France Adds Beards to List of Taboo Religious Signs

[TacticalPeek]

France Adds Beards to List of Taboo Religious Signs
Tue January 20, 2004 05:26 PM ET
(Page 1 of 2)
By Tom Heneghan

PARIS (Reuters) - France's plan to bar religious symbols from state schools slid into
confusion Tuesday after the education minister said a proposed ban on Muslim veils
could also outlaw beards if they were judged to be a sign of faith.

Opposition politicians derided the government plan as misguided and some of
President Jacques Chirac's conservative allies said they would abstain or vote
against the law meant to stem growing Islamist influence among some of France's
five million Muslims.

In another sign of the political tangle the veil debate has caused, a senior French
official issued a rare public rebuke to Pope John Paul II for saying some politicians'
efforts to ban faith from the public sphere endangered religious freedom in Europe.

Education Minister Luc Ferry made the surprising statement about disciplining
bearded students in a National Assembly legal committee hearing about the draft
law on the ban due to be debated next month.


more

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=4171272

[non sociopath skin]

1. What you're seeing ...

is a rightist government's attempt to use twentieth century left of centre thinking on secularism for its own ends.

Scary!

The Skin

[Just Me]

25. That's just silly!!!!

They are merely coping with usual adjustments involved in secularism. This article is a cheap shot at France. Go figure!!!

[Flagg]

27. rightist gvt ?

our french right wing prime minister is more liberal than kucinich and dean combined.

Even our extreme right wing party ( Front national) is on the left of the Republican party.
Bush is some kind of neo nazi here.

French political spectrum is different than the American one.


And in French liberal is sinonym of laissez-faire capitalism.

[non sociopath skin]

73. Je vous en prie, camarade...

Yes, Flagg, the spectrum and the designation of Liberal are different, BUT
- I would disagree that Raffarin is to the left of Kuchinich or Dean. And other members of the government - Sarkozy, for example - would be very much at home on the right of American politics.
- Your statement about the Front National is incorrect. Much as I loathe the Bush administration, they are not anti-semitic like Le Pen, who is a bona fide fascist.

The Skin

[Flagg]

75. the neocons are faschists

and on economic issues the FN would be on the left of the Republicans
but they still suck big time

[BonjourUSA]

76. Salut mon pote

J'ai renoncé depuis longtemps à expliquer à nos charmants amis DUer ce qu'est la laïcité en France. Ils nous perçoivent comme d'affreux liberticides alors que notre liberté religieuse est bien plus grande que la leur. Mais c'est un paradoxe totalement incompréhensible pour eux.

Mais il est vrai que Ferry a dit une grosse connerie.

Un salut de Perpignan

[Flagg]

80. t'as raison

salut de Montpellier

[Just Me]

32. WHAT I AM SEEING IS INTENTIONAL MISCHARACTERIZATION!!!!

[Guaranteed]

2. This is weird as hell. nt

[7th_Sephiroth]

3. the french

want the muslims out of thier country

[non sociopath skin]

4. It's not quite as simple as that.

The French attitude to other cultures is straightforward.

So long as you're "francais" it doesn't matter if you're African, SE Asian or Middle Eastern - so long as you "buy" the French republican package. Speak French, dress French and have French aspirations and you're fine, regardless of colour or creed.

But start to look like "the enemy within" by wearing a veil or talking about the evils of colonialism and you've got problems...

The Skin

[regnaD kciN]

47. And this is different from us how?

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard someone complain about one or another ethnic group because "unlike all the others (by which I assume they mean the Irish and Italians in the 19th century - JDW) these people don't want to become real Americans...they want to keep their own language, culture, and identity, and thus force us to give them special rights"...I'd probably have enough money to be part of Chimpy's ideal demographic!

:eyes:

[non sociopath skin]

71. It's different...

only because the US Separation of Church and State was, I believe, there from the beginning whereas the secularization of French Education was seen as a considerable victory for left-wing rationalism back in 1905.

The Skin

[Sandpiper]

5. The French have always been...

Notoriously xenophobic. I think it's a pity that they're doing this, but I'm not all that surprised.

[Flagg]

7. xenophobic ?

