Argentina destroys 70,000 guns under civilian disarmament plan

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Xinhua

Argentina destroys 70,000 guns under civilian disarmament plan

www.chinaview.cn 2007-12-27 10:03:34

BUENOS AIRES, Dec. 26 (Xinhua) -- The Argentine government has destroyed 70,000 guns collected from civilians as part of the National Voluntary Gun Handover Plan, local media reported Wednesday.

Andres Meiszner, director of the National Arms Register with the justice ministry, said the plan offered up to 150 U.S. dollars per gun in reward and guaranteed the anonymity for those who handed over the guns, starting from July 10.

He said that authorities had received on average 500 guns a day, half being just registered or in active use, together with a total of 50,000 rounds of ammunition

The government plans to spend 10 million Argentine pesos (3.18 million U.S. dollars) on the plan in 2008.

Like many Latin Americans, Argentines have traditionally used guns for hunting and property defending while guns can be bought without a license at gun shops.




Read more: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-12/27/content_7321155.htm

---

What would Charlton do?

http://www.unknownhypnotist.com.nyud.net:8090/images/gianni/Gianni020.jpg

A hypnotist doesn't need a gun!
MENTAL SKILLS!

[NickB79]

1. Interesting idea

Pay someone $150 for a 50-yr old, rusted revolver, and that person can take that money to buy a brand new, shiny semi-auto. Even in the US, you can find cheap semi-auto pistols for less than $200.

[RaleighNCDUer]

2. But...but... think of the Argentinian people who could use those guns

to keep the right wing generals from seizing power for years and persecuting all leftists and opposition politicians and union leaders...

Oh. Right. They did that anyway, when the people HAD the guns.

[Judi Lynn]

3. Isn't THAT the truth! 30,000 missing leftists and suspected leftists. n/t

[saigon68]

4. Yes they could have assassinated a few of those thugs

Or blown them up with IEDs

[Judi Lynn]

5. Declassified documents from the U.S. State Department, under Clinton:

STATE DEPARTMENT OPENS FILES ON ARGENTINA'S DIRTY WAR

New Documents Describe Key Death Squad Under Former Army Chief Galtieri

First Bush Administration Declassification Praised by Human Rights Monitors

National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 73 - Part I

Washington D.C. : The National Security Archive and its partner NGO, the Centro de Estudios Legales y Sociales (CELS), today praised the State Department's declassification of more than 4,600 previously secret U.S. documents on human rights violations under the 1976-83 military dictatorship in Argentina.

"The documents provide clues to the fate of 'disappeared' citizens in Argentina by an unchecked security apparatus, and tell the story of a massive and indiscriminate counterinsurgency campaign carried out by the military dictatorship targeting real or imagined subversives including thousands of labor leaders, workers, clergymen, human rights advocates, scientists, doctors, and political party leaders" said Carlos Osorio, director of the National Security Archive's Argentina Documentation Project.

The special declassification, initiated by the Clinton Administration and completed by the Bush administration, has yielded hundreds of cables, memoranda of conversations, reports and notes between the State Department and the U.S. Embassy in Buenos Aires, that help clarify a handful of cases of disappearances. "They are a clear contribution to families seeking information about their missing relatives and to Judges seeking to make the military accountable for past abuses," Osorio added.

On July 10, 2002, Argentine Judge Claudio Bonadio charged former President Galtieri along with 30 other military officers for the disappearance of a dozen Montonero subversives in 1980, among them Horacio Campiglia and Susana Binstock. The documents provide new information on several issues:

• The abduction of Horacio Campiglia and Susana Binstock by Argentine intelligence with Brazilian collaboration in Brazil, their detention and disappearance from the Campo de Mayo detention center, as well as hints on the fate of dozens of other disappeared people captured by the military in 1979 and 1980;
  
• Clarification of a handful of cases of disappeared people and useful information on others;
  
