Simon Wiesenthal Center criticises moveon.org for posting ad

[grok]

January 4, 2004

SIMON WIESENTHAL CENTER CRITICIZES MOVEON.ORG FOR POSTING AD COMPARING BUSH TO HITLER

The Simon Wiesenthal Center sharply criticized MoveOn.org for accepting and posting an ad comparing President George Bush to Adolf Hitler.

“Politics and preparing for a presidential election is one thing, but comparing the Bush Administration’s fight against Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein with the policies of Adolf Hitler is shameful and beyond the pale and has no place in the legitimate discourse of American politics,” said Rabbi Marvin Hier, the Center’s dean and founder.

“This ad is not about Democrats or Republicans - it is about lies and a distortion of history,” he added.

MoveOn.org was right to pull the ad but they should apologize for not using better judgment in posting it in the first place,” Hier concluded.

<snip>

http://www.wiesenthal.com/social/press/pr_item.cfm?ItemID=8720

For those that don't know. this is the owrld famous org that hunts down Nazis and puts them on trial.

Something like this brings out alot of questions.

Has the organization been paid off by the repugs? Remember Arnold.
Are we associating too much with the wrong people?
Are we delusional?
Or is this org. and their protests meaningless?

Grok

[truthisfreedom]

1. although i think that the particular ad in question wasn't effective

i really think these people should do a little background check on the bush family.

[Karenina]

81. Actually it's quite brilliant

but flies W-A-A-A-Y too high and fast for general consumption. It only hit me between the eyes (KA-BOF!!! :silly:) as I read Kellanved's translation of the audio on a GD thread (I glaze over hearing the creepy voice and could barely pick out the nouns) while simultaneously reading the *chimp quotes in the subtitles. It has NOTHING to do with them "saying the same thing" and EVERYTHING to do with mindless emotional blather and its impact. The only people who have a remote possibility of "getting it" in 30 seconds ALREADY GET IT. So you're correct, it's ineffective.

That said, after reading replies here I SIMPLY WANT TO SCREAM!!! NEVER AGAIN MEANS NEVER AGAIN MEANS NEVER AGAIN!!!!! AND IT'S HAPPENING AGAIN WHILE PEOPLE CLING TO THEIR BLIND SPOTS AS IT FICKEN HAPPENS AGAIN RIGHT UNDER THEIR NOSES!!!

OK, forget comparing *crusaderbunnypants directly. What is required in this instance is some deduction and critical thought. *dimson is no more than a plastic blow-up doll frontman. He actually "protects" the "Hitler incarnate forces" who have propped him up from the charge as anyone can see he's an ineffectual pompous ass and a nitwit. It's difficult, as the "Hitler" we now face is not a "he" but a THEY. If you're NOT familiar with PNAC, GO READ IT. If you're NOT familiar with Zbignew Brzenzki's "The Grand Chess Game," GO READ IT. If you do not understand the connexion between Allen Dulles, the CIA and the REAL LIVE IMPORTED AND INSTALLED IN THE U.S. GUBMINT VINTAGE WWII NAZIS, GO LOOK IT UP! There is a MOUNTAIN of information on on this board. If you are NOT aware of the BFEE FAMILY CONNEXIONS to the NAZIS, or the positions held by same during Poppy's "reign," PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, JUST GO LOOK IT UP and GET YOUR FICKEN HEAD OUT OF THE SAND. The grit is interfering with your eyes, ears and brain.

This "Fourth Reich" has learned well from its predecessor's errors. NO INCRIMINATING PHOTOS. NO WELL KEPT STATISTICS. Simply institute policies that accomplish the same ends under cover of darkness. Only those who take the time to analyse the ash on their windowsills will catch on. And THEY'RE easily taken care of by the media-fed "Rhinoceroses" in the neighborhood. (see: Ionesco)

What do YOU think is going on when the mother of 2 U.S. miliitary servicemen fears for her safety in her own neighborhood? (See Mari333's thread in the Lounge). What do YOU think is going on when the "transfer tubes" of dead soldiers are slipped into Dover AFB, NO PRESS COVERAGE ALLOWED? What do YOU think is going on when you take a risk of police notice BY CARRYING A FICKEN ALMANAC??? What do YOU think is going on when 2 YEARS after a 3 HUGE BUILDING and SEVERAL CORPORATIONS CRASH, you still have NO IDEA what happened and it's "business as usual?" What do YOU think is going on as BILLIONS of your tax dollars are going into the pockets of *corporate cronies, leaving YOU with no health care, a crumbling infrastructure, a depleted 401K and some VERY SERIOUSLY ANGRY COWS???

As for "diluting the memory of the Holocaust," the attachment to superior victimhood has managed to do so quite well, thank you. So much so that folks can't seem to SMELL THE SMOKE THAT IS NOW, TODAY COMING FROM THE CHIMNEYS! EVERYONE is getting burned this time around, folks. I mean EVERYONE. They've LEARNED from their mistakes. Don't target such an identifiable demographic at first... it's MUCH TOO OBVIOUS! Go for the generic "weak" of the society. PLEASE WAKE UP AMERICA. IT'S ALREADY PLAYING AT A THEATRE NEAR YOU!!!

Forgive my rant, kids. I pray that my rather stark references do not offend, do understand my passion here, we're facing a death-dealing monster and as long as we remain in denial, our very survival is at stake.

[0rganism]

106. Amen! Preach on, Sistah!

"It Can't Happen Here."

Well, It's Happened Here before, and my preliminary prognosis is It's Happening again. If this isn't what It looks like in the early stages, then I'll gladly pay off any bets the naysayers care to make with me. One thing is clear for sure: we have to unite and fight this November like nothing we've ever done before, to stop It before It stops us.

Rant on. For every three people you might annoy, there's one person who agrees and another who wakes up.

[BenFranklinUSA]

172. Bush is neither Hitler, Stalin, etc.

...and to suggest otherwise excludes you from being taken seriously, just as the 'ad' wasn't taken seriously (though funny) by the panel.

For those who wish to continue this, YOU undermine this party's credibilty, so shut the f-iretr-uck up.

There, that's my rant.

[Karenina]

175. Didya read

about the *admin's cuts on OT pay?

[BenFranklinUSA]

176. wha? you're off topic. n/t

[The Zanti Regent]

2. Hier is a GOP bigwig

He was also a big Arnold supporter, of course Arnold put a lot of $$$$ in his pocket...

[Cronus Protagonist]

3. Apparently some Jews think they own the intellectual property, "Hitler"

I see that complaint over and over. It seems as if some Jewish people identify with Hitler as the ultimate nemisis and don't want to see that diluted by association with modern day "hitlers".

Next, we'll no doubt hear from the Republican Log Cabin Club supporting the Simon Wiesenthal Center on the grounds that it's also demeaning to the Rebulican gays that were also exterminated by Hitler.

It's a strange world we live in today :)

"Lick Bush" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. My criticism of the Wiesenthal Center is they deny the very history of

how the Nazi's came to be by responding in this manner to the MoveOn ad. They certainly didn't have any trouble piping up when Poppy made Fred Malek (Nixon's Jew counter in the White house ala the famous statement "thos Jews in the state department" during one of Nixon's infamous rants) his campaign manager.

I actually ceased my contributions to them over their defense of Arnold.

[IndianaGreen]

42. The history of how the Nazis came to power is ignored

We look at Hitler and Nazi Germany through the prism of the Holocaust, not realizing that the Holocaust did not begin until Krystallnacht in 1938. We also fail to realize that murder on a mass scale was made possible by the war. Germans did not question their government or their military, particularly during wartime. This "ignore function" was very useful to the Nazis when it came time to make entire populations disappear.

We also fail to see that the crimes of the Holocaust, of which Jews were not the only victims, were not unique in human history. The crimes of the Holocaust, the systematic extermination of an entire group of people, had happened in the Americas when the Spaniards wiped out entire civilizations. Those that were not murdered, were forced to convert at the point of the sword.

Perhaps the biggest mistake we can make is to think that Americans, by virtue of their race, are immune from committing the same sort of crimes the Germans did. This is the same sort of racism that convinced Germans that they were special in the eyes of God, and that they could rule the world.

[NV1962]

45. Whoa

the Holocaust did not begin until Krystallnacht in 1938

Sounds politically correct - if only it were supported by facts. The first Nazi concentration camp opened its doors in 1933 (you can find one source here).

Then, onto this gem:

the Spaniards wiped out entire civilizations

Oh, really? They were the most clear examples of that that deliberate targeted enterprise, just as the Nazis did? Or... Is this merely popular hyperbole, propagated by targeted speculation armed chiefly with a presumably majoritary white, anglophile and protestant nod and wink?

Now don't get me wrong - Pizarro and friends weren't forerunners of Amnesty International - but you'd be closer to the truth if you'd aim at the corporate hands that pushed for war 105 years ago, and whose illegitimate heirs still resent that pesky belief in self-determination.

Genocide is more than anything the corporate response to cultural resistance against "globalization" of imperial power.

[Tinoire]

47. The Holocaust wasn't until later

IG is talking about the Jewish Holocaust which didn't begin until

Between 1937-8, Jews were added as Germany's anti-Semitic campaign was set in motion. With a population of 15,000 prisoners, the camp was one of slave labor, with German Communists at the top.

http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/camps.html

The prior camps were work camps mostly dedicated to political prisoners. At least that's what I've always learned.

==

Camps were an essential part of the Nazis' systematic oppression and mass murder of Jews, political adversaries, and others considered socially and racially undesirable. There were concentration camps, forced labor camps, extermination or death camps, transit camps, and prisoner-of-war camps. The living conditions of all camps were brutal.

Dachau , one of the first Nazi concentration camps, opened in March 1933, and at first interned only known political opponents of the Nazis: Communists, Social Democrats, and others who had been condemned in a court of law. Gradually, a more diverse group was imprisoned, including Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, Gypsies , dissenting clergy, homosexuals, as well as others who were denounced for making critical remarks about the Nazis.