That's rich coming from a country who lived under apartheid until the 1960's.

you want some freedom fries with that ?

[Sandpiper]

8. Remind me

Who was it that Ho Chi Minh was trying to kick out of Vietnam in the first place?

[Flagg]

11. The Americans ( and he succedeed)

58000 US soldiers dead

and 4 millions south east asians dead let alone thousands of babies born freak to these days due to the orange agent
you almost beat the nazis
I bet you're proud of it

congrats



Indochina was a colony and we left it in 54
Ho chi minh was fighting for independance and rightly so.
Maybe it would have been wiser not to go there in the first place




oh and btw 'Remind me'

what the flying fuck does this have to do with the French gvt banning conspicuous religious signs in schools ?

[Sandpiper]

15. Left in 1954?

I guess that's one to say it. Got violently overthrown would be closer to the mark though.

oh and btw 'Remind me'

what the flying fuck does this have to do with the French gvt banning conspicuous religious signs in schools ?

Precisely what yours had to do with the US practicing "apartheid."

France's hands aren't exactly clean when it comes to its dealings with the browned skinned peoples of the world, so spare me the self righteous tripe.

[Flagg]

22. well you said French people have always been xenophobic

which in itself is a xenophobic statement about French people

All I said was that was rich considering the treatment of black people in the US

oh but that's racism not xenophobia

sorry about that.


we could have continued the fight in Indochina but decided not to.
It was unwinnable as the US expenrienced it a few years later.

The US gvt should have emulated their French counterparts and thus spared themselves a lot of desillusion let alone a genocide

[Turley]

55. Actually I think it's Francophobic

[cprise]

26. The French had to leave

...in no small part because the U.S. government was staging terrorist attacks on civilians in the French strongholds of Vietnam.

This is a pissing match that isn't going to flatter the US.

[bobbieinok]

35. ???????????

NOT in 54

[bobbieinok]

33. The Senate Republican White Paper on VN 1968

stated that at the end of WWII, Ho Chi Minh asked America for help because France had released Japanese POWs from jail in Saigon to help the French regain their colony.

When America did not help, he turned to the Chinese communists.

This info blew me away when I read it in 68.

The French finally lost VN in their defeat in 1954 at Dien Bien Phu.

Nixon wanted the US to go in and help the French after this defeat, but Eisenhower said that as long as he was president no American soldiers were going to fight another land war in Asia.

(One of the reasons Ike won in 52 was that he promised to end the Korean war.)

[The Stranger]

13. Agreed.

Coming from a country that has blacklisted 5 million people based on a thought.

[non sociopath skin]

72. Xenophobic?

If we really must stereotype, more xenophobic than the Germans? Or the Swiss? Or the Brits?

The Skin

[Flagg]

6. More than 60% of French people back up this law

including muslims
and more importantly women.



Religion has no place in schools.
And god's only a theory

[Sandpiper]

9. Hmmm

And what percentage of French Muslims support this law?

While you're at it, you better take the wrecking ball to Notre Dame, I mean, an overt religious symbol like that has no place in a secular society, right?

[Flagg]

19. we'll see who's right in a few months

we're taking a step away from obscurantism .This 2004 France we're talking about here


meanwhile the US is debating wether to reinstate prayers in schools
and the resident is funded by fundamentalist christians and believe he's been chosen by God.

Maybe we're wrong? maybe not




a majority of French muslim girls don't wear the veil at all btw

And there aren't 5 millions muslims in France. There are 5 millions French citizens from Arab origin. A majority of them non believers like most French people

[IndianaGreen]

10. Religion has no place in public schools and public sector, however

an individual has the right to express their own religious views. Shall we ban the wearing of crosses next?

I think the French are as freaked out about Islam and Muslims as Americans are. We should not sacrifice our long-held beliefs on individual freedoms for the sake of political expediency.

It would be one thing altogether if young girls were forced to wear the veil, but if they do it of their own free will why should we interfere?

[Flagg]

14. the banning of big crosses is included in the law of course

French society is much more complex than you can imagine.

and a majority of muslim girls don't have a choice about wearing their veils.
In banlieues if a muslim girl is seen without a veil she's called a whore or a slut.
A girl was burnt alive last year.