• Structure and modus operandi of the security and intelligence apparatus involved in the disappearances in 1979 and 1980 - chain of command of military intelligence Battalion 601 and the joint operations center known as Reunion Central leading up to the then Army commander in chief Leopoldo Galtieri;
  
• Torture in detention centers and assassinations and disappearances as a counterinsurgency policy of government forces;
  
• The cooperation between intelligence and security forces of Argentina and Brazil in illegal cross border detentions as well as with other Southern Cone intelligence services, mainly Uruguay and Chile, under Operation Condor in the mid 1970's;
  
• The spill over of counterinsurgency operations of Argentina's intelligence and security units into neighboring Bolivia, Peru and Brazil, as well as Spain in the early 1980's;
  
• The meticulous documentation by the U.S. Embassy's human rights team of nearly 10,000 human rights violations - most of them disappeared.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB73/index.htm






Former Army Chief, Head Honcho, Leopoldo Galtieri, and All Star Players

[fascisthunter]

22. Nailed It...Lol (nt)

[enid602]

6. Argentina

Argentinians are interesting. Couples think nothing of having very hurtful, abusive fights/arguments (with lots of hand gestures) in public, but think it's tacky to shoot each other. If you can believe it, they think we're the odd ones.

[Runcible Spoon]

15. I'm engaged to an Argentinian.

From provincial Salta, and although he does not consider himself culturally "traditional" I can't say that I can agree with your comment about public violence and abuse. One thing that struck me about living in Buenos Aires was how romantic it was, couples snuggling and canoodling openly. My fiance says there are quite a few things he doesn't understand about Americans, one being their pornographic obsession with guns and another being our inability to accept being #2 or #3 etc. in anything, whereas in Argentina performing well is really almost as good as winning. Wonder if these things are connected somehow. Interesting article, was just talking about this with him. :shrug:

[enid602]

24. Argentina

I'm hoping to move to BA in the Spring, and have spent a total of about 6 mos in BA over the years. I once saw a couple go at it right in the main concourse of the big bus station very near the Retiro train station. I saw another couple get into a terrible row on the deck of the Buquebus (hydrofoil) going to Colonia del Sacramento, Uruguay. I just found that people in Argentina have no problems airing their dirty laundry in public. We Americans might seem embarrassed by such displays, yet shootings in public are perfectly normal.

[krispos42]

7. Well, I sure am glad all the honest people turned in their guns

We can expect the crime rate to drop sharply now as all those honest people reject the siren call of using their guns to commit crimes and instead get a full-time job and raise a family.

:eyes:

[harmonicon]

8. not so fast

I don't know if it's the same in Argentina as in the US, but I've heard that the law-abiding people who use guns are far more likely to have those guns stolen and/or used against them than ever have a chance to use them to defend themselves. Sure, crooks will get guns if they want them, some how, but isn't it better to make it at least a bit more difficult?

[krispos42]

14. There are over a million defensive gun uses per year in America

Another pro-gun poster has both the study you reference and refutations of the statistical process used, but I don't recall them off-hand. Maybe he or she will jump in? :shrug: If I recall correctly, it's a Brady argument, and many their arguments do not stand up particularly well to an informed person.

For what it's worth, IIRC it was a pretty decent argument. I think it's somewhere in the Gungeon.

Guns are not a magical panacea against violence. But neither are attempts to disarm, either. The British have severerly disarmed themselves. A complete ban on handgun ownership in 1998 and on "assault weapon" ownership in 1989 has made no significant change in violent crime or homicide rates. The British paper routinely carry articles reporting on the skyrocketing crime and homicide rates, smuggled handguns are flooding the country, and the constables there are increasingly carrying guns. And the 4,000,000 police-monitored public-area security cameras aren't working either, apparently.

Gun homicides are down, yet total homicides are at or near record highs. :shrug: I bet if the UK banned the ownership or posession of black passenger vehicles, the number of accidents, injuries, and deaths due to black-painted vehicles would plummet. Doesn't mean it's progress.