Six death or extermination camps were constructed in Poland. These so-called death factories were Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Belzec , Sobibór, Lublin (also called Majdanek ), and Chelmno . The primary purpose of these camps was the methodical killing of millions of innocent people. The first, Chelmno, began operating in late 1941. The others began their operations in 1942.


http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/timeline/camps.htm

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. The war started in '36

with the Nuremberg Racial Purity laws, to be exact.

But that is not the point, in many ways Simon Wiezenthal and many
other survivors are suffering from PTSD and cannot see that Bush
is a descendant of Hitler

Patriot II is the Enabling Act of '33 and I have hit my head against
many a survivor over this point

[IndianaGreen]

105. The war began on September 1, 1939

with Germany's retaliation against Poland for an unprovoked cross-border attack against a German radio station.

The italics is the official German version of what happened, pretty much along the same lines of our Pentagon.

The truth, which was not entirely known at the time, was the massive German blitzkrieg into Poland.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gimel]

74. Since you make this accusation

I assume that you are someone who has checked on the facts. So care to back up your statement?

[BOSSHOG]

5. I wonder if the SWC would have objected

if someone or some organization had made an effort to expose Hitler in the 30's? I guess that would have been "shameful and beyond the pale."

[GregW]

6. Oh well ... I guess they won't like this either ...

:eyes:

[Just Me]

9. OH, and I will be using THAT pic as counter-ammo *LOL*

[0007]

72. That photo sez a million - "Sieg Heil"

Did I say it right?

[Cronus Protagonist]

149. Or any of these....

[Just Me]

7. Moveon is a fabulous organization,...

,...and I, for one, don't get bent out of shape by a error in judgment based in large measure upon passion. Besides, they did the right thing and pulled the ad. That is enough unless they choose to apologize for being passionate in their belief that the Bush administration is using the same kind of war propaganda that was generated by Hitler and Goebbels.

In the meanwhile, I am confident they will learn from the experience and find an equally effective means of communicating the message they wished to convey.

[w13rd0]

8. Excuse me...

...are they bitching about an ad submitted for the Bush in 30 seconds spot? Those were user submitted ads. PLEASE, get a life already. Don't like the ad, vote it 1 star in all categories. BFD.

[bemildred]

10. They seem a bit confused.

I don't think it's the "fight against Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein"
that he being compared to Hitler because of. It's more likely his
attacks on our civil rights and representative government and
repressive police tactics, and things like that.

The other question, of course, is who appointed this bozo to tell
us what is appropriate to say in political dialog? I think his
attack on moveon.org and implying that it objects to the hunt for
Bin Laden is completely outside the pale and he should shut up.

[grok]

12. SW will be singing a different tone.

When Repug speech codes are mandated on campuses. When Conservative professors are the only ones on campus and pushing the neocon agenda. When people are not allowed to protest on the internet and streets and in the press. By then it will be too late.

Grok

[aquart]

16. No, no, George is a hero for "fighting" Saddam and Osama.

And Rabbi Hier isn't likely to compare the murder of fifty million Muslims (that would be the minimum number for taking and holding the MidEast oil and Caspian Basin, don't you think?) to that of six million Jews because his Judaism doesn't include "Remember what it felt like to be a slave in the land of Egypt," the Passover injunction to understand the suffering of others.

Frankly, my biggest objection to comparing George and Adolf is that Adolf was a competent demogogue who could be trusted to give a speech in public. Adolf was exemplary at commanding his image, while acting Satan. George is simply embarrassing.

On the bones of David Weiner, my great grandfather, and his wife, his sons, his daughters but one, and their wives and husbands and children, none of whom survived, I stand and say that Rabbi Hier can stuff it in an orifice and he doesn't speak for me or mine.

[bemildred]

31. Well said.

I think some dead Russians would be required too.
Shalom.

[durutti]

48. More to the point...

There *is no* fight against al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein. There's a fight for empire thinly veiled as a fight against al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein.

[Zhade]

49. DING DING DING!

We have a winner!

[legin]

11. Just ignore them

There are some organisations who you would have thought would have known better than to go over to the darkside, but this does not appear to be the case with the Simon Wiesenthal Center unfortunaltly.

:sigh:

[HEyHEY]

13. I can see their point

Bush is a prick, yes. But he is not Hitler. And if I was jewish I would think it trivial to compare what Hitler did to my people to what Bush has done.

We seem to have a habit of comparing everyone we dislike to hitler in this world. As a joke is one thing but when it is done seriously it's kind of juvenile.

[Karenina]

15. HEyHEY,

Your viewpoint is a very mainstream one. The issue is what the forces he's fronting for have done and are doing will make Hitler's reign look like a Boy Scout outing. One need only check out the well-documented historical connexions and look with a clear and steady eye at what is happening NOW. *dimson himself isn't "worthy" to to lick Hitler's jackboots. *HE can't even string a coherent sentence together. That is NOT the point. However, the political forces he represents are NOT A JOKE. Those of us here where the shit happened, who have the benefit of the knowledge and insight of those who LIVED THROUGH IT are not amused.

[HEyHEY]

18. I don't think, as much as I dislike Bush, that he is planning on...

Wiping out a race of people. If I would compare Bush to anyone, I'd compare him to the British rulers of the 17-1800s. What did you mean by "here" and "not amused" I'm a bit confused.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

21. Do some research on the goals of PNAC, and then come back....

...and tell us what you learn.

[Norquist Nemesis]

157. Not a race of people but certainly a class or two

While we hear people screaming about the comparisons of Bush to Hitler, we need to remember one of the questions asked about Hitler's rise to power. That is, "how did we let this happen?" While it's incredible and unbelievable for some to believe this of Bush, did Hitler supporters see into the future? And once they began to doubt, did they find the possibilities of things to come incredible and unbelievable?

Promoting a see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil behavior only allows evil to creep in and flourish.

[Zhade]

80. Exactly. The Bush Cabal has horrific potential.

So many people forget that it took a number of years for Nazi Germany to become the horror it later became.

(By the way, tell your son that Matt says hi!)

[aquart]

19. It is not what Bush "has done."

It is what he WILL do.

And if you think the "prick" isn't willing to murder millions of people in order to claim and hold the Middle East and Caspian Basin, you haven't been paying attention.

Bush is a fascist head of state. Hitler was a prominent fascist head of state. The comparison is entirely apt.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

20. Give the Chimpster a chance....

...after all, it took Hitler a good seven to eight years before the Nazis formulated their final solution. Junior has only been in office for three years...no telling what might happen if the NeoCons are given another four years to operate.

No, Junior is not Hitler....yet.

Do some research on this topic before you start calling other posters' opinions "juvenile".

[HEyHEY]

22. Oh are we gonna start one of these?

Let's just skip all the pleasantries and get straight to the name calling then.

Calling Bush Hitler is overreaction. Plain and simple.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

43. You must have missed the opening post on this subject....

...I believe the post was COMPARING Junior to Hitler, not saying that Junior is CURRENTLY Hitler.

There are perfectly valid reasons to COMPARE Junior to Hitler at this point in time. He has partnered with:

1. the major corporations to give them everything they want to include massive tax breaks, thus creating millions of additional members for the lower class.

2. the extreme political/religious rightwing to not only take control of all three branches of the Federal Government...Executive, Legislative, and Judicial...but has also signed into law several pieces of legislation basically eliminating civil rights.

3. the military to give them everything they want and to essentially turn them loose on third-world countries. The draft will soon be reinstated in 2005, giving them a nearly inexhaustible source of manpower to go after Iran, Syria, North Korea, and any other country that becomes "aligned with terrorism".

Given even more time and more reasons, Junior may actually become a much closer match to Hitler than anyone of us could have dreamed.

You Canadians better hope like heck that Junior does not become a full-blown modern version of Hitler. His first steps will be to secure the New Reich's borders by absorbing the neighbors. That puts you and Mexico on an extremely short list, doesn't it? Burying your head in the sand and pretending it's not happening is not going to help you.

[HEyHEY]

68. I'm not pretending it's not happening

I just don't think it is a severe as most do. The comparisons you made are things that have been done by many powerful right-wing nation. That doesn't make it okay. But many other nations have done such things without going as far as Hitler did. Also, maybe I'm confused, but didn't Hitler dislike Christianity and set up his own religion? I could be mis-informed but I thought that's what happened.

[Zhade]

82. There's an ENORMOUS difference.

Germany, at the beginning of Hitler's reign, was one of the least powerful countries on Earth.

The United States is THE most powerful.

Do the math.

[Karenina]

94. Exactamundo!

.

[0rganism]

116. You are confused. Hitler was a "devout" Lutheran

Some of his weirder cohorts, like Himmler, were into the whole Aryan-Norse-Thule rebirth thing, but Hitler apparently stayed about as true to his version of Christianity as any bloodthirsty power-grabbing politician can.

[LiberalBushFan]

63. do we have to wait until he his deeds reach Hitleresque proportions

before we make the comparisons? That defeats the purpose. Do you really think he'd mind millions of minorities or foreigners being put into concentration camps? I sense some pink tutu.

[HEyHEY]

70. Yes, we do

Until Bush starts putting gold stars on minorities and actually start PUTTING minorities in camps. I'm afraid the two aren't in the same league.

[Just Me]

73. Point is, Hitler is an icon for evil and very divisive,...

,...and we do have to exercise great wisdom before holding Dubya and Hitler, side by side. I don't condemn those on discussion boards for being passionate about their position that our particular regime is in certain respects acting like that of Hitler and his propagandists, and about their concerns that we may "MAY" be witnessing a development similar to the Nazi regime.

However, in terms of representations to the public, to bring the Hitler icon into the arena is simply inaccurate and too shocking. We are better served communicating the anti-democracy actions, quoting the wisdom of our own past leaders, perhaps even questioning what and whether democracy is as strong as it has been in the past than using some form of shock therapy.

Moveon did the right thing. I am certain they accepted that the ad went too far. I look forward to them creating an ad every bit as effective without bringing the divisive Hitler icon into it.

[BigDaddyLove]

86. I'm not sure that Move on did the right thing...........

they didn't create the ad in the first place, so they aren't going to do another one without Hitler in it. These ads are created by regular people who are expressing their dislike with Bush and Co. in a 30 second spot.

