ones in Iraq were sent by a corrupt administration. I was an infantry commander in the Army and I can guarantee that our soldiers are trying to do the right things in a bad situation. They didn't sign up for this crap. Maybe they signed up to kick the crap out of people like al qaeda and the Taliban (spare me the Taliban apologist posts), but not an illegal invasion of Iraq.
Are there soldiers in Finland whose deaths you would think deserve no sympathy? Or only evil, monstrous, red-eyed American soldiers?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

35. I will agree with everything you've said except for your comments...

...about Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Call me an "apologist" if you like, but there's quite a bit of funny business going on behind the scenes.

What exactly is Al Qaeda anyway? We never heard of Al Qaeda until the PNACers began writing their blueprints for world domination as far back as 1993. I have to assume at this point that Al Qaeda is nothing but a construct to scare the American people into continuing to support the so-called "War on Terrorism". And how come six of those alleged Al Qaeda hijackers also attended U. S. military schools? Were you aware of that fact? And did you know that the two Florida flight school owners came to the States at the same time, and that one of them has been tied to the CIA?

And what about the $43 million that the U. S. gave the Taliban government in early 2001? What about the meetings in Houston between the Taliban and Unocal to discuss a pipeline across Afghanistan? Did you know that the current head of the Afghan puppet government was the representative of Unocal at those meetings? And what about the meeting in August 2001 where the American representative told the Taliban reps that they could either have a "carpet of gold or carpet-bombing"?

Where there's smoke, there's always some degree of fire...this one's been burning for a while.

The awful crime in all of this is that innocent civilians have lost their lives in the U. S.. Iraq, and Afghanistan, not to mention the cost in American lives. But I believe the REAL culprits are MUCH closer to home than most people want to think.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

7. How does my experience in a combat zone with real people

who were killed have anything to do with "pet conspiracy" theories?
I spent 25 years in the US military, and I tell you this is common practice.
This is not a "pet conspiracy" theory. I am not sure what that would be anyway. Something about *'s dogs?

Seriously, I do not mean to dishonor LCPL Smith's service, sacrifice, or his family's anguish.

And I know why the vehicles are in such crappy shape... don't you?

That would be because the military has given up on maintaining their own stuff and given the contract to a subsidiary of Halliburton.

And, of course, the fact still remains that THIS IS an illegal and unjust war, and if you fail to see that, then

good day to you sir.

[Columbia]

8. Well, how about my own experience in Iraq?

Accidents do happen regardless of whether they are during combat or not. Arguing about whether DOD "hides" combat deaths in non-combat deaths does nothing to reduce those deaths. If you truly care so much about them, write your congressmen or senators about improving troop equipment and risk management procedures or about pulling our troops out if you are against the war.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

9. I am certainly not saying that accidents do not happen

Of course they do. especially in a disastrously chaotic place the US's short-sighted, money-grubbing policies and procedures have made Iraq.

Why was he driving that long?
I don't know, I bet his Gunny told him to. He was a Marine, that is what we do.

Why was the vehicle a piece of shit?
Sounds like deferred maintains to me. How about you? Who is in charge of theater procurement and maintains? Not the military anymore.

Write my Congressman and Senators?
Say, now there's an idea that will bring change! As long as I include a check with, oh, 5 figures for their next election, that is.

Columbia, get real. Read. Open your mind. You seem like a smart guy/gal.

Come on, share your experiences in Iraq.

[Columbia]

10. Valid questions

Pretty much all the vehicles in theater were in horrible shape. At least the ones in the Corps that is - the Army brought brand spankin' new ones. The Corps for too long has been living and breathing the phrases "doin' the mostest with the leastest!" "adapt and overcome!" and "semper gumby!" and now it is costing us lives. We probably spend more on those damn slay the dragon commercials than we do on flak jackets. So pretty much all the equipment we've got is in shambles. Heck, the vehicle I was in caught on fire TWICE during the war!

Obviously the best way to bring about change would be to vote in 2004, although I'm still a believer in writing to our supposed representatives in government.

Anyway, I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have about my experience in Iraq or anything for that matter.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

11. Okay, Marine...

How long were you in Iraq?
Reserves or regular?
Infantry?
MOS?

Not trying to sound like a inquisitor, just curious. I was a Hospital Corpsman with the FMF, spent 3 years in country VietNam at the end of the war. I was on the second to last helicopter to leave the roof of the US Embassy and fired some of the last shots of the war.
I then smartened up, got out and joined the USCG where I was until 1998 retiring and not ansering my phone right now when the CID says "US Government," which it has with alarming regularity.


Semper Fi.

[Columbia]

12. Appreciate your service, sir

Check your PM.