What I belive winds up happening is that the murder rate per, say 10,000 assaults goes down when you do things like disarm the people, but because they are now easier prey, more assaults occur so that you wind up having the same amount of murders but more assaults.

[harmonicon]

16. ok, I may be wrong, but there doesn't seem to be an argument that this is a bad thing....

just a choice to make, right? I don't think we should think of people as being anti or pro gun... well all just want peace and security. As for why the UK is so screwed up, I have no idea. I moved to the UK this year and even in a smallish (100k people) city, there have been a few murders. One thing that is different there is that a murder isn't just on the 5 o'clock news - it's covered for days if not weeks. I have not heard or read of any gun violence there.

[krispos42]

19. Well, it becomes a wedge issue

A method of getting people to the polls, a way of soliciting political donations, a way of distraction from important issues.

Violent crime is in large part a result of poverty. Yet, to "fight crime", what to politicians run on? Stricter laws, more cops, more prison time, more prisons. And, strict gun-control.

Yet people aren't committing violent crimes because they have guns! There are a bunch of reasons they committ crimes. Greed, emotional relief, status, drugs, recreation, gang-related "business", power over other people (e.g., rape), etc. None of these will be affected by making guns harder to own because such laws affect the law-abiding first and the law-breaking last.

The concept of "assault weapons" and the need to ban them were created and sold as a crime-control measure that the DLC promoted as an alternative way for Democrats to get "tough on crime" without mirroring the traditional Republican views on the issue. The 1993 Assault Weapons Ban (which was a horribly misnamed piece of legislation, like Bush's "Clean Skies" law) was part of a larger federal crime-control bill, yet only a small percentage of homicides were committed using guns that had cosmetic features the bill banned!

But now the reinstatement of the assault weapons ban is as much an article of faith among Democrats as banning gay marriage is among Republicans. Even though we paid heavily at the polls in 1994 for out article of faith and Republicans never get punished for their article of faith.




I did not know about the UK murder coverage, but in a way I'm not surprised. By making a very big deal about it, I wonder if they are making the situation worse. Much like extensive, days-on-end coverate of our school shootings I believe imbedded the concept of school massacres into our collective conciousness for probably a generation or two, I wonder if by making such a bid deal out of it over there is actually making the problem worse. The kind of attention that some sick criminals crave, and all that goes with it.



There are two reasons I'm concerned about this. One is the protection of Constitutional rights. Remember, once a right or an aspect of a right is legislated away, it's unlikely to ever come back. Look at the Patiot Act. Despite is numerous flaws and unconstitutional provisions, it has gained political inertia and is still hanging around and may well be for a generation or more. And when it finally goes, it will likely be replaced with something worse.

The other is I think it's a major election loser with no moral or practical benefit. Gun bans and other politically-motivated gun regulation don't stop crime and don't protect anybody BUT they keep Republicans in office. And when Republicans are in office, the suicide rate goes up, the crime rate goes up, social spending goes down, our schools are undermined, our enviroment gets polluted, and we get involved in costly foreign wars that kill hundreds of thousands of people.

I mean, hell, if we're going to go down in flames at the polls, I'd rather it was for passing Medicare-for-all or legalizing recreational drugs, both of which will have massive moral and practical benefits! :-)

[harmonicon]

20. I agree, it shouldn't be a wedge issue

I don't own guns, and probably never will. My father was a sharp-shooter in the army, and a green beret. He would never even let us shoot guns on Y camping trips, etc., because he thought they were made for war and killing. So this is pretty deeply ingrained in my psyche. I do have friends who own guns, and that doesn't bother me. It does bother me that they're easy to get. That fellow who went on a rampage in Virginia should have been stopped. They had sensible laws under which he shouldn't have been sold the guns he used (I think it's clear he bought them for that purpose), but the law was poorly enforced. It also seems like the weapons used in these school shootings are often taken from the home where parents use them responsibly..... but the parents are never blamed.

