2nd juror says she felt pressured in racially-charged shooting case

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Houston Chronicle/ Associated Press

Dec. 26, 2007, 10:23AM
2nd juror says she felt pressured in racially-charged shooting case

Associated Press

RIVERHEAD, N.Y. — A second juror who convicted a black man of shooting a white teenager in a racially charged encounter now says she felt pressured by fellow jurors to change her vote to guilty.

Juror Donna Marshak told the New York Post she was so distraught when the verdict was read that she turned her face away so she did not have to look at John White as he was convicted of manslaughter in the Aug. 9, 2006, shooting.

The verdict came after 12 hours of deliberations Saturday, the fourth day in which the jury considered defense arguments that White feared a "lynch mob" had set upon him when a group of angry white teenagers gathered outside his home in Miller Place, a predominantly white community on Long Island.

The Post had previously reported that another juror, Francois Larche, decided to change his vote to guilty after Suffolk County Judge Barbara Kahn told jurors they would have to return Sunday if they did not reach a verdict.


Read more: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/nation/5404375.html

[tom_paine]

1. It must be awful to be a juror these days, with the crazy 30% Bushies programmed for pure evil

or that which looks right through pure evil and absolves the "innocent" bystander.

Further, Bushiganda has transmitted the template of Bushie intimidation and made it a science, literally. Anyone who goes up against that is up against three decades and billions of dollars of linguistic redfinition and Orwellian behavior modification science.

Sure the idiot Bushies who have learned to ape it don't know that. They only know to repeat the template, and the vast majority of people will cave almost automatically.

[seriousstan]

2. "Idiot, greedy, bloodthirsty little savages with only the explanation that they imagined that at

some point they might be in danger from the people they killed. Perfect."

Where have I heard that before?

[Judi Lynn]

3. What ARE you attempting to share? n/t

[seriousstan]

4. I think it as clear as black and white, how some folk's positions change

judged by the color of their skin.

[Judi Lynn]

6. What the ### ARE you attempting to say?

Who are these "some folks."

Don't dither about in your vagueness. People just don't have time for that crap.

If you hate minorities, be a grown person and own up to it. Don't waste everyone's time.

[seriousstan]

7. I don't, my OP was actual a quote from you during the Joe Horn discussion.

Funny how your sympathies have changed.

As for hating minorites, or anyone based on their external properties, I leave that to others.

[Judi Lynn]

8. Could you go ahead and post a link to that comment? I just put John Horn's name in a search

and didn't come up with anything with my name attached to it, although I didn't look at every thread. Here's the search I came up with:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php

Here is the LBN thread in which you participated. I don't see my name there, anywhere:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3087738

I'm interested in seeing where you found my comment. I wouldn't deny I wrote that because it's definitely appropriate, considering the circumstances.

You are attempting to tell people the two cases, one a filthy piece of crap in Texas, calling the police and telling them someone was breaking into a house next door, during daylight hours, and leaving with the loot, that he was going to run out and shoot them. He was advised to stay out of it. He went and shot them. He shot them in the back. His life was NOT in danger at any point.

Here's a story on the verdict at the trial in question. Why don't you tell me what these cases have in common? Here's that article, excerpted:

"A lot of people are hurt from this verdict," said Frederick Brewington of Hempstead, who said the guilty verdict was disappointing for the White family and "also disappointing for African-Americans in Suffolk County."

"What this just basically has said ... is that you have to survive as an African-American in Suffolk County, where people can roll up on your house at 11:30 at night, threaten you, threaten your family, curse at you, call you a , and you've got to take it."

But Assistant District Attorney James Chalifoux - who spoke with lipstick smeared on his face from being kissed by the Cicciaro family - said the jury's verdict was based on the letter of the law.

"Mr. White was faced in an unfortunate situation, in a difficult situation," he said. "But he reacted to it poorly, recklessly and now a jury has said that he acted criminally."
(snip)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22378592/

On edit:

I just finished checking LBN for John Horn for the last three months, don't get anything. I am also interested in why you kept a link to my post, out of curiosity.