Seems to me that Moveon felt some pressure and decided to censure a participant rather than defend the videomaker's speech rights; it was just easier to give in to the criticism than to fight it.

Weak, but what are 'ya gonna do?

[Just Me]

96. My view is that exercising wisdom is not a form of weakness.

I respect your point of view and believe I have some sense of the passion involved (being a supporter of Moveon, myself). However, further dividing an already divided country is not, in my humble view, wise. I sincerely believe that Moveon, its supporters and constituents, can and will communicate very serious concerns about this administration to a broader audience without using an icon such as Hitler. But, that position is "Just Me". And we are all entitled to our positions. I simply respectfully disagree with yours.

[BigDaddyLove]

101. I too feel that those concerns can effectively be.......

conveyed without resorting to mentioning Hitler in the same sentence as Bush, and in fact I think it does more harm than good.

I was just saying that since Moveon decided to accept this particular spot for it's competition in the first place, I wish they'd have simply defended this participant's right to express him/herself in whatever way they felt they needed to in order to get their ideas across, rather than yanking it because it offended someone.

You and I are in agreement with the broader issue, but only differ on how Moveon reacted to criticism.

[Mairead]

75. He *IS* putting minorities in camps, pal

Who do you think those people in Guantanamo are, and by what internationally-recognised authority are they being kept there without counsel or trial?

The answer: they are 'ragheads' who made the mistake of resisting the Bush invasion of their country. They're being detained by fiat, not operation of law. Just as the Nazis did.

[HEyHEY]

77. It is different, no matter how much you want it to be the same

Bush hasn't gone throughout the USA and rounded up all the Arabs, given them special papers and a star and shipped them off to die in concentration camps.

[TankLV]

145. Aparently, you don't know very much on the subject.

No "stars" needed, but just how do you think all those persons have ended up in GITMO?

Do you know that they have built execution chambers - like those in other death-row prisons - already, and they are already functioning?

Do you know that only bunkerboy has so far the authority to say who is or is not an "enemy combatant"? - even US Citzens who he said would expressly NOT be subject to his edict?

Do you know that only he is the sole judge, jury, and executioner, without any trial, without any defense permitted the accused?

Does ANY of this ring a bell, or do you just refuse to see how, except for a fucking "star", all items you have suggested have already occured?

And Hitler only got up to speed after being in power after at least 8 years!

[HEyHEY]

169. Good grief

I know all that stuff. But what you are neglecting to say is that the detainees are there as a result in the war against terror. Not as a result of just being Arab, although some of them are I'm sure. Has Bushed gassed millions of them? Has he raped their wives? Has he siezed their land and sold off their personal property? Is this an act of agression started stricitly based on their race and nothing more? No, it's not. By comparing the two you make it easy for people to dismiss what you have to say as "extremist"

[Fish-Slapping_Dance]

170. I agree

All these kinds of over-the-top hyperbolic comparisons, while they may give us the giggles and make us feel better about ourselves, will, IMHO, only serve to turn off key independent voters we will need in November.

Remember, Bush is the incumbent now, with all of the electoral advantages that comes with incumbency. We will need every vote we can get to defeat him. This kind of juvenile nonsense will not help us in that endeavor.

Someone mentioned that maybe such ads might get people to thinking, "Hmm, how does Bush compare to Hitler," as if by so doing they'll come over to our side. I believe that, in actuality, they will turn and run.

I believe that the average voter, the one we will need in November, doesn't want to think that Bush is some kind of monster. Any insistence by groups like moveon.org that they do will only serve, IMO, to repel them instead.

Just my opinion. YMMV.

[TankLV]

144. Name one single thing in the ads that is not factual or wrong or mispoken?

Just one.

You couldn't because there isn't a single factual error in the comparison.

Are the pictures fabricated?

Are the statements fabricated?

NO!

And THAT is the problem - because the comparisons hit too close to home!

It's just the IDEA and THOUGHT of MAKING ANY comparisons, however true, that upset some, including yourself.

THAT IS THE POINT OF THE ADS!

[RUexperienced]

14. The SIMON WIESENTHAL CENTER is VRWC

and everybody knows it. (/sarcasm)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

17. I guess they believe the Chimpster's lies, too....

...then again, anyone fighting Israel's enemies for them has to be seen by the SWC as a valuable asset.

[mbperrin]

23. Hmm..guess the Center missed these facts about "Hitler's Angel"

http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=NN_Bush_Nazi%20Link

WASHINGTON - After 60 years of inattention and even denial by the U.S. media, newly-uncovered government documents in The National Archives and Library of Congress reveal that Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush, served as a business partner of and U.S. banking operative for the financial architect of the Nazi war machine from 1926 until 1942, when Congress took aggressive action against Bush and his "enemy national" partners.

The documents also show that Bush and his colleagues, according to reports from the U.S. Department of the Treasury and FBI, tried to conceal their financial alliance with German industrialist Fritz Thyssen, a steel and coal baron who, beginning in the mid-1920s, personally funded Adolf Hitler's rise to power by the subversion of democratic principle and German law.

Furthermore, the declassified records demonstrate that Bush and his associates, who included E. Roland Harriman, younger brother of American icon W. Averell Harriman, and George Herbert Walker, President Bush's maternal great-grandfather, continued their dealings with the German industrial baron for nearly eight months after the U.S. entered the war.

and a whole lot more.......

[grok]

25. SW cuts some slack for the fathers.

Arnold's dad was a honest-to-god. rootin' tootin' Nazi. Of course he gave them some bucks to hunt nazis with.

Guess they don't care about the sins of the fathers. Maybe because it was different times with diferent moral centers.

Hat justifies everything to some.


Grok

[mbperrin]

26. So why not go after

the fathers? After all GHW Bush brought some of that Nazi money to Texas to make even more money and surely that Nazi investment has some relevance to *Bush being selected as the pResident?

edited to correct initials - I always have trouble with people's names I hate like poison!

[grok]

28. Good. question!

However, my understanding is that FDR confiscated the banks and nazi holdings that prescott and others ran. I am not sure FDR could have done better. Was there any Nazi money left that prescott could use? Maybe somebody here has the REAL numbers or reasonable estimate.

Tree

[mbperrin]

29. Read further in the article..the fed govt gave Bush a million

dollars to reimburse him for his loss!

It would be nice if the state would give you money back after they fined you for speeding, wouldn't it?

[grok]

33. Gee that was nice of FDR.

What as the value of what they confiscated? what did prescott actually invest out of his pocket that was not nazi profit?

[mbperrin]

34. That WAS nice, wasn't it? Being in business with Harriman Bros

made it great, I'm sure. How much? I'll look around, and why don't you?

[grok]

37. Think I will.

I am curious too to what are the real #s. It would be hilarious if they would up losing money. Justified I am sure.

I was hoping you had the real #s. I wouldn't bother then. No sense reinventing the wheel.

Grok

[NV1962]

24. Yawn

It's nice they're going after campaign ads, but don't they have war criminals and Hitler supporters to go after... like W's family?

[leesa]

27. They better start friggin thinking about the similarities

They are being spared initially because we need our toehold in Israel and the Rapturists need the Jewish people in control of Jerusalem to carry out their fantasies, but our "christian" (as in fake christians)countrymen hate Jewish people as much as they always have and they will be persecuted after the Muslims.

[truthspeaker]

166. they are only protecting them now

so they can help God throw them into the lake of fire later. It's all in the book.

[legin]

30. This is quite a seedy little political move too

Give it a couple of months, and whenever MoveOn.org are mentioned by Faux it will be "... and MoveOn.org, who were roundly criticized by the The Simon Wiesenthal Center a couple of months ago,..." (with a 'and we all know what that means' look).

[Muddleoftheroad]

32. There are few like Hitler

And * isn't enough of a scumbag to tie Hitler's shoelaces. To compare the two is to make all of our arguments appear ludicrous to even those who should be our friends in this fight. The Wiesenthal Center is a prime example. By citing Hitler again and again, we cheapen what evil truly means.

Maybe 10 or 20 years from now, the comparison will be accurate and God help us if that turns out to be true. But to claim it now is embarrassing and foolish.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

44. Yes, there are very few like Hitler. Thank goodness we haven't had one...

...in the past. But it's rapidly starting to look like we will have one in the very near future. Don't forget that it took Hitler all of seven or eight years to consolidate his power and that of the Nazi Party. Junior's only got three years under his belt.

By the way, since when is stating an opinion on the DU boards "embarrassing and foolish"? You're starting to sound like our freeper friends who only want to read opinions exactly like their own.

[Muddleoftheroad]

55. The DU boards are public

Foolish statements here then represent us elsewhere. To compare one of the worse evils of all time with the minor league caliber of * is indeed embarrassing.

Worse, it alienates us from those who should be our allies, further driving a wedge between us and Jewish voters who understand what the word "Hitler" really means and how different it is from the one that is Bush league.

[HEyHEY]

71. umm

SO far you have told me not to call people's opinions juvenile and you've told muddle no to say they are embarrasing and foolish. If you are going to insist on telling us what to say, me thinks tis thee sporing a touch of the freep.

[HEyHEY]

69. I agree 100 per cent

Comparing the two is over the top. As I said before, Bush is more like the imperialisitic British Government 150 years ago.

[TankLV]

146. Name one thing in the ads that is not factual or a lie?

Just one.

I'm still waiting.

I won't hold my breath.

Those of us who have thought the ads were entirely correct and proper, have refuted every single one of those of you who claim that whatever reason bush is not like hitler. Every single one.

The camps.
The roundups.

The statements in the ads are actual recordings and statements from both men! Is that in error?

Exactly which comparisons were not correct or truthful.

Just one, please.

[donco6]

35. I can see many similarities.

And I don't see a problem with pointing them out.

SWC doesn't have a copyright on Hitler.

[Dirk39]

36. Did I miss their reaction, when Bush and co....

stated, Saddam Hussein would be worse than Hitler and Stalin?
Not to mention that the same guys and girls used their veto right in the UN, when the UN was trying to ban the use of chemical weapons through the government of Iraq. What did the Wiesenthal center said then?
I don't remember their statements, would be interesting to know...
Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[dansolo]

38. Did this guy also complain about all of the Saddam/Hitler comparisons?

Saddam Hussien was a thug (who was supported by the U.S.), but he was no Hitler.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

39. No I am sure he did not. So what would you call someone

who invades a country against international law for domestic political gain?