And Semper Fi to you, Doc. :)

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

15. Incoming, back at ya

[Rebellious Republican]

17. Ex-Navy Photographer /Aircrew/Combat Camera Group here....

I served in Beirut, was sent there to cover NATO operations following the bombing of the Marine barracks.

I have a simple formula to determine what constitutes a casualty of war.

I ask a few simple questions.........

Why was that young Marine in Iraq- Because we were at war!
If we were not at war, this young marine would not have been driving that humvee

Why was that young marine driving for 15 hours- Because we were at war.
If we were not at war, he would not have been driving that humvee for 15 hrs.

How come so many things did not work on the humvee- Because we were at war.
If this young marine were CONUS, the vehicle would have been in good working order. It would have had a fully functional maintenance facility complete with mechanics to keep all humvees humming smoothly. During war it is not possible to have properly functioning equipment at all times. These vehicles get put through some serious abuse simply because of the hazards that exist during a war and in a harsh desert environment. These vehilces just can not be maintained in a vast desert where the nearest maintenance facility and supplies may be hundreds of miles away.

So anyone that wants to argue if any accidental death either while in country or in CONUS should be counted as a casualty of war. I would have to ask, would any of these accidental deaths have occured if they were not training to go, were serving in Iraq. What would they have been doing if we were not at war?

Pretty Damn simple if you ask me, any deaths occurring during wartime are casualties of war, period. However I consider this to be more like murder, this is not about WMD's or Terrorists, its about Oil prophets. But what do you expect when you have a Bush and a Dick running (ruinning) this country! Semper Fi, I served with FMF in Beirut. I owe those guys, they took care of my young dumb ass while I was there, and I came home with all my body parts in tact.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

18. "Conspiracies"? "Pet theories"? Your post is no less important in...

...understanding what's happening to our troops in the field than our posts on the actual casualty count in the Middle East. IMHO, it's all part of the massive framework of lies and half-truths being told to the American people to justify the presence of our combat troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. I think you would also agree with the fact that those lies and half-truths began with the publicly stated reasons as to why the NeoCon Junta wanted to go to war in the Middle East in the first place.

"Conspiracies"? "Pet theories"? Some, like yourself, focus on minute details while others, like those of us that have posted comments on the actual casualty count, focus on the broader picture to include MANY different details, both large and small. Neither approach is wrong, despite your rather contrary and insulting remarks.

Some of us also feel quite certain that what happened on 911 was part of the plan to galvanize public opinion in support of the illegal wars in the Middle East. One has only to look at the timeline of when the FAA-governed control towers first observed that the airliners were hijacked and when they actually notified NORAD who controlled the interceptors. Written FAA policy states that when an airliner strays by as much as two miles off course and/or fails to respond for more than two minutes, controllers are to immediately assume that an hijacking is in progress. Additionally, one has only to look at the 640 mph average airspeeds of the four interceptors...each capable of 1400 mph...to realize that orders were given to ensure that the intercepts of the WTC and Pentagon airliners never took place. IMHO, Flight 93 was shot down that day...an eight mile debris trail along the flight path, to include an engine 2000 yards from the impact crater, is not what you find from an airliner being deliberately flown straight into the ground.

Oh, by the way, although I personally believe that this has absolutely NOTHING to do with anyone's ability to observe, analyze, and deduce, I will also reveal my military experience. I have five years active duty service as an enlisted man as well as an officer, and I was serving in the military as a Naval Gunfire Liaison Officer during the late 1970s with the Marines based at Las Pulgas in Camp Pendleton while you were just being born.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

23. How was I insulting? And if you were a NGLO in the LATE 70's

I am older than you, no?

[Lars39]

25. I think he was responding to post #4.

Colombia

[Media_Lies_Daily]

27. Thanks...I was indeed responding to the individual in your post.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

29. Hey, Scooter....

...I was responding to Columbia, not you.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

41. I see that. I could not follow the lines properly... ageism

mea culpa

[Media_Lies_Daily]

43. No problemo...we're on the same side.

[Columbia]

26. If you believe that, I have nothing to say

[Media_Lies_Daily]

28. That usually implies the waving of the white flag, no?

[Columbia]

30. Negative

You believe what you believe, and nothing I say will ever sway that.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

32. Correct. If you could give us a reason or two to consider your...

...point of view other than the ones you've given so far, perhaps we might give you the benefit of the doubt.

But, you are correct in a sense. Anyone honestly believing that the casualty figures as reported by the Pentagon are true amidst the sea of lies they have already told is, quite frankly, beyond my ability to comprehend.