If you feel so strongly about this, I think it would be good if folks such as yourself had an organization, like the NRA, but either publicly leftist, or, better yet, politically neutral. I think far-right gun owners (this is from what I've seen in my life) are in the minority, and it would be good if that was publicized.

[krispos42]

23. There are a few left pro-gun organizations...

And if the Supreme Court says that gun ownership is an individual right I suspect that the ACLU will have to rethink it's position on the Second.

I don't belong to any, though. I'm just all by my lonesome a DU keyboard warrior! :-)

[Joanne98]

9. Don't destroy them, take them from the right and give them to the left!

[Judi Lynn]

10. You have to wonder how many of the missing 30,000 would have hoped to get a shot in at someone

before they threw them out of the airplanes flying over the ocean, or a lake, or river, or a mountaintop.

[slackmaster]

18. Most of the ones being turned in are likely in poor condition, even non-functional

$150 is a pretty good haul for a broken shotgun or cheap, unreliable handgun.

[ileus]

11. When uncle sam starts offering 150 for 75 buck junk, I'll be a happy man.

[anakie]

12. The same thing happened in Australia

10 or so years ago following the Port Arthur massacre. Guess what? The sky didn't fall in.

[Tejas]

13. their murder rate went up...and up...and up.

Funny thing, the antis down under bragged that the murder rate didn't increase as much as normal.

Imagine that, bragging about a murder rate that increases every year.

[anakie]

25. do you have any numbers for this?

To be shot to death in Australia is rather uncommon.

"Decline in gun deaths doubled since Australia destroyed 700,000 firearms"

"The risk of dying by gunshot has halved since Australia destroyed 700,000 privately owned firearms, according to a new study published today in the international research journal, Injury Prevention.

"Not only were Australia's post-Port Arthur gun laws followed by a decade in which the crime they were designed to reduce hasn't happened again, but we also saw a life-saving bonus: the decline in overall gun deaths accelerated to twice the rate seen before the new gun laws," says study lead author, Professor Simon Chapman.

"From 1996 to 2003, the total number of gun deaths each year fell from 521 to 289, suggesting that the removal of more than 700,000 guns was associated with a faster declining rate of gun suicide and gun homicide," said Adjunct Associate Professor Philip Alpers, also from the School of Public Health at the University of Sydney. "This was a milestone public health and safety issue, driven by an overwhelming swing in public opinion, and promptly delivered by governments."

After 112 people were shot dead in 11 mass shootings* in a decade, Australia collected and destroyed categories of firearms designed to kill many people quickly. In his immediate reaction to the Port Arthur massacre, Prime Minister John Howard said of semi-automatic rifles and shotguns: "There is no legitimate interest served in my view by the free availability in this country of weapons of this kind… That is why we have proposed a comprehensive package of reforms designed to implement tougher, more effective and uniform gun laws."

As study co-author Philip Alpers points out: "The new legislation's first declared aim was to reduce the risk of similar gun massacres. In the 10½ years since the gun buy-back announcement, no mass shootings have occurred in Australia."

http://www.usyd.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=1502




Peace

[Tejas]

26. still looking but.......

This is from an older post of mine, I got these figures from an Australian Gun Control website. The "Brady-style" wording they used*** made the (increased) murder rates look good to those gullible enough, I'd give anything to find the page I got the figures from.

Armed robberies increased 10% in each of the two years preceeding the ban, increased 6% the year following.

I'll use 1,000 as a random number:

1993 - 1,000 armed robberies
1994 - 1,100 (10% more)
1995 - 1,210 (10% more)
GUN BAN
1996 - - 1,280 (6% more)


There were an estimated 650,000 firearms turned by law abiding gun owners in Australia...for what?

Again, sure wish I could find the exact webpage I got the numbers from.


"Yes, murder rates increased after the ban,
they just didn't increase as fast."
(typical Brady language)


Figure #5 at the bottom of this page:
http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html

---------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia

"Knives are used up to 3 times as often as firearms in robberies."
(Australian Institute of Criminology)

*** "Some researchers have claimed a dramatic effect on firearm deaths, by counting the drop in firearm suicides and ignoring a corresponding rise in non-firearm suicides."
(HELLO? ANYBODY HOME?????????????!!!)
---------------------------------------------------------

ps: authors publicized in your link.......

