Bush Plans to Send Americans to Moon, on to Mars(1 tril cost ends Soc Sec)

[papau]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=2&u=/nm/20040109/ts_nm/bush_space_dc

Bush Plans to Send Americans to Moon, on to Mars

Fri Jan 9,12:50 AM ET

By Steve Holland and Adam Entous
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Buoyed by a successful landing on Mars by a robot explorer, President Bush plans a major announcement on space policy next week that envisions sending Americans back to the moon and ultimately to Mars, officials and congressional aides said on Thursday.

<snip>Vice President Dick Cheney was also involved in the policy development, along with other senior Bush advisers. The administration was said to see the initiative as an important national security measure and experts said it could lead to new technologies and potential new sources of energy.

<snip>Bush's election-year announcement is likely to face challenges from fiscal conservatives and Democrats who want him to focus on domestic issues like education and health care. But the ambitious proposal will strike a chord with some lawmakers.

Experts said the goal should be to set up a research base on the moon to test technologies that would be useful on a mission to Mars.
"The idea is to go to Mars. And the way you get to Mars is you go to the moon and you practice three days from home. It's the equivalent of climbing Mount Rainier and preparing for Mount Everest," said Howard McCurdy, a space-policy expert at American University in Washington.


Comment - this is 1 trillion minimum - guess SS and Medicare and education can wait.

[mobuto]

1. A trillion here and a trillion there

pretty soon you're talking real money.

This will have no inherent scientific value - and we'll soon (30 years) see some guys clowning around playing golf on Mars.

But it will change the subject away from Iraq, at least for a week or two, and prove to the fickle electorate that Bush has that vision thing.

[mouse7]

39. Real (peaceful) Mission to Mars would be be excellent

Read post #21 for a lot of reasons.

Also, investment in space program is one of the best economic development plans for the US we have in the government arsenal. Every dollar spent on the space program comes back like 7 fold through high tech innovations added to the economy. Education only comes back like 3 fold.

However, I doubt this is a real committment to these programs. It's just an election year pose. Bush also wants to militarize space, and the last thing we need is another hole to throw weapons money in. We have a nuclear arsenal that can vaporioze the planet many times over. We don't need more than that.

[mobuto]

57. If Bush wants to militarize space

whatever that means - because as far as I can tell space is already pretty militarized - he can and will do so without having to make noises about Mars. The US launches military satelites all the time. How would this Mars adventure change that?

[kitkatrose]

40. Ha! Maybe if we find the trillions the Pentagon "lost"

then we can pay for this expedition. :eyes:

[Ilsa]

68. "... playing golf on Mars."

Probably the only way he can improve the distance on his drive.

Geez, I wish NASA would just send him and Cheney to Mars and get him to leave our pocketbooks the fuck alone.

[Chico Man]

2. One good thing that ~may~ come out of this..

If it keeps jobs here in the US then that would be a good thing. At least we may get the mindset back that innovation will keep us on top.

[kalian]

7. Unfortunately...that WON'T happen...

[Chico Man]

11. It is unfortunate

And I'd have to agree with you.

[mobuto]

12. About the least efficient way of providing jobs

NASA is not a national employment program, nor should it be.

The jobs we should actually be most concerned about, the ones we WERE concerned about during the Clinton Administration, were those of Russian scientists and engineers. If we can't find them something to do at Baikonour (like building the International Space Station), then they'll be tempted mightily to go seek paying jobs in Tehran or Pyongyang building missiles for less noble purposes than simply going where no man has gone before.

[Chico Man]

26. But it may provide some form of inspiration

Something American companies desperately need.

I agree, it is far too expensive, and the real motives behind this are most likely not noble. But I'm trying to look at the bright side.

[leesa]

36. Don't do that because then you will pretend that this is not the scam it

is. Go read PNAC. They have a wet dream to militarize space. They have stolen our money to do this. This can only be described as dastardly and to give them an inch is wrong.

[KTM]

63. They are already touting it

as having "national security" benefits. Make no mistake, this is a wolf in sheeps clothing - nothing more than an attempt to militarize space. Saint Ronnie would be proud.