[Columbia]

34. I was speaking of

Your belief in a 9-11 conspiracy that I find lacking of evidence. If you believe that then I will not bother to use logic or facts to counter anything you say, because it will obviously fail.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

36. I gave you plenty of leads to find the same evidence I've found...

...on the Internet. It's not my problem that you're too lazy to find the information yourself.

Speaking of "logic or facts", what have you posted on this topic that's within a continent or two of either word?

[Columbia]

37. It's not my claim, it's yours - you back it up yourself.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

38. A person is never so blind as one who chooses not to see.

[atreides1]

39. Lack of Evidence Does not mean it did not happen!

Just because something lacks evidence does not make it unlikely. Do you believe that there was a connection between Osama and Saddam, there is no hard evidence of that, but the majority of the American people do believe it.

Did you know that the German people did not believe that the Jews were being exterminated, mainly because at the time there was no evidence. They were told that the Jews were being sent to work camps,
where they would be safe.


There are many istances in history, where evidence did not turn up until well after an atrocity was committed.

By the way I was in Desert Storm, with the US Army, and let me give you a little information. The combat arms units are the ones that get
the good equipment. We combat support pukes got hand me downs, the 5-ton tractor that I was driving came off the assembly line when I was
4 years old, and I was born in 1959. I was 31 when I was in the desert
and had been in the army for 13 years, and most of the vehicles I was
assigned were either older then me or a few years younger.


From one vet to another, good job and welcome back.

[Columbia]

40. True

But I believe this theory has already been discussed widely here and there was even a DUer who is an ATC who worked during 9/11 and vouched that there was no conspiracy involved among ATC that day.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

And I just don't see it.

As for equipment, that may be how it is in the Army, but in the Marine Corps, we all have crappy equipment, combat arms and support alike. However, I did see some of the Force Recon guys with some really nice looking rigs. They had those new Benz jeep-like vehicles with weapons mounts. Very very cool. :evilgrin:

Thanks for your service, atreides. :toast:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

48. Your ATC friend wouldn't have worked high enough in the FAA...

...command structure to know who did what or why. None of the ATCs had to be involved at all...just had to be someone at some higher level capable of slowing down the process. Again, by policy, the FAA is required to notify NORAD once an airliner has gone off course, and/or stopped voice transmissions, and/or turned off their IFF transponders.

Can you or your friend successfully explain:

1. the FAA's thirty minute delay in getting the information on the hijacked planes to NORAD?

2. why the four interceptors flew at average speeds of 640 mph instead of near their maximum of 1400 mph?

3. why the planes were released from bases well behind the flight paths of the hijacked airliners? Hint: Two were launched from Otis ANG Base south of Boston, MA, and two were released from Langley AFB south of Hampton, VA. Andrews AFB outside Washington, DC, had TWO complete wings capable of performing intercept missions...why weren't they ordered into the air around DC?

LIST OF TWELVE AVAILABLE FIGHTER SQUADRONS CAPABLE OF INTERCEPTING THE FOUR AIRLINERS ON SEPTEMBER 11, 2001:

AFB = Air Force Base
ANG = Air National Guard

=====================================================

MARYLAND:

321ST USMC VMFA(F/A-18)Andrews AFB,MD
121ST ANG Fighter Squadron(F-16)Andrews AFB,MD

OHIO:

112TH ANG Fighter Squadron(F-16)Toledo Express Airport,OH
162ND ANG Fighter Squadron(F-16)Springfield-Beckley Int’l Airport,OH

MASSACHUSETTS:

101ST ANG Fighter Squadron(F-15)Otis ANGB,MA

NEW JERSEY:

119TH ANG Fighter Squadron(F-16)Atlantic City Int’l Airport,NJ

NEW YORK:

138TH ANG Fighter Squadron(F-16)Syracuse Hancock Int’l Airport,NY

VERMONT:

134TH ANG Fighter Squadron(F-16)Burlington Int’l Airport,VT

VIRGINIA:

149TH ANG Fighter Squadron(F-16)Richmond Int’l Airport,VA
27TH USAF Fighter Squadron(F-15)Langley Air Force Base,VA
71ST USAF Fighter Squadron(F-15)Langley Air Force Base,VA
94TH USAF Fighter Squadron(F-15)Langley Air Force Base,VA

================================================

Additionally, the following four A-10 squadrons could have been used in a last-ditch effort to put up a wall of fire to prevent the airliners from getting to their targets:
-----------------------------------------------

CONNECTICUT:

118TH ANG Fighter Squadron(A-10)Bradley Int’l Airport,CT

MARYLAND:

104TH ANG Fighter Squadron(A-10)Martin State Airport,MD

MASSACHUSETTS:

131ST ANG Fighter Squadron(A-10)Barnes Municipal Airport,MA

PENNSYLVANIA:

103RD ANG Fighter Squadron(A-10)Willow Grove Naval Air Station,PA

[Lars39]

19. There is NOTHING more legitimate than the total number of dead

and wounded. It IS legitimate to question whether the casualties who are wounded later die of their injuries, and if they are officially counted among dead. To question whether a soldier is given respect by correctly tallying him or her is NOT a "little pet conspiracy theory".