Professor Simon Chapman = Coalition for Gun Control (Australia's equivalent of Brady)

Philip Alpers = leading New Zealand anti-gun lobbyist (faked college credentials, etc)

[depakid]

30. Here's the peer reviewed article from the British Medical Journal

Australia’s 1996 gun law reforms: faster falls in firearm deaths, firearm suicides, and a decade without mass shootings


Background: After a 1996 firearm massacre in Tasmania in which 35 people died, Australian governments united to remove semi-automatic and pump-action shotguns and rifles from civilian possession, as a key component of gun law reforms.

Objective: To determine whether Australia’s 1996 major gun law reforms were associated with changes in rates of mass firearm homicides, total firearm deaths, firearm homicides and firearm suicides, and whether there were any apparent method substitution effects for total homicides and suicides.

Design: Observational study using official statistics. Negative binomial regression analysis of changes in firearm death rates and comparison of trends in pre–post gun law reform firearm-related mass killings.

Setting: Australia, 1979–2003.

Main outcome measures: Changes in trends of total firearm death rates, mass fatal shooting incidents, rates of firearm homicide, suicide and unintentional firearm deaths, and of total homicides and suicides per 100 000 population.

Results: In the 18 years before the gun law reforms, there were 13 mass shootings in Australia, and none in the 10.5 years afterwards. Declines in firearm-related deaths before the law reforms accelerated after the reforms for total firearm deaths (p = 0.04), firearm suicides (p = 0.007) and firearm homicides (p = 0.15), but not for the smallest category of unintentional firearm deaths, which increased. No evidence of substitution effect for suicides or homicides was observed. The rates per 100 000 of total firearm deaths, firearm homicides and firearm suicides all at least doubled their existing rates of decline after the revised gun laws.

Conclusions: Australia’s 1996 gun law reforms were followed by more than a decade free of fatal mass shootings, and accelerated declines in firearm deaths, particularly suicides. Total homicide rates followed the same pattern. Removing large numbers of rapid-firing firearms from civilians may be an effective way of reducing mass shootings, firearm homicides and firearm suicides.

Full BMJ article: http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/12/6/365

[Tejas]

35. so, you cite the very same anti-gun zealots

that I exposed in post #26. At best, the mere fact that they would be quoted in a medical journal adds to the hilarity of their so-called "knowledge". One is trying to be the "Helmke" of Oz, the other is an outright fake, yet their names are prominently listed at the top.


At least the people that did this study did not attempt to hide their membership in pro-gun organizations, they also had actual Ausie officials agree.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/buyback-has-no-effect-on-murder-rate/2006/10/23/1161455665717.html


"Politicians had assumed tighter gun laws would cut off the supply of guns to would-be criminals and that homicide rates would fall as a result, the study said. But more than 90 per cent of firearms used to commit homicide were not registered, their users were not licensed and they had been unaffected by the firearms agreement.

The director of the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics, Dr Don Weatherburn, said he was not surprised by the study. He said it showed "politicians would be well advised to claim success of their policies after they were evaluated, not before"."

Imagine that! :sarcasm:


Keep in mind the one irrefutable fact: Take all of the guns away from the debate and people are still being murdered in Australia....just like in merry old England.

[depakid]

38. You haven't debunked jack- the article reflects what everyone pretty well knows

from their own experiences. The NRA and others can bluster on untul the cows come home- but that doesn't change the real life results- though it does reinforce American denialism. Frankly, the process seems to me a bit like the climate change "debate." Same sorts of tactics.

In addition- none of the bluster provides any support whatsoever for the notion that America's quasi-libertarian gun laws are in any way preferable to a safe, responsible and free society. Indeed, one all too often hears that more guns will make us safer!