We want to show to these girls that they have a choice. They can live their lives without fear.
At least in school.

[Sandpiper]

17. Again

Is this a law that 60% of French Muslims support, or this one of those "for your own good" white folks laws?

[Flagg]

24. dude you know nothing about French society

you demonstrate it with statements such as '' for you own good white'' folks

this is about religion not race



A lot of French arabs are christians and jewish

[Sandpiper]

28. How bout answering my question

Instead of side stepping it. Is this law supported by a majority of those of Arab descent, or mostly whites?

Looks like the US isn't the only place that suffers from "fear of a brown planet."

Yes, yes, I know, people of all colors are welcome in France...as long as they dress and act the way the white establishment wants them to.

[Flagg]

29. yes it is supported by a majority of those of Arab descent

As I explained twice in this thread. Maybe you should pay a little more attention

A majority of French arab citizens are non believers and are in favor of the law



And I have yet to hear about a western counrty whose establishment isn't white btw

[Sandpiper]

34. You said

More than 60% of French people back up this law

including muslims
and more importantly women.

All that this sounds like is that muslims and women are among the 60% of the people who support this law.

If you meant 60% of muslims or 60% of people of Arab descent, you should have said so.

If you're not being clear, don't get irrate with me about it.

[Flagg]

36. the moderate muslims (a majority) are for the law

the 'less moderate ones' are against it



Deeply religious people (including catholics and jewish )aren't pleased
this was to be expected

it's 2:00 am here

I'm a little tired

sorry



try this site
French news in english

http://www.ttc.org/


I have nothing aginst you btw but for some reasons I can't possibly fathom you started talking about ho chi minh
so I got kinda carried away

[Sandpiper]

37. No problem

Sorry about the flame war. Just got a little carried away myself.

[PsychoDad]

41. Could you show me the link/poll/report

That moderate muslims support the forced loss of their beards or the forced removal of the hijab?

Just wondering.

[Turley]

58. You're wrong on both counts

see post below.

[Just Me]

31. How's about you stop turning a secular issue into a brawl!!!!

Which it appears you are looking to create.

This isn't about race or discrimination. This particular rather normal bump is about secularism.

[Turley]

56. You seem a bit misinformed yourself

Most estimates put the number of French Muslims at 4.2Mn which constitutes the vast majority of its 5Mn Arab descendants. Some Social Scientists say the number could actually be considerably higher and certainly on the rise.

Also, a survey sponsored by the French Gov't (who obviously has a dog in this fight) found only 44% of French Muslims support the ban. Likewise 60% support from the overall population is not exactly a massive majority. The hijab ban remains a very divisive issue, contrary to your efforts to characterize it as cut and dried.

[Flagg]

59. Link ?

[Turley]

63. Google yourself silly

BTW the Le Parisian poll put Muslim support at 39%.

If that's a majority I'm Jerry Lewis.

[Flagg]

64. Jerry Lewis

another cliché


you guys are helpless

enjoy 4 more more years of BUSH
I think some of you really need it
good 'ol marshal law

[Turley]

65. 1,2,3,4,5

1) I'm not particularly helpless, thanks

2) I live in Europe, not the U.S.

3)For someone who apparently lives in France you don't seem to have much informed insight on what's going on there.

4) Having perused your input to this thread it seems you haven't proven anything to anyone other than that you seem woefully ill-informed about your home market and that you prefer resorting to petty insults or changing the subject when pressed on an issue.

5) If you make such authoritative statements without having checked any facts you can generally expect to be called on it around here.

[Flagg]

66. Take a stroll in some french banlieues

and then we'll talk



meanwhile
go to http://www.fuckfrance.com and bash away

[Turley]

67. Well you've confirmed

that you're not interested in discussing this issue in an intelligent, adult manner.

I have no clue why you want me to visit some France-bashing site. And even if I had an interest I doubt if I'd go there since my employer, the largest bank in France, might be snooping around my P.C.

[PsychoDad]

42. They can live their lives without fear

As long as they accept the state's censure and don't attempt to wear the Hijab.

[PsychoDad]

54. This law isn't going to do that...

"We want to show to these girls that they have a choice. They can live their lives without fear.
At least in school."

