Protests widen over sky marshals

[0007]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3371247.stm

More countries have joined the protests against American proposals to place armed guards on US-bound flights.

Portugal is the latest nation to voice concern, as its civil aviation authority said that putting loaded guns aboard an aircraft could endanger it.

In Britain, the pilots' union said that if the security risk to a flight is great enough to warrant an armed guard, the plane should not fly at all.

Denmark and Sweden have also rejected demands for armed guards on aircraft.

More......

[BOHICA06]

1. Hmmmmmm.......

Therefore according to the Portugal Aviation Authority - the only armed people it wants on its aircraft are Highjackers. Okay, that's a bit simplistic, but there are only so many bullet dodging Jackie Chans out there for unarmed Marshalls.

Calling Chow Young Fat - Bullet Proof Monk needed!

[underpants]

3. I think it is more of a clash of cultures

some political grandstanding sure but more of the stark contrast of European vs. American views of guns and overall safety. Our collective fascination and love of guns is unique and the first thing we think of is to have guns where as the Europeans thinking exactly the opposite, generally.

Personally I don't have a problem with armed air marshalls if they are properly screened and trained. The 'pilots with guns' thing however did not make any sense to me as they have other concerns on their minds and would be much more likely to be overtaken than a trained marshall who isn't concerned with flying the plane as well as security.

IMHO

[0007]

5. What would be worse a sknockered pilot or a Marshall with one too many?

Good God, how about both on the same flight?

[northzax]

8. hey, pilots don't drink on the jpb

isn't that right, Virgin Airlines?

[DoNotRefill]

10. Well...

pilots already have a weapon that can endanger the lives of all the passengers on the plane. It's called "the controls".

The training that pilots had to go through to carry a gun on a plane is....wait for it...the EXACT same training that Air Marshalls have to go through.

Having an armed pilot on the flight just adds an extra level of security. If something goes badly wrong, like a highjacking attempt, the pilot can put the plane on autopilot and deal with the problem. What's the worst thing that can happen if they're armed? The same exact thing that could happen if they aren't, somebody could take over the plane and crash it into a building.

How does having an armed crew HURT plane safety? If they're not armed, it's easy to take over the plane. If they are and somebody gets the gun away from them, it's easy to take over the plane (but they keep the guns in the cockpit, so in order to get the gun, the highjackers already must be in the cockpit, so the highjacking is pretty much already accomplished). And if there's a problem and the pilot can get his gun, he MAY be able to stop it.

In other words, since they've had Air Marshall training, what can it hurt?

[northzax]

11. and that is voluntary, right?

no one is forcing pilots to carry guns. although they are forcing them to accept armed passengers.

[DoNotRefill]

14. actually....

they've been doing that forever, for credentialed federal agents. I've never heard of one comandeering a plane, though...

[havocmom]

18. Pilots should remain behind secure doors

and not switching to auto pilot to go have a dual in the aisle with some bad guy. What happens when John Wayne and his co-pilot get killed in a scuffle and there is nobody to land the jet?

The US must insist on secure doors as step one.

[peacebuzzard]

25. thats when the flight attendants kill the terrorists

AND land the plane. sorry, bad joke. But after flying practically non-stop for the past 14 days I am suffering from low grade hypoxia and airheadedness. The flights have been so crowded with holiday revelers and families with lots of kids...and so many people totally uncaring and rude it seemed like. Code orange meant nothing; just another colorful Bushite expression. Too many problems, pillows and Pepsis. The pilots are actually safe by current standards, its the flight attendants that get the opportunity to deal with the crazies. Like the woman on the flight with wires coming out of her jacket, I would love to read about the dialog of the flight attendant with that passenger and how it was determined that the flight needed a military escort. Anyone here have links to that?

[DoNotRefill]

26. If they are able to stay behind the secured door...

what's the problem with them having guns? They're cut off from the passengers, so the passengers can't steal the gun, right?

But if the highjackers are somehow getting through the secure door (say, with a fire axe or something like that), having a gun could come in very, very handy...

[Spentastic]

4. What a brilliant deduction

Entirely fatuous and incorrect as it may be.

How many hijackers used guns on 9/11?