[seriousstan]

9. 37k posts and you need me to learn how to search your own posts?

I think the practice will do you good and be time well spent.

Now, let's begin with how they differ.

One shooter called the cops first, the other armed himself AND his son and waited for them at the end of his driveway.

One shot thieves actually committing a crime, the other shot people who were yelling at him as he held a pistol and his son held a shotgun.

One confronted people that he had seen breaking into a house with a crowbar and was unsure if they still possessed that weapon, the other shot people where there was no evidence of a weapon.

My point is, if one is a "filthy piece of crap", they both are. So please explain how White has a better case for his murderous filthy behavior. I'm all ears.

[Judi Lynn]

10. I search well enough. I'm not finding the link you claim you have.

I'm not interested in going through the two cases with you. There is absolutely no comparison whatsoever.

One's life was in danger, one's was most surely not.

Racist idiots simply never are able to disengage when good sense should inform them.

[seriousstan]

12. Of course you are not interested in going through the two cases.

You have no basis for your position that one is a filthy murderous idiot and the other isn't....except for race. The very definition of a racist.

Hint for the clueless, search your posts.

Trust me, very little I have seen many post is worth saving but I do remember positions rather well and can navigate a search.

[NorthernSpy]

31. Why don't YOU explain how the two cases are equivalent?

Mr. White was awakened in the middle of the night by his son, who said that there were some people coming to kill him.

• Mr. White grabbed a gun and went outside.
  
  
• Several young men arrived in two cars.
  
  
• The men were drunk and belligerent, and refused to leave Mr. White's property when he ordered them to do so.
  
  
• One of the young men, refusing to back off, made a grab for Mr. White's gun. This action resulted in the young man getting shot in the face.

Joe Horn witnessed a daylight burglary when he saw two men enter his neighbor's property and called 911.

• The 911 dispatcher told Horn that the police were on their way, and to stay inside his house.
  
  
• Horn argued with the dispatcher, saying that he wanted to go out and confront the men.
  
  
• Eventually, Horn told the dispatcher that he was going outside to shoot the men.
  
  
• He went outside and shot the men in the back they attempted to flee the scene.

Okay, "Serious Stan", why don't YOU explain for how these two incidents are equivalent, because you clearly want to believe that they are.

[Book Lover]

18. self-delete

Item is addressed below.

[seriousstan]

19. Here self delete

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2315532

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seriousstan]

21. Your welcome.

[NorthernSpy]

34. You're "all ears", huh?

Actually, I don't for a minute believe that you'll hear anything I say.

Now, let's begin with how they differ.

One shooter called the cops first, the other armed himself AND his son and waited for them at the end of his driveway.

One shot thieves actually committing a crime, the other shot people who were yelling at him as he held a pistol and his son held a shotgun.

One confronted people that he had seen breaking into a house with a crowbar and was unsure if they still possessed that weapon, the other shot people where there was no evidence of a weapon.

My point is, if one is a "filthy piece of crap", they both are. So please explain how White has a better case for his murderous filthy behavior. I'm all ears.

Believe it or not, "Serious Stan", it's illegal to assemble a mob to assault people in the middle of the night, or at any other time. It's illegal to refuse to leave someone's property after being ordered to do so. Assaulting a man who is holding a gun and telling you to get off his property is illegal -- and stupid.


If those young men who went to this man's home to attack his family had been black, they certainly would have been blamed for the whole situation and its outcome, and the survivors would be facing charges. And as for the dead guy, if he'd been black, I think the conventional wisdom would be good riddance.


But they're white, and the people they attacked are not. Which means that these particular thugs can expect to get the benefit of the doubt from certain people -- even when there isn't any doubt.

For instance, I fully expect you to insist that showing up drunk and belligerent in the middle of the night at someone's home, and taking a baseball bat and several friends with you, and trying to grab the gun that the homeowner is pointing at you as he futilely orders you to get off his property doesn't really constitute an attack. Not in THIS instance...