That of course is hogwash- and I for one will be interested to see how Argentina impliments its policy, and whether, like Australia- they'll enjoy its benefits too.

[Tejas]

41. NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics is bunk? (um, yeah, okay, whatever)

[depakid]

42. Australia has a few gun proponents too- which OPINIONS you cited

Opinions aren't facts- nor are their specultions as to the bases of the trend lines.

If anything, what this points to is the need for even more effective efforts to get all the unregistered guns off of the streets.

Less guns- less homicides, suicides and gun related crime (like carjackings).

All in all -a safer society.

No amount of equivocation will change the empirical evidence or the essential logic.

Though of course- as I've said many times before- it's futile to talk sense into many (if not most) Americans about gun issues. It's a lost cause- and, apparently- a god given right that everyone there (and their children) will be living with the consequences of for years to come.

[Tejas]

45. and that debunks the NSW Bureau of Crime how?

[depakid]

54. You simply cited the opinion of their director

who I would bet would be the first to tell you that not only are most crime statistics stable or falling, but that they'd be significantly worse if there were greater access to firearms.

Crime's down, except for young drunks

Young drunks being assualtive- just the sort you'd want armed.

[ornotna]

56. From The Australian Institute of Criminology

A snip from the 2005-06 National Homicide Monitoring Program annual report.

"The overall trend in the incidence of homicide has remained stable over the 17-year period since the Australian Institute of Criminology began monitoring in 1989."

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/rpp/77/

[depakid]

29. What a bogus post

Typical American gun nut crap.

Just today, my girlfriend read me a story in the Sydney Morning Herald about the LA Times' "murder blog."

It's a pretty shocking notion to the Aussies- both that there would be such a thing- AND that there are over 1,100 murders in LA county (only 10% of which are reported) whereas Sydney averages 53.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/a-life-remembered--and-fiercely-debated--in-las-murder-blog/2007/12/28/1198778699750.html

Adjusted for population differences, and that's still less than 1/10th the murder rate.

Moreover, there hasn't been a single mass killing since Port Arthur in 1994- after which the Aussies wisely instituted their buyback program.

Contrast that with America, where one sees mass shootings them every couple of months.

The bottom line can't rationally be denied: Americans' pathological obsession with firearms has doomed them to an increasingly violent society- with by far the world's largest (and growing) prison system.

Unfortunately, as other posters on this thread have implied, there's nothing that can or will be done about it- so enjoy your nightly murder news, while we enjoy the safety and sensibility our handgun and assualt weapon free society.

[Tejas]

34. bogus, as in you ignoring reality

The below is not "Typical American gun nut crap". If you have a problem with it, I suggest you go edit Wiki to suit your own little fantasy.

"Knives are used up to 3 times as often as firearms in robberies."
(Australian Institute of Criminology)


"while we enjoy the safety and sensibility our handgun and assualt weapon free society"

Russia?

;)

[depakid]

37. The usual rationalizations

FACT as opposed to rationalization, strawmen and non-sequiturs is that even Australia's urban areas are MUCH safer than than most of America and that the homicide rates have dropped considerably- and have kept dropping since the decison (by an ostensibly right wing government) to get handguns, assualt weapons and pump action shotguns off the streets.

It's also a MUCH freer and more responsible society than America will probably ever be, despite 10 years of John Howard's attempts to make it otherwise.

If you'd ever spent any time here, you would know that.

Trouble with most of those obsessed with firearms is that they've never even held a passport, much less spent quality time abroad- so they blissfully (or not) continue on with their fantasy about living in the worlds "greatest" country- without ever looking to compare & contrast how other people live and solve the very problems that plague their nation.

[Tejas]

40. post was about Australia, not US, what next? (how typical)

[Didereaux]

17. Yay, proof positive the Nazis went to Argentina! I t worked well in Germany too.

[-..__...]

21. Sheeple.

I wonder how many of those would be worth importing into this country (they can't all be junk guns)?