[0rganism]

107. Adolf Hitler? George W. Bush? Is this a trick question?

Anyhoo, it's pretty obvious which basket has the SWC eggs.

[symbolman]

40. These guys came after me too in the LA TIMES

for my "Bush is Not a Nazi so stop saying that.." animation --

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

I haven't the foggiest idea why.. they of ALL PEOPLE should recognize a nazi when they see one..

they have NO SHAME.. their own people say NEVER FORGET -- does this guy have Alzheimers or something?

Idiot. NO excuse for his shilling..

those millions didn't die so he could praise bush..

[NV1962]

41. Wiesenthal and RNC's Ed Gillespie are in amazing sync!

Check out the 2nd story, on this page...

[grok]

46. gillespie isn't in sync.

He is just taking blatant advantage of a weakness/flaw/whatever. Salt on your enemy's wound kind of thing. It will all die down in a week or so.

[diamond14]

84. here's the quotes....'Jewish groups' and RNC speak in same voice

"This is the worst and most vile form of political hate speech," Republican National Committee Chairman Ed Gillespie said in a statement. He also called on the Democratic presidential candidates to renounce the ad.


...... Jewish groups expressed their outrage.

"To use Hitler in a way like this is grotesque and outrageous. He was such a heinous individual that it's unseemly to bring him into the American political debate," said James Tisch, chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations.

[Barkley]

50. Conditional Ignorance

When I was an undergrad at UCLA 25 years ago I had a work-study gig for a professor (Deborah Lipstadt, I think?) who was writing a book on the American Jewish reaction to what was happening in Nazi Germany in early 1940s.

My job was to search the NY Times and WP, and Philly Inquirer for articles on and about the experiences of recent Jewish immigrants from Germany.

I was really surprised to find out how much was people actually knew about the Nazi's plans. Prior to this job, I held the impression that holocaust was something discovered AFTER the war ended.

Hitler's campaign against Jews was very clear and explicit. And I couldn't understand why more Jews did not attempt to escape. Of course many eventually did and some were turned away even by the U.S. Government, who also had full knowledge of what was going on.

I was told that in some cases, Jews could not believe what was happening and that some people believed that they were being sent to vacations when the Germans put them on trains headed to the concentration camps.

I recently read an article by Karen Kwiwitoski(sp) {Former Air Force Officer of "Uncovered" fame} who seemingly had some answer to my dilemma. She used/coined the phrase "conditional ignorance" in one of her recent pieces. It the belief that catastrophic misfortunes like economic depressions, government insolvency, and military defeats/ coupes simply can't happen to us.

I was in DC in the summer of 1998 when a deranged gunman killed two Capitol Hill guards. According to press accounts of the incident when the gunshots rang out in the Capitol its was the foreign tourists who promptly took cover; the American tourists kept walking unfazed-- believing the that popping sounds that they surely heard could not have possibly been gunshots.

No doubt conditional ignorance played a part in our intelligence agencies failures regarding the 9-11 attacks. I watched the attacks on the WTC real time and I recall the newscaster speculating the approaching second plan was probably on a mission to douse the first tower with water.

Since 9-11, our government has steadily moved down the slippery slope toward fascism. First with the U.S. Patriot Act (and Patriot Act II is in the wings); "watch what you say" and "you either stand with me or stand with the terrorist"; unilateral wars against defenseless countries; mass registrations for males from "designated countries"; dentension of U.S. citizens and others without due process; FBI surveillance of antiwar groups and Tommy Franks ominous warning that the Constitution would probably not survive another 9-11 terrorist attack.

Today, its refreshing to see so many DUers are alert to the foreboding events in America but its disappointing to see SWC like most of the public, mared in conditional ignorance.

Carol Mosley Braun recently said that if Bush is re-elected "that Americans would not recognize the country in five years". I believe the country fundamentally different from what it was prior to Bush's Presidency.

(pardon the long post, I just had to get this off my chest.)

[nofurylike]

66. pat II isn't in the wings

bush signed that new law the day that saddam was captured.
it has been called the stealth method of legislating.

12/13/2003 Became Public Law No: 108-177.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:h.r.02417:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:HR02417:@@@X

*ed for typo

[nofurylike]

67. to be more exact:

http://www.victoria.indymedia.org/news/2003/12/19799.php
http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/unitedstates/democracy/1370.html


Bush signs parts of Patriot Act II into law — stealthily
San Antonio Current
December 24, 2003
David Martin


O n December 13, when U.S. forces captured Saddam Hussein, President George W. Bush not only celebrated with his national security team, but also pulled out his pen and signed into law a bill that grants the FBI sweeping new powers. A White House spokesperson explained the curious timing of the signing - on a Saturday - as "the President signs bills seven days a week." But the last time Bush signed a bill into law on a Saturday happened more than a year ago - on a spending bill that the President needed to sign, to prevent shutting down the federal government the following Monday.

-snip-

This broadening of the Patriot Act represents a political victory for the Bush Administration's stealth legislative strategy to increase executive power. Last February, shortly before Bush launched the war on Iraq, the Center for Public Integrity obtained a draft of a comprehensive expansion of the Patriot Act, nicknamed Patriot Act II, written by Attorney General John Ashcroft's staff. Again, the timing was suspicious; it appeared that the Bush Administration was waiting for the start of the Iraq war to introduce Patriot Act II, and then exploit the crisis to ram it through Congress with little public debate.


The leak and ensuing public backlash frustrated the Bush administration's strategy, so Ashcroft and Co. disassembled Patriot Act II, then reassembled its parts into other legislation. By attaching the redefinition of "financial institution" to an Intelligence Authorization Act, the Bush Administration and its Congressional allies avoided public hearings and floor debates for the expansion of the Patriot Act.

-snip-

****

peace

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Grok many holocaust survivors have not made the

connection, their chidren, on the other hand... have

And some survivors have as well

As to Simon Wiesenthal, anybody wants to send him a copy of Soros's book? He is also a holocaust survivor, seems Mr. Wiesenthal needs a tad of an education

And yes I say this as a child of the Holocaust... and my father was also part of the Hitler travel plan... and I have met more than one survivor that has closed his or her mind to the possibitily that George is going down the same road

[davhill]

53. More like Marcos than Hitler

Hitler has be come a great symbol of the evils of the late 20th century. There are a lot of greedy little dictators around who have used fear to trample on democracy while enriching themselves and their cronies. Marcos in the Philippines comes to mind. America is also being systematicly looted.

[xchrom]

54. moveon is a great organization

and no one has the right to claim historical memory and it's interpretation as their own.
as long as they don't try to alter the facts of what actually happened. i.e. holocaust deniers.

[chelaque liberal]

56. The Bush Regime is using Hitler's play book and improving on it.

The German people weren't monsters, they were manipulated by very effective propaganda into believing in their cause, just like the American people are today. Bush's (PNAC'S) goals may or may not be the same as Hitler's, but his tactics are.

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

[lostnfound]

57. Controversy is good. If it gets people talking about the ads..

it's more chances to talk about how bad Bush & co. are.

Would you want "Not as bad as Hitler" on YOUR Presidential resume?

[BigDaddyLove]

89. Interesting way to put it.

.

[chelaque liberal]

58. This is certainly Hitleresque

Quarantining dissent
How the Secret Service protects Bush from free speech
James Bovard
Sunday, January 4, 2004
©2004 San Francisco Chronicle
URL: sfgate.com/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/01/04/INGPQ40MB81.DTL

When President Bush travels around the United States, the Secret Service visits the location ahead of time and orders local police to set up "free speech zones" or "protest zones," where people opposed to Bush policies (and sometimes sign-carrying supporters) are quarantined. These zones routinely succeed in keeping protesters out of presidential sight and outside the view of media covering the event.
When Bush went to the Pittsburgh area on Labor Day 2002, 65-year-old retired steel worker Bill Neel was there to greet him with a sign proclaiming, "The Bush family must surely love the poor, they made so many of us."
The local police, at the Secret Service's behest, set up a "designated free-speech zone" on a baseball field surrounded by a chain-link fence a third of a mile from the location of Bush's speech.
The police cleared the path of the motorcade of all critical signs, but folks with pro-Bush signs were permitted to line the president's path. Neel refused to go to the designated area and was arrested for disorderly conduct; the police also confiscated his sign.

[Muddleoftheroad]

60. No it isn't

Not everything bad in the world is Hitleresque. To be Hitleresque, you have to try to wipe out entire populations of "undesireables" in a scheme of mass murder so horrible that few have ever managed its equal. Mao, Stalin and maybe Pol Pot can compare. * can not.

[chelaque liberal]

62. It is Hitleresque in the method of control

Hitler did many despicable things, but the reason he was able to get the German people to go along with it was because of the image control/propaganda he used-like hiding any perception of dissent.

[Muddleoftheroad]

64. By that definition

Virtually everything nations do is Hitleresque. The damn Nazis were good at what they did, they were just despicable. So if a nation has a competent military, it is Hitleresque. If they believe in air power, they are Hitleresque. If they build nice roads, they are Hitleresque. If they have a national identity, they are Hitleresque.

It is a silly use of a powerful comparison.

And, by so doing, it dumbs down the true meaning of the term. To genuinely be worthy of a comparison to Hitler, you need to kill millions. After your first couple million, you are starting to be worthy of that appalling comparison.

[0007]

164. ...junior is damn good at being an imitation of the early Hitler,

To genuinely say so is our right. Why stick the head in the sand?

[diamond14]

85. entire populations of 'undesirables', like Palestinians?

.

[David__77]

110. Mao and Stalin were not "Hitleresque"

There is no comparison between these people. Stalin was brutal, but he an important US ally in the fight against fascism. We should not forget that. We've had far worse "allies" in the post-war era. Hitler had a much more powerful war machine at his disposal, and liquidated peoples on the basis of race--this was no political terror, it was actual genocide. The Soviets suffered far, far more from the Germans than they did from their own government.