The people who do terrible things like this to the girls are not going to stop because of this law. I also assume you have private madrassa's in France? If so, then the parents who wish to require their children to wear Hijab will pull them out of public school and place them in a private Islamic school, or Madrassa. This will only serve to further alienate the child (and family) from mainstream French society.

[Flagg]

60. There are no madrassas in France

there's only one Islamic high school

12 students in it

[cprise]

18. It's not expediency, it's reciprocity

The government is taking a materially trivial item like a scarf, or the length of one's beard and saying: OK, Christians here have taken off their rough edges, and here's what can you do to fit in.

The French have a distinct culture, and they even have assimilation programs to ensure that immigrants will overlap significantly with that culture. After they go through the process, they can decide whether or not they can meet that overlap; very many will be glad to do so, knowing they need only meet a moderate amount of criteria to have a good chance of fitting in.

I'm not saying this is great, but I think it has a very definite positive side.

[GinaMaria]

74. Similar state funded programs for visitors as well

People who will be living or working in France for an extended period, go through classes as well. I have a relative who went through it. They held her back several times and wouldn't let her progress to the next level because her French accent wasn't good enough. From what I understand the French are fiercly protective of their culture.

I've been lucky enough to visit 3 times (Paris and Nice). I've loved every minute of it. I've only experienced rudness once. I found the French people extremely compassionate and friendly. I'm curious to see how this will all work out.

[Mudcat]

44. "Religion has no place in public schools" - I disagree!

I think ignorance about the religious beliefs of others causes too much strife in the world, and in this country. If the goal of public education is an educated populace capable of intelligently considering the issues of the day and voting according to the best of their reason, then it behooves us to teach the next generation about the world's influential religons, and what better venue to convey this knowledge than in our schools? When the topic of religion is approached objectively and with cultural sensitivity, then I very much believe that religion has a place in our schools... whereas I cannot fathom the desire to inflict intentional ignorance of this important subject upon our society.

[cprise]

12. What they don't want is religious absolutism

What happens when a country becomes host to fundamentalists? Look at the USA: Public schools have almost zero authority over the behavior and dress of their students. On one side you have the "Left" demanding civil treatment of students almost to a fault, and on the Right any discussion or promotion of values in a secular context is met with accusations of "secular humanist brainwashing!" The result is a zoo that is crumbling.

Europeans will make comfortable room for only one kind of religion: the liberal kind that can reconcile itself with modernity. It goes along with their idea of culture and civil society. A certain kind of conformity is required of people living in France, and they are out to make sure that Muslims are aware they are no exception. They even have government programs to ASSIMILATE immigrants.

The French require modernity, and reciprocity in their backyards because they don't want to fall into the same trap the US and the UK have fallen into. You may think this is good or bad. I think its pragmatic, and there is an upside: French Muslims know just what they need to do to reasonably fit in.

There won't be any Osama imitators (or other dire Muslim traditionalists) decorating the halls of public institutions in France.

[Jacobin]

16. I'm a Francophile, but I do have a full beard on my atheistic face.

What gives?

Wasn't being clean shaven once a sign of some sect?

They need to cool their jets a bit on this.

[varun]

20. The French have also banned...

..the Sikh turbans from their schools recently...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/428124.cms

"...The law, which will be put to the French Parliament next month and take effect later this year, makes it illegal to wear Sikh turbans, Muslim hijabs or Jewish yarmulkes to school. Outsize crucifixes are a no-no as well..."

[PsychoDad]

53. Outsize crucifixes are a no-no as well

But they will still allow small ones? How about small yarmulkes or hijabs if that's the case... Or or christian symbols less threating the the French state than symbols of Judaism or Islam?

"...The law, which will be put to the French Parliament next month and take effect later this year, makes it illegal to wear Sikh turbans, Muslim hijabs or Jewish yarmulkes to school. "

This is just sad. This law will create more devision.

[htuttle]

21. Beards?

I guess the French have never really been beard-wearers, now that I think of it. I'm trying to think of a famous Frenchman with a beard, and I can't think of one (not since the goatees of the Renaissance, in any case).

[Just Me]

23. They seek to separate "religion" from the school system,...

,...and are simply having some difficulties in dealing with the issue of religious attire.