[Tejas]

27. have you priced Russian wood for an AK lately?

Currently $250-300 for a stock, grip and handguards here in the US.

hmm, they have Craigslist in Argentina?

:) :) :) :)

[-..__...]

28. Not lately... but I have.

B-)

The red stain formula can be duplicated (with practice), but it's nothing like the real deal.

Check out the Tantal site... http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/default.html

Some really nice craftsmanship... almost too nice really.

[boilinmad]

31. Destroying ANY gun.....

......is a plus in my book....Guns fucking suck. period.

[slackmaster]

36. I'll wager that if pressed for details you would find some of them acceptable

Like the ones in the hands of the police.

[ohio2007]

32. beating guns into guitar riffs

A powerful ironic symbol of peace - Post Media Reply Marked as: Mature
Saturday, December 29, 2007

In Bogota, artist César Lopez created this Kalashnikov electric guitar. The idea came to him one day as he was looking at a soldier patrolling the street. (Report: P. Mariani, R. Langlois)


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=607_1198930398

[Judi Lynn]

33. Have read about this guy before, but never saw him until looking at your link. Thanks. n/t

[humbled_opinion]

39. hmmm we could learn something from the Argentinians.

[benEzra]

47. Certainly. Crash your economy, transfer everyone's life savings to rich bankers,

and then use the resulting uptick in suicide rates and poverty-related violence as a pretext to take away more civil liberties from the peons.

It does appear the neocons in this country are following that script...but I don't think it's an example we should be emulating.

[Judi Lynn]

43. DISARMAMENT-ARGENTINA: Gun Swap Takes Aim at Violence

DISARMAMENT-ARGENTINA: Gun Swap Takes Aim at Violence
By Marcela Valente

BUENOS AIRES, Jun 15 (IPS) - With strong support from peace and disarmament groups and the families of shooting victims, the Argentine government launched a programme Friday that encourages people to voluntarily swap their legal or illegal firearms for cash.

The disarmament campaign, similar to one that was carried out in Brazil in 2004, forms part of a comprehensive violence prevention policy, which includes stricter controls on both the legal and black market for guns.

In Argentina, one out of 10 people over the age of 18 say they have a gun, and more than half say they carry them around "for protection."

A study carried out this year by the Mora y Araujo polling firm found that as a result of the increase in violent crime in Argentina, more people now believe that it is a good idea to own or carry a gun for self-defence.

But official statistics show that between 1991 and 2004, the number of accidental firearm deaths rose 80 percent, and the number of suicides involving guns increased by 60 percent.

"Guns in homes do not provide protection, but instead increase the risk of accidents and deaths among civilians," Darío Kosovsky, a member of the Institute of Comparative Studies in Criminal and Social Sciences and the Argentine Disarmament Network (RAD), told IPS.

More:
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=38203

[Tejas]

44. "Guns in homes do not provide protection"

Wow.........just wow.

Kosovsky should expand his resume and go to work for the UN in Uganda. Not that he's want to get his hands dirty.....

[LanternWaste]

48. Well, as the bumper says,

Well, as the bumper says, "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will shoot their children" or something like that...

[Tejas]

50. We're the UN, we're here to help you

"When guns are outlawed, outlaws will shoot your children, and you, and your parents, and your....."


Oh wait, they do that already. Guess those that would outlaw guns just want to speed up the process.

[benEzra]

46. Ya think an economic crash *MIGHT* have had something to do with those numbers?

But official statistics show that between 1991 and 2004, the number of accidental firearm deaths rose 80 percent, and the number of suicides involving guns increased by 60 percent.

Between 1991 and 2004, Argentina experienced an enormous economic crash and economic depression, throwing hordes of middle-class workers into poverty, devaluing everyone's life savings to a third of their value, and causing the unemployment rate to skyrocket. Details, details...

Guns didn't become more available in Argentina; JOBS became LESS available. There's your suicide rate increase. Gun accidents are so rare that a small increase in absolute numbers can represent a large percentage swing, but it's not surprising that with the social upheavals they've experienced, less funds for gun training, and more people living on the edge, you'd have an uptick there as well.