[Jazzgirl]

69. Leesa, I made this very same point in another post

a few days ago. I said the same thing. This move to space is just advancing the PNAC accord right along. They have always planned on dominating space exploration and refuse to be outdone by anyone.

<<nothing new here, nothing to see, move along>>

Jazzgirl

[kysrsoze]

56. Actually, you'd be amazed at the number of earthly benefits

A lot of innovations in aerospace and computer technology have come out of the space race. Even households have seen benefit - look at velcro. If we were to use the moon as a stepping stone to planetary exploration, the process to extract oxygen and hydrogen rocket fuel (assuming plasma drive doesn't come to fruition for awhile) would help in building technology to do the same for hydrogen cars.

The problem is that this is a B.S. promise with no real intentions (unless they involve the military) and no money to fund it. Sadly, just another lie.

If we had any sense, the U.S. would invest heavily in alternative fuels and power generation - but that would make too much sense.

[mobuto]

59. I can do without Velcro

I'm not a critic of space exploration - there are a great many legitimate scientific purposes that can be addressed with space probes. I think the Cassini mission to Saturn is a great example of NASA's ability to answer questions.

But the manned space program is an expensive and scientifically bankrupt boondoggle, and you can't tell me that we're going to be spending a trillion bucks on this thing just so we can get the next generation Velcro.

If we were to use the moon as a stepping stone to planetary exploration, the process to extract oxygen and hydrogen rocket fuel (assuming plasma drive doesn't come to fruition for awhile) would help in building technology to do the same for hydrogen cars.

I have no problem with spending money on hydrogen research or on developing new space propulsion techniques. I do have a problem with them being developed with the goal in mind of putting some clown on Mars, because I don't think that's an efficient allocation of our scarce resources.

[kysrsoze]

82. I guess we should all just strive to go about our daily lives

You know, velcro was just a small example of something quite pedestrian. You'd be amazed at how much aeronautic and technical value has come out of the Space Program. I didn't even mention the pure scientific value of such a plan. Further exploration of the Universe gives us knowledge about how it began (the theories change often), how life was created, evolution, etc.

Humans have both a destiny to explore the Universe we live in. Intelligence is our biggest resource and it should not be wasted. I don't want us to wait until this generation has been dead for 1,000 years to begin learning about the rest of space. I guess it's easy to discount space exploration if you have absolutely no interest in it. Surely you must see some value in the Mars Rover landing?

BTW - re: the trillion dollar figure. If it's that high, it's only due to the defense research they would want to include in it (if there is any true intention). NASA does things on a shoestring these days b/c they don't get appropriate funding.

[thinkingwoman]

83. some people can't

it's easy to dismiss the value of things such as velcro if you have ten working fingers and ease of movement.

Ask those who don't how velcro has changed their lives for the better.

[Yavin4]

3. Did They Find Oil On The Moon or Mars?

eom

[xultar]

4. It'll be worth the $$$ if GWB gets a 1 way ticket n/t

[meow2u3]

25. He WILL be going back home :)

After all, he is a Martian from outer space :evilgrin:

[frogfromthenorth2]

5. Any WMD on the Moons or Mars?!?!

[kalian]

9. Nope...but maybe there's OIL....

:eyes:

Or...we start hearing about an AlQaeda base up on the Moon...given
that we can't find OBL down here on Earth...

[mot78]

55. That would officially make * more insane than LaRouche

Sadly, the media will go and blame the Clenis.

[ignatius]

66. Hey,maybe Iraq's WMD's are up there.

n/t

[Gin]

19. Not yet...but...we will be sure to put some there....it's not bad enough

we screw up the earth...now we will screw up the moon and mars.

george...I will gladly pay for you to go on the first mission. You can even wear a space suit.

[tinrobot]

29. Knowing GWB...

He'll send a couple of hundred of our best marines to the moon.

...and have absolutely no clue on how to bring them back.

[grytpype]

6. It's the NEW GEORGE W. BUSH!!!

This is part of the "new" George W. Bush package -- less slaughter, more nice things!!! A Man of Peace!!!

I recall Daddy Bush proposed a manned mission to Mars, which was quietly dropped when NASA produced a cost estimate.