How many passengers will allow a "traditional" hijacking to proceed knowing what happened on 9/11?

Armed Marshalls are there to make people feel better. Their risk mitigation value is extremely questionable.

[toopers]

6. However, had there been one armed marshall . . .

on each flight on 9/11, then everything that followed, including the bombing of Afghanistan, and the war in Iraq, may never have happened! In fact, just the threat that an armed marshall was on board (whether he/she was or not) may have been enough to deter the hijackers, or at least require a much different and riskier modus operandi.

[northzax]

9. At any given time

There are something like 10,000 airplanes in the air over the US. you would need about 50,000 air marshals to cover all of them. where you gonna get those numbers? remember, you need two on each flight.

and what are they going to do about it? on 9/11, there were six hijackers on each flight, think the Marshal's gonna get all of them with his popgun? er, no. Sky marshals are good for stopping hijackings that are interested in hostages, they are useless against suicide bombers. what are they gonna do? kill them?

And given the reality that every single agency not reliant on family connections alone can be penetrated (if the FBA can plant people in the Mafia and other organizaed crime bodies, for instance) what happens when aQ gets a skymarshal? then we have someone with a legal gun on an airplane. that's just great, don't you think? who's going to stop him? And the marshals had better be trained to fly and land the plane, in case the flight crew is killed before the marshal can kill all the hijackers.

It has always, since the beginning of aviation, been the pilot's decision who can or cannot carry firearms on his/her aircraft. The presence of a gun on board means that the pilot is no longer really in command of the flight, the sky marshal is (read your little red book: power comes from the barrel of a gun)

The same effect could be accomplished by reinforcing cockpit doors, no?

[DoNotRefill]

12. Ummm...

2 Air Marshalls, each with a 15 shot semi-automatic and two spare magazines, engaging 6 people armed with boxcutters? Dude, that's 15 seconds worth of gunfight, max. Each Air marshall could shoot 3 highjackers each 5 times without even having to reload.

Also, there are NOT 10,000 AIRPLANES in the US domestic fleet. There may well be 10,000 flights, but each takeoff-landing qualifies as a flight. A single plane, with a single crew of air marshalls, may make 10+ flights a day.

[northzax]

13. ok, let's look at more numbers

APLA (the pilot's union) has 10,000 pilots at United alone. Figure one marchal per pilot (there are two on a plane, right? and two marshals as well) I certainly don't want my armed guards working more hours than my pilots, all of a sudden you need 10,000 marshals for United alone. and then we can add American, Delta, every foreign airline, we're talking 50-60 THOUSAND people. figure another 25,000 at minimum as support staff, and you're talking about creating a government department of over 75,000 people. Or will we trust foreign carriers to use their own marshals? figure an average of $70,000/per person per annum in salary and benefits, and you're looking at $5,250,000,000 per year, minimum, for negligible return. think of how much better that could be spent increasing the training and competance of people on the ground? where real security takes place?

quick, when's the last time a sky marshal defeated a hijacking in progress? c'mon, the US, Israel, Germany and the UK at least have had this program in one form or another for decades. surely it's worked at least once, right?

[DoNotRefill]

15. When was the last time an El Al flight got hijacked?

It all comes down to the details.

"Israeli security guards foiled a suspected hijack attempt on El Al Flight 581, overpowering a passenger who tried to storm the cockpit while armed with a pocketknife.

The plane, carrying 170 passengers, landed safely in Turkey and the suspect was taken for questioning."

http://www.namibian.com.na/2002/November/world/029868B295.html

They didn't even have to shoot him.

Frankly, I'd trust El Al security guards on a plane...


Here's another one, this time by Jordanian air marshalls:
http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/bm/Qjordan-malaysia-hijack.RMCB_DSD.html

Here's one from Iran...
http://www.payvand.com/news/02/may/1052.html

Here's one from China:
http://highmarkfunds.stockpoint.com/highmarkfunds/newspaper.asp?Mode=news&Story=20030202/033w7371.xml

Is that enough, or do you need more?

[0007]

16. I can see both sides to the argument -

Conceivably a sky marshall could be overpowered and the plane taken over, by a well planned scheme....