[Tejas]

51. there you go again

trying to inject facts in the middle of a hate-session for inanimate objects. :sarcasm:


;)

[alcibiades_mystery]

49. FASCISM can only be next for Argentina!!!!!!

:sarcasm:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

52. Interesting that a country that has had REAL tyranny in the past 30 years

is less paranoid about guns than the U.S.? I'm not talking right-wing radio black helicopters "the United Nations wants to turn our children gay" type of paranoia. I'm talking about a country where the Argentine people WILLINGLY turned their government over to an "anti-terrorism" campaign that killed 30,000 people. This was while all sorts of gun ownership was legal. Innocent people were grabbed off the street in broad daylight, and instead of trying to free these innocents with their holy, sacred, and most precious guns, their fellow citizens looked the other way.

I've lived in Japan, which has also had real tyranny within living memory. Guns are pretty restricted, and it's true that only criminals have them. But even though I speak Japanese and have been traveling there for 30 years, I have NEVER ONCE heard a Japanese person say, either in person or in the media, "Gee, I wish we had guns here." Far from it. They think our gun violence is appalling.

I was a mod in the Gun Dungeon a few years ago, and since I no longer am, I feel free to say that my time there convinced me that a lot of gun fanatics are economically insecure, but are too macho to admit it, and so they project their fears of economic failure ('cuz real men are never afraid, right?)into a rabid insistence on owning lots of guns, even though guns won't solve their real problem, which is economic powerlessness.(Except for the people who are gun nuts because of sexual frustration or inadequacy or being an anger junkie.)

It's just not logical. I saw gun rights fanatics say that they'd vote Republican JUST on the gun issue, which means that the Second Amendment is the ONLY one they really believe in.

[Judi Lynn]

53. Great post! Thanks for pointing out that these people lived through a time

in which 30,000 people literally DISAPPEARED, after being tortured mercilessly, and then often flung out of airplanes into the ocean.

Young pregnant women suspected of being "leftists" (so scary, of course, to imagine "leftists" in a democratic society, isn't it?) were seized, taken to prison, tortured, kept alive until either they delivered their babies, or the babies were removed surgically, and the women chained together, driven to airports, and pushed out of planes over the water, with their children handed out to Argentinian military officers' families, like so many door prizes.

Those guns don't really do people any good when something as big as a government goes after the people themselves. It's significant that people who have lived through this crap are intersted in putting ALL thoughts of violence behind them.

Thank you for your observations on ownership, lack of economic security, etc. (One can't help but notice the people who are the most reactionary ARE always the ones struggling with money, etc., and not likely to get ahead of their personal problems: control issues among those with a keen lack of control.)

[Irreverend IX]

55. Statistics

Wikipedia says Argentina's estimated population is 40 million. BenEzra's posted story says that 1 in 10 Argentinians over the age of 18 own guns.

Let's say that Argentina has a very high population of young people, and that half of its population is under 18. I'm probably overestimating, but that's fine for the sake of this post. That means that there are 2 million Argentinian gun owners.

The story says 70,000 guns were turned in. That means that at most, 70,000 gun owners turned guns in, although there were probably many people who turned in more than one gun.

70,000 guns owners / 2,000,000 = 0.035

At most. 3.5% of Argentinian gun owners turned over a weapon. The actual percentage is probably lower, maybe 2.5% to 3%, due to people turning in more than one gun. Also, we have no way of knowing how many Argentinians turned in _all_ their guns. Many US gun owners will use gun "buy-backs" as an opportunity to turn in old, rusted junk guns that no longer work. Some buy-backs will even take BB guns.

So in summary, a very small number of gun-owning Argentinians, perhaps 1% to 1.5%, have volunteered to completely disarm themselves. The vast majority of the 1 in 20 Argentinians who carry concealed for self-defense according to BenEzra's story are still doing so.