Then he got his ass kicked by Bill Clinton. And Daddy Bush won his war on Iraq.

[mobuto]

13. It just doesn't make sense

Anything we need to know about Mars can be found out with $800 million robotic probes. We don't need to spend in excess of a trillion bucks - 1200 times more - to duplicate that.

[grytpype]

15. He's not actually going to do it!!!!

C'mon, get real. There's no way Duhbya is actually going to follow through with this. It's just part of the NEW DUHBYA marketing campaign... "He's about more than unnecessary slaughter!"

[mobuto]

61. Well for one thing

I don't think even Karl Rove will find a way to keep Bush President until 2030 or whenever this thing is supposed to land on Mars.

[Zero Gravitas]

31. Exactly right

this just more election year poseing. Nothing will come of it as they have no intention of funding it, its purpose is to try and spin the Little Emperor as a Man Of Vision. Maybe he'll dress up in a space suit when he gives the speech.

[pnziii]

8. It's called for in the PNAC plan

Goto
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
Look at
"Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century"
in Publications and Reports.

Direct link if it works is
http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Start reading from page 54. It calls for US military control of space.

If you want to know the plans of this admin and what they will do next just read this report. They have followed it verbatum.

[kalian]

10. Just like Hitler followed Mein Kampf....

scary, isn't it?

[mobuto]

14. Uh no,

this is a silly and misguided plan, but men on Mars won't be controlling space militarily. No, that's what we have anti-satelite weapons and NRO cameras for.

[Occulus]

41. maybe not on mars

but what about putting weaponry on the moon?

[mobuto]

62. Weaponry on the Moon?

Why on earth (no pun intended) would we put weaponry on the Moon?

What possible advantage over orbiting satelites would that afford Pentagon brass?

[pnziii]

74. Larger payload

A satellite can only hold a small weapon. A base on the moon can handle a larger assortment

[RamblingRose]

16. Votes, Votes, Votes

It's another ploy for Bush to get votes in Florida. I grew up on the Space Coast, and the economy there is very dependent on the space program. Since the Columbia accident, the shuttle program has been on hold, and many people are getting worried about their jobs. Layoffs from the space program have a ripplie effect for the whole area. I suspect it's all talk and no action, and will be forgotten about after the election.

[grytpype]

17. The Dem candidate can co-opt this very easily.

"I'll go to Mars, too." Easy.

[mobuto]

18. Make a promise to put a man

or woman on an extrasolar planet by the year 2300.

Voters never remember promises like this that Presidents get wrong, they only remember the ones that they get right. Kennedy promised to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade; Reagan promised to put one on Mars. Who do we remember?

[BiggJawn]

20. Why? And why should my Great-Great-Grandkids have to pay for it?

We can't even afford to make sure that all our kids have a good education, less and less people each year can afford to see the doctor and be Well, and this dumb-ass is pulling straws out of his ass and telling us he's gonna put us back on the moon (only in a permanment camp this time) and then on to Mars, and then "To Inifinity, and BEYOND!!!"...

And the Murkan sheeple are just lapping it up like kittens around a dish of chicken broth....

How we gonna AFFORD this? THAT'S what I want to know!

Must have found fuckin' OIL on the moon.....

[EstimatedProphet]

21. I hate to disagree, but I do

but I think going back to the moon is a good idea, and on to Mars, and others...
I think abandoning the moon was one of the worst things we did for the American psyche in the mid 70's. Unfortunately, instead of working progressively toward a long-term goal with the Apollo program, the immediate goal of men on the moon was reached, with no plans for future activities, like a moonbase.
Colonizing space doesn't have to mean militarization (although I have no doubt that PNAC wants it to), but has a number of benefits to the world in general:
1) Advances in technology that go along with the kind of cutting-edge research necessary to make space exploration work will (and did in the 70's) revolutionize consumer markets. E.g. microchips, which came out of the computer refinements needed for the Apollo program.
2) Much of today's technology would be aided by establishment of labs and production facilities in weightless environments, like clean rooms for DVD/laser production, or weightless environments for chemistry and pharmaceuticals.
3) An emotional national goal that isn't linked to beating up on another country would be a positive thing. This of course assumes that the space exploration goals aren't military...
My 2 cents...