:eyes:

[Igel]

11. Not to interrupt ...

I can't imagine why serioustan didn't just post the link rather than snark. (Of course, that also sounds like a bit of snarkery, alas.)

This is the first thing I've read about this case, and I've studiously avoided the entire Horn mess.

In any event, the link he referred to is from 11/20/07:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2315532

Post #246 is what you're after (I'm not sure that this is right--I don't think I've ever linked to a reply before--but I think http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2315532#2320350 gets you your and only your snippet of the discussion.)

[Judi Lynn]

14. Thanks, igil. I didn't find anything on my own. Apparently I do suck at searches!

I tend to agree with what I wrote, other than I was in too much of a hurry, and wrote "idiot" when I mean "idiotic." Embarrassing.

Appreciate your taking the time to locate what the hey the poster was referring to. Very kind.

[NorthernSpy]

30. Mr. White was confronted by several drunk, belligerent young men who refused...

... to leave his property when ordered to do so, and one of whom grabbed for his gun instead of backing off.


Joe Horn shot two men in the back as they were fleeing his neighbor's property. The men did not confront him, or assault him.

I think it as clear as black and white, how some folk's positions change judged by the color of their skin.

Yes, I'm aware that Joe Horn's fans aren't likely to support a black man who defended his home and family in a legitimate self-defense situation. That's because according to them, armed self-defense is a whites-only right.

[JoFerret]

5. That seems like it was a bad case/ bad trial

I hope this is not over yet. That well named juror "Burke" sounds certifiable. And "not about race"? OF COURSE it was about race.
Sure smells bad to me.

[Marrah_G]

13. If two jurors are saying this there needs to be a new trial

[Judi Lynn]

15. The original NY Post story:

~snip~
Marshak, a white 63-year-old retiree, said she tried to put herself in the defendant's shoes, imagining how he must have felt when he saw five angry youths in front of his house, looking to confront his son.

"I think there's a problem on Long Island," she said. "People live in bubbles. But sometimes you have to live in other people's bubbles."

Marshak, also from Miller Place, described an acrimonious jury room, as stubborn panelists in favor of a guilty verdict refused to reconsider. That was consistent with the version offered to The Post by fellow holdout Francois Larché, who is also white.

Larché said he gave in and voted guilty because he felt pressured by the judge and was bullied by "10 hostile" fellow jurors.

Marshak said she succumbed because Larché had already caved, and she thought she had no chance to resist alone the onslaught of fellow jurors - and would never be able to single-handedly change any of their minds.

"I couldn't believe that some of the people right away knew he was guilty, after about an hour," she said. "Most of the people were respectful, but some just seemed like they just didn't want to listen. It was very difficult."

More:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12262007/news/regionalnews/li_slay_juror__i_sobbed_in_regret_263547.htm

Looking for a photo of the deceased, located one which had been shown at Free Republic. There's a discussion for anyone who wants to see what those guys "think." I scanned the beginning, was surprised to see there was someone there who didn't seem like a foaming-at-the-mouth lunatic.

I noted one of them said that these scums chased the man and his son back down his drive to his house.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1681717/posts&h=425&w=356&sz=12&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=q83S2NdkAMGvsM:&tbnh=126&tbnw=106&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDaniel%2BCicciaro%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DGGLD,GGLD:2004-37,GGLD:en



The deceased. Newsday photo. Taken from Free Republic.

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. It is the nature of a jury to "feel pressured"

The whole point of a jury system that requires unanimous verdicts is that people will have the ethical chops to vote with their conscience regardless of juror or judge pressure. That's the whole fucking point. I have so little sympathy for somebody who felt pressured and thereby changed their verdict that I can barely stand to hear their mealy-mouthed stories. So, you felt pressured? So what? You condemned a defendant to prison for years because you felt uncomfortable with ten strangers in a room? What kind of human being are you?