[0rganism]

114. Stalin probably killed more Soviets than the Nazis

I've heard Stalin's local death count put as high as 20 million, although that's likely a high-end estimate. However, he had a lot longer to do it than Hitler. Stalin operated gulags and political hit squads that really can't be defended, except insofar as he wasn't particularly racist in his selection of victims, AFAIK.

[Muddleoftheroad]

122. Both killed many millions

OK, who were far worse allies in the post-war era. I'd love to hear this.

[TankLV]

147. Again, you compare bunkerboy after only 2 1/2 years with Hitler after 8 or

10 years.

Even Hitler wasn't the the "hitler" we new in 1945 at this early stage.

Again, exactly which of the comparisons, facts stated in the ads are lies or wrong?

We are all still waiting.

[BigDaddyLove]

90. Hitleresque would have been..............

if these protesters were killed.

[MrPrax]

61. Anyone got a link for the SW

press release denouncing the National Alliance billboard in Florida?

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/breaking_news/7635205.htm

Would that press release be right next to the one denouncing Grover Norquist for comparing 'inheritance taxes' to the Holocaust?

Generally thinking that Moveon (leftists in general) would be one of the first to the barricades to protect Jews and any other minorities from fascist government and tend to decry 'genocide'...

Too bad these SW and other organizations have lately decided to 'blow their wad' defending a thororughly corrupt administration like Bush--hope the 'bad faith' they are creating is worth it to them.

Sounds familiar to a certain Rabbi denouncing the anti-war movement...(to decry anti-semticism of course)

[anarchy1999]

65. Is America Becoming Fascist? Long Essay

Is America Becoming Fascist?
The similarities between American fascism and particularly the National Socialist precedent, both historical and theoretical, are remarkable. Fascism is home, it is here to stay, and it better be countered with all the intellectual resources at our disposal.

snip
The current American aesthetic appreciation of technology ("smart" bombs) is also of a piece with Hitler's passion. Fascism is not a deviance from popular cultural trends, but only the taming of activism within revived nationalist myths. Mosse holds that fascism didn't diverge from mainstream European culture; it absorbed most of what held great mass appeal. It never decried workers' tastelessness; it accepted these realities. The same principles apply to American fascism.

Umberto Eco, in his essay "Ur-Fascism," identifies fourteen characteristics of "eternal fascism": not all of them have to be present at the same time for a system to be considered fascist, and some of them may even be contradictory: "There was only one Nazism, and we cannot describe the ultra-Catholic Falangism of Franco as Nazism, given that Nazism is fundamentally pagan, polytheistic, and anti-Christian, otherwise it is not Nazism." Eco is intelligent enough to suggest a family of resemblance, overlap, and kinship, and the analyst's task is to note which particular characteristics apply to a system, and understand the reasons for the absence of others, rather than dismiss the fascist categorization if a single feature from a previous fascist variant doesn't apply: "Remove the imperialist dimension from Fascism, and you get Franco or Salazar; remove the colonialist dimension, and you get Balkan Fascism. Add to Italian Fascism a dash of radical anti-Capitalism (which never appealed to Mussolini), and you get Ezra Pound. Add the cult of Celtic mythology and the mysticism of the Grail (completely extraneous to official Fascism), and you get one of the most respected gurus of Fascism, Julius Evola."
It is noteworthy about Eco's matrix that all fourteen of his characteristics of ur-fascism apply to America to some degree: 1. "the cult of tradition" (which may be "syncretic" and able to "tolerate contradictions"); 2. "the rejection of modernism" and "irrationalism"; 3. "the cult of action for action's sake"; 4. "dissent is betrayal"; 5. "fear of difference," or racism; 6. "the appeal to the frustrated middle classes" ; 7. "obsession with conspiracies," along with xenophobia and nationalism; 8. "the enemy is at once too strong and too weak" ; 9. 'Pacifism is. . .collusion with the enemy," "life is a permanent war," and only a "final solution" can herald an age of peace; 10. "scorn for the weak" imposed by a mass elite; 11. "the cult of death" ; 12. transferring of the "will to power onto sexual questions," or "machismo"; 13. "individuals have no rights," and fascism "has to oppose 'rotten' parliamentary governments"; and 14. "Ur-Fascism uses newspeak."

No doubt, fascism is a descriptor too carelessly thrown around; but Nixon and Reagan, no matter how reprehensible their politics, were not quite fascist. Bush is the most dangerous man in contemporary history: Hitler didn't have access to weapons that could blow up the world, and no American or other leader since World War II with access to such weapons has been as out of control. Perhaps a non-controversial statement may be that the fascist tendency always exists, at the very least latent and dormant. But when more and more of the latency becomes actualized, there comes a point when the nature of the problem has to be redefined. We may already have crossed that point. As Eco notes, "Ur-Fascism can still return in the most innocent of guises. Our duty is to unmask it and to point the finger at each of its new forms ­ every day, in every part of the world." And as Eco reminds us, Roosevelt issued a similar warning.

for the whole essay go to:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3127.htm

[Cassandra]

76. Some possible answers

"Has the organization been paid off by the repugs? Remember Arnold."
Probably not. I think it's a matter of not wanting to dilute the Holocaust by making a comparison with someone who hasn't actually set up extermination camps (yet). I would prefer that Moveon reference the rise of Fascism without using the particular hot button of Hitler. We may need to save something for later.
"Are we associating too much with the wrong people?"
Which "wrong people" were you thinking of?
"Are we delusional?"
No, but throwing out comparisons to Hitler makes us look hysterical, even if they are closer to the truth than not.
"Or is this org. and their protests meaningless?"
I don't think it's meaningless; they have a point.

[young_at_heart]

79. How many of our presidents have been compared to Hitler?

It's horrible that such a thought would even enter one person's mind, let alone a whole group. The fact that it has should be a red flag.

[diamond14]

78. sadly, this objection to Move-On, and the failure of Sharon

to remove the WALL, as requested by bush*, and the Iraq occupation...are just raising issues in many American's minds like....

-why are WE sacrificing OUR soldiers to protect Israel?....
-why are WE paying $ 14 BILLION per year to Isreal for the past 50 years, when Sharon won't even take down the WALL when OUR pResident asks him?...
-isn't the real reason for the Iraq war, just to protect Isreal?
-is Israel an asset for America?

sadly, it's destroying all the good will that Americans had toward Israel for many years...and the Simon Wiesenthal Jewish Center is helping destroy American goodwill....

according to the bush* PNAC plan, shrub will cut off arms and money to Israel just as soon as he gains full control of his new empire base in the ME....Iraq...bush* just won't need Israel anymore....

[Malva Zebrina]

99. I have asked myself those same questions

what is the real reason behind this SWC slur of Move On--an organisation that has done much good in bringing to the debate the opposite side of the question.

We are to support Israel's fear of being overtaken , once more, by the stronger tribes. That Sharon and the Lidud party has said that it it necessary to return Israel to Biblical boundaries is a clue==and we here in the US, this multi-cultural, quite progressive nation full of wealth, are supposed to support Israel because the "other guy" is a threat to the religion of Israel . I am sorry---I see it simply as power plays gone out of control. Religion and the god who gave this tribe of Israel a "land" imo, is laughable, but then I am an atheist, so that is quite a logical premise for me to take.

That our young people need to be encouraged to die to protect Israel's biblical boundaries, given to them, as they claim, by a sky god, is total insanity, imo.

Israel is like any other country there in the ME. If it cannot get along and if it is under attack , well it should do something other than kill womena and children, dash them against the rocks and expect to have support because after all, the Jews were holocausted by a Hitler---and that entitles this tribe to, therefore kill others.

Beats me--I wonder sometimes if people like the SW people are Americans or Israeli

Do they not care that American youth is dying and being maimed for the state of Israel (in thier interpretation) Is it just perfectly fine that our youth, is being used by a fascist Bush, and being killed mercilessly for the Israeli cause.

This makes not one bit of sense to me at all. Since when does this country take up the cause of a biblical mandate from an imaginary god, and willingly send it's young to die in order that a religion gets to claim land that was "given" to it by a god thousands of years agol

Excuse me--I just do not understand because I fail to see there is anything special about it. I fail to see the difference in the holocaust of Hitler and that of the Spainards who totally annhiliated a entire civilisation by the millions, on order to get it's "gold"

That civilisation has never demanded our young be killed in order to restore it's holocausted people==maybe it is because it's god never deeded them the land?

I used to have some respect for the SWC--I no longer do--they are capitalizing on their grief and their victimization in order that others may be killed, not the same as they. It is wrong

[cantwealljustgetalong]

152. what a nice collection of...

holes, hyperboles, and canards...

[slackmaster]

83. Should we declare a Godwin's Law Foul against moveon.org?

:shrug:

[patcox2]

87. A variation on the old "if you criticize Israel, you are anti-semitic."

You see, criticizing Bush by comparing him to Hitler is now a form of anti-semitism. Here is why: Bush's entire middle east foreign policy is the greatest thing for Israel since ever; the neocons are promoting a course of action under which we attack and eliminate every single enemy of and/or threat to Irael, starting with Iraq and then on to Iran and Syria, after which all other Arab nations will be so cowed that no-one will ever again threaten Israel. When you consider that the neocons who promote this policy are essentially agents of the likud party and/or the Mossad, its not so surprising, I guess. So, if US foreign policy todays is in fact Iraeli foreign policy, then criticism of the president based on his foreign policy is actually criticism of Israel, and of course criticism of Israel is anti-semitism. So, its only natural that a comparison of Bush to Hitler would produce this response from the Wiesenthal center.

[BigDaddyLove]

92. Aside from Iran having a nuclear weapon..................

which Arab nation is an actual threat to Israel? Seems to me that Israel has done pretty well for herself when at war with Arabs in the past.

Now, thanks to America's millitary (financial) support, I doubt that any (or all put together) Arab nations pose a dire threat to Israel at all.....they certainly don't need us to directly take care of their enemies for them.

[dudeness]

93. not sure about Iran having any nukes BDL..

as far as we mortals know..Israel is the only ME country to possess them..in the order of 200 I believe..