[tinrobot]

38. I agree about your disagreement, but...

Consider the messenger. The man is pure evil. I think space is really important, but somehow I think GWB has ulterior motives.

If Al Gore was making this announcement from the White House, I'd be doing backflips of joy.

[EstimatedProphet]

43. Agreed

We really do need to own this issue. After all, we started it.

[Zech Marquis]

22. ask Halliburton to pay for it!

that's who sucking all the money out of Social Security and Medicare, right? He pissed off alot of conservatives from his immigrantion plans, and now THIS?!

[kayell]

47. Halliburton will probably get the contract to do it

[ramapo]

23. Good idea

Finally a Bush idea that I agree with. The US has squandered ~30 years since we backed away from the space program in the early '70s. We would have maintained a much greater lead in technology had we kept up the manned exploration of space and the US would have something to be proud of.

Where would the money have come from? Easy, siphon a bit off the defense outlays to the PEACEFUL, non-military exploration of space.

Too bad I think this is mostly a PR stunt. Daddy Bush had a quick, explore Mars idea too back in his admin. Here Baby Bush can appear that he's thinking about the future so he throws out a Kennedy-esqe idea. I'm sure that space domination figures into the equation and I'd like to see where the money comes from.

[Bridget Burke]

24. NASA's in Tom DeLay's district.....

I really would like more space exploration--unmanned & maybe manned again, someday. But not now, not this way, not by these guys.

Meanwhile "a $100 million Earth-observing spacecraft conceived in the middle of the night by then-Vice President Al Gore will soon be entombed in an aluminum box in the corner of Building 7 at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt. No one knows if it will ever fly."

www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A38864-2001Aug6¬Found=true

[EstimatedProphet]

27. That's no great surprise

Like everything else, the Republicans don't want space exploration to go on unless they can take credit for all the innovation (and blame the failures on someone else).

[tinrobot]

28. Follow the money...

Who's the big beneficiary of all this? The defense industry, of course.

Who gives lots of money to GWB? The defense industry, of course...

[GRClarkesq]

30. We have to get there so we can plant the flag

and look for oil.

[bushisanidiot]

32. Freeps Won't Like This Cuz Science is Evil Thus Sayeth The Bible

everything you need to know about the universe and how it was created is already in the bible, ya know..

:P

[Zero Gravitas]

33. More Lies

This is just election year posturing. As people have mentioned already its just part of an attempt to portray the Little Emperor as something more than a war monger. They have no intention of going through with thsi plan... at least those parts of the proprosal that don't contribute to whatever crazy space warfare plans the PNAC crowd has.

[pinto]

34. they speak of new priorities, exchange of tech (NASA/DOD),

restructuring, and national security interests. What ever money comes out of Congress is sure to end up with Defense, be untouchable and unaccountable, and the brinkmanship in space is on...

Remember when we spoke of precluding space from militarism....

Obviously, once framed in the "if we don't do it they will" format,debate (as in "our" reps in Congress)will be curtailed.

(sigh)

[banana republican]

35. Bushes Moon shot

[salin]

37. Wonder how much of it will be privatized - and go directly to corps

related to Carlyle ... and other connected corporations.

The most recent revelations of the fine print in the medicare/prescription drug plan (that we knew was bad - but not HOW bad) include that the tax incentives to corps to keep benefits for retirees.... well the corps don't have to keep the benefits for retirees - but they still get the tax incentive... and that drug benefit card that is supposed to help for the first couple of years until the program is set up... well the corps with the contracts CAN negotiation for lower prices (but for somereason the overall full program isn't able to do this)... BUT they do not need to pass any savings on - the incentive is for them to do the bargaining to increase profits... NOTHING this administration does - not even going to war... is done for the "good" (and in their delusional minds the IRaq war was for the good) there are always BIG profits to be secured by cronies.

Look closely at the plan when released - see how much of it gives tax dollars away to corporations with NO strings attached, no oversight, nothing.