[rasputin1952]

17. I have to agree w/you there, and I think everyone who will sit on a

jury should watch "Twelve Angry Men". I've been on two juries, some of us felt pressure by some seriously dominant "Type A" people, but the whole reasoning behind a jury, is to get to the truth and convict or acquit.

If all members of a jury feel that conviction is the proper verdict, then conviction it should be. But if even one has doubts, unless/until they they are compelled by evidence alone to convict, they need to stand their ground.

In a drug case here in my county, I would not, (nor would 4 others), back down. We did not buy the case the DA's office put forth. The defendant was Hispanic, but race never entered the deliberations. I think I felt some animosity from some on the panel toward the defendant, but no one came flat out and said or indicated racial/origin bias. The defendant was acquitted; the evidence did not stand up and it was a poorly planned/executed prosecution. (FWIW, it took us 4 days to come to acquittal).

edited: grammatical error...:blush:

[sandnsea]

22. But that man in Texas is a hero

for killing Mexicans who were "threatening" him. Crazy world we live in.

They're both guilty as far as I'm concerned. Although nobody should be forced to change their plea and there needs to be a new trial.

[classysassy]

23. Lets be real

racism is still the worlds greatest evil.Greed is a close second.

[BreweryYardRat]

24. Automatic grounds for appeal if not an out-and-out mistrial, I should think.

They'd do well to change the venue to NYC if it's a mistrial.

Can't blame the guy at all -- there's a swarm of roid-pumped guidos on his front lawn screaming racial insults and threats? Hell, he could have shot the lot and I wouldn't complain.

[mopinko]

29. not

the vote of the jury was the vote of the jury. buyers remorse is not grounds for anything.

[Solly Mack]

25. Pathetic

[POAS]

26. Has anybody here actually witnessed such

racial intimidation by a mob?

I have! And it is scarier than you can imagine!

Living across the street from me was a middle aged black couple and their teenage sons. They were the only black people on the block.

Several weeks earlier a burning cross had been thrown on their lawn which left an unmistakable scourge mark in the grass.

Sitting in my living room one evening I heard a commotion outside and went to investigate. What I found was a group of about 20 or 30 white people "surrounding" that families house with several young punks whom I did not recognize yelling obscenities and racial epithets at one of the sons while his mother was yelling for him to get back in the house because the cops were coming to take care of things. Most of the people in that crowd were simply neighbors who also heard the commotion and came running to see what was happening, but how could that scared mother and her son know who was there to get them and who wasn't? The son held a knife in his hand and was yelling for the punks to leave and not come any closer. It could easily have been a gun in his hand and in his adrenaline laced state of fear I can easily see that this could have all gone very badly.

Fortunately the police did arrive, and in force, in only a few more minutes and the situation calmed down quickly. The punks were taken away in cuffs but later released.

The young black man is now a policeman himself.

The white man was later arrested for possessing some stolen property (some of it stolen from my house) and was sent to jail for his second time.

It could easily have been a whole lot different!

[JustAnotherGen]

28. Amen

My dad's response to this conviction?

"The guy should have shot all five of them. Five less klans men in the world."

It was the response of two of his cousins and 3 of his friends yesterday. All six of them are in their late 60's to late 70's and originally hailed from Northern Alabama.

The reality is - I'm not from there - I'm from New York and in my early 30's.

I'm sorry - the whole story brings to mind the stories we all heard growing up about the white folks in the South that would come and get black men who stepped out of line with white women.

Maybe this man heard those same stories and reacted as he SHOULD have. Who knows what kind of monster that kid was in the process of becoming.

[boricua79]

27. fuck this lady

she just convicted an innocent man, all because she couldn't tell other jurors that she didn't believe this man was guilty and would not be pressured. Pussy.

[flashl]

32. K

can not rec.

[NorthernSpy]

33. the judge should set aside the verdict...

On account of the jurors being too stupid, weak, and/or malicious to do their duty fairly.


Failing that, this verdict has GOT to be appealed.