Parts Manufacturer Negligent in Plane Crash That Killed Gov. Mel Carnahan

[demdave]

<edit on headline because AP gets paid by the word:evilgrin:>

KANSAS CITY, Mo. (AP) - A jury found an airplane parts manufacturer negligent in the 2000 plane crash that killed Gov. Mel Carnahan and his son, and awarded their family $4 million.
The Carnahan family's attorney argued that a pair of vacuum pumps made by Parker Hannifin Corp. failed, causing the plane to crash. Killed were pilot Randy Carnahan, his father and Chris Sifford, a longtime aide to the governor.

The jury awarded compensatory damages of $3 million for Mel Carnahan and $1 million for Randy Carnahan. The jury did not award any punitive damages.

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA7D650JPD.html

[Gman]

1. John Ashcroft Criminally Responsible

is what it should read.

[greekspeak]

2. "STILL with Mel"

The world would be a better place had Mel lived.

[JNelson6563]

3. yeah, sure that was it

either that or "icing". ;-)

Julie

[AndyTiedye]

4. Our Dem Candidates Should Support AMTRAK -- TAKE THE TRAIN - PLEASE!!

i don't mean to shout, but I am worried about the tendency of
planes to fall out of the sky when it is convenient for the regime.

[jobycom]

19. Problem is, Repubs can afford better pilots!

Or else they fly commercial or charter. Our guys keep getting in small planes with pilots who can't make the big time. Mickey Leland, Larkin Smith, Wellstone, Carnahan-- all small planes with small time pilots. I've seen some of the Texas Democrats and the planes they fly in. Republicans take enough bribes to fly better.

[Flightful]

5. What a crock- it was pilot error.

Hope this gets overturned on appeal, because the lawyer lied to the jury. According to the NTSB report the pumps were working just fine.

From the NTSB report at http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2002/AAB0202.htm

"The pilot indicated to ATC several times that he was having problems with the airplane's primary attitude indicator. He also told ATC that he was trying to use the right-side attitude indicator, which indicates that the airplane did not experience a total vacuum system failure. Examination of the wreckage revealed rotational marks in the left and right engine vacuum pumps, which indicates that they were most likely functioning at the time of impact. Further, one of the vacuum gage system failure indicator buttons exhibited evidence of having been in almost the fully retracted position (the other indicator button was found in the partially retracted position), which indicates that adequate vacuum existed for the airplane's instruments to operate.

"On the basis of the examination of the left-side (primary) attitude indicator, it was determined that the rotor was most likely spinning, but not at a high enough rpm to keep the display erect (the wreckage fragments of the left-side attitude indicator clearly aligned in an inverted attitude), indicating that this attitude indicator was not displaying properly at the time of impact. Although the pilot reported that his primary attitude indicator had failed and examination of the attitude indicator supported that such a failure had occurred, the investigation could not determine the cause of the failure in that instrument.

"On the basis of the examination of the right-side attitude indicator, it was determined that the rotor was spinning, the display was erect when the airplane made initial contact with the trees, and the attitude it displayed was consistent with the airplane's attitude when it struck the trees (as determined by an inspection of the accident site and a three-dimensional model of the airplane's flightpath through the trees), indicating that this attitude indicator was functioning properly until the time of impact.

"After first reporting that the primary attitude indicator was malfunctioning, the pilot continued flight for about 11 minutes, including two controlled heading changes, indicating that the pilot had functioning cockpit instruments and that he could control the airplane. Further, in the event that an instrument malfunction occurs, instrument flight rules (IFR)-qualified pilots are trained to use other relevant instruments, which evidence indicates were operating on the accident airplane (the right-side attitude indicator). Therefore, the loss of the primary attitude indicator alone does not explain why the pilot lost control of the airplane and crashed."

[mike1963]

16. There's not enough partial-panel training the last dozen or so years.

And also insufficient 'abnormal attitude' practice. I shudder to think how many 'pilots' (in quotes for a reason) have never even had spin recovery training. Losing control from an AH gyro failure should not happen. "Needle, Ball, Airspeed & compass", all of which are virtually
immume to failure, are sufficient in any kind of plane to allow a properly prepared pilot to keep the shiny side up and the pointy end forward. So even if the vac pumps did fail, it shouldn't have resulted in the disaster. I don't like to hear about 'pilot error', but sure have seen way too much of it.

[seventhson]

6. Not to be too repetitive but

sounds like it COULD have been affected by an EMP device like Wellstone's was IMHO.

[TheRock]

7. Tell me more

This is the first I've heard of such a device used. Do you have a reliable link to help prove this theory? Do we have such an EMP device to bring down political leaders at our whim? Where is this device located?

[fearnobush]

12. Electromagnetic pulse device suspected

<http://opednews.com/thoreau1203_wellstone_assassinated.htm> <http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthtribune/news/opinion/7306797.htm>

[TrogL]

14. Utter madness and stupidity

(grammar. I've worked a 16 hour shift - sue me)

We've already debunked this one. A pulse big enough to affect the airplane would have needed the output of Hoover dam to power it and would have blown up every TV set, cell phone for miles around.

[Minstrel Boy]

8. Carnahan crash EM radar anomaly?

I hesitate to post this because I'm not informed enough to say I know what I'm looking at, and I pulled it from a very "foily" site devoted to detecting EM radar anomalies, but this is archived EM radar the night of the Carnahan crash. What the hell is going on in Missouri?

[TrogL]

9. Aren't those the exact same pictures you used

on one of the Wellstone threads?

[Minstrel Boy]

11. Yup. But since is a Carnahan thread

I thought they might be appropriate here. Though as I said, I hesitated to post them, because I can make no claims about what they show.

[TrogL]

13. Wrong date

Carnahan, a Democrat, was killed Oct. 16, 2000,

Your pictures are for the 17th.

