Bush's bishops: Exit Iraq now

[sabra]

Source: ChicagoTrib Swamp Politics Blog

President Bush’s church, long at odds with him on matters of public policy, called on the United States and its partners today to begin withdrawing troops from Iraq immediately.

The Bishops of the United Methodist Church approved a resolution calling on Bush, Congress and leaders of the other coalition partners to begin the “immediate safe and full withdrawal” of all troops, declare that there will be no permanent military bases in Iraq, increase support for veterans of all wars and initiate a reconstruction plan to address the humanitarian, social and educational needs of the Iraqi people.

...

In issuing the call, the bishops said their position is based on the denomination’s belief that “war is incompatible with the teachings and examples of Christ,” and on the call of Jesus Christ for “his followers to be peacemakers.”

...

In a response, the White House said that Bush “believes our moral and strategic imperatives are one.”

“We must defeat the violent extremists who threaten the future of Iraq and threaten the United States,” spokesman Scott Stanzel said in an e-mail. “Our men and women in uniform are protecting Iraqi citizens from violent terrorists who want to indiscriminately murder innocent civilians by the tens, hundreds and thousands. Our effort to protect innocent life is a noble cause for which the American people should be proud.”

Read more: http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/11/bushs_bishops_get_out_of_iraq.html#more

[Ian David]

1. Contact them, and ask them to Excommunicate Bush.

I've found conact info:

Main directory:
http://www.umc.org/site/pp.aspx?c=lwL4KnN1LtH&b=1716943


Regional Bishops:
http://archives.umc.org/Directory/OneJurisdiction.asp?Jurisdiction=03&mid=556&SearchFor=B
http://archives.umc.org/Directory/OneJurisdiction.asp?Jurisdiction=09&mid=556&SearchFor=B
http://archives.umc.org/Directory/OneJurisdiction.asp?Jurisdiction=01&mid=556&SearchFor=B
http://archives.umc.org/Directory/OneJurisdiction.asp?Jurisdiction=05&mid=556&SearchFor=B
http://archives.umc.org/Directory/OneJurisdiction.asp?Jurisdiction=07&mid=556&SearchFor=B

[happyslug]

5. Will excommunication do any good???

That is the first question any religious leader MUST make. Will it convince Bush to withdraw the Troops? No, WIll it turn Bush supporters against him? As to the remaining supporters NO? Will it help the Troops by the Troops knowing at least the Religious Leaders oppose them Dieing for nothing? Given the control of WHAT information the Troops are getting NO.

Thus ex-communication does NO more good then a the statement the Bishops did do, the troops know the Methodist OPPOSE this war and they being shoot at, but the troops also know they can NOT use that as an reason to leave.

My point is excommunications does no good (and what good it will do, the broad statement the Bishops did do adds up to the same affect).

[Ian David]

6. I disagree.

Doctrine says that once you are excommunicated, it is the church's position that your soul is beyond redemption and you are damned to Hell.

by excommunicating him, they are sending a message that Bush is essentially a tool of Satan.

[happyslug]

8. That is the CATHOLIC view of Ex-communications, but Methodists are Protestant.

In both Catholic and Protestant Churches ex-communication is exile from the community of the faithful. i.e. a ruling from the Church that you are NO LONGER PERMITTED IN THEIR CHURCH OR TO TAKE COMMUNION WITH THEM. With Catholics and Orthodox this extends to your soul. Most Protestants follow Luther in that Ex-communications is only in this life, not your afterlife. This view of Ex-communications is one of the Difference between Protestant and Catholic theology).

While Catholics hold Ex-communications extends to the after life, such condemnation can be ended after death either by the Church acting in this world, or God acting with his more complete knowledge. Thus the difference with Luther is more technical than real, but it still exists and the Methodists are Protestants and followers of Luther in this debate.

But my main point was NOT the issue of who can ex-communicate and how long does it last but will it do any good. I just do NOT see it doing any good when it comes to either Bush or the war in Iraq. Thus my dispute is more tactical then theological, I just can not see how ex-communication by the Methodist Bishops will do any good given George Bush's actions up till now.

For more on ex-communication see:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

[Ian David]

19. Thanks for enlightening me. But I still think it would have a huge impact.

For the following reasons:

1) It is unprecedented in the history of America. As far as I know, it has not been done since the days of Kings.
2) It is the most profoundly powerful message a Church can send. It is, in effect, "The Nuclear Option" of a church.
3) Many people will believe (as I did, before you corrected me) that the message of excommunication would be that the church has condemned Bush to Hell, and that he is no longer a Christian.
4) Hardly anybody in the media or public will pay attention to the message the church has sent him. If they excommunicate him, it will be front page news for days.

[okasha]

13. Do Methodists even have a form of excommunication?

n/t

[Jacobin]

15. I don't think they do

[Aviation Pro]

2. No wonder he's been going on his little tricycle rides on Sundays.....

...instead of going to church. What's the matter little girl? Too much heat for you? Awwwww, don't cry you little sissy.

[Ian David]

3. Email the Bishops and ask them to Excommunicate Bush

The addresses below are all publicly listed as belonging to the Bishops in the directory:
http://www.umc.org/site/pp.aspx?c=lwL4KnN1LtH&b=1716943

[e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]

[JohnnyLib2]

4. Yeah--but God told him otherwise.

Amazing, isn't it? :shrug:

[pinkpops]

11. Yes George reports directly to the Man In Charge

[MasonJar]

7. No one deserves it more!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gen. Jack D. Ripper]

9. Counterpoint, if I may, Mr. Stanzel

"Our effort to protect innocent life is a noble cause for which the American people should be proud."

As many as 83,175 documented civilian (may also be referred to as "innocent life") deaths, from violence in Iraq since the US-led invasion. http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

I am an American, Mr. Stanzel, and I am not proud.

[SpiralHawk]

10. "Who cares what they think? I'm a Skull & Boner, not a real Christian." - Commander AWOL

"We Skull & Boners are special, like real occult and stuff, so them there Bishops can go pound sand with the rest of the proles.*"

- Commander AWOL
Republicon Homelander Occulist, and Chickenhawk-in-Chief)

[Benhurst]

12. John Paul II feared Bush might be the anti-Christ.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKY/is_9_27/ai_108881880

Whatever you think of the late pope, that's hardly a recommendation.

[humbled_opinion]

14. Well then which God told him to take out Saddam in the first place? hmmmm n/t

[Doctor_J]

16. These Bishops are anti-American terrorists

and should be put on the no-fly list

[JohnnyLib2]

17. So THAT'S why they are at a remote place in the Smokies. No

airport, no flying. :evilgrin:

[rodeodance]

18. Ha ha.

[Orsino]

20. And it only took how many years?

Oh, I'm aware that the bishops have called for timetables for withdrawal before, but I'm disappointed in any institution that failed for so long to condemn this war.

I'll still take their god over *'s any day.

[LynnTheDem]

22. They did condemn it, and BEFORE bush illegally invaded Iraq. In fact,

bush's own minister condemned it.

As did every major religious denominaiton in the world.

But Jesus Christ is just a librul leftie anti-American Saddam-loving terra-ist.

Except when the republics kill people in His name, of course.

[Amonester]

21. I didn't know our men and woman in uniform were...

protecting Iraqi citizens from the violent terrarists in the White House (who murdered innocent civilians by the tens, hundred of thousands, for their noble cause of pumpin' these poor people's oil out and cash in the increasing benefits).

Hope the Bishops understand the Real deal... (i.e., that they know about the neocon's "psychological projection").
!