[Corgigal]

20. Our Doctor is in Iraq now

and who would know more about what the injuries are then him. He "hopes" to be back this month but I'll guess we will find out when our next appt is scheduled near the end of the month.
However he already told us, before he departed, that he has never in his life seen these types of injuries. He has seen a few former GI's without legs AND arms. He mentions the head trauma is unbelievable and this is because they are using bombs.
This same doctor served during Viet Nam and he told us he kicks himself constantly for not getting out of the guard when Bush came into office. He did mention that if he lives through this tour of duty he's also going to get out.
When he gets back I will share what he actually saw.

[midnight armadillo]

21. Bombs

I'm trying to figure out your doctor's statement. However he already told us, before he departed, that he has never in his life seen these types of injuries.

In Vietnam, were most injuries due then to small arms fire instead of bombs? I know the the Vietnam-era flak jackets weren't all that effective whereas the ceramic body armor (for those that have it) in Iraq works very well. Are the Iraqis switching to using bomb attacks because their small arms fire is less effective due to better body and vehicle armor, or because in the wide open desert landscapes you can't get as up close and personal for small arms as in the jungle? Can any of you much-more-experienced-than-my-civilian-self help me out here?

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

24. I have not been in desert combat, except in simulations in CA

But, I would guess that bombs are more prevalent than small arms fire, for 2 reasons.
1. Lack of cover and concealment.
2. We have lots of tanks and other armored vehicles.

That sort of terrain requires IED's and traps. Whereas in the jungle there is lots of cover, and not many tanks.

Capiche?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

44. Twentynine Palms?

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

46. Bingo... Hell in the Mojave.

I just love the wind blows up the fine sand into your nose, and the rotor wash drives pebbles through your skin.
Oh, I love that place.
China Lake was real nice too.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

49. Yuma/Chocolate Mountain was another wonderful place, too. Yikes.

[DemoTex]

31. One of my best friends was killed in 'Nam one week before DEROS ...

... in a jeep wreck near Pleiku. Accident. Another of my best friends was killed when he flew through the GT line of a ROK 105 arty battery near Tuy Hoa (the 1-in-10,000 chance in the gun-target line beat Bain that day). Accident. Another flew into the side of a mountain in the Chaine Annamatique, in the fog, in a F-100 ("Misty"). Accident. Another died in the Dalat weather monster, an every-afternoon severe thunderstorm - in the summer - over Dalat. Accident. Another died when he landed a Bird-Dog too hard on a strip, jammed the tail-wheel into the elevators, and attempted a full-power go-around. Accident. Another died in a freak accident in the motor pool, a gasoline fire. Accident. Another died in a perfectly good Marine F-4, on the high-penetration approach over the water to DaNang. Accident.

Anecdotal, but probably somewhat symptomatic of any war zone. I had fewer friends lost to hostile action than to accidents. But the aggregate was (and is) heart wrenching.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

42. Okay, are they listed on the wall?

Just curious.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

45. If you want to check their names on the Vietnam Memorial....

use this webpage:

<http://thewall-usa.com/>

....and scroll down to the search function.

If you want to know the criteria for inclusion on the wall, read this webpage:

<http://thewall-usa.com/information/>

Here's the pertinent paragraph regarding name selection:

"In February 1981, DOD supplied the VVMF with a computer database representing the casualty list which included those known dead or missing in action. The list included casualties from battle or hostile causes and those from accidental causes. After a lengthy process of cross checking the lists and working with each branch of the military, the VVMF used its discretion in adding some names that had been overlooked, but which still met the criteria."

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

47. That is what I thought, that they had done that... see when I was

there, those killed were not listed on the wall. The "war" was over. There were some poor dumb grunts who died and did not get a purple heart or a national defense ribbon.
Parents were told they died "in training accidents" out on carriers or in helicopter crashes with inflated numbers, especially at sea.

Sucks, don't it?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

50. Big time.

[leftofthedial]

33. I believe we are being lied to about the number of casualties

I also believe it is disgusting that DOD is classifying war wounded in every way possible to NOT call them KIA.

I regret and mourn every death in Iraq, American and otherwise.

What's more, I thank you vets who have posted in this thread for your service. You men and women are tops in my book.