[BigDaddyLove]

103. I meant to say that if in the event Iran.................

obtains the nuke that some expect them to. Sorry if I was unclear.

[Cuban Peril]

88. As a society we've dug our graves today.

R.I.P.

[BigDaddyLove]

91. How so?

:shrug:

[Cuban Peril]

98. By abandoning deductive reasoning.

By demeaning Jewish history to advance a political ideology.
By likening the sitting Potus with Hitler.
By empowering the opposition by wallowing in the gutter instead of standing tall.
By forcing fringe voters further and further away.
By straying from the pertinent to the arcane:

The Bush family has Nazi connections and is somehow using them to fulfill a NWO.

An incredibly wealthy GWB became president to make his incredibly wealthy friends even richer.

The president invaded Iraq to steal its' oil.

Neal Bush killed his nanny.

The president had advance warning of 9/11 and did nothing.

And on, and on, and on.

[BigDaddyLove]

104. I don't personally believe in any of your listed reasons.........

but I understand what you are saying and to some extent agree.

I would however like more clarification (if you have a moment), with regard to your first point about Jewish history being demeaned by referencing Hitler in an attempt to explain the actions of Bush.

[Cuban Peril]

115. Big Daddy,

With all due respect, NOTHING is like the evil put upon modern man by Hitler. By implying a moral relativism between an obvious genocidal tyrant like Hitler, with the sitting Potus (whom 63% of Americans approve of) devalues the memories and images of deathcamps,forced labor, starvation, torture, gassings, hangings, mass executions, genetic experiments, human skin lampshades and pelvic bone ashtrays.

[patcox2]

171. What about "the banality of evil"?

I think you are wrong to elevate Hitler to some superhuman level of evil, unique in recent history. He was not at all unique, and painting him as such is dangerous and misses the whole point, the lesson of Nazism, which is that it can happen again, anytime, anywhere. Hitler was dramatically evil, with his camps and ovens and cattle cars, and he committed his crimes in suppsoedly civilized europe, and the victims were people who looked like us, or may even have been our relatives, not exotic foreigners like Cambodians or Rwandans, but really, the amount of human suffering is the same whether millions die from starvation in Ireland or Armenia or from bullets or from the many means employed by Stalin.

I forget the author, but I know that phrase, "the banality of evil," was one of the most famous and perceptive things ever said about the evil of the nazis. Banal, as in ordinary, commonplace.

The fact is that people with the evil heart of a Hitler are around us in our everyday lives. The garden variety racist who looks at other people as objects, subhumans, these people are all capable of the same evil as Hitler. The only difference is they don't have the power to make their hate policy.

If you forget that, if you buy into some kind of theory of Hitlerian exceptionalism, then you tread dangerous ground.

You keep looking for some kind of rare monster, when the real evil is all around you with a human face. Hitler was kind to children, loved his dogs.

Your point of view suggests that we can all relax, evil on the scale of a Hitler can only happen when you get a rare monster of an individual. Not true, there are millions of potential Hitlers out there, sticking firecrackers up frogs asses, torturing animals, laughing at the pleas of those about to be executed. Better just hope one of them never attains the kind of power it takes to make their Hitlerian dreams reality.

[Karenina]

173. GOOOOO Patcox2!!!!

:toast:

[0rganism]

109. By abandoning medicare to the HMOs

By settling for a war-time tax cut which primarily rewards those with plenty
By allowing domination of the "free press" by a handful of conglomerates
By likening the sitting potus with Jesus
By empowering fascist domination through policies of appeasement
By letting the right wing set the terms for the debate
By supporting wars that do nothing but enrich and entrench the oligarchy
By caving in to characterizations of the pertinant as arcane

THAT is where the Democratic party has abjectly failed the people of the United States, and allowed our society to decay.

[Cuban Peril]

118. Good points, but...

In journalistic parlance, the 'arcane' has 'no teeth'. How long do we cling to that which we desire to be true in spite of truth itself? "Blood for oil", Enron & Halliburtion, trickle-down economics, illegal wars, etc. are all moot points. As easily as they can be dismissed, they can be defended with the same vigor. The point is to give the people of this country what they want by mandate. Trying to convince anybody that the Potus and his 63% approval rating, is Hitler, is pissing in the wind. (excuse the vulgar ref.)

[0rganism]

120. Hitler had a high approval rating, too

German Social Democratic opposition was too careful in its criticism of Der Feuhrer. As a result, they created the very situation they were too afraid to publicly denounce, and were assimilated or sent to Dachau as Hitler solidified the power of the Nazi party.

Anytime an opposition party declares its opponent too popular to critique, they have effectively thrown in the towel. And the Democratic party cannot afford to do this for the 3rd election in a row.

The candidates that attack the spotus regularly (Dean, Clark, Kucinich (hey, DK's doubled his primary support recently)) are gaining in the polls. Those that primarily engage in backstabbing and infighting (Kerry, Lieberman, Gephardt) have slowly-but-surely diminished their chances. By all appearances, the candidate who opposes bush in the 2004 general election will have the support of a motivated base IF s/he continues to mount a rhetorical offensive.

That said, it is not necessary to "convince anybody that...(bush)...is Hitler..." There was only one Adolf Hitler, and bush is not that man. bush is bush, but many of the actions of the bush regime are comparable to those of the early stages of nazification which occurred in the early '30s, in the wake of the Reichstag fire.

Pointing out the similarities, showing the ways in which the two are comparable, is not a mistake. In fact, the very act of denial ("Bush is not Hitler!") gives airtime to the allegation that they might, indeed, have something nontrivial in common. Anytime the RNC is playing defense is a time they cannot engage in manufacturing or spreading dirt (other than the ineffective "it trivializes the Holocaust" retort).

If the Democrats had a sympathetic media, as the republican party does, you can bet there'd be a lot more such allegations. Look at how the media was used to spread outright LIES about Al Gore in 2000, that remain unacknowledged to this day. The only reason a comparison between bush and hitler seems futile now is the complete imbalance in national media orientation.

[Cuban Peril]

127. Since when does denying a hideous allegation prove a common thread?

You are obviously quite smart and articulate, but this argument is tainted with self-serving intellectual laziness.

Your argument is predicated solely on the assumption that a tempered, issue-driven attack on the Potus is not only inadequate, but could eventually lead to a 4th. Reich type power grab by the incumbents. This is the same point of the Moveon ads and it is shear nonsense. Pointing out the similarities between Bush and Hitler is only valid, from a purely logical perspective, IF BUSH COULD BECOME ANOTHER HITLER. Since that is obviously impossible, why compare them?

This ad campaign is paving the way for the next great exodus. Jews in this country have traditionally block-voted Democrat, but no more. They don't like flippant references to Hitler, and that is the only point these ads seem to make.

Finally, enough with the myth of media 'imbalance'. Don't you find it embarrassing to be on the winning side and to still cry 'foul'. With the exception of Fox, The Wall Street Journal and the National Review, what the hell are you angry about?

[bemildred]

128. You obviously don't know shit about logic.

Pointing out the similarities between Bush and
Hitler is only valid, from a purely logical perspective,
if the similarities are valid.

[Cuban Peril]

130. Uh, Okay.

Did you even read what you wrote?

[bemildred]

134. You first. Did you?

[0rganism]

135. Did you even read what she wrote?

You have some serious problems with your predicate logic skills. I strongly recommend boning up on them a bit before critiquing on that basis.

Start with something like this: define a logical function "valid" as V{X} (for complex arguments), where any argument X can be described as "valid" if all its constituent parts (x) are valid by V{x}, and only if its constituent parts accurately represent X:

V{X} | all X, true for X if for all (x(1)...x(n)) in X, x is true or V{x} is true, and only if (x(1)...x(n)) completely represent the parameters of X.

That's what you're bitching about.

[bemildred]

136. She is a he, with a fondness for the prepositional calculus.

My guess is the post was not understood.
:hi:

[Cuban Peril]

137. Remove "from a purely logical perspective" from your screed,

and it reads: "Pointing out the similarities between Bush and Hitler is only valid if the similarities are valid". And you actually criticize my reasoning skills?

[bemildred]

138. Yes. It's perfectly clear and correct.

If you actually knew logic, you would know that.

[Cuban Peril]

139. Hmm, I see.

Maybe it was your English that threw me.

[bemildred]

140. The English is fine, it's the logic you don't get. nt

[0rganism]

131. It proves nothing, but associatively establishes the link

Since you deride me for laziness, I'll take the liberty to discuss your argument line by line. Perhaps you'll find this more indicative of whatever "work ethic" you find most appealing.

> Your argument is predicated solely on the assumption that a
> tempered, issue-driven attack on the Potus is not only inadequate

It does appear inadequate. Because tempered, issue-driven attacks on the potus are regularly ignored by both the media and the administration, it has become necessary to engage in the same kind of speculative attacks which the bush-cheney campaign used in 2004 to denigrate Al Gore. The advantage moveon.org has in this regard is that the ad they hosted as part of the "submit your own campaign ad" contest contains a strong thread of truth. It is not based in out-of-context or non-sequiter attack, nor is it ad hom in any way. Perhaps you should examine the material yourself?

> but could eventually lead to a 4th. Reich type power grab by the incumbents

Now you're just missing the point. The power grab already happened, back in 2000. It was reinforced in 2002. The administration currently has the power to declare and rubber-stamp pretty much whatever legislation it wishes.

> This is the same point of the Moveon ads and it is shear nonsense

So you missed the point, then? Fascism is ALREADY HAPPENING here, it's in full swing. Those ads were a sincere warning. The response from the right wing stand as proof of their accuracy.

> Pointing out the similarities between Bush and Hitler is only
> valid, from a purely logical perspective, IF BUSH COULD BECOME
> ANOTHER HITLER.

I don't know who taught you "logic", but they apparently use a different standard of "valid" than any that I've ever seen. Your statement itself consitutes a theorem which begs for some sort of logical support other than capital letters.

