Blackhawk helicopter down in Iraq -- 8 dead (update)

[IndianaGreen]

breaking on CNN

On edit:

Casualties being reported. No reason given for the chopper going down, but you can guess what it was.

In the Fallujah area.

On edit:

Bill Hemmer reporting breaking - 8 dead!

[imax2268]

Yup...

now the local channels here in AZ are picking it up...

[saigon68]

68. '"BRING EM ON" cried the AWOL CHIMPANZEE

And shoot down the helicopters the resistence did.

I wonder who the other 4 are??? CIA agents???

[leftchick]

83. Hi saigon..... did you happen to see this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=301915

I would love to hear your reaction to this latest kick in the ass to the military from dumbass*.....

[saigon68]

93. Ugly Medal in an ugly WAR

http://www.gracoind.com/





2 of them no less

[0007]

112. You can bet they're toastmasters!

[laruemtt]

1. cnn just said 8 dead

;(

[loudnclear]

55. Latest from Al-jazeera

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1E3CE71F-D1B3-494A-B0C4-3028B6459EB5.htm

[Judi Lynn]

2. Just reported on CBS radio news, as well.

On edit:

A short bulletin said the helicopter crashed during an emergency landing.

[leftchick]

3. you mean the dead are confirmed already?

It must have happened a while ago. So sad..... :(

[IndianaGreen]

4. Skynews: Iraq: Eight killed in helicopter crash

IRAQ: EIGHT KILLED IN HELICOPTER CRASH

The US military says eight people have been killed in a helicopter crash in Iraq. The aircraft made a forced landing in Fallujah.

More to follow...

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1118373,00.html

[4dsc]

6. But who are the 8 people??

US soldiers or others???

[0007]

15. The last few days things had been relatively quiet until yesterday,

when 35 troops were injured. Now this. 'Tis hard to get much news out of Iraq these days.

[dusty64]

5. Wait a minute,

after the week long saddamfest I thought the "war" was over. We were told this would solve ALL of our problems and it would make us safer. President Clinton was crucified over ONE Blackhawk down, how many does this make for "our glorious leader"?

[Skip Intro]

9. Wonder if they'll even wake him to tell him

Wonder if powell and condi and rummy and the gang had a good night sleep.

If our guys are over there effing getting blown to bits for the bush regime's lies, doesn't that make bushco murderers? Even a freeper could understand that logic.

Damned murderers.

Where is the outrage?

[bigwoody]

104. Piss him off and he'll invade another 3rd world country. Let the prick

sleep I say!:wtf:

[dennis4868]

56. you are right....

they even made a movie about it.

[IndianaGreen]

7. CBS News: Iraq Chopper Crash Kills 8

Iraq Chopper Crash Kills 8
BAGHDAD, Iraq, Jan. 8, 2004

(CBS/AP) Eight people were killed when a U.S. Black Hawk helicopter went down in Iraq, the military said Thursday. Earlier, one of 35 U.S. soldiers wounded by a mortar attack on a military camp died.

It was not immediately clear if the helicopter was brought down by enemy fire. Several U.S. helicopters have been shot down in the past three months, leading to a large increase in the U.S. death toll in November.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/24/iraq/main541815.shtml

[Judi Lynn]

11. From another part of your story:

(snip) On Wednesday, U.S. administrator L. Paul Bremer announced that authorities would release 506 of some 12,800 detainees in a goodwill gesture. He said the first 100 would be freed from Abu Ghraib on Thursday and the others over coming weeks from detention camps all over the country.

But a spokesman for the 800th Military Police brigade, the U.S. Army unit operating prisons in Iraq, said they had not received any order to release prisoners. "Until we get some information that says 'release these prisoners,' they are staying put," said a spokesman, Lt. Col. Roy Shere.

U.S. and coalition troops have rounded up thousands of people suspected of attacks or of funding the anti-American insurgency in Iraq.

From first light, people started arriving at the prison, some driving for hours in hopes that relatives arrested in raids and not seen for months would be among those released.
(snip/...)

Really, really sad.

[IndianaGreen]

13. We replaced Saddam with our own police state

A riot will ensue for sure when the crowd finds out that their loved ones are not among those being released.

[saigon68]

106. Yes we are Saddam

It is IRAQ-NAM

[jmcgowanjm]

44. British forced us

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1118284,00.html

[54anickel]

90. Wow. Can't come up the the words to describe my reaction to this.

[MaineDem]

8. Damn

:(

[IndianaGreen]

10. Reuters: Eight Dead as U.S. Helicopter Comes Down in Iraq

Eight Dead as U.S. Helicopter Comes Down in Iraq
Thu January 8, 2004 07:36 AM ET

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A U.S. military helicopter came down near the volatile town of Falluja west of Baghdad on Thursday and eight people on board were killed, the U.S. military said.

"A helicopter made an emergency landing near Falluja, there were four passengers and four crew members on board and there are no survivors," a military spokeswoman said.

She did not know if the helicopter was hit by enemy fire before making the emergency landing and had no details about what sort of helicopter was involved.

REUTERS

[grytpype]

12. When is this going to end?

[IndianaGreen]

14. As soon as we withdraw our troops from Iraq

and not one minute sooner.

[jpgray]

16. When will people learn there is no *military* progress left to be made?

You can't win a guerilla war when you are treating the population that vastly outnumbers you like shit. Seems like a basic historical fact, but after all, we still are using up bullets and shipping stuff around. Someone will make boatloads of money as long as we are there.

[IndianaGreen]

26. Consider those candidates that think that they can fix the Iraq mess

if they just include the international community. That's self-delusion.

The only way to fix this mess is to withdraw all of the US and British troops and personnel, unconditionally and immediately.

[jpgray]

28. I don't see that as the answer either

Then some strongman will take up the mantle and things will be no different than before for Iraq, except tens of thousands of people will be dead and billions of dollars of infrastructure will have been destroyed.

I don't know the right answer, but any peacekeeping can't be under our auspices if we have the fortune of not having Bush for a second term. Best case for me would be a predominately Arab/Egyptian/Persian multinational force under the leadership of the UN, and then a free election following. If they pick an Islamic government, that's fine. If they pick a strongman, that's fine too. If the Iraqis don't pull themselves out of this mess as much as possible, they will have to pay for it later. However, they will need some stability for any kind of smooth transition. Unfortunately, there is no real effective way to do that. :(

[Dhalgren]

32. Whenever we leave - now, or in five years,

the government of Iraq will be out of our hands. The Iraqis will decide, one way or the other, what their government looks like and how it behaves. Did it ever occur to anyone that under the dreaded Saddam the Iraqis were armed? They had a tradition of shooting off weapons at celebrations - you can't do that unless you have the weapons. Our own soldiers said that every guy on the street was armed when they got there. I don't know whether the Iraqis will pick or allow a "strongman" to take over or not, but anything we do now is just going to make things worse. I say, start loading up right now, today, and get us the hell out of there! If we had completely evacuated yesterday, it would have been too late.

[jpgray]

34. This is interesting--are you saying Iraqis *willingly* endured Saddam?

That's silliness--tell that to those Iraqis who died fighting his regime in Basra. Abandoning the country in the terrible state we've left it is an open invitation for more ruthless dictatorships, and loses any chance for the Iraqis to have any say in what happens to their country. Whoever has consolidated power will just crush all opposition that is less strong and set up shop in the old palaces to rule in like manner to Saddam.

We are patently untrustworthy and are plagued with graft; no peacekeeping force should have the US at its head as long as this is true. Whether the UN is the answer or not, I don't know. Removing Saddam was the single positive result of this invasion, and it seems to me we should find a way to withdraw our troops and odious imperialism while still putting up safeguards against another ruthless dictator. Again, how to do that?

[Dhalgren]

39. Of course we know best - right?

The Iraqis are kind of like children, right? They can't take care of themselves, we (the more enlightened Americans) have to tell others what they should and should not do.

There are Iraqi people, right now, killing "American liberators", even as we speak! If they do not want us there, who are we to tell them "it is for your own good"?! If there were a sizable body of Iraqis who were openly pro-US, it might be arguable that we stay until Bush's caper is done (this is a criminal enterprise and nothing else - for that reason, alone, we should leave now, and make things no worse by multiplying our crimes). But there is no appreciable support among Iraqis for our continued presence!

At some point, we are going to have to start treating other nations as though they were real human beings and not benighted "darkies" who are not capable of self determination. If we get the government we deserve, maybe the Iraqis get the one they deserve - why doesn't it work both ways?

[jpgray]

42. No, you are talking to yourself again

Without stability, one Iraqi will decide for all. Whoever is the best connected and has the most soldiers will decide. How do we avoid that, while still removing both our soldiers and graft from Iraq? We need to do both things, and that is the real difficulty here. More to the point, that was my question above.

Where you found "we know best" in my post, the world will never know.

[Dhalgren]

52. O.k., maybe I "overreacted "a bit - I'll grant that.

The problem I have is that the attidtude I hear is "America should decide what is done in Iraq".

We were wrong to go into Iraq - it was a crime. We were wrong to kill thousands and enjure tens of thousands of Iraqis - those are crimes. It is wrong for us to exacerbate our crimes by staying any longer - period.

What gives the US the right to determine what or who governs Iraq? Because a criminal comes in and takes over your house, he should be allowed to stay until he can sell it to the "best" buyer? Why is there the assumption that the Iraqis cannot manage their own affairs? They are adult human beings - just like us - yet we have to force our brand of "stability" on them against their will?

If "A" is wrong (morally or ethically) and it leads to "B" and "C", then "B" and "C" are also wrong.

[jpgray]

57. I totally agree with you

That's why the problem is so difficult--I don't want to have a westernized imperialist occupation of Iraq, but I also don't want them to have to have many bloody years of civil war to perhaps crawl back only to where they were before the invasion. Perhaps leaving and hoping for the best would be better--who knows? They certainly have the potential to set up a representative government without anyone's help--if enough of Saddam's military infrastructure is destroyed, maybe the strongmen won't have a chance for subjugation.

[0rganism]

108. A representative gov't would be ~60% Shi'a -- you know this, right?

Saddam's military infrastructure was the force preventing a civil war. Remember what happened to Tito's Yugoslavia, once that totalitarian apparatus was destroyed? Iraq is replaying that same scenario, sooner or later, slower or faster, with or without our military presence.

There's just too much bad blood between the major ethnic groups, and a lot more will be spilled before a central government can re-emerge to govern what's left of Iraq. It's possible that some kind of 3-state system could evolve, but then there's the problem of what Turkey and Iran will allow on their borders.

Subjugation by a strongman may be one of the few viable "solutions".

[jpgray]

116. But again, the "strongman" is back to square one

Well, not quite square one, but somewhere after square 13A, where European powers arbitrarily mixed an ethnically diverse population and said "bam! you're a country!", and into the brutal warlord period, Saddam or otherwise.

If a brutal dictator is all that holds the population together, perhaps it is best they separate? But Turkey and Syria wouldn't look kindly on that, and so it goes. :(

[0rganism]

123. The problem of an independent Kurdistan...

...is one to which Saddam Hussein was a temporary, and suboptimal, solution. The "separate states" situation likely results in annexation of northern Iraq by Turkey followed by a brutal purge, at the very least. Short of some kind of mass ethnic migration, as happened during the India/Pakistan separation period, there's just no way to simultaneously provide for the safety and independence of the Kurds.

The "transition to democracy" is not going to work. Everyone with any knowledge of the region predicted this kind of outcome, even Bush The Elder -- he LET Saddam stay in power because there was NO WAY to prevent the eventual regional strife that would result from deposing the dictator. Bush The Dumber has immersed this nation in the nastiest quagmire since Vietnam.

Invading Iraq was a stupid move in the first place, continues to be stupid in the inscrutable present, and will remain stupid for quite some time to come.

[Spentastic]

59. Now there's a thing

As a hypothetical.

You can drop a bomb so big that it may well lead to the end of WWII.

Are B and C still wrong?

For a minute lets assume that the statement is true. I know others argue strongly that the use of the atom bomb was unneccessary.

The U.S has broken something. With the international community it has a duty to aid in its mending. This doesn't exclude Iraqis from making decisions.

[Dhalgren]

61. Does the US have the right

to carry out this "duty" against the will of the Iraqi people?

Also, I am not convinced that the A bomb was necessary for the ending of WWII. I think it was necessary for making the Soviets step back and take notice. I think we took the oppertunity to vaporize a couple humdred thousand Japanese (whom we concidered at the time to be sub-human enemies)to impress the Soviets with our power. At least that's my take.

[Spentastic]

62. How

Are you going to guage the will of the Iraqi people without a functional democratic forum? You can't can you? Now some would say that soldiers are being killed therefore it is obvious that the U.S is not wanted.

Do you really believe that the people firing the bullets at American troops are going to install a liberal democracy in Iraq? Or are you saying the Iraqi people deserve what they get after the U.S crippled their country?

As for the A bomb thing. I'm undecided.

[Dhalgren]

69. I think we should help them in every way we can.

But occupying their country and daily killing and maiming their citizens isn't the way to help - just MO. We should pay serious amounts of aid over the next ___ number of years to restore their country, but our troops should leave - again, just MO. If the Iraqis want a "liberal democracy" then, by all means, we should aid them as much as possible. But that may not be the type of government they want and we shouldn't impose it.

[jpgray]

70. What about the people firing bullets at British troops in 1775?

There is nothing barbaric about battling those who wish to oppress you. Clearly, we are oppressing the Iraqis--we are misappropriating their resources, we are killing innocent people, and imprisoning their relatives without charge or reason.

The Iraqis have the potential to form whatever government they want.

[Spentastic]

71. The Iraqis have the potential to form whatever government they want.

Er so why did they allow Saddam Hussein to prosper?

This is what I don't really understand. There is no "iraqi people" there is a deeply divided society without a democratic history. What will happen if everybody just leaves Iraq.

Who wants to bet on peace?

[jpgray]

75. We allowed Saddam Hussein to prosper

Early in his career, the CIA helped him track his political enemies. Later, we gave him helicopters, and other weapons. Plus we armed him off and on during the Iran-Iraq war (when we weren't arming the Iranians), and generally liked him just fine throughout the bulk of his reign. After the Gulf War, we let him use his helicopters to butcher those who rose up against him, those who didn't "allow" Saddam Hussein to prosper.

No one knows what will happen if we leave Iraq. But the Iraqi people have the potential to form any kind of government, if they have stability enough to do so. Stability does *not* mean a US proconsul and an expatriate criminal stooge, it means freedom from warlords and internationalist influences. It's too difficult to tell what will happen in postwar Iraq if we leave.

[Spentastic]

78. I agree

However, the stability of which you speak will not just appear. it never has and it probably never will.

I'd bet my house that if the coalition left Iraq there would be civil war. the "iraqi people" you are so concerned about would die in their thousands as age old rivalries blow up. See Afghanistan.

The U.S was wrong to go in. It cannot justify staying, but just leaving a wrecked country would be a worse crime.

[jpgray]

79. Well, as I discussed with Dhalgren above

It's hard to tell which would be worse--an Iraq left at the risk of civil war, or an Iraq where civil war is delayed by a US occupation only interested in giving profit to war contractors and sucking up natural resources. Once we leave (and we will), do you not doubt that Iraqis will wish to remove whatever stooge we leave in place? Then we may have the civil war despite the brief interlude, and the only difference will be more Americans and Iraqis will have suffered beforehand.

The best situation would be a peacekeeping force free of our many conflicts of interest and imperialist tendencies. Such a force doesn't really exist, however. :)

[Dhalgren]

80. This is something that we just disagree on.

.

[IndianaGreen]

118. "there is a deeply divided society without a democratic history"

there is a deeply divided society without a democratic history

You just described Bush's Amerika to a Tee!

[IndianaGreen]

117. Having America remove Saddam, rather than having the Iraqis do it...

Having America remove Saddam, rather than having the Iraqis do it themselves, has opened a Pandora's box of problems that will destabilize the region for decades to come. The final outcome will be a hostile Islamist state that will be a greater threat to Israel than Saddam ever hoped to be.

The war in Iraq is the biggest foreign policy blunder in American history. America will inherit the whirlwind!

[Sandpiper]

120. I wonder

Did it ever occur to anyone that under the dreaded Saddam the Iraqis were armed?

The NRA ought to be pleased as punch.

[IndianaGreen]

121. It does prove the point of the right to bear arms

A well armed citizenry is the last bastion of freedom.

It was no accident that Saddam armed the civilian population just before the war started.

[el_gato]

72. I agree with Indiana Green on this

the people who think we need to occupy iraq are the same people that believe in the whole white man's burden theory

[DemonFighterLives]

81. You may be right Indy

I originally thought that the UN would be best, but Awol has botched this already. Pull the clowns Bremer and Chalabi and let Iraqi's find some Iraqi that has the will of the people in mind.
:nuke:

[Judi Lynn]

17. ABC radio news update

Quick response team on the site, no other information.

[JNelson6563]

18. On MSNBC update for CNBC

about an hour or more ago said that a surface to air missle hit a helicopter but that there were no injuries reported.

Is this a different incident?

Julie

[spinbaby]

19. I heard it hit a cargo plane

Baghdad airport. Plane landed safely. It's so hard to keep track anymore.

[jpgray]

20. Are you talking about the cargo plane?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/3708151/

Also Thursday, a U.S. C-5 military cargo plane with 40 people aboard was struck by a surface-to-air missile as it took off from Baghdad International airport, but was able to return safely to the airport and there were no injuries, a U.S. military source told NBC News.

[JNelson6563]

22. Yes, my mistake

I just caught another update. It is a different incident.

Julie

[Atlant]

41. Funny. Just yesterday a well-known DUer was telling me this was impossible

> Also Thursday, a U.S. C-5 military cargo plane with 40 people aboard
> was struck by a surface-to-air missile as it took off from Baghdad
> International airport...

Funny. Just yesterday a well-known DUer was telling me this was
impossible and that the wonderful new Commercial Aircraft anti-
missile system could protect commercial aircraft from exactly
this sort of thing.

'Guess they were wrong, huh?

Atlant

[MaineDem]

21. This report says "4 were soldiers"

http://famulus.msnbc.com/famulusintl/ap01-08-043835.asp?reg=mideast&vts=1820040448

Then it says "at least" 4 were soldiers. In any case, it's a waste of 8 lives. :(

[Jackpine Radical]

25. 4 were crew, 4 were passengers.

Unless the Army has become an air taxi service for civilians, ALL were probably soldiers.

On reflection--well, maybe we ARE taxiing Halliburton types around or something. Who the hell knows? This would be an interesting revelation if it turns out that way. Too bad if 8 people had to die so we could find out that our military is a bunch of chauffeurs for the bidniss guys.

[Sideways]

91. JR the bidniss guys are using the Army as a taxi service

Long held belief here in the ME. Just as an aside my partner was securing life insurance in November from a British company and he just slid in under the deadline...NO MORE AMERICANS INSURED IN THE ME. Pretty fucking sick eh?

Halliburton is now employing no US citizens in Iraq. Their teams are predominantly Canadians. The Abu Dhabi office for Halliburton shut down and sent their remaining (non US) employees to Oman in December.

It just gets weirder by the moment.

[Cooley Hurd]

96. Americans are being denied Life Ins in the ENTIRE ME???

Jesus! Why isn't there outrage coming from the WH or at least the State Dept over this?? No one should be denied life ins ever! I guess I could understand paying a slightly higher premium, but a flat-out denial sucks!

You're right Mary! Pretty fucking sick, indeed!

[Hoosier Democrat]

23. Where is the outrage?

I guess I just don't get it. Our kids are over there getting slaughtered to protect Haliburton's interests and nobody in this country gives a damn! (present company excluded, of course.)

I'm starting to think that the American people have been turned into mindless sheep. "Gee, if we don't complain, they won't call us unAmerican." Sometimes, I think we DO get the government we deserve.

Guess I'm just REALLY frustrated by this new tragedy.

[saigon68]

125. How many more today

I wonder?

[Capt_Nemo]

24. maybe I'm wrong but since nobody survived the crash...

... to tell what happened I believe that this will likely be atributed
to "mechanial failure" (or something to that effect) regardless...

[Atlant]

47. Yeah, it was probably a "foreign object ingestation"...

Yeah, it was probably a "foreign object ingestation" that occurred
when one of the turboshaft engines took an RPG, err, "foreign
object" up the ass and it blew up, err, "caused a stress-induced
mechanical failure" of the power turbine.

I thought calling it "an emergency landing" was creative, too.
When aircraft come out of the sky and all aboard apparently die,
most people refer to that as a crashes. Usually, you expect at
least on person to survive "a landing", emergency or not.

Atlant

[Dhalgren]

82. Excellent point.

The media is now performing "pre-emptive spin" of its own volition. I wonder where these words and phrases are vetted? Can't you just see the editorial room, full of rumpled people, all throwing out different words to cover "killed", "maimed", "crashed", "attacked", etc.

[Cooley Hurd]

97. New MSNBC headline says it was shot down...

Nine U.S. soldiers killed in Iraqi helicopter crash - Witness says aircraft hit by rocket

NBC News and news services
Updated: 12:38 p.m. ET Jan. 08, 2004

<snip>
FALLUJAH, Iraq - A U.S. Black Hawk medical helicopter crashed Thursday near this stronghold of the anti-U.S. insurgency, killing all nine soldiers aboard, the U.S. military said. A witness said the helicopter was hit in the tail by a rocket.

Also Thursday, a U.S. C-5 military cargo plane with 63 passengers and crew aboard returned to Baghdad International Airport shortly after takeoff, a military spokeswoman told NBC News. A U.S. military source said it appeared that the aircraft was hit by a surface-to-air missile. There were no injuries.
</snip>

How many "Black Hawk Downs" does this make for those pigs in the WH? At least 5 or 6... I lost count.

[DoYouEverWonder]

27. So much for it being quieter

This incident brings the average number of dead back to at least one a day since Jan. 1. One person was reported dead in the mortor attack yesterday that had 35 US casualties, plus the 8 here and it's only Jan. 7th.

In the meantime, Bu$h will probably hardly even notice. He's too busy campaigning and fund raising to bother his beautiful mind with such mundane details.

[Just Me]

29. The last few days have been awful,...

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:


My friend's teenage son is going over there in a couple of weeks. Everytime news of these incidences appear, we all cry.

[soup]

50. You're not alone.

I cry with you, Just Me. Sometimes it's all I can do because there's just no words.

[Corgigal]

30. How long before we get to know the names

Does anyone know? My doctor is over there and while it's not a family member, you still worry a bit.

[lebkuchen]

31. The army is currently making its unit rotations in Iraq

swapping out entire divisions and their equipment. The Iraqis know this.

Individual personnel rotation, as in Vietnam, makes more sense, in my opinion, as it leaves large groups of military less vulnerable to attack.

[underpants]

33. 1 dead in mortar attack (33 "wounded"), cargo plane down, and 8 dead

in the helicopter crash. Sad.

WP link

Helicopter Crash Kills Eight in Fallujah

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64423-2004Jan8.html?nav=E7
BAGHDAD, Jan. 8 -- U.S. military authorities reported Thursday that eight people -- including four crew members and four passengers -- died when a helicopter went down west of Baghdad in the town of Fallujah.
The Army was still investigating whether the helicopter was fired upon or crashed.
"A UH-60 Black Hawk made an emergency landing at 2 pm today south of Fallujah," a military spokesman said Thursday at about 3.45 pm Baghdad time (7.45 am EST).
"Eight people were on board," a spokesman said, "including four crew and four passengers. All were killed. U.S. military quick reaction force is responding. Cause is still under investigation."

[lebkuchen]

35. By the looks of the initial stages of this rotation

Feb. will be a particularly bad month for attacks.

Happy New Year? I think not.

[laruemtt]

36. just sent an e-mail to cnn

telling them what a disgrace they are, sitting there giggling and cutting stupid jokes, while withholding info about this blackhawk "accident." i called them the national enquirer of tv "news." i'm sure they'll just delete it. where's the news?????

[DoYouEverWonder]

45. Same thing happened a couple of months ago

when the reports came in about 16 dead on another helicopter. The sexy newsreader was talking to the reporter on the ground in Iraq. In the middle of reporting this terrible story, she was more interested in the fact that he was Canadian and had an accent. She just thought this was the funniest thing. It was sickening to hear some giggling and making small talk while reporting that more beautiful young American kids just got killed.

[leftchick]

37. Update on CNN.... The helo "went down"

It was a medivac with no word yet on if any were patients. Are Blackhawks used as medivacs??

[underpants]

38. Yes they have many uses

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/uh-60.htm

The Black Hawk is the Army’s front-line utility helicopter used for air assault, air cavalry, and aeromedical evacuation units. It is designed to carry 11 combat-loaded, air assault troops, and it is capable of moving a 105-millimeter howitzer and 30 rounds of ammunition. First deployed in 1978, the Black Hawk’s advanced technology makes it easy to maintain in the field. The Black Hawk has performed admirably in a variety of missions, including air assault, air cavalry and aeromedical evacuations. In addition, modified Black Hawks operate as command and control, electronic warfare, and special operations platforms.

[leftchick]

40. thank you underpants....

I learn something new here everyday thanks to you all. peace....

[Cooley Hurd]

43. CNN says now 9 dead in the helicopter crash...

Son of a bitch... :grr:

[theHandpuppet]

58. Yep... helo was on a medivac mission...

.. which would account for any civilian casualties.

So while Bremer and his lapdog brass keep insisting the number of attacks are down, the attacks seem to be more deadly with higher rates of casualties. I suppose we can't count on our own media to point that out, eh.

[leftchick]

64. cnn was giving airtime to some military spokesman this AM

who insisted the mortar attack on the base proved how prepared they are for these things. It was GOOD NEWS!!! :crazy:

[darknemus]

46. CNN just updated the # of dead to 9

Unfortunate. I can't express in words how much I loathe this needless wasting of human life for no other reason then to stroke Bush's ego and fatten his wallet (and those of people he surrounds himself with)

[catmandu57]

48. 486+8+1

We draw ever closer to the 500 mark. What the fuck are we doing? We I mean w* and co. have upset the region so much, I used the analogy of w* as a monkey that someone had given a live hand grenade to before this mess started.
Well, that fucking monkey* pulled the pin, and much to the delight of the right wingers, end timers, and murca firsters. Now, the chickens are coming home to roost, and people are discovering just what happens when you let a monkey play with explosives.
There isn't a happy end here, no matter which way one looks at it, to think that we can steal the Iraqi national resources with impunity is madness, To think that the Iraqis love us is madness as well.
We've fucked ourselves, drinking down gasoline at a dizzying rate with our behemoth suv's.
Boys and girls to use an old phrase we're screwed, blued, and tattood here no matter which way we turn.
RIP to 495 american soldiers and the thousands of civillians who just got in the way of madness.

[cmd]

49. We need to do something to honor those 500.

The Bush* administration is not about to do it.

[tabasco]

76. RIP, troops.

We will not forget.

[G_j]

77. 500

looks like this:


00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


**imagine up to 9000 Iraqis (& that's just civilians)

[cmd]

84. And half of those 9000 were probably children

Ain't war wonderful!

Now shall we add in the dead Afghani civilians? How many innocents must we kill to satisfy our revenge for 911? And the right wing thinks I am full of hate!

[leftchick]

53. the media will continue to rely on centcom's "fuzzy math"

instead of the May 1 codpiece carrier landing benchmark to reduce the casualty rate reported, it will be replaced with "x number of soldiers have died since the capture of saddam". The hoops the media go through for the benefit of dumbass* and to the detriment of our military is astounding.

[soup]

73. Hadn't thought of that.

It wouldn't surprise me, though. We'll have to watch for that, and note that you saw it coming.

Sort of an ongoing 'divide and conquer' to keep *bring-em-on's ratings up and the American public from thinking the loss is ever too great.

[Ilsa]

60. Now it's 486 + 9 + 1 from the six rounds of mortar attack yesterday.

My God, 496 dead in this immoral war.

Meanwhile Richard Perle, the f&*king prince of darkness, and David "Axis of Evil" Frum are schlepping their new book saying Americans are getting soft on fighting terrorism. They are advocating for national ID cards.

I despise these bastards.

[Flagg]

74. oh and don't forget the 96 other 'coalition of the willing' soldiers

who also lost their lives in this immoral war. Special thanx to the poodle. Couldn't have been done without him.

+ the 55 000 Iraki civilians slaughterd by 'smart bombs'

And let's not forget the couple they killed while their 5 children were sleeping


BRING'EM ON CRIED THE AWOL CHIMP


http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx

[Rainbows]

86. Link if you have Please ...

I went to your posted site thank you for that link. I was unable to find on this site any information of the "55,000" Iraqi civilians killed by smart bombs. Do you by chance have another link for this?

[IndianaGreen]

119. The bodycount does not include those that died of their wounds stateside

The bodycount does not include those that died of their wounds stateside as it happened to an Indiana Reservist, Spec. Luke Frist, that died on January 6 at Brooke Army Medical Center in San Antonio after sustaining burns over 95% of his body. Luke Frist was the victim of a rocket that hit the gas truck he was driving in Iraq.

[laruemtt]

51. if it was being used for

medivac purposes, who were they evacuating? were they from the mortar attacks yesterday? pretty late evacuating from that attack, i'd say. another attack we don't know about? what? what? news please?

[jmcgowanjm]

54. Hey, I'm picking up chatter

The intel indicates that the US, in the eyes
of the Muslim world, will be turning all of Arabya
into the West Bank model.

Prepare for invasion of Lebanon/Syria or
Venezuela/Cuba soon.

To be accompanied by dirty bomb in US.

OOPs, my mistake. The name of the chatter/agent
was mistaken. She is currently living in Peoria, not
Persia.

Never mind.

[zanana]

63. When did this happen? DATE?

I've been out of touch for the past few days. Did this happen on Wednesday, Jan. 7. or today (Thursday). I can't find information on this anywhere.

[laruemtt]

65. mortar attacks with 1 dead

wednesday 1/7. blackhawk down with 9 dead thurs 1/8. was there something in between that the blackhawk was medivac'ing people from?

[markses]

66. Uh, it's all over the news

try www.msnbc.com

www.cnn.com

www.abcnews.com

etc., etc.

[truthspeaker]

67. it happened today. Here's a link

linky: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040108/325/eim86.html

[Judi Lynn]

85. One tiny detail surfaces.

Posted on Thu, Jan. 08, 2004

Helicopters Crashed or Shot Down in Iraq
Associated Press

Helicopters shot down or crashed in Iraq:

_ Jan. 8, 2004: A Black Hawk medivac helicopter crashes near Fallujah, killing all nine soldiers on board. The military says cause was not clear, but a witness said a rocket hit it in the tail.
(snip/...)

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/breaking_news/7662238.htm

As long as this story has been out today, you'd think they'd have more written on this.

[saigon68]

87. They don't want to count these as combat casualties

disgusting

[Dhalgren]

88. Jesus! That makes

what? 10, 11, 12 today? Plus the 30 wounded yesterday...this is just getting worse and worse. (Sigh)

[Judi Lynn]

89. Yep, it was 34 or 35 wounded yesterday

I heard this morning one of those wounded people died.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. So the flowers and candy are causing more

of our soldiers to die? Damn them! This is not a cake walk Adelman...

This is not flowers and candy, Wolfowitz

And yes this is a Quagmire, as much as I do not like Junior's father, at least he understood that going in would be a mistake... granted he encouraged a revolt that could have led to more of a cake walk, and then walked away... but still... he understood what Junior does not... it would have led to a quagmire

[democrank]

94. Bush Better Get Some Rubber Gloves

to insure he won`t get blood under his nails. Operation Latex Lies.

[ellie]

95. Does anyone know

what unit the soldiers were from? My nephew is in the 82nd Airborne in Fallujah.

[leftchick]

98. Helicopter was shot down.... per: eyewitness

from aljazeera....

<He gave no details on the cause of the crash. Eyewitnesses told Aljazeera correspondent that,"The warplane was hit by a missile and we rushed to the area to see a trail of smoke billowing up in the air from the burning chopper."

Smouldering debris littered the crash site in the village of Nuamiya five kilometres southeast of Falluja.

Two choppers landed by the crash site, while another two hovered overhead.>

...... Those pesky eyewitnesses keep screwing up the "official" version.

[Cooley Hurd]

99. MSNBC reporting same thing...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/3708151/

<snip>
Mohammed Ahmed al-Jamali, a farmer who lives close to the crash site, said he heard the whoosh of a rocket, saw it hit the helicopter in the tail and watched the chopper crash in flames.

Al-Jamali said he rushed to the scene but found all aboard dead.

He said that there were two helicopters in the air, both with the distinctive red crosses of medical evacuation craft, and that the second one was hit. It was unclear whether the helicopter was carrying patients, a military official said on condition of anonymity. Waleed Kurdi, a student, said he heard “a loud explosion and I saw the fire in the air.” He said the aircraft exploded in two before it hit the ground.

A U.S. helicopter was shot down Jan. 2 in the same area, killing one soldier, and military officials said the Black Hawk almost certainly was shot down by rebels.
</snip>

[Dhalgren]

100. Are we calling them "rebels", now?

Are they rebelling against us? Does that mean that the Proconsul's office is the legitimate government and the Iraqis are rebels? My, my, my...

[Cooley Hurd]

101. Yep, just like the "rebellious" French...

...that fought off their Vichy Nazi leaders in France during WW2. How dare they!!!!

[saigon68]

102. Actually they are the Resistence

Kind of like the French Anti-Vichey Patriots of WW 2 fame

[Dhalgren]

110. I like "resistence" better - it's more apt.

But in a lot of these articles, now, I'm seeing the word "rebels" use as an identifier - it just doesn't seem to really fit well, I guess.

[leftchick]

113. Ajazeera regularly uses Resistance fighters....

I agree, it is much more appropriate.

[llmart]

103. sick to my stomach

I've used up my entire vocabulary of words to describe how much I despise the idiot-in-chief and how insensitive he and his whole cabal are to the havoc they've wreaked in the world! I have and will continue to speak out openly about how imperative it is that we get him out of office before he does more damage to America!

DAMN THEM ALL TO HELL!

[Cooley Hurd]

105. Welcome to DU, IImart!

It never ends. The senseless loss of life - thousands are dead - and for what? We've "liberated" a people who really didn't care to be liberated. We've destabilized the whole region and now we're stuck in Iraq with no clear exit strategy. We're LOSING the war on terror because we've diverted resources from the fight against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. This administration's blunders are DEADLY!

We have to start cranking up the anti-war rallies again this year - especially during the repug convention in NY and all the way up to the election.

:grr:

[The Night Owl]

107. Bush's new slogan for his Iraq policy...

No Soldier Left Alive.

[0007]

109. Bye, Bye, American Pie

Bye, Bye, American Pie

"A long, long time ago,
I can still remember how
that music used to make me smile.
And I knew if I had my chance
that I could make those people dance,
and maybe they'd be happy for a
while.

But February made me shiver
with every paper I'd deliver.
Bad news on the doorstep
I couldn't take one more step.

I can't remember if I cried
when I read about his widowed bride,
but something touched me deep inside
the day the music died.

So, bye-bye, Miss American Pie
drove my chevy to the levee
but the levee was dry,
and them good old boys were
drinkin' whiskey and rye
singin' this'll be the day that I die,
this'll be the day that I die.

Did you write the Book of Love,
and do you have faith in God above
if the Bible tells you so?
Do you believe in rock 'n roll?
Can music save your mortal soul?

And can you teach me how to dance real slow?
Well, I know that you're in love with him
'cause I saw you dancin' in the gym.
You both kicked off your shoes,
man, I dig those rhythm and blues.

I was a lonely teenage broncin' buck
with a pink carnation and a pickup truck,
but I knew I was out of luck
the day the music died.

I started singin'
bye-bye, Miss American Pie
drove my chevy to the levee
but the levee was dry,
and them good old boys were
drinkin' whiskey and rye
singin' this'll be the day that I die,
this'll be the day that I die.
this'll be the day that I die.

Now for ten years we've been on our own
and moss grows fat on a rollin' stone.
But that's not how it used to be
when the jester sang for the King and Queen
in a coat he borrowed from James Dean......

for more of the song .......

http://www.angelfire.com/ok/Mirromoto/AmPie.html

[maveric]

111. I've had CNN on for 2 hours now and not a word of this crash.

A lot of Scott Peterson trial, Michael Jackson, primaries, Kobe....
Not a GD word about this.

[0007]

114. CNN a direct line from the White House

Don't want too much talk about this little accident.

[Snazzy]

115. AP Story (9 dead)

U.S. Chopper Crashes in Iraq, 9 GIs Killed

15 minutes ago

By SAMEER N. YACOUB, Associated Press Writer

FALLUJAH, Iraq - A Black Hawk medivac helicopter crashed Thursday after a witness saw a rocket hit its tail, killing all nine U.S. soldiers aboard. In Baghdad, a C-5 transport plane with 63 passengers and crew limped safely back to the airport after it was struck by hostile fire.

About 80 Iraqi prisoners, meanwhile, were released from Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison, but they were not the detainees that U.S. authorities had promised would be freed under a special amnesty.

The military said a U.S. soldier died Wednesday of injuries suffered when a mortar attack that wounded 30 other troops and a civilian west of Baghdad.

The deaths brought to at least 495 the number of Americans killed in Iraq (news - web sites) from hostile and non-hostile causes since the start of the war in March, according to the U.S. Central Command and the Department of Defense (news - web sites).

The Black Hawk went down about four miles south of Fallujah, a stronghold of the anti-American insurgency, the 82nd Airborne Division said.

....

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&e=1&u=/ap/20040108/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

[osaMABUSh]

122. 10PM ET Thurs. NOTHING on cnn.com! check out poll on WMD

Nothing at all on the homepage of http://www.cnn.com/ about NINE DEAD AMERICAN SOLDIERS - NOTHING!!!! That is immoral, unpatriotic, pathetic and disgusting.

You can, however, voice your opinion on

"Was the war in Iraq justified if Iraq was not pursuing a weapons of mass destruction program?"

currently 55% NO. Pehaps the sheeple are waking up again. I mean its been almost a month since Saddam was pulled out of the hole and we do have short memories.

[Snazzy]

124. Seriously 'softballed' at 1:30 am

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/08/sprj.irq.main/index.html

They have a midnight story, mis-categorized in the US section.

They have it as a crash, no mention of the chopper being medivac. CNN also decides that the more important story, first four grafs of lede, is the transport plane that "appeared ... was hit by fire from the ground, but it is not clear what weapon was used."

In the fifth graf we get to:

"In the earlier incident Thursday, a U.S. UH-60 transport helicopter made an "emergency landing" just south of Fallujah -- a stronghold of the anti-U.S. insurgency -- while on a routine mission, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said.

No details of the cause of the crash were given but it was the latest in several fatal chopper crashes in or near Fallujah."

Thereafter follows a round-up of other crashes, and the rest of the mess in Iraq painted so nicely per CNN.

Note the "emergency landing." AP, the NYT and, no doubt, a 100 other sources which CNN has available, all talk about witnesses to a missile strike on the red-cross bearing medivac chopper. AP's witness says it split in two in-air.

CNN's homepage top stories right now include how code orange will continue if you live in a blue state, and *'s trip to mars (beware a new costume).

They also, somewhat oddly, have a "color-piece" article (top 10) on Buffalo soldiers--though they leave out Marley:

Buffalo Soldier, Dreadlock Rasta:
There was a Buffalo Soldier in the heart of America,
Stolen from Africa, brought to America,
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival.

I mean it, when I analyze the stench -
To me it makes a lot of sense:
How the Dreadlock Rasta was the Buffalo Soldier,
And he was taken from Africa, brought to America,
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival.

Said he was a Buffalo Soldier, Dreadlock Rasta -
Buffalo Soldier in the heart of America.

If you know your history,
Then you would know where you coming from,
Then you wouldn't have to ask me,
Who the 'eck do I think I am.

I'm just a Buffalo Soldier in the heart of America,
Stolen from Africa, brought to America,
Said he was fighting on arrival, fighting for survival;
Said he was a Buffalo Soldier win the war for America.

http://www.lyrko.com/index.php?prikazi=4227&jz=ang