Bikers rally in Berkeley to support Marines

[AlphaCentauri]

Source: The Associated Press

BERKELEY, Calif.—Organizers of a weekend pro-military protest in Berkeley say they want the city to know how much a boycott in support of a contentious Marine recruiting station is costing.
Hundreds of leather-clad bikers rolled into town on Saturday to rally behind the Marines, whose downtown office has long been targeted by anti-war demonstrators.


Read more: http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_8670768

---

Anyone remember when a biker was a symbol of rebelion not that a sheep.

[jgraz]

1. Well, the one with his bike done up in Nazi regalia may not have been a sheep

Asshole parked right in front of us while we were sitting at a cafe yesterday. His tailpipes were in the classic SS shape with swastikas etched into them. Looked like a pretty expensive job.

[Ian David]

18. Did you take photos? n/t

[jgraz]

46. No - I keep forgetting that my phone has a camera

[melm00se]

2. Eagles UP

is motorcycle club composed of a lot of veterans (as are many motorcycle clubs).

[The Wizard]

14. The name of Hitler's retreat

was The Eagles Nest.
They are the Ku Klux Klan operating with the blessing of the Bush cartel. They are also known as the Gathering of (Kl)eagles.

[guitar man]

135. they're hardly a motorcycle club

In a motorcycle club, you have to be asked by a member to prospect and earn your colors (patch set) and it's not easy. These guys would sell a patch to a stray dog if it coughed up the dough. They look like a bunch of fair weather wannabes to me looking for an excuse to dress up like bikers and make irritating noises, and I don't mean the noise the bikes make, I'm talking about the noise that comes out of their disgusting yaps..:eyes:

[AwareOne]

3. Bikers, in their overzealous quest to "support the troops"

are turning into the Brownshirts of the Republican party. This is becoming a movement nation wide, bikers rallying in support of the war and war monuments, recruiting office in this case. This is going to get ugly. If the pattern follows that of Nazi Germany, the Bikers will soon cause death and riots, the police will do the minimum to stop it, a few will be arrested and given slap on the hand type sentences. It is the state sending you the message that the unpopular policies will continue with or without the support of the people. Shock and awe are coming to a neighborhood near you!

[melm00se]

5. and you base this upon what?

I, and most of the motorcyclists that I know, are extremely politically aware, active and not shy about exercising our free speech rights...because you don't agree with who and where they support, you call them Brownshirts?

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. I have been at several marches and rallies against the war

that were literally invaded by pro-war, supposedly pro-troops bikers. Huge groups of bikers who revved their engines and did their darndest to intimidate us and silence our voices. They disrupted a prayer service at Camp Casey. It was revolting.

I realize not all bikers behave this way. I have friends who are bikers who are repulsed by this type of behavior. But it does happen. So I can understand the negative image some progressives may have of bikers.

[struggle4progress]

64. If it quacks like a Nazi:

"Eagles Up and other organizations/movements are taking aim this month at groups of criminals, malcontents, traitors, seditionists, in the world of ANSWER, CODE PINK, IVAW, MOVEON.ORG, WINTER SOLDIER TESTIMONY, ISLAMIC RADICALS, and other elements with goals of America’s destruction" <said warmonger Melanie Morgan in 2007>

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Eagles_Up

[orleans]

96. because you don't agree with who and where they support, you call them Brownshirts?

yes. this blind following of bush. this sheep-like, zombie trance so many of them do to promote the war.

those that behave that way: yes. brownshirts.

and i agree with the sentiment that back in the day bikers used to be rebellious. not a bunch of fucking sheep.

if they like the war so damn much why the fuck aren't they fighting in it? if they're veterans--they should go back! who is making them retire? go. get off your freaking bike and get over to the middle east. pronto!

btw--i never knew a hard ass biker who referred to himself as a "motorcyclist"

[lonestarnot]

118. I am in agreement! First hand experience.

[Yael]

6. What on earth is this blather about?

Bikers are going to kick off armageddon?

:wtf:

[gratuitous]

10. I see exactly what you're saying

And when the police arrest the bikers like they arrest the Seriously Pissed Off Grannies, then I'll think our nation is heading back towards the right track. Shame those Marines are such pussies that they need the bikers to defend them, but since we're only spending a billion dollars a day on the defense budget, you can see how we're just not going to get anyone good signing up. I mean, not like the Iraqi insurgents or Al Qaeda.

[Mountainman]

13. Wow, what an awesome imagination you have!

[lonestarnot]

119. Not! Truth. Every word!

[khaos]

15. yep.. many groups are starting to fill this role

[Ian David]

19. Not all, but SOME bikers, perhaps. n/t

[lonestarnot]

120. Many.

[Lex Talionis]

102. From one Biker to one who is not,

So you base your opinion on what? DU? The MSM? How many real Bikers do you know? Not RUBs or weekend riders, but those like me who ride every day and live the life.

FYI, I get pulled over more than I should by the law, just to check my papers and such, cause of the way I look and type of scooter I ride. The Government doesn't like us because we DON'T toe the line. Check out the RICO act and who its used against. Yea they rally in support of all you said, just like you rally in support of code pink and such. Its what makes this country what it is.

[lonestarnot]

121. I don't know many, but can attest to what I have seen here in AZ and it ain't pretty.

:puke:

[Lex Talionis]

127. Well, from what I've seen coming from some liberals here,

I can understand when you say it ain't pretty. Most of us who are the real deal, live by a certain code. Yea, it's a rough one and a lot of it has to do with respect. There are also some who are just thugs and riffraff. Every social circle has them.

The real deals, don't prey on the weak, show disrespect to their elders, help those who need it and above all we don't trust the Government, no matter who's in charge. Its a dieing life style taken over by yuppies, wannabes, and a Government that thinks if 3 or more bikes are together, its a gang.

[lonestarnot]

134. Similar to what has happened to "real cowboys."

[lonestarnot]

117. Becoming?!!!! I, along with another friend from a group of protestors in Tempe,

faced a few down in 2001. We used their revving harley (vibrating noise makers) to attract attention to our signs as traffic passed. Thought they were going to find out that we may be for peace but neither of us are pacifists!

[KingOfLostSouls]

4. Not all bikers are bad

not everyone is a "1%er" heres a good article from famous bike builder jesse james

HOLLYWOOD - Hollywood star Sandra Bullock's husband Jesse James has launched a scathing verbal attack on President George W Bush, calling the leader "a d**khead."

The motorcycle maker visited soldiers outside Baghdad, Iraq--and is convinced the majority of the U.S. military agree with him.

James says, "Everyone in Iraq knows Bush is a d**khead. He's the boss' kid.

"Everybody I know who has a successful business who has a kid--the kid is always a f**khead. Have you ever noticed that?"

http://www.hollywood.com/news/Bullocks_Husband_in_Bush_Rant/3546662



while theres a lot of right wingers like the angels, theres also other clubs and riders who aren't affiliated who don't like bush or anything. so hopefully we don't start lumping all people who ride in with them.

that said, do we really need stuff to distract us from the Iraq war by having the same old factions re-fighting vietnam?

[INDIA]

7. Good for them. Targeting a Marine OSO office is incredibly stupid.

Sometimes I think portions of the "anti-war" crowd have to be on the take from RWingers. No rational person could possibly think that some of their behavior is actually bringing about an end to this war. To end the war, you have to motivate more than the most progressive 10%. You need the rest of the country as well.

The Marines need good, qualified, educated officers.
The more competent and educated our military members are, the less "Abu Ghraib" type incidents we'll have.

[Trajan]

8. Hear Hear ...

I always thought it was misdirected action to target recruiters when we get pissed at the commander in chief ....

It isn't the recruiters who create bad policy .... It is the assholes PARTY in power that creates policy ...

If anything: They should close the GOP offices ....

Say what you want about the military: I can assure you that many soldiers think George W. Bush is a dangerous numbskull of the first order ..... as do many of the generals and staff ....

It isn't their fault ....

[Crowman1979]

9. It is pointless to persuade former military veterans to join the peace movement...

...when they do pointless protests at places which the general public supports. They definitely need to protest the GOP offices, neo-con speaking engagements, etc. to attack the source of these destructive defense policies. Now here is a good place they should definitely have a big protest in front of:

http://www.timmonsdesigneng.com/masterplanning.html

[INDIA]

11. Bingo.

It's pretty obvious to me that some (not all) members of the peace movement are just flat out anti-military. They don't give two shits about the troops. I've seen posters right here on DU call Marines "war criminals" and "murderers", and then a couple weeks later on another thread claim they care about bringing them home so they'll be safe. Bullshit. Americans tend to be pretty proud of their military, which has basically saved the world twice in the last century. I really respect the IVAW, and I'm a big fan of what they do, but I honestly don't know how they put up with some of the bigoted anti-military bullshit you see at peace rallies.

I had it out with a Code Pink member a couple weeks ago who didn't even know what an OSO office was, much less what she was protesting about. Both sides of the political spectrum can be ignorant apparently.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2856164

[Proletariatprincess]

17. I guess I am one of those flat out anti military types...

I don't believe we should have a standing army. George Washington didn't either. There are indeed war criminals and murderers in the ranks of the military...there are also fine young people who have suffered terribly to protect the greed and criminality of multinational corporations. They joined the military out of economic necessity or what they think is patriotism. I don't trust patriotism or those who espouse it:
"Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy." -George Bernard Shaw
= Patriotism is a superstition, one far more injurious, brutal and inhumane than religion." -Gustave Herve
= "Patriotism - the virtue of the vicious." -Oscar Wilde
= "Patriotism is a survival from barbarous times which must not only be evoked and educated but which must be eradicated by all means - by preaching, persuasion, contempt and ridicule." -Leo Tolstoy
= "You'll never have a quiet world until you knock the patriotism out of the human race." -George Bernard Shaw

I think you use the term bigoted rather loosely here...not all of us are proud of what the military has done in our name. Do you think that the USA saved the world twice in this century all by itself?
War is always fought for power and greed and plunder.....even the so called just wars.
The military scares me. It trains people to be killers and then releases them on the society when they have served their purpose. Think about how many heinous crimes are committed by former military men...especially Marines. They guarded against that danger even in ancient Rome when soldiers where settled in the colonies they conquered. So it goes with Empires....
You scare me too, India 3. People with your point of view often resort to violence against those with my point of view. Doesn't mean your correct, but it is a hell of a good way to win and argument.

[INDIA]

24. "Think about how many heinous crimes are committed by former military men...especially Marines."

FAR FAR less crimes are committed by Marines and ex-Marines than the population they recruit from at large (mid to low income young men.) As a general rule, young men who join the military learn discipline, hard work, and teamwork. Something the inner city or the trailer park doesn't tend to teach. The military is generally beneficial to it's members. For every high profile crime carried out by a member of the military, there are 10,000 "non newsworthy" stories about people who joined up and improved their lives. And most Marines are very proud of their service and experience. Do you know any Marines or ex Marines? They're easy to spot because they're often covered head to toe in Marine Corps schlock (hats, tshirts, bumper stickers etc.)

What your espousing is ignorant. Marines are held to a higher standard (and rightly so), so when they commit crimes, it's news. It's the same way with public officials and police officers. Of course there are SOME murderers/rapists/criminals within the ranks of the military. It's a massive organization with (I think) around 3 or 4 million active duty members. I could just as easily say (and with much stronger statistical backing) that young black men are murderers and drug dealers. But that would be bigoted and ignorant yes? Of course it is. So why is THAT wrong to say but it's okay for you to claim Marines are criminals?

Oh that's right, the military tends to lean conservative. I guess it's okay to smear an entire group of people with fallacious ignorant crap because they vote differently than you do. :puke:

[stanwyck]

44. OK. Guess my family really needs to be on our guard

this weekend when our son is home for a few days leave. He's a Marine with 3 tours. He's also a liberal who voted for Kerry and is now supporting Obama. Apparently he is also a psychopath capable of committing heinous crimes.
We'll be extra careful.

[Herman74]

79. Excellent Post. Some other Quotations on Patriotism can be mentioned too...

Before getting to these, let me thank you, Proletariat Princess, for your thoughtful, courageous essay. Far too many people give soldiers some sort of exalted status. The pawns of Bush's war fighting on Bush's behalf are no heroes, heroes are people like Lt. Ehren Watada, who refused to fight in Iraq. As Buffy St. Marie has noted, The Universal Soldier "really is to blame."

Okay, on to other quotes about patriotism. Of course, there's the classic one by Samuel Johnson: "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." Then there are the quotes by two particular Nobel Laureates:

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." -- Albert Einstein

“This is the ugliest side of patriotism. For in small minds, patriotism dissociates itself from the higher ideal of humanity. It becomes the magnification of self, on a stupendous scale -- magnifying our vulgarity, cruelty, greed; dethroning God, to put up this bloated self in its place.” -- Rabindranath Tagore

“Patriotism cannot be our final spiritual shelter; my refuge is humanity. I will not buy glass for the price of diamonds, and I will never allow patriotism to triumph over humanity as long as I live.” -- Rabindranath Tagore

[Proletariatprincess]

95. Thank you, Herman74

for the additional quotes on Nationalism and patriotism. I have saved them in my files.

[tidy_bowl]

138. It must be really sad....

.... to be you and show such visceral hatred that you do. Sigh, I feel really sorry for you. Please educate yourself on the real services that our military has performed over the years and not just the outrageous fantasies you harbor.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. As long as we have Mai Lais and Hadithas,

that "war criminal" label will be accurate.

Did you watch any of the Winter Soldier testimony? http://ivaw.org/ Soldiers told of watching other soldiers defecate in MRE containers and then handing them to hungry Iraqi children. They talked about calling Iraqis "sand niggers". One told of an Iraqi man who did not speak English being shot by an American soldier for not following an order given in English. They spoke of breaking down doors and storming into Iraqi homes, only to discover they had the wrong address. And they spoke of the torture of detainees at Gittmo.

As long as this shit continues, US troops will be called war criminals. And not just here on DU, but all over the world.

You bet we in the anti-war movement want our troops to come home. We want them safe AND the Iraqi people left alone. NOT IN MY NAME is more than a catchy slogan.

[INDIA]

27. Tell me how you feel about this comment. "As long as we have the murder/crime rate in New Orleans..

Baltimore, D.C. and Detroit, the criminal label attributed to black men will be accurate."

That's a pretty disgusting comment yes? It's ignorant and bigoted. How is it any different than the trash you just posted? I fail to see the difference.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Your example is gross hyperbole

Watch the Winter Soldier tapes. That is, if you really want to understand the determination to bring our troops home.

[INDIA]

34. Nice dodge. You don't have a response do you? Other than saying it's hyperbole.

It seems to me that focusing on the relatively low number of crimes carried out by military members, and labeling millions of servicemen as "war criminals", THAT'S hyperbole, dontcha think?

I could just as easily tell you to watch "The First 48" on A&E, "Cops" or "Locked Up" to prove my disgusting, racist, ignorant point that black men are murderers and criminals.

But that would be disgusting and ignorant yes? I'd rather not sink to your level. :hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. It's a ridiculous analogy

Not all people committing crimes on any of those TV shows are African American. Not all people committing crimes in New Orleans are African American.

So your analogy is ridiculous and inflammatory.

And I would suggest you watch the Winter Soldier testimonies before you continue to defend the military recruiters.

[INDIA]

80. It's a perfectly fine analogy, and you know it. I'm obviously making you feel...

uncomfortable by forcing you to face your own bigotry toward a segment of the population that you don't like or understand. People in the military are (for the most part) perfectly decent, hard working Americans. They are also our family members and friends.

I've already won this argument. Pointless to go on. Hopefully you'll do a little soul searching and realize that prejudice isn't limited to racial minorities.

[tuckessee]

90. Your analogy is pure bullshit.

All current US military personell are VOLUNTEERS.

No black man, currently or historically, in New Orelans or elsewhere, is black by choice

[INDIA]

92. There's no difference between the two groups with regards to the point I'm making.

Both are groups made up of overall good people. Both groups have small minorities doing bad things, which their detractors highlight to smear the entire population with. Proud2Blib labels the troops as "war criminals" because of the actions of a few. Racist bigot Freepers smear African Americans with out of context statistics to label blacks as criminals. It's the same damn thing.

Whether you are born into a group or join it later on doesn't make any difference as far as my argument is concerned. But if it makes you feel better....



We have freedom of religion in the United States right? You can choose to follow a religion as easily as you can pick a career path. Here's an article that helps me label (smear) muslims as anti-semitic violent criminals. (I won't even start with the media coverage that labels all muslims as terrorists.)

"Oriah Ohana, a 25-year-old Israeli rabbi from Kfar Chabad, was attacked by a group of Arab men in Brooklyn, New York City, Tuesday evening.

An 18-year-old Arab man grabbed the yarmulka (kippa) off Rabbi Ohana’s head at the 4th Avenue and 9th Street train station in the Park Slope section of Brooklyn, while his friends kicked and punched the victim and screamed "Allahu Akbar" ."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125633


How about (illegal) immigrants? They obviously chose to come to the United States right? They weren't BORN undocumented and living in the US. The vast majority of them are decent hardworking, law abiding people trying to make a better life for their family either here or back in the home country. Yet I can label (smear) them as gang members and murderers by highlighting the heinous actions of a few within the undocumented population...let me use a Repuke sight (world net daily) to prove my point about how the right wing smears this population with fear mongering bullshit. There are millions of immigrants in the US, obviously some of them are going to commit crimes, just like US citizens.

"Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens, according to statistics released by Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa. If those numbers are correct, it translates to 4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens. That's 21,900 since Sept. 11, 2001."




http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103


So there you go, that's my point. Just like the racist RWingers smear entire populations of immigrants, blacks, and muslims by highlighting the heinous actions of a few, the anti-military crowd is smearing Marines.

It's the SAME DAMN THING. It's disgusting whether it comes from the right OR the left. That's all I'm saying...

[TooBigaTent]

42. VOLUNTARY Military enlistment is NOT an innate category like race or gender.

It does not deserve "protected" status consideration.

They chose to become part of the war machine and are painted with the results of that action.

[INDIA]

45. My argument had nothing to do with which group has "protected" status.

It's simply comparing ignorant broad brush smears against entire populations of people based on the actions of a few.

But just to throw a wrench in your argument, religion is considered a protected class as well, and people are free to choose whatever religion they want in this country, just as they are free to choose their career path.

[TooBigaTent]

51. And religion should NOT be a protected status, IMO. To address your objection,

the purpose of the military is to exert violent control over another. Period.

[INDIA]

58. "religion should NOT be a protected status" LOL!

I mean really...you can't be serious. Isn't it past your bedtime? I think mom needs the computer to check her e-mail.

[TooBigaTent]

62. IMO, ONLY innate characteristics over which the individual has no control should

be protected statuses. Religion is a choice. As is political affiliation.

Do you think that there should be a "balance" of Dems and Repukes on university faculties?

How about something evidently close to your heart - should there be a "quota" of military veterans in every occupation?

What about ex-cons?

Where do you draw the line, and on what criteria?

[INDIA]

75. FYI, many government agencies already award points to ex-military guys

looking for jobs, much in the same way affirmative action awards points to minorities. Both actions have been upheld in by the Supreme Court, with the reservation that military service or race can't be the "deciding" factor, only a beneficial factor to be weighed among many others employers or colleges look for.

And as far as political affiliation. No, I don't think there should be an artificial balance imposed on universities. But I also wouldn't want a professor to be hired/not hired based on their political beliefs, whether they be communist, conservative, progressive, fascist, whatever...

[orleans]

98. how is your kid doing? was he in the middle east? will he be home

for good or does he have to go back?

i'm really happy for you that he's coming home soon. (and happy for him as well)

[0007]

83. Could you expand a little bit on that statement?

Sounds interesting. NOT

[TooBigaTent]

41. Your support of the war is showing. Those who pull the trigger are as guilty

as those who issue the orders. Neither deserve respect.

[winter999]

112. Does your viewpoint apply to our domestic police force, too?

[FightTheRight89]

130. So let's hang the entire army!

Hoo-rah!

...

Wait, that's insane. Never mind.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. IVAW is growing

and VVAW is still very active. There is also Vets for Peace. Many members of each of those groups post right here on DU.

So I would argue that it is certainly NOT pointless to persuade veterans to join the peace movement.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. The recruiters are LYING to our kids

to get them to sign up. That's the #1 reason for the protests at recruiting offices.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TooBigaTent]

39. And the military murderers willingly follow the orders those policies result in.

[davidinalameda]

12. they went about it the wrong way

the Berkeley city council was so stupid in allowing what they did

[AlphaCentauri]

16. The more competent and educated our military members are, the less "Abu Ghraib" type incidents we'll

I don't think we should blame the soldiers when they just obey orders. Blaming them for Abu Ghraib is a defense for B* atrocities

[INDIA]

20. It's up for debate and unclear what kind of orders they got.

It's almost certain that no "higher ups" instructed them to take "thumbs up" smiling pictures of their heinous acts and then allow them to get out on the internet. That much can be attributed to the soldiers stupidity, cruelty, and lack of discipline. Those were low quality soldiers. They demonstrated a lack of inteligence and a lack of a moral compass. If the military (through recruiting) can pull from a higher quality pool or recruits, things like this won't happen.

Recruiting the right types of people for the military (inteligent, good morals, hard working etc) can help avoid such debacles. Attacking recruiters, and hampering recruiting efforts makes such incidents (and possibly a draft) more likely.

[AlphaCentauri]

67. I'm confident that our soldiers don't support water boarding and other torture methods

also I would favor a draft if it include the family members of those who have the power to declare war. I don't like to see poor kids not having the opportunity to pay for a college degree unless they become soldiers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. Amen

How well educated do you have to be to follow orders?

[INDIA]

38. More educated than the American population at large, apparently.

80% of Army recruits have High School Diploma and the other 20% have a GED, meaning 100% of recruits have one or the other. The other services (Navy, Air Force) have higher percentages of recruits with actual diplomas. This indicates a higher educational level than the civilian population at large.

And 100% of officers have a bachelors degree compared with only about 30% of the American adult population.

Not to mention requiring a diploma or GED is extremely beneficial to black and hispanic recruits, who come from communities with alarmingly high drop out rates.

So I guess our military IS educated Proud2Blib! That's a good thing, right? :hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. How educated do they have to be to follow orders?

Like these orders: http://ivaw.org/

[Kolesar]

53. Targeting a Marine recruiting office is incredibly good for publicity to end this war

Heaven knows the issue gets scant publicity. The war gets less than 10% of the news broadcasts and the antiwar gets about none (except for this week's "first five years in Iraq" stories).

Here is a lesson to you: if the media won't give you coverage, you force them to.

[fascisthunter]

22. How Right Wing... Maybe They Should all Join Up (nt)

[INDIA]

30. I'd be willing to bet a high percentage of them are veterans. As in...

they've already "joined up" and served their country. And now, they seem to take offense at the behavior of the protestors and Berkely City Council, to which they excercised their first amendment rights accordingly.

I fail to see the problem here.

[fascisthunter]

32. You Wouldn't since you are Pro-War

:puke:

[INDIA]

35. Hahahah! Nice reach...

I'm certaily pro military and I love the Marine Corps. That doesn't equate to me supporting this stupid war. Most Democrats, including our two remaining presidential candidates, would agree with me, and probably share a similar viewpoint.

Ignorant fringe dwellers probably WOULDN'T agree with me. But I guess I'm okay with that! :hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. Good call

:applause:

[Kolesar]

48. Oh, bollocks. You are making stuff up and posting it on the internet

Ok, well I am willing to bet that a high percentage of them are not veterans.

[INDIA]

86. Ever heard of "Rolling Thunder"??

I've seen it in person. It's impressive. 250,000 bikers roar into D.C. on Memorial Day weekend to honor POW/MIA, vets and active duty personnel. From reading the "history" section about the event it seems to imply that many, if not most of the participants are Veterans. I can't find any specific statistics, but just look at the pictures section. Tons of the bikers are obviously veterans (many from Vietnam) and are wearing assorted military patches, hats and t-shirts, etc to identify themselves. For guys who were "lied" and duped into military service, they sure seem proud of their service.

There is some sort of connection between bikers and the military. I'm not saying it's a majority, but there's almost definitely a higher percentage of vets in the biker ranks than the US population as a whole.

Check it out...


http://www.rollingthundermotorcyclerally.com/history.html

[Kolesar]

99. I was with the Green Berets, Special Unit Battalions, Commando Airborne Tactics, Specialist Tactics

Unit Battalion
Yeah, it was real hush hush.

http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/t/trading-places-script-transcript-murphy.html">"I was Agent Orange"

[struggle4progress]

78. Most are rightwing nutzos, anyway: it's one of Melanie Morgan's front groups

[goodgd_yall]

26. Puke

:puke:

[darue]

29. ya, "bikers" - like Sam Zell n/t

[FightTheRight89]

33. Go Marines!

I hate what Berkeley's doing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. Go Marines!!

Military investigators are looking into at least five incidents in which U.S. troops are accused of killing Iraqi civilians. Among them: the alleged killings by Marines of 24 Iraqis in Haditha in November.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2006-07-09-rape-investigation_x.htm

[INDIA]

88. Oooh bigotry is FUN!!! Let me try! Let me try!

Go Black People!!

"In 2005, offending rates for blacks were more than 7 times higher than the rates for whites
To view data, click on the chart."


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm







:sarcasm: :puke:

What you are doing is NO DIFFERENT than the way the Freepers smear illegal immigrants and African Americans. It's disgusting. Really, truly, disgusting.

[FightTheRight89]

91. Shameful.

It's not fair to damn an entire group of people based on the actions of a few.

[INDIA]

94. It is if they lean conservative, apparently. SMEAR AWAY!

What percentage of enlisted guys voted Kerry in the last election? I think it was around 40%, and more are voting Dem with each election. The military is really starting to come around to our side.

But the fact that most military members lean conservative means it's fair game to smear Marines as "war criminals." Good job DU. You've sunk to a new low yet again.

[FightTheRight89]

101. Seriously, this is why liberals get a bad name.

A few loud radicals on their side pick out the ridiculous views of a few loud radicals on our side. The result? The 80% or so of the American people that are not complete fools are drowned out in the partisan battle.

[lonestarnot]

122. Are you a jar head or former?

[FightTheRight89]

125. Neither.

Just someone who respects what the military does and holds them as heroes.

[lonestarnot]

133. Guess you haven't been doing much reading lately then either?

[FightTheRight89]

136. What do you mean?

[lonestarnot]

139. Torturing puppies, killing women bringing them groceries, shooting people

for no reason but for sport. Great bunch that military I've been seeing and reading about. We have video in the video forum if you don't believe me. Check it out. And the few bad apple argument doesn't impress me either.

[FightTheRight89]

140. Sorry it doesn't impress you, but...

Common sense is a sound argument. I'm sure a couple members on DU have done some evil things. Does that mean we're all disgusting people? No. It's not fair to judge an entire group based on the actions of a few. In fact, it's disgusting.

[lonestarnot]

143. A few? Hmmmf.

[BrotherBuzz]

36. Move America Forward, Eagles Up, and Free Republic march in lock-step together

and more times than not, their message walks, talks, and smells just like an engineered Astroturf™ movement.

Since Melanie Morgan lost her job at KSFO, she has more time to manipulate events, and get other people to do her bidding.

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. And don't forget Michelle Malkin

She stirs them up on her website. And doesn't always get good results. Last week, she boasted that thousands of them were showing up to counter protest at Winter Soldier.

38 made an appearance. THIRTY EIGHT.

That is 962 less than ONE thousand. :rofl:

[BrotherBuzz]

85. Well, don't forget these same Yahoos held a pro-war demonstration back in 2003...

They held it in LA the same day of the LA Marathon and claimed 50,000 people attended their rally! :rofl:

I try to follow all the lesser players, too, like Catherine Moy and Sal Russo - never, ever board a life boat with the likes of them on board.

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. OMG that is hilarious

Remember in September 2005 when they had that big rally during the march and there were more porta potties than people?

[TooBigaTent]

37. Here's hoping the biker support of the reich turns out like Altamont. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. I would hope not

Didn't people die at Altamont?

[TooBigaTent]

65. That is my point. When you employ psychotic, violent thugs, it is to be expected

that they will act in a different manner than was planned.

At Altamont, they turned on the audience. I hope the bikers turn on the recruiters or the freepers who support them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. Ok I understand your point

But I hope it doesn't become violent.

[Kolesar]

70. These "bikers" are a 21st century cartoon imitation of the original Hell's Angels

The Hell's Angels were a lot of WW2 combat veterans. These guys are just bunch of jokers who can afford a motorcycle.

[TooBigaTent]

72. Exactly. The power elite have always used the dregs of society as storm troopers to

impose their will on the population.

[Kolesar]

73. Not so much dregs, but flabby minds too eager to follow...eom

[Lex Talionis]

103. Now I'll agree with that! Being a "biker" for some..

is getting together on Thursday bike night. Riding a whole 5 miles. Having a ride with every piece of chrome made and never ever riding in the rain. Man, this site cracks me up sometimes.

[Joey Liberal]

40. I wonder how many of the Bikers ever served in uniform?

Other than a prison uniform I mean:)...............

[INDIA]

43. Uhhh..probably a lot. A much higher percentage than the population at large. n/t

[Kolesar]

50. I am willing to bet that a high percentage of bikers are wealthy consumers

with a high disposable income. That's more plausible than your blue sky fabrications.

[INDIA]

74. Here ya go! Found a survey for you.

The average biker pulls in about 7k more than the national average, at 55k (compared to 48k for the population at large)

Other than that the population is slightly more blue-collar, and slightly less likely to have a college degree than the population at large, although the trend seems to show bikers becoming more "yuppified" than years past. No data on military service, but anecdotally, I see a TON of bikers with military gear (bandannas, patches, t-shirts etc.), and friends based at Marine Corps bases around San Diego said there are TONS of bikes on base (mostly crotch rockets, not cruisers.) The military was actually forced to make reflective vests mandatory for service members who ride to base in uniform, since the camo can make them hard to see.

Just for the record, I wouldn't describe somebody pulling in 55k a year as "wealthy" or somebody with "disposable income." Middle class to upper middle class maybe. So my guess that most bikers are middle class blue collar guys is pretty much accurate. Not really a "blue sky" fabrication as you said, right?




http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/symp_motorcycle_safety/Trends%20and%20Safety%20Statistics%20Panel/Pat%20Murphy%20-%20Motorcycle%20Industry%20Council/Pat%20Murphy%20-%20Motorcycle%20Industry%20Council.pdf

[Kolesar]

76. They are wealthy people in the wealthiest country on Earth

They have got money to buy toys like motorcycles. That's called "disposable income". Your $7000/yr data supports that. Most of the people in my family don't even have the money to buy health coverage. Those playboys on two wheels are hardly a disadvantaged lot.

[INDIA]

82. A 42 year old man making 55k a year is a "playboy"???

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight......

Nobody said they were disadvantaged. I said they were blue collar, average joe type guys. The stats seem to support that. Why don't YOU go find me a poll that supports YOUR assertion that bikers are all a bunch of millionaires blowing money on frivolous things?

[CRF450]

97. Exactly, the majority of bike riders are blue collar, average joe's.

We have a family friend exactly like that. When its nice outside, he enjoys his Harley. I have dirtbike, which I ride every chance I get, and its a blast to ride! I may be getting a street bike soon, I'd like to have a Yamaha R6. Those big Harley's just arent my type of bike.

[The Stranger]

129. Uhhh . . . then give them a rifle and send them to the front.

[Kolesar]

56. There is this weird subculture that believes the soldiers were stabbed in the back&we could have won

...VIETNAM.

It manifests itself in the Pow/mia black flags and this subculture of bikers who call themselves "Rolling thunder" who have some belief that a corps of Democrats conspired to give the Communists a victory. The warmongers are unwilling to take credit for their own failings and they have created a scapegoat. This was a problem for the Dems during the Clinton administration.

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. In Body of War, there is a scene of Tomas at a march in DC

and war mongers are taunting him. A veteran in a wheelchair. (Tomas responds but I am not going to give it away - it's one of my favorite lines in the whole movie.)

Same type beat up a Gold Star Father at a march this past September.

These people make me want to puke. How low do you have to go to beat up a man who lost his son in a war? Or to taunt a disabled veteran in a wheelchair? I didn't think people that evil shared this planet with the rest of us.

[Kolesar]

60. I just saw Phil Donahue on cspan Q&A with Brian Lamb

I saw the Bill Moyers segment Friday. Just think, those right wingers are attacking a soldier that they claim to support. And they have the nerve to say we don't support the troops.

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. At our marches, they target the vets

They save their most horrific and nasty talking points for the veterans groups as they march by. It is repulsive.

I also want to know how sending our soldiers off to die in a war is supporting them. How is sending them ill equipped to fight the enemy supporting them? Tomas was in an uncovered truck packed with more troops than it was designed to hold. He was literally a sitting duck. And the 'treatment' and 'therapy' he has received from the VA is beyond inadequate. How can anyone support that?

[YankmeCrankme]

69. I think you're right

For decades the conservatives have tried to, and mostly succeeded because even liberals and Democrats believe it now, persuade us that the only reason we lost was because the military was stabbed in the back by liberals, the media and Democrat politicians back in the states. The military was undefeated on the field and if left to themselves would have won the war. Where have we heard a similar excuse before?

Same result, too, no lesson learned.

[Kolesar]

71. It was Hitler's brownshirt thesis

and is well developed in this engaging article in Harpers Magazine:

http://www.harpers.org/StabbedInTheBack.html

Every state must have its enemies. Great powers must have especially monstrous foes. Above all, these foes must arise from within, for national pride does not admit that a great nation can be defeated by any outside force. That is why, though its origins are elsewhere, the stab in the back has become the sustaining myth of modern American nationalism. Since the end of World War II it has been the device by which the American right wing has both revitalized itself and repeatedly avoided responsibility for its own worst blunders. Indeed, the right has distilled its tale of betrayal into a formula: Advocate some momentarily popular but reckless policy. Deny culpability when that policy is exposed as disastrous. Blame the disaster on internal enemies who hate America. Repeat, always making sure to increase the number of internal enemies.

As the United States staggers past the third anniversary of its misadventure in Iraq, the dagger is already poised, the myth is already being perpetuated. To understand just how this strategy is likely to unfold—and why this time it may well fail—we must return to the birth of a legend.

* * *
The stab in the back first gained currency in Germany, as a means of explaining the nation's stunning defeat in World War I. It was Field Marshal Paul von Hindenburg himself, the leading German hero of the war, who told the National Assembly, “As an English general has very truly said, the German army was ‘stabbed in the back.’”
...snip...

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. That argument ignores the soldiers who rose up and refused to fight in Vietnam

http://www.sirnosir.com/

[0007]

81. All we need now are the truckdrivers and professional wrestlers.

[AlphaCentauri]

84. lol

[fshrink]

89. Symbol of rebellion?

Rebels without a cause maybe, although there always have been plenty of perfectly good, and certainly more risky, causes to choose from. Bikers could however compete with good hopes of success in the inelegant engineering category.

[AlphaCentauri]

93. Not like the wild hogs

[guitar man]

100. oh boy....

..I hope everybody doesn't think that these guys represent the the thinking of every one of us "bikers clad in black leather". Trust me, they don't. I know plenty of hardcore bikers who detest this was just as much as anybody. These guys are just a segment of the biker community at large. I hope bikers don't wind up being stereotyped and painted with a broad brush because of the views and actions of some.

[goodgd_yall]

105. As someone who has participated in anti-war vigils

on street corners, I can tell you that I know that some bikers support our anti-war efforts. They'll wave and/or toot their horns as they pass by.

[guitar man]

106. thanks, from a biker

*toot* :hi:

[Lex Talionis]

107. Hate to be the one to tell ya..

We already are stereotyped. Just read some of the stupid shit posted here by the local experts. Man, When this country does tank, some of y'all are going to wish you knew some real Bikers. I guess though with the way the more "enlightened" elements here think of us. I guess, it will be OK for me and others to stick with our stereotyping of them.

[guitar man]

109. well, as my daddy used to say...

an "ex" is a has-been and a "spurt" is a little drip that didn't quite make it, so I'll take anything the local "experts" have to say with a grain of salt...:hi:

[Lex Talionis]

113. LOL! Heard that one all my life, too. There are some real..

nut cases on this board for sure. Ridin' weather is upon us. Ride free, die free. And watch out for bluehairs and drivers with cellphones stuck to their ears. Respects to you and yours, GTRMAN.

[guitar man]

116. there are also

...some really great people here too. I have been helped out by total strangers with big hearts right here on DU. I just tend to ignore the nut cases, they show up at boards all over the net.

you keep the shiny side up and be safe out there too :hi:

[Lex Talionis]

126. I agree. Their are some here who have been very cordial and

respectful to me, made me question my "evil" ways. We are as different as night and day and yet they can carry on a conversation, even from the safety of the internet, in a very grownup manner.

[guitar man]

128. it's been beyond cordial for me

not naming names, but there's been a couple of times when people here put their "money where their mouth is" so to speak and helped my family out when we really needed it. No judgement, no lectures, just reached out and helped because they saw someone who neede it. God bless them for it, I doubt I would have found such help anywhere else.....

[winter999]

115. Guess you need to read the posts above.

Stereotyping gone wild. To recap:

Marines are...

• Murderers
  
• Stupid
  

Bikers are...

• Wealthy
  
• Freepers
  
• Brown Coats
  

[guitar man]

124. I tend to ignore

...the ignorant. I'm a biker and served in the USMC when I was a youngin' and none of those things apply to me. Arguing about such things is an exercise in futility.

I figure the folks making such comments probably ran across an individual or small group somewhere that influenced their thinking toward anybody and everybody they want to lump in with them. I know that all Marines aren't stupid murderers and all bikers aren't wealthy brownshirt freepers. That's good enough for me.

[Blue_Tires]

104. i wonder if they are related to rolling thunder...

[w8liftinglady]

108. These "biker organizations" are just that.I am a "biker".

I love my motorcycle and the freedom it gives me.If you saw me in leathers,you would think I was one of "them".You've read my letters.You know my story.You who criticize all are as guilty as those you criticize of being close-minded.

[guitar man]

110. well said

howdy biker :hi:

[Lex Talionis]

111. Damn right! Well said and well put ,lady. As for the rest of ya....

DILLIGAF. Respects to you and yours, w8liftinglady.

[lonestarnot]

123. Let's just say, I've not seen any liberal bikers taking any stands here in AZ. All prowar that I've

had run-ins with, jarheaded look'n freaks.

[classysassy]

131. Arizona

Bisbee and Tucson are the only sane towns in AZ,seem to me the rest of the carpetbaggers and snowbirds,are war lovers,the Goldwater and McCain crowd.

[lonestarnot]

132. Jerome.

[lonestarnot]

114. Raising hand! Ever notice the lunk in their head now days?

[CRF450]

137. What the hell is with some of ya'll??

Just because some "hells angels" wannabe bozoe's on motorcycles are pro-war doesn't make the whole damn motorcycle community that way. Get the fuck over yourselfs.

[Robb]

141. No kidding

...The motorcycle "community" is about the most factionalized thing I've seen. Outside of, you know, Democrats. ;)

[Megahurtz]

142. Buncha Fuckin' Posers.

That's all they are. Wannabe-Biker ReThug Yuppies. Phonies. Idiots. :argh:

[natrat]

144. they were all dressed alike , they looked so pathetically white trash stupid

[DuaneBidoux]

145. If there is no violence I say they are simply carrying out their rights.

The important thing for progressives to do however is "strike back" (military lingo) with a bigger and more vociferous counter-demonstration!