[rman]

42. US says space is ours

Unilateralism goes to space
EE Times
may 19, 2003
www.eetimes.com

"Under policy of 'negation', US prepares to keep other nations from
near-Earth orbits, blocking communications, intelligence gathering.

..Rumsfeld Commission Report in national security in space...
..National Reconnaisance Office is talking openly with US Air Force
Space Command about actively denying the use of space for intelligence
purposes to any other nation at any time - not just adversaries, but
even long time allies, according to NRO director Peter Teets"

[0007]

44. Going Mars should be a creative effort by every country in the world.

Not an ego thing that shows the world this super power can do anything!

If it is not a community effort then it is not worth pursuing.

[ignatius]

45. What's the matter, has he run out of places on earth to fundraise?

[BiggJawn]

46. And where is he going to get the ENGINEERS?????

What, the old "Apollo" program guys? Aren't they all dead or retired?

OK, so we get new engineers...
let me pose this to you:
College gets more and more expensive every year. Ahh-Nuld just jumped U of C 10% undergrad/40% grad. And the rest of the country is following (if not leading) suit. So only the children of The Rich will go to college.

Fine, so, rich Engineers kids get to go to college. WRONG. Engineers don't get rich from engineering. They get rich from MANAGMENT.
The children of CEO's doctors, lawyers, etc. will be going to college. and they will be studying to be CEO's, doctors, lawyers, etc.

Who wants to start off life almost 1/2 a million in debt to work a 80 kilobuck job as "Dilbert"?

No money, no Engineers, no technology....it's an "Election year Blow-Job" and the Sheeple are eating it up.....

[kitkatrose]

48. At the rate we're going, we may outsource the NASA jobs. n/t

[papau]

49. Lowest bid and non-union and trust me - it is the Bush way - n/t

n/t

[oostevo]

70. There's a policy against this.

I know someone who was working with me at NASA from Canada as a consultant. She couldn't touch <i>anything</i> and had to be accompanied at all times (even to the bathroom).

[Capt_Nemo]

50. Reality check

As we speak there are only 2 countries with an operational capability
of manned flight in low Earth orbit, and the US IS NOT one of them.

Forget the shuttle. It will make a short number of "kamikaze missions"
to complete the ISS and will be mothballed right after.

Talking about the going to the Moon without having a reliable manned
vehicle out of the drawing board or a Saturn V / Energyia class booster
(that the US is NOT going to have in less than 7 years in a best
case scenario)
is little more than nationalist ego-boosting drivel...

[Abaques]

51. You are completely wrong on the price tag.

We could go to Mars for $20 billion startup and then another $2 billion per trip. All of this over a decade. That isn't really that much money in comparison to our defense budget. Going to Mars would also assist in the development of a great many new technologies just like the Apollo program did.

In other words, going to Mars is a good and noble goal that is also very much within our economic means.

The problem is that Bush is just putting out election year politics with this. He's trying to go for JFK's vision, but he won't properly fund anything. Hell, he knows that congress (both parties) won't fund the thing anyways. Add to that the fact that it would take 10 years to get a mission launched, and Dubya doesn't really have to do anything.

[pinto]

52. Jay Barbree (NASA) on MSNBC, 2 PST: here's the line:

jobs, minerals and if we don't get a base on the moon the Chinese will.

love it when NASA folks take the high road in space exploration

[Baclava]

54. Yes, but...

Well look at it this way. If we do indeed go back to the moon, then they can prove to the conspiracy folk that there really WAS a moon landing in 1969.

[yellowcanine]

53. High School Student Council Election Promises

This reminds me of an election when I was in high school and one candidate for Student Council promised Coke machines in the cafeteria and another candidate topped that with "popsicles" in the cafeteria. This is that trivial. Get rid of the deficit. Fix health care, medicare and social security. Find Osama. Fix the roads, bridges and railroads. Improve the public schools. Solve the mideast conundrum. Find a cure for AIDS. Then....maybe think about space. Idiots.

[ignatius]

60. Yellowcanine for president!! Nice post and extremely valid

problems that need fixed. Setting priorities to Bush is war,tax cuts for the rich, war, tax cuts for the ricg, war, tax cuts for the rich...you get the idea.