Personally, I don't see the big deal. Every integrated secular society has to rustle with these kinds of issues.

To turn this into some kind of crisis-level biggotry is just silly.

[thebigidea]

30. once again, satire beaten to the punch by reality

I was just putting the finishing touches on a faux 50s style educational film about terrorists and their ferocious beards: symbols of TERRA!

[PsychoDad]

43. Reality can be so much stranger than fiction

We live in some very strange times....

[Adapter44]

38. Americans have NO room to complain here

Some US public schools force people to shave all facial hair (Taliban anyone?). Looks like France and the US are in the same bed on this one.

[LifeDuringWartime]

39. TERRORISTS, I tell you!@

[PsychoDad]

40. I think this was predicted...

By Ductape Fatwa. He/She was right on the money.. :)

[DuctapeFatwa]

46. LOL What I actually predicted was that the debate would be very different

if they tried to ban beards.

I didn't think they would do it, I am surprised, but my prediction about the debate is fulfilled.

Just compare this thread to the various headscarf threads we have seen over the last few weeks.

All those passionate defenders of France's right to protect itself from dangerous Muslim girls with scarves on seem to have faded into the woodwork.

I await with lively pleasure the response of the Muslim and Orthodox Jewish men of France.

:evilgrin:

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. You and me both

France should be ashamed.

[PsychoDad]

52. True enough...

The debate has shifted from the state dictating what a woman may wear on her head to now include the state dictating what a man may wear on his face.

Still a question of personal expression.

Wonder if pictures of women in scarves or pictures of men in beards will be purged, so as to not undermine France's secular security ....

[Spentastic]

57. We've not all gone

I applaud the French's determination to ensure that their public institutions ares free from religion. I see nothing inherently wrong in applying a law that prohibts the open display of all religion within state premises. This debate seems like a logical step to me.

The main difference I see with this "possible" amendment is that you can't put a beard back on once you've shaved it off. If anything all the protestations about picking on Muslim women seem to be rendered moot by this possibility. The French if anything are picking on everyone.

[PartyPooper]

45. I wonder what Wolf Blitzer has to say about this?

Not that he would even care what the French thought about him or anyone else with a beard.

But, I think back 35 years ago...when a beard on an American guy meant "radical" or "subservise", or, worse..."communist!"

Gee, how times have changed. How times have stayed the same.

:dunce:

[user]

70. what would he say ?

bull shitzer would say what ever the US goverment told him to say.as long as it made the piglet from crawford look good

[Dr Fate]

48. I've never trusted "the beards" either...

well, except for the Beach Boys...

[waywest]

49. And REGULAR haircuts, too.

Not those wussy "styles" or any long hair and that. It's about time we make some order in this crazy world.




signed, Joe the barber

[GoddessOfGuinness]

50. The new face of terrorism

[BonjourUSA]

61. Don't care ! It's only a little bullshit of our Education Minister.

0, 0000000000001% ;) of the French boys wear a bear, just because that's not fashionable.

Recalls :

Only 10% of the French muslim youth practices its religion (between 7% and 8% for all the French population).

More than 65% of the French muslim girls want all visible religious symbols to be banned in the schools (43% want a law for that).


Since 1905, the religions and the state are strictly separated in France. If Chirac would say "God bless France", French people would very massively demonstrate in the streets, all religions together !

[Spentastic]

62. It's funny

People in a country with a religious fruit loop in charge propelling the whole world towards a precipice partly based on his own spiritual sense having a pop at those trying to avoid religion intruding into state business.

[CRK7376]

68. Stupid Frogs...

I'm not a beard guy but I sure would grow one if I were French...

[cprise]

69. It's attitudes like that

...which make people like Ashcroft and Bush seem cool in the country.

Ooooh, what a bad-boy!

[Voice_of_Europe]

79. Wear a beard and a Turban in your own country..

And see what happens when people start to mistake you for some middle eastern man...

[GreenArrow]

77. Boo for France

Liberty, eqaulity, fraternity. This is so wrong, on every human level. The worst kind of reactionary stupidity.

[Aunt Eunice]

78. This is just..

..plain silly