Then on the other hand, maybe the sky marshall stopped that one plan that would have taken out a nuclear power plant.

[DoNotRefill]

24. If a scheme is that well-planned....

don't you think they'd be able to lay similar well-laid plans to smuggle their own guns on the plane? It's really not that hard to do.

[bitchkitty]

17. Flawed assumption -

Do you know what happens when a pressurized cabin is pierced by a bullet?

[toopers]

19. That is why they have bullets,

that can pierce a skull, but not the fuselage of a plane. We are not talking about the same high powered bullets that you buy from the local gun dealer. As well, often, just the threat of a gun will deter a crime -- it may never be fired, or never even displayed.

[slackmaster]

20. It depends on where the bullet strikes

Do you know what happens when a pressurized cabin is pierced by a bullet?

Yes.

Usually it makes a small hole, which adds to the inherent leakiness of the cabin. A pressure-compensating valve opens slightly, and cabin pressure remains stable.

If it hits a window it may make a bigger hole and cause a rapid drop in cabin pressure accompanied by a lot of noise. If it hits a hydraulic line or some other component critical to control of the aircraft there may be other problems.

[toopers]

21. I still like the odds of survival . . .

if a trained marshall feels it necessary to discharge a weapon, I would prefer that he discharge the weapon as opposed to not having that option.

[DoNotRefill]

22. bitchkitty....

airplanes are not naturally airtight. They already leak air, which is why they have a pressurization system. I've talked with a commercial pilot about this very issue, and he told me that in order to depressurize a plane, there would have to be at least a 4 inch by 4 inch hole put in the plane. That might happen if there was a gunfight with cannons or artillery in the plane, but it's not gonna happen with handguns using frangible ammo.

[Onward]

2. I like what the Brits said

..because it cuts to the heart of Bush's "world is a safer place" lie

[missile_bender]

7. Now these countries will have thier flights grounded

and escorted due to fake terror threats, along with France.

[Voice_of_Europe]

28. an eye for an eye

This game can be played by everyone...

you cannot just go aound and ground flights or deny landing rights

I remember something else from the bible:
"who brings the gun onto the plane shall die by the gun"


(btw I'm atheist ^_^)

[KansDem]

23. This is cosmetic, but Bush believes he HAS to do this...

Let's view the facts (in no particular order):

*Bush has stonewalled investigation of worse attack on American soil in US history;
*Bush invaded Iraq in the wake of 9/11 based on lies;
*Bush is facing a lawsuit brought by families of 9/11 victims;
*Bush sat and did nothing for 15-20 minutes or more while we were under attack;
*Bush ordered special plane to ferry bin Laden's siblings out of US before FBI could question them;
*Bush family has had a business relationship with bin Laden family for several decades;
*Bush attacks Afghanistan and Iraq, although 75% of the terrorists were from Saudi Arabia;
*Bush's involvement in 9/11. At best, LIHOP and therefore open to charges of gross incompetence (but when was the last time we heard/read that Bush reprimanded ANYONE in his administration?). At worst, MIHOP and therefore marked by treason/murder.
(these are only a few that I thought of off the top of my head. Any more?)

But Bush is in an election year and he needs to convince the sheeple that he is DOING SOMETHING to make it safer in America, no matter how cosmetic it may be.

In a "just world," he and his criminal cohorts would be out of office and in prison by now.

This makes consensual sex in the White House a bit tame, except of course, to the neo-Con Fascist Repubs...

[jsw_81]

27. Anyone who would complain about sky marshals is nuts

How soon they forget 9/11.

[Voice_of_Europe]

29. Most such things tend to be forgotten or "filed away"

As soon as all the other massacres and horrible things on this world... and there have been many worse ones... no offense intended...

Holocaust
Hiroshima
Korea/Vietnam
Kurds
Rwanda
Yugoslavia ethnic cleansing
Iraq since Gulf War I embargo

each of it cost 10'000-10'000'000 lives...

not to mention earth quakes which take away tens of thousands in a matter of seconds and are remembered for how long?...a month? a year? if it's not in your neighbourhood..

The mind can only take in a certain ammount of death and destruction...
Most of it vanishes in the mists of time...

Many people WANT to forget, else they couldn't function in their daily life...