[Minstrel Boy]

15. In that case,

don't mind me. :dunce:

[TrogL]

10. How?

This is gonna be good!

[jobycom]

17. No, not if you read the whole report

It's pretty clear what happened, based on the controller transcripts and the radar data. In fact, I think your EMP thingie would be ruled out, since enough of his instrumentation was working for the pilot to comply to every instruction the controller gave for over ten minutes. He climbed, he turned, he headed in the proper directions, all the while commenting on the difficulty of having to look at the copilot's attitude indicator. It wasn't a case of unexplained sudden loss of control-- he had control. It would be really hard to work an EMP explanation into these facts.

[TrogL]

18. Not for these folks

[seventhson]

24. The way some others here have explained it

The MECHANICAL parts would continue to operate but the electric ( things like meters, guages, warning signals, spark plugs (?)) would be shutting off and on or shut down completely.

The most obvious sign is interference or failure of radio contact and guages or indicators --- which occurred here (instrument failure).

I do NOT know a lot about this crash.

I know that there was motive, opportunity and means to murder Carnahan which is the first step in assessing a murder (and I have worked on a number of murder cases as attorney/investigator).

I do NOT know how to rule OUT EMP in this crash but the indicator FAILURES seem consistent with an EMP theory.

I doubt anyone here has the credentials to disprove that.

But those who have discounted this theory here have said that a mechanical steering device would allow the plane to fly and have SOME control until it ran out of power and speed to stay aloft.

A PULSE MIGHT knock out some sensitive guages and not kill the whole system or --- it could cause a problem which STARTS the accident before a sustained targeted blast of energy knocking everything out just before the crash. A shorting out would be HARD to detect unless one searched carefully for it and I doubt this has been done because everyone keeps saying it isn't likely.

If it isn't likely then let's try to PROVE that and rule it out if possible.

Until it is definitively ruled out by experts it remains ONE possible explanation for the crashes and deaths of Carnahan as well as Wellstone. Dismiss it at your peril because if these WERE murders there MAY be more coming.

[panzerfaust]

23. I don't deny that ...

... there is a significant probability that Carnahan's plane was sabotaged and that he was deliberately murdered.

However, the EMP explanation is simply impossible. The flight-critical systems in the plane are simply too primitive to have been effected – it was not a fly-by-wire aircraft.

[seventhson]

20. I too want mnore info before ruling ANYTHING in or out

Fact is that the circumstances of Carnahan's crash were VERY similar politically to Wellstone's death. A few weeks before an election where the opponent was a staunch Bush supporter key to Bush's success,

Carnahan was going against Ashcroft and would have beat him (his wife won, and Ashcroft was appointed Attorney Heneral in a position to cover up any possible crime).

Targeted devices are in deveopment and use which do NOT require a broad range device and can be effective at substantiaL distances targeting a specific vehicle.

Unless someone here is an EMP expert, ruling out this as the cause of the instrument failures and the crash is way premature and imprudent.

If we do not examine the evidence we can NEVER be sure it was not an intentional assassination. Dismiss this idea at your peril.

Here is a link for more info on government EMP programs:

http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/sl298.txt


Political assassination was the trademark of the Busdh-type CIA and intelligence community. WHY is it so hard to believe they would not do it to one of their opponents here in the US?

I worry every day about our candidates and the BFEE. Dismissing the possibility of murder with little or no evidence or all of the facts is not responsible IMHO. Especially these days.

[seventhson]

21. excerpt from link

NIJ is seeking three different types of EM devices to be submitted to
Phase III testing. The first are electrostatic discharge (ESD)
devices, which produce a rapid, high-voltage transfer of charge
to a targeted vehicle upon direct physical contact with the vehicle.
The second type are non-nuclear, ultra-wide band electromagnetic pulse
(EMP) projected energy devices that radiate a solitary pulse of energy
omni-directionally through the atmosphere to a distant target vehicle. The
third type are high-power microwave (HPM) or radio frequency (RF)
projected energy devices that radiate continuous or repetitive-pulsed
energy directionally through the atmosphere to a distant targeted vehicle.


This RFP was for road vehicles. But the same technology is being developed for aircraft and may have already been in use. This is only the public tip of the iceberg on these things.

[TrogL]

25. Circular logic

You've been saying the Wellstone flight was suspicious because of the Carnahan crash. Now you're saying the Carnahan crash was suspicious because of the Wellstone crash.

You do not need to be an EMP expert to rule out EMP. EMP follows the laws of physics. The scenario you are proposing is impossible.

[seventhson]

27. Prove it

I think it is entirely plausible and even if it cannot be proved does NOT mean ANYONE should rule it out.

What are YOUR credentials to even say this?

UNLESS one has expertise on such devices (and can rule out some other sabotage) the possibility remains a rule-out scenario.

Pm;y pmr who has EMP or related training can IMHO rule this out - and then ity would need to be a CREDIBLE expert witness and not one with a conflict of interest.

[panzerfaust]

22. Understandable

"Justice was served today," said Mel Carnahan's widow, Jean Carnahan. "My son was found not responsible for the death of my husband."

That says it all – both about why the aviation industry is surely vanishing, and why people are so quick to sue aircraft manufacturers.

It is good that Jean Carnahan feels better: but the bitter truth is that her son's inadequate skills as a pilot did, in fact, cause her husband's death. Even had both vacuum pumps, and both attitude indicators failed, aircraft control could have been maintained by reference to the (usually) electrically powered turn and bank indicator.

Unless, sigh, the plane had been sabotaged so thoroughly that control was impossible - But no one would do that...

[bobthedrummer]

26. I'll never forget the infinite wisdom of the People of MO. who voted for

deceased Carnahan over Ashcroft!
Right on...