[yellowcanine]

84. Ah-thanks but no thanks.

If nominated I will not run. If elected I will not serve. But thanks for the kind words.

[private_ryan]

58. how do you come up with a $trillion number?

please tell us how.

[doc03]

64. Poppy Bush had same goal

Lou Dobbs ran Bush SR speech from 1989, it was exactly the same thing Bush JR said today.

[The River]

65. BAIT & SWITCH !!

Here's the Bait!
"Look over here" said George the Pretender!
"I said look over here people!
Never mind the man behind the curtain!
I've come to "hype-you-up" with my impression of JFK
by offering this nation a noble challenge.
I'm a visionary leader who will lead this nation to
a "Brave New World"..."
"Lost in Space" isn't just a movie title!

Here's the Switch!
After Billions and Billions of
devalued dollars we get
The Emperors "Death Star"
Doomsday incarnate now orbits
this blue-green jewel we call home.

Got a pesky dictator sitting on "your" oil?
We've got a space laser so accurate they can just
lobotomize him, or anyone else
who gets in their way, from space

Gives new meaning to the word "Underground" doesn't it?

[young_at_heart]

67. Is he trying to bankrupt the nation?

Surely the Republicans in Congress will NOT go along with this stupidity!

[artistaboard]

79. You said it

He IS trying to bankrupt the nation, so it can be auctioned off to private interests one agency at a time. That's the plan. Camouflaged and sold as vision.

[MikeG]

71. Is he gonna send Pickles to the Moon?

TO THE MOON ALICE!!!!

[Dr Fate]

72. I support the space program...

...I hope this works out- seems like most of the $$$ are going towards various "terror wars" though...

[gulliver]

73. Legacy?

What a disgusting thought. Considering what he did with the Earth, hasn't Bush screwed up enough planets already?

As soon as the Dem president gets in he should cancel Bush's program and restart a different one. That way something honorable and exciting like the space program won't have Bush's grimy twit fingerprints on it.

[imax2268]

75. I wonder if

Halliburton will get contracts on the moon and Mars...?

[RamboLiberal]

76. Don't you know we have to keep rogues and terrorists from controlling

space? And we have to write the Monroe Doctrine of space? If they have the transcript up in time I'm going to nominate Feeney for an Conservative Idiot of the Week award.

Hey I didn't say this. Wacky Repug Tom Feeney said this on Scarbourough's show tonight. Good thing I wasn't drinking or eating anything at the computer or I'd be cleaning the screen and keyboard right now I was laughing so hard.

I stayed tuned in to Scarbourough tonight only cause even Repug Joe was ripping the * administration talking about going to the moon and Mars when US is running massive deficits.

[aeon flux]

77. Bush is a certified loon

this has to be the most crackpot idea of the century. Bush has no money for schools, healthcare, congested roads and highways, bankrupt states, on and on. But has a trillion dollars for some insanely expensive, largely useless, cockamamia space program? Nothing but a massive pork barrel project for his friends in the defense industry.

It will be that much easier for the Dems to portray shrub as the most reckless out-of-control deficit spending freak this country has ever known.

[aeon flux]

78. btw,

The most disturbing thing about this is that neither Congress nor the mainstream media is asking the obvious question, where the hell the money is coming from, how does Bush plan to fund this thing? The mainstream media has been uncritically reporting on this for days without the slightest critique.

Is this an election ploy or is Bush serious? Bush would probably just wipe out SS to fund this, so the answer is probably both. Believe it or not, the House has already approved $15 billion in INITIAL funds for the moon/mars project.

There was a time when Congress once served as a check on the Executive branch. Nowadays, they (along with the mainstream press) are nothing more than a rubber stamp.

[The Zanti Regent]

80. Neon, you know where the money is coming from!

MORE TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH!

MORE TRILLION DOLLAR DEFICITS!

in the name of Supply Side Jesus, AMEN!

[Astarho]

81. "The moon belongs to America..."

"...and anxiously awaits the arrival of our astro-men."

http://www.snpp.com/episodes/4F21

[daleo]

85. It'll never happen

PNAC could invade a good ten countries with a trillion dollars. Priorities.