If one can take the 14 common characteristics of fascist regimes and apply them point by sordid point to what bush has done to this country, then one has a conditionally valid argument which requires pointwise refutation. Your argument, that a comparison is valid IF AND ONLY IF bush could become another hitler, is logically empty as far as I can tell. It's of the form,

A) The notion of a horizon is valid if and only if the earth is not flat.
B) The earth is obviously flat.
C) Therefore, any discussion of possible horizons is invalid.

The thesis requires further justification. The evidence provided is not "obvious", it is a topic open to debate. The conclusion is as hollow as its support. I will briefly dispute your premises:

A) A comparison between specific aspects of the bush regime and the nazi regime could reveal similar motivations or underlying themes, whether or not bush "becomes Hitler" in some other important ways. Similarly, one can compare the writings of Thoreau to those of Emerson, even if Thoreau will never become Emerson or vice versa. Comparisons between the symptoms of human BSE and Alzheimers can be useful, despite the fact that the two are intrinsically different.

B) It has not been established that bush cannot "become another Hitler" in ways we might consider important (mass institutionalized disenfrachisement and murder, unprovoked invasions of sovereign nations, etcetera).

Your largely unsupported premises lead you to a weakened conclusion. I would contend the opposite: a comparison between the two can be both valid and useful, whether or not the one can "become" the other in what one considers the most important way.

> This ad campaign is paving the way for the next great exodus

Except the only "ad campaign" here is being run by the RNC, not by moveon.org. Look, they already suckered you into buying their agitprop. You can read moveon's take on the matter at http://moveonvoterfund.org/smear/release.html
A free and fair press would ensure that such a response was included along with the allegation. Watch for the bait-and-switch.

> Jews in this country have traditionally block-voted Democrat, but no more.

Whether or not this has anything to do with representations of nazis in political campaigns has yet to be established. More likely is the abject support of Israel's foreign policy objectives, especially with respect to Palestineans, has drawn many Likud-minded Jews away from anything that nominally embraces ideas of social justice.

> They don't like flippant references to Hitler, and that is the only point these ads seem to make

Have YOU watched the ads in question? Do you know ANY Jews who have changed their political orientation specifically because of this sort of reference to Hitler? Mel Brooks made constant flippant references to Hitler in his comedy, and remains one of the most successful Jewish comics of all time. Methinks it's you whose engaged in a bit of "intellectual laziness" here.

> enough with the myth of media 'imbalance'

Enough with the myth of the liberal media! "winning side"? Don't make me laugh. Go read Eric Alterman's What Liberal Media? before you spread that lie here. Or, if that's too much intellectual hard work for ya, just take the short version at http://www.bartcop.com/libmedia.htm
As has been said all too many times before, "My only problem with the liberal media is I can't seem to find it on my television."

[Cuban Peril]

133. Brilliant. I mean it.

[TankLV]

148. Good points, all.

"The Bush family has Nazi connections and is somehow using them to fulfill a NWO."

"An incredibly wealthy GWB became president to make his incredibly wealthy friends even richer."

"The president invaded Iraq to steal its' oil."

"Neal Bush killed his nanny."

"The president had advance warning of 9/11 and did nothing."



The only one of the above that is false is the one about Neil.

The rest are proven, accomplished facts.

[goforit]

95. When * is prosecuted for 911/Iraq/Afghanistan/all misc. murders.....

that have mysteriously been arranged by him, then we'll
give the MoveOn.org a global award.

Oh let us not forget the Patriot Act which is Hitler's signature
policy.....and...
The bashing of French, Germans, Iranians,Syria,Turkey, Iraqis, N.Koreans,Venezuelans, EU, United Nations, China, Russia, Canada, Mexico,Cuba,Catholics, Islamics, American Indians, Women, the Poor
and the environment.................

And anything else he views psychologically as a threat.

[Karenina]

97. Ya mean like "focus groups"

of 12 million protesters??? ;-)

[Guaranteed]

100. Look folks...this publicity works both ways.

As long as we don't apologize over the comparison, this will work in our favor, for the most part.

Don't roll over on this one. Bush is a fascist. While he hasn't started killing off his own people yet (that we know of), he's still got plenty of time. Nazi Germany didn't become what it was overnight, either.

[Karenina]

112. "While he hasn't started killing off his own people yet..."

My dear BullGooseLoony, PUHLEEESE, WOIK WIT ME HEAH!!! This is what I was ranting about in my reply to post #1...

YES HE IS, YES HE IS, YES HE IS!!!!!

In partnership with corporate cronies and their "kinder, gentler fascism" the policies being implemented DAILY are KILLING OFF AMERICANS DAILY!!! (And whoever else happens to get in the way).

The American health care fiasco is causing deaths DAILY. The elderly who cannot afford their medications are committing suicide or just DYING. One less "unproductive mouth to feed." Did you see the thread on this Forum about AIDs drugs QUINTUPLING in price? Let them die if they can't pay, they brought it on themselves anyway! Jobs being "outsourced" unemployment benefits cut... No nasty pictures, numbers going UNREPORTED. The enviromental degradation that's getting a free pass, is COSTING LIVES. No statistics neatly bound up in Ordners. The dismantling of the social safety net is destabilizing families and communities. No film at 11. And NO PICTURES OF CASKETS being returned from an ill-advised military adventure. NO PAPER TRAIL in the NWO!!!

It's still early, but what do you think about that HUGE CONSTRUCTION BOOM in the prison industry? Are you aware of the camps FEMA has dotted across the landscape? No, there hasn't been the event that sets all that into motion just yet, but HAVE YOU SEEN THE TRIAL RUNS? Think Portland, SanFrancisco and Miami (which had an $8 million budget to test out all that fancy new gear IIRC).

See this is a "kinder, gentler fascism." Put those frogs in the pot and heat it up REAL SLOW...

Oh dear, am I ranting again?

[diamond14]

121. People with disabilities were KILLED first under hitler...which is

exactly what bush* is doing...and arnold too...bush* has cut out healthcare for people with disabilities...those with diabetes can no longer afford insulin, over 200,000 DIED in 2003, many because bush* cut off insulin...those with aids, their medication costs have risen 20% just this year....gov. arnold very publically cut off home health care for people with disabilities in California...many will DIE...Americans are silent....

just like in Germany though...the healthy people in America don't see any problem with KILLING those with disabilities...healthy people can't imagine that there is anything wrong with cutting people off from insulin....there are thousands dying all over America...and nobody speaking up....in Germany, people knew that the 'people with disabilities' were being KILLED and, just like today in America, they said nothing....later, hitler was able to KILL those who were silent...

----------------------------------------------------

-snips-

In 1935, the Nuremberg Laws provided for the forced sterilization of the unfit. Not only did Hitler have in mind such "inferior races" as Jews and Gypsies, he also included unfit Aryans—the mentally defective, severely handicapped, the incurably insane and the incurably sick.

To implement the euthanasia program, special carbon-monoxide chambers were constructed. According to Milton Meltzer:

Between December 1939 and August 1941, about 50,000 to 60,000 Germans—children and adults—were killed by lethal injections or in gassing installations designed to look like shower stalls. It was a foretast of Auschwitz. The victims were taken from the medical institution and put to death.... (Never to Forget, New York:HarperCollins, 1976:131.)

The euthanasia program proved to be a valuable precursor to the atrocities which were to come in connection with the "Final Solution."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/t4.html

[Guaranteed]

126. Well, you're right about all of that, of course. nt

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TracyWSC2]

108. Concerned Jewish Democrat

Pardon me but... you people are insane!! How can anyone on this board actually defend the horrible act's of Hitler just because the SWC didn't condone the comparison of Bush to Hitler. If defending Hitler, because you hate Bush, is the kind of campagin backers the democratic contenders in 2004 are getting then it's no wonder the democratic party is going down the tubes!

And please don't bother to reply just to call me names. I frankly could care less.

[0rganism]

111. Where in this thread has hitler been defended?

I certainly haven't seen it. Please point out where in this thread hitler has been defended. Compared to shrub, certainly, but if you view that as a defense, you may be posting on the wrong board.

Calling "us people" "insane" from the get-go doesn't further your position, either. Especially when you end with a pathetic whine about ad-hominem.

[Terwilliger]

132. I'd be interested in who defended Hitler...BESIDES Republicans

I mean, Goerge Bush's grandfather gave Hitler money and supplies DURING World War II.

[Cassandra]

153. No one is defending Hitler

We're just pointing out that Bush hasn't gotten to that level yet. Are you making this accusation..."If defending Hitler, because you hate Bush, is the kind of campagin backers the democratic contenders in 2004 are getting then it's no wonder the democratic party is going down the tubes!" ... just so that you can quote yourself later? Are you sure you're a Jewish Democrat because I am and I think your intellectual powers are lacking. Your spelling isn't too fabulous either.

edit: corrected my spelling, but left yours as is. :-)

[Geeky_boy]

113. Bush as Hitler?

To all well meaning folks who think comparing Bush to Hitler is a great idea: grow up.

Whatever fascist, genocidal, imperialistic and pathological tendencies we might want to read into Bush motives, the PNAC, the Bush Doctrine, etc., the point is we need to ELECT a new president with a new philosophy.

If you think speaking of the current administration in such wild-eyed terms is going to help the liberal cause, then you probably think the best way to save America is if an Allied force invades and liberates us from such a despotic tyrant. Ain't gonna happen.

[Geeky_boy]

119. Every comparison of Bush to Hitler...

...is probably just another few thousand votes for Bush. Creative photoshoppers and morphers: try to keep your juvenile antics out of the media, please. Let's focus on whatever slim chances we may have of replacing Bush with a nominal liberal.

[Emillereid]

117. Anyone have a link to the mOveon ad --

I don't watch much TV and haven't seen it.

BTW, I imagine that the ad uses Hitler as the most recognizable symbol of fascism, rather than suggesting Bush/Hitler are identical -- there's no doubt that we are descending into our uniquely American imperial form of fascism/corportism. We don't need to scapegoat a particular group the same way Hitler did the Jews; although of course our bogeyman 'terrorist' usually assumes a mid-eastern face. We certainly won't repeat wholesale concentration/labor camps, we don't have to -- we use wage-slaves instead -- much more efficient. But both Bush and Hitler aim for the same basic end -- world domination and control. Bush is the improved model -- a bit more the Roman emperor than Nazi dictator. But he should read his history -- both Rome and the Third Reich fell.

[Maeve]

158. Never on tv--just on a website

As part of a contest to describe Dubya's misadministration in 30 seconds or less. Here's the MoveOn press release:
http://moveonvoterfund.org/smear/release.html

excerpt:
More than 1,500 submissions from ordinary Americans came in and were posted on a web site, bushin30seconds.org, for the public to review.

None of these was our ad, nor did their appearance constitute endorsement or sponsorship by MoveOn.org Voter Fund. They will not appear on TV. We do not support the sentiment expressed in the two Hitler submissions. They were voted down by our members and the public, who reviewed the ads and submitted nearly 3 million critiques in the process of choosing the 15 finalist entries.

We agree that the two ads in question were in poor taste and deeply regret that they slipped through our screening process. In the future, if we publish or broadcast raw material, we will create a more effective filtering system.

Contrast this with the behavior of the RNC and its allies when supporters of President Bush used TV ads morphing the face of Sen. Max Cleland (D-GA) into that of Osama Bin Laden during the 2002 Senate race.

[diamond14]

123. shocking that Jews try to SILENCE those, who attempt to stop

bush* and thereby, attempt to prevent another Holocaust.... it is Jews who wish to SILENCE those who speak out against today's hitler...amazing...

had people spoken to save those with disabilities, hitler might not have gone on to the Final Solution...now, as we brave PATRIOTIC AMERICANS try to stop bush*, it amazes me that Jewish people are now trying to silence anyone who speaks out against today's hitler in his rise to power....



read here about hitler's rise to power and the events BEFORE the 'Final Solution'....and that is exactly what bush* does today...
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/holo.html


or watch this flash video to know why Americans are very concerned and SPEAKING OUT....why don't you join us? or are you really wanting another Holocaust by silencing us?
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

[Karenina]

125. There's a cultural paradigm

that needs to be pointed out here. I have to think about it awhile before I go off on another rant. The reason many Jews (and Germans for that matter) go absolutely "off" upon seeing ANY comparison has its roots in a "truth." Hitler "INDUSTRIALIZED" the slaughter of human beings. Many will point to various instances of genocide in history. What makes the Holocaust different is the "corporate industrial" element which is in essence not so unlike factory farming. It is the degradation of human beings into a commodity. Rwanda was not like that nor was the genocide of the Native Americans, Mayans, Armenians, African slaves, NONE OF THOSE VICTIMS BODIES were used to make commercial "products." THEREIN lies the emotional hot-button.

THAT said, those of us who are SCREAMING at the top of our lungs now are the ones who recognize the stench and see it coming. Look at the *BFEE funeral home scandal for a tiny whiff. We are countering a force that has NO RESPECT for human life or Mother Earth upon whom we all depend for our survival. NONE.

And as for this INCREDIBLY UNHOLY ALLIANCE... The Christian Reconstructionists (and YES *dimson IS a member of that "elite" clique) are RABID, foaming-at-the-mouth anti-Semites, although quite demure in polite company... :puke: :puke: :puke:

[symbolman]

124. I think everyone is missing the main point

and that is that GOD TALKED to both these guys and told them to attack and kill people..

BUSH actually said those lines while visiting the Middle East..

THAT is the real story here, the dodge is being made by the right wingers - BUSH Is basically demented and they don't need a religious fanatic attack..

[Karenina]

150. HELLO!!!

That the spot has to be explained is the prime indicator of its ineffectiveness. But the message is SPOT ON! AND CONGRATULATIONS SYMBOLMAN!!! :loveya:

[sleipnir]

129. Can't see the forest through the trees...

I've never really liked this organization, always seemed highly self-serving and now they've proved my point once again.

[stickdog]

141. For the 1000th time, there's just no comparison whatsover between Hitler &

Busholini.

[Terwilliger]

142. There was no comparison of Saddam and Hitler either, but Repukes...

tried it anyway.

[Lori Price CLG]

143. How many will die due to Bush using Depleted Uranium?

We do not have the number yet, but Bush's illegal use of Depleted Uranium in Afghanistan and Iraq may end up resulting in the death of thousands... not to mention the environmental catastrophe. Plus, the Bush reign of terror is not over yet (unfortunately).

Also, Hitler and Bush share similar goals of world domination through terrorism, although Bush has the IQ of a moron. The Idiot Usurper must rely on Rove to invent and implement his Fascist fantasies.

The Bush-Hitler comparisons are accurate.

Lori Price

[Muddleoftheroad]

151. You have no idea

Lori

You yourself blame * for the possible deaths of thousands and then claim the comparison is accurate. Sorry, but read a few history books on Adolph and you will see that your statement makes it obvious that the comparison is false.

[Lori Price CLG]

154. I see similar patterns and goals with Bush and Hitler.

Bush's Reichstag Fire was 9-11, etc.. For example, the mainstream media had an article noting people's suspicions of the 'forest fires' that just *happened* to erupt when the Idiot Usurper was visiting Oregon so that he could force his 'Healthy (Bullsh*t) Forests' initiative on us. Even Hitler didn't think of that one; Rove is clearly the master.

Obviously, Bush has not killed or had killed as many people as Hitler. But, as I have noted, the Bush reign of terror is not over yet (unfortunately). Bush will have himself re-installed as dictator in November, with the help of Diebold, and his next act of terror on the United States - to garner support for Patriot II - may be huge.

Lori Price

[Muddleoftheroad]

155. Again, the Nazis did a lot of nasty crap and were good at it

We could make the same comparison to every scumbag in history, it wouldn't be accurate.

Hitler is most known for not wanting to take over the world, but for nearly accomplishing it and mass murdering millions in the process.

[rman]

156. don't forget "denouncing critics as being unpatriotic"

exactly as Goering explained at the Neurenburg trials:

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of
the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to
drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship,
or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the
people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is
easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country
to greater danger."

[Skidmore]

159. When are we going to start treating WWII for what it was?

It was not some mystical experience but it is another ugly chapter among many such ugly chapers in the history of mankind. Have we learned from it? Doesn't appear to have contributed to much of a learning curve. We treat it as a hallowed event though, and do not address the shame of it honestly. Instead we try to cover the pain and do not own our own shame. That our nation could incinerate hundreds of thousands of people at one time is glossed over. How were we different than Hitler, Hirohito, or Mussolini? Only in that we were the victors and could rewrite history to cover diminish the shame for ourselves.

[Muddleoftheroad]

160. Give me a break

We treat World War II exactly as we should, as a major victory over some of the worst forces our world has even seen.

Imagine for a moment what your life (if you'd have one) would be like if we had lost. There would be no DU or even Nazi Underground. Posting here in disagreement with the party would be a death sentence. So would being Jewish, gay, Gypsy and probably black as well. (Hitler hated us too.)

How are we different than Hitler, Hirohito, or Mussolini? If you can't see it, then you are a lost cause.

[Skidmore]

161. Can we not envision another way to have ended that war

than through the atom bomb? I think it is a fair question.

[0007]

165. Because he has a right to an opinion, he is a lost cause?

Didn't our savior tell us that everyone is redeemable?

[Logansquare]

162. Surprise, surprise-Mrs. Rabbi Hier gave $1000 to Bush

From Opensecrets.org:

HIER, MARLENE MRS
LOS ANGELES,CA 90035
SIMON WIESENTHAL CENTER/DIRECTOR OF
8/15/2003
$1,000
Bush, George W

not that the Hiers would be biased or anything...

[Cronus Protagonist]

177. GREAT CATCH!

Bias bias bias.

"Lick Bush" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[Fish-Slapping_Dance]

163. C'mon, people

This stuff doesn't help us. There are millions of independent voters out there who could be persuaded to come over to our side, but who are going to be seriously annoyed and put off by such inane comparisons. Do we want to win in November or not?

I hate Bush as much as the next DUer, but c'mon now. Let us not descend into childishness. :tinfoilhat:

BTW, this is my first-ever post at DU. Please don't kill me. ;-)

[nolabels]

168. The gap between the truth and what a most people know is quite wide

If enough people with credibility jump in, it's curtains for them folks, they know it and are running out ways to attack people that come out against them. Corporate Media and the wingers must be divided, that's how it will work. Corporate Media will always pull back when they see they see they might be losing some of the franchise. They can't sell shit if they don't have any creditability. Take heart, it won't matter that some don't see the light. It will come one way or another anyway.

I never like to be blatant, but if some want to know what others think or have found, it's no a crime to show them.

[Karenina]

174. What's childish is

pulling the covers over your head when the flames are licking your bedroom door.

[roguevalley]

167. Weisenthal excused Kurt Waldheim.

There is a great book written about hunting through the records to confirm Waldheim was an SS man and it was written by the man who is the lead lawyer in hunting Nazis for the USA. I can't remember what it is called but most libraries probably have it. Waldheim's face is on the cover and it is white background.

The man writing the book respects Weisenthal for all he had done
in the past but said that the nazi hunting community is torn about his proclivity to bullshit and to write off people that later turn out to be criminals. He says that Weisenthal can't admit that he was wrong about Waldheim and it is a mark against his reputation and all the good he did.

I like Weisenthal but he can be a dick. Check out his support of
Arnold as well.

[fizzana]

178. And this editorial from the NY Post has been ignored by

all those criticizing MoveOn because........

But Howard Dean and his Deanie-weenies do all they can to restrict the free speech of others. I can predict with certainty that Dean's Internet Gestapo will pounce on this column, twisting the facts and vilifying the writer, just as they do when anyone challenges Howard the Coward.

Free speech, you see, is only for the left.

Dean wants to muzzle his Democratic competitors, too. He believes the Democratic National Committee should shut them up. His followers try to intimidate other presidential aspirants by surrounding the cars delivering them to their rallies and chanting to drown out their speech. Of course, Dean denies any foreknowledge or blame.

These are the techniques employed by Hitler's Brownshirts. Had Goebbels enjoyed access to the internet, he would have used the same swarm tactics as Dean's Flannelshirts.

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/4965.htm

How silly of me. The correct answer is because it's okay if you're a Republican.