Nader to Democrats: Stop Blaming Me for '00 Election

[Hissyspit]

Source: Washington Times

NADER TO DEMOCRATS: STOP BLAMING ME FOR ‘00 ELECTION
by FOXNews.com
Tuesday, June 24, 2008

Ralph Nader is angry with Democrats who he says are holding a grudge against him for George W. Bush’s election in 2000. In an interview with The Washington Times Tuesday, the independent presidential candidate expressed frustration over his failed efforts to be invited to testify on Capitol Hill on consumer issues. He also lamented the current political system, which he says is slanted away from allowing third party candidates to have a reasonable run at winning the White House.

Nader said he finds congressional Republicans more approachable than their Democratic counterparts due to the lingering grudge over the 2000 election, when George W. Bush defeated Al Gore by 537 votes in Florida. Nader won about 96,000 votes in the state, many of which were siphoned from would-be Gore voters.

Nader said Republicans are better at developing relationships and legislation on issues of accord. He accuses Democrats of selling out to corporate interests and noted that Democrats need to realize they lost the past two elections themselves in a thousand different ways.

Nader claimed the grudge extends past the election, and even today he is excluded from testifying in areas of his expertise. A spokesperson for Arkansas Sen. Mark Pryor, whom Nader used to exemplify his point, denied Nader was being blackballed.

Read more: http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/06/24/nader-to-democrats-stop-blaming-me-for-00-election/

---

[tularetom]

1. Hmm Moonie Paper and Fixed Noise

Gee do ya think Ralphie is being used to bash dems?

[meegbear]

13. DING! DING! DING! DING!

[southern_belle]

2. But if the shoe fits...

wear it and quit whining about it! :shrug:

[Oregone]

38. In his defense, one word: Lieberman.

And there are more words than that if we want to be honest with ourselves. The dems do their own share of whining about that election afterall.

[Lasher]

120. That's a defense?

Nader's 2000 ego trip cost us dearly.

[cobalt1999]

3. Poor baby. I'll never forgive him for helping to put Bush in office.

If I ever saw him in person, I'd tell it to his face.

[John Q. Citizen]

68. They wouldn't let him in the debate because they claimed his campaign was insignificant. I guess

they were wrong?

I like Nader.

He's a good man.

I think he's a very weak candidate, I wouldn't vote for him, yet I like him.

Of course, I'm a member of the Democratic Party, which means I'm in favor of democracy. That's the system where people can run for office if they want to.

It's a shame that both the Democratic and Repo parties have fixed it so that 3rd parties and independents can only run as spoilers. It's ironic, isn't it? They fix the system by outlawing fusion voting and refusing to consider instant run-off voting, two constitutionally OK ways to allow 3rd parties/independents to have some political relevance, then when a 3rd party runs they whine and whine about how they are "spoilers."

Personally, I'll never forgive the Socialist Workers Candidate who got 10 thousand or so votes in Florida in 2000. Or Pat Buchanan, for getting all those Jewish seniors to vote for him. There is so little time, and so many people to never forgive.

Of course, we should probably add all the Dem US Senators who refused to stand with the House Black Caucus to our list of unforgiven people. They let bush get away with stealing the election and didn't say boo about it.

[pberq]

71. Excellent points - so many here have blinders on

[pokercat999]

79. Mr. Nader has done a lot for the American people over

the years, fighting the likes of GM. He did not cause the failure of Gore/Liarman, that mantel they wear all by themselves.

Who here says Bush didn't have the right to run???????then STFU.

[jespwrs]

92. Bingo!

[proud2BlibKansan]

113. Wish I could recommend your post

Excellent points!

:applause:

[Nihil]

122. Excellent post.

It's quite pitiful to see DUers whinging about Nader and completely
forgetting that there were *SO* many other things wrong - not only
about that election but about the behaviour in 2004 and the ongoing
behaviour of most of the candidates that claim a "D" for their name.

People have dropped the fight over election fraud from two elections
and decided to move on ... so why keep the pathetic vitriol going
over Nader?
:shrug:

[John Q. Citizen]

128. Having a scapegoat brings comfort to some people. It's the only answer I can come up with.

[lumpy]

127. Hear hear

v

[roguevalley]

110. I was ospirg since the seventies and he was one of my idols until

he pulled that stunt, the fucker. fuck you, Nader. Get used to your fucking footnote in history. You reap what you sowed and zillions of people can't be wrong and you right, you dork.

[jobycom]

4. Just in case anyone still held the fantasy that he's not a Republican.

The blood of every dead child in Iraq and Afghanistan is as much on his hands as on the hands of the man he actively campaigned for in 2000. He may not have been the difference in the election, but that wasn't for lack of trying.

Of course the Republicans are easier for you to deal with, Mr. Nader. They know how to use you, so they are very nice indeed to you.

[izquierdista]

18. A tool

Nixon's "plumbers" live on and Ralph Nader is their plunger.

[jobycom]

28. I think he's worse. I think he's an agent.

He refused to stand up against the vote theft in Florida in 2000. The first thing he published after the election was a praise of Bush's budget proposal, even though it was blasted by every real liberal. Here he's praising the Republicans and how easy they are to work with. He's a multi-millionaire who got that way through stocks from corporations, even though he influences corporate stocks through his own publications. He's lobbied on the Hill against regulations on corporations of the type he runs. He's even lied about owning a house and a car.

He's a Republican who has gotten rich by playing a liberal, I think.

[beltanefauve]

37. He's made out

like a bandit on the repeal of the Capitol Gains Tax as well, which is what * was proposing while campaigning in 2000. And he had no problems taking campaign contributions from Republicans in 2004 who were deliberately trying to throw a wrench in that election.

jobycom, your analysis is spot-on.

[PATRICK]

50. Vast inconsistency

He has a clear reputation for uncompromising and then vindictive relationships with other environmentalists. This purity extends clearly to judge his rivals. In the political game a sudden madness overtakes him in suddenly loving all to hell the "bi-partisanship" that Labor and other groups yield to undefeatable "moderate" GOPers(that is, those who will not hurt them so bad and support Labor issues somewhat and at least slow down the extremists). Gladhanding blinds him almost totally when added to ire against the Dems. In the political game he further yields the GOP podium delivered to him for their ends, yields the fraud vote cover it gives to them, and does not enjoy much exposure to his issues and message. His sole message, front and center, in fact, is how terrible the Dems are and that they have to be purged and destroyed first.

The priorities are all reversed so badly it must be one of two things, both centering on pride more than filthy lucre or power. He IS working hand in glove for the GOP, and doing so to regain his lost stature and podium has passed to pure habit as much as his righteous recitation of principles. Or, he is just personally ticked off, too proud to see it and takes the rebuffs of Dems vengefully to heart. That is exactly what it sounds like unless he is exactly correct- which evidence examined by the sane says would have to turn the world upside down in favor of the GOP pirates.

Can't get exposure. Attack Dems. That is what makes it to the papers and he probably doesn't care at this point to think this a strategy to force people to reconsider his value and get his voice back front and center. He lurks the halls of GOP exploiters, one of the directives being to be nice to Ralph to exploit him as one of a musty compendium of ploys and fun manipulations of prideful purists, high blown suckers
who can't see their sell out through the red glaze and are ripe for stroking and leashing.

Too simple for a smart proud man used to voice power to see, too typical of his dealings with environmental groups that parted the ways, whether their own corporate compromises are somehow more impure than Ralph's high vengeance tragedy or not.

And what Ralph, from now to the end of media unfairness you know so well, will ever see light of day except your attack on the only hope left to the people to move toward the goals you say you champion and working in a "bi-partisan" way with rational decent republican leadership- wherever it is hanging out these days? You are a simple tool of the GOP and that is as tired as the issue pleas you have made and the GOP has dumped like the morning trash.

I am even trying not to be simply vituperative either. This is embarrassing tragedy of a once great champion of the right ideas. Damaged goods gets in the way of objective testimony and he will always be in all his dealings good or bad, unrepentant and a poor judge of himself in relation to others who "cross" him.

[jobycom]

108. I think maybe he doesn't know he's working for them.

He knows he likes the money and the attention the media gives him, and like a dog to a bell, he's learned what responses bring the money and fame. They ring, he salivates. He may not even realize he's doing it. But he has been, since 2000.

[MilesColtrane]

94. Nah...

Nader is a plunger's intended target.

[EOTE]

34. He may not have been the difference in the election?

He was without a doubt the difference in the election. The pigs did their damnedest to steal as many votes as they could and prevent as many of Gore's votes from being counted as possible and still they only managed to "win" by a bit more than 500 votes in Florida. There is no doubt that if Nader hadn't been in the race that Gore would have won Florida in spite of their efforts to steal it.

[jobycom]

41. Two reasons I'm right and you're wrong

:) Sorry, okay, two reasons to defend what I said, anyway.

First, you can't reconstruct the election like that. If Nader had not been in it, Gore might have campaigned more to the left, or to the right. His voting base would have shifted. Those who voted Nader may have voted for Gore, or they may have stayed home instead. There's just no way to know.

Second, in Florida, I firmly believe that those "overvotes" were tampered with after the election. Someone calculated how many votes they needed to beat Gore, they went to a couple of counties where the voters were heavily Democratic, and they began over-voting the ballots. No, I have no real solid evidence of that, only circumstantial evidence, but that's what I believe. (For the record, I believe Oswald shot Kennedy, 9-11 was not an inside job, and something quite terrestrial landed at Roswell, so this is rare for me). So, if Gore had been leading by a larger margin, they'd have tampered with more ballots.

So I don't think we can know for sure what affect Nader had on the election. I could be wrong on both accounts. But what I can know for sure is that he tried to put Bush in office. That tells me all I need to know about Nader.

[ooglymoogly]

69. He played a reckless spoiler in an election that would change the course of

history just to fan his idiot puffery even though he had plenty of warning. For the way things have played out, Nader deserves his share of the blame no matter how you spin it.
With over a million dead and the shredding of the constitution, I can never forgive him.

[Old and In the Way]

56. Look at the NH results in 2000

without Nader being the spoiler there, Gore wins NH and the Presidency.

He's a pompous ass that never tires of seeing his name in the news.

[EOTE]

65. Yeah, either way he's a spoiler.

If Nader didn't want to get blamed for giving the election to bush, then he shouldn't have. I respect the guy for a lot of good he did in his life, but as soon as he became responsible for the clusterfuck that was the past 7.5 years, he undid it all and quite a bit more.

[jobycom]

100. There's no certainty how those voters would have voted without Nader.

Or how the dynamics of the election would have changed.

Nader revealed himself a hypocrite, either way. I don't know how anyone is taking anything I said as a defense of him. I'm just saying you can't determine how the election would have turned out without him because it would have been a different election. Gore would have campaigned differently, Bush would have campaigned differently, and the whole dynamics of left, right, and center would have been different. Either way, Nader campaigned for Bush and that says all I need to know about him.

[Old and In the Way]

109. NH: Bush - 273,560 / Gore - 266, 348 / Nader 22, 437

I'd bet 2/3's of these votes were left leaning Indies. Of course, there's no way to know. But you are correct that Nader ran in states with tight races, which he vowed he wouldn't do. His messaging was focused on the voter who was most likely a weak Democrat, strong independent that was socially progressive. I think Bush got his votes and I think Nader pulled NH into Bush's column. If Gore wins NH, Florida doesn't matter.

Funny thing, if Gore had his Global Warming/Environmental message developed in 2000, I think Nader gets 10% of his NH vote.

[Parche]

116. NH

That is what I always say, his votes in NH cost Gore the election
so we would never have needed Florida.
:hi:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

59. He's known for being a dick to his employees and busted an attempt to unionize.

Doesn't practice what he preaches.

Just like a Repuke.

[frylock]

64. really? how about the dems who FUCKING VOTED for this war?

do you feel just as strongly, or do they get a free pass because, well, they're dems?

[pokercat999]

80. And the Dems continue to fund it? After 2006? WTF

Election/re-election is obviously much more important than doing the right thing to most congressional dems.

[jobycom]

102. The ones who actually voted for this war, like Edwards, I don't forgive.

Those like Clinton and Kerry who saw the IWR as a last chance to stop Bush's invasion, I think less of, but since they didn't vote for the war, I can support them.

Edwards, though, was more gung ho than Miller or Lieberman. I haven't forgiven them.

Has nothing to do with the blood on Nader's hands, though.

[liberal N proud]

5. Just another case where the truth hurts

[DLnyc]

6. A Dem to Nader: Stop being a puerile, prima dona, egotistical, oblivious

fucking jerk.

The Dem and Rep candidates are more sharply different this year than they have been in about 50 years. Time for Ralphie to get off his hobby horse and do something useful.

[applegrove]

7. He lost the 2000 election and then he went out in 2004 and ran again. He doesn't

see the difference between Dems and Repukes. Says they are the same. Why would he be invited anywhere?

[WillParkinson]

8. Sorry, I agree with Mr. Nader...

It's not his fault that neither the Democrats or Republicans were able to field a candidate that captured the attention of the masses. No more than it will be the fault of Mr. Barr if Mr. McCain loses the election.

Some people in the US are hungry for a legitimate 3rd party. The two we have are so entrenched right now that sometimes it's difficult to tell where one party starts and the other one stops. (Yes, Ms. Pelosi, I'm looking in your direction.)

If Mr. Obama is able to stoke up enough support then he deserves to be the President. The election is his to win or lose. As it is with Mr. McCain. They have no one to blame if they can't pull it out.

[Xipe Totec]

17. I'm not buying it

He knew what he was doing.

He said there was no difference between Al Gore and the Imbecile in Chief.

He decided to "teach us a lesson"

Way to draw support for the 3rd party.

I will never forgive that son of a bitch.

[pberq]

72. these and other arguments are absurd

Nader had almost no press coverage in 2000, but W and Al Gore were given all the space they wanted.

We know W is just plain lame, and Al Gore was not the person we see today. He couldn't even win Tenessee, his home state - are you blaming that on Nader too?

In any case, Gore won FL even with Nader - the Supreme Court illegally gave it to Bush.

[Jefferson23]

99. I'm with you on this. I do think Nader should testify on the Hill and do what

he did best. Who loses when they shut someone out of hearings..us.

[CBHagman]

126. But it's not as though no one else is qualified to testify.

What I think gets lost in all this is that Nader is acting as though this is all about him. If he really were so eager for reform, he would take steps that would bring about that about, rather than making this a personal argument, or complaining that no party is as righteous as he is, etc.

For example, if he wanted a single payer system, he could have sought to build a coalition, win over public opinion, etc. There are myriad ways he could have done that. Sitting for interviews in which he claims there is no difference between the GOP and the Democrats is not going to accomplish that, and neither is bewailing that he's a pariah. A fair amount of work went into getting those doors to shut.

See also Paul Farhi's article from today's Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/24/AR2008062401619.html

[Patchuli]

97. I agree with you!

And I would like to ask Mr. Self-Important Nader if he *still* thinks there was "no difference" between * and Gore!

Go home and shut up, Ralphie. NO ONE wants to play with you!

[CBHagman]

19. You've just defeated your own argument!

Some people in the US are hungry for a legitimate 3rd party.

That's just the point -- some. The U.S. doesn't have proportional representation where various parties land in the Congress and form alliances or shift the balance. About a third of the voting public identifies with the Democrats, about a third with the Republicans, and the rest are up for grabs. The numbers just aren't there for a third party representation, and that seems to be true at various levels -- state, local, national.

And besides, to get anything passed in a legislature, you have to have the votes, which means sizable voting blocs and/or accumulation of allies across the aisle.

And I'm a little tired of people dismissing millions and millions of voters, up to and sometimes beyond half the voting public. You suggest that neither candidate in 2000 captured the attention of the masses. How big do the masses have to be before they get to be the masses? One hundred percent of the voting public?

And one of the sadder spectacles is Ralph Nader trying to retain an air of purity while he won't take action to achieve the things he supposedly wants. Sorry, you don't squander your good name bitching at the people who are your natural allies and then whine that no one wants to play with you.

[leftynyc]

21. Perhaps not but what IS his fault

was his outright LIE that there was no difference between the two parties or candidates. And further LIED about not campaigning in states that were close. The man is an egotistical asshole and I'll never forgive him for his part in giving us 8 years of hell with the chimp. Fuck him.

[AndyTiedye]

81. The Fact that Nader Was DELIBERATELY WORKING TO PUT BUSH IN THE WHITE HOUSE Cannot be Forgiven

Whether or not the Repiglickins could have stolen the election without his help is irrelevant — he WAS helping them,
and he was insulting our intelligence by claiming he was just trying to get to 5% for funding (in small swing states,
instead of big safe Democratic states with lots of voters).

Go Cheney Yourself, Ralph.

[digidigido]

83. actually Will, that's either disingenuous or ignorant of you

If you look at the votes state by state of the 2000 elecection, and see what states Gore lost and by what margin Bush carried those states. it's pretty
obvious that Nader cost Gore the presidency. If you factor in Nader saying that there's no difference between Bush and Gore, then you have the basis
for a pretty realistic resentment. If he was too f...ing stupid to see it, he has no business being a consumer advocate let alone a presidential candidate

[WillParkinson]

96. I am no fan of Mr. Nader. I seriously dislike Mr. Bush.

I like, and voted for, Al Gore. But one man was not responsible for Mr. Gore losing. There were many factors that contributed to the "loss". If it makes people feel better to blame one man then more power to them.

[Tarheel_Dem]

112. If there were any evidence that Ralph was actually trying to build a

viable 3rd party, and not just looking for a ticket to run on every four years, I would have a lot more respect for him. I mean, does anyone really know what Ralph does between presidential elections? Was he concerned about building the Green Party after the '00 election was over? Did he get involved in recruiting candidates to run for local or state office?

Truth is, Nader's a loser, a spoiler, and an attention whore.

[Pierre.Suave]

9. And finally, in case there was any doubt...

Nader shows himself to be who he truly is...

Can we ban him from public? I am so sick of him.

[truthisfreedom]

10. Nice way to get yourself back in the news, Nader. The bitter spoiler.

Maybe it's time to just hang it up?

[whistle]

11. Ralph Nader needs to climb back into his viper's nest

[Pale Blue Dot]

12. How many times was Nader asked to testify during the six years the Republicans were in charge?

It obviously must have been many times.

[meegbear]

14. Ralph Nader - Unsafe at any speed

[bluestateguy]

54. That book was a load of crap

My father had a Corvair for years, and it never caused him any problems at all. Not a one.

[balantz]

15. I'm not standing up for Nader

when I say that shrubbie would have won whether or not Nader was running.

The game is rigged and hasn't been repaired yet.

[pattmarty]

16. Everyone seems to conveniently forget everything Nader........

......has TRIED to do for this country. My opinion, he is a great American.

[Demonaut]

20. and you're welcome to it

as for me "fuck nader"

[cobalt1999]

22. I'm sure the folks running Chernobyl TRIED not to cause a nuclear meltdown too.

As they say, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Lots of folks TRY to do well, but cause more problems than if they'd stayed in bed. Nader should go away.

[EFerrari]

23. Who knew one man could subvert the whole Democratic party, n/t

[coalition_unwilling]

24. Nader is not the reason Bush became Prez, the current Supreme Court is. Having said that, I do

think Nader is absolutely wrong that "Republicans are better at developing relationships and legislation on issues of accord." Does that mean Nader supports torture and extraordinary rendition???

[Tarheel_Dem]

111. If not for Nader, the USSC decision wouldn't have been necessary...nt

[bitchkitty]

25. Oh, please - stop trying to get attention, Ralph. n/t

[High Plains]

26. Nader is right about the hold of the corporocrats on political power in the US.

And many, many DUers agree with him. I read it on countless threads here everday.

The continual whining about Nader costing the party the election is just partisan silliness. 96,000 votes for him in Florida. What about all the Democrats who voted for Bush?

[Robb]

30. He didn't cost the party the election

He cost the country. And he is unwilling to even consider taking the blame.

There are a lot of dead people who would agree.

[ToeBot]

47. And the fact that every candidate on the ballot received more than 518 votes. nt

All nine of them.

[mrs_p]

27. goodness - why not just join them?

"...he finds congressional Republicans more approachable than their Democratic counterparts... said Republicans are better at developing relationships and legislation on issues of accord" :eyes:

no, no, nader - i won't fall for your charms ever again!

[sepdxdem]

29. screw ralph nader

[DumpDavisHogg]

31. If not for the DLC...

If it wasn't for the stupid DLC, nobody would have been driven off to vote for Nader.

Blame the DLC. Blame Bill Clinton and his school uniform crap.

If the Democrats didn't want to lose votes to Nader, they should have completely rejected the DLC.

[pberq]

75. that is the truth!

[Lost-in-FL]

32. Nevermind... its just FoxNews. n/t

[Kitsune]

33. Lieberman did more to screw Gore over than Nader ever did.

Of course, everyone hates Liberman's guts too, so I don't know how much that proves.

I do still have a lot of respect for Ralph Nader, and he's done a lot of great things for this country, but I really wish he'd learn to pick his battles.

[Irishonly]

35. Too bad

I do hold a grudge.

[Dogtown]

36. STOP PRETENDING YOU MATTER, NADER!

fucking one-trick pony...

[Hissyspit]

42. "but he turns that trick with pride"

I love that album.

[truebrit71]

39. TrueBrit71 to Nader: Go Cheney yourself....

..of course you are one of the reasons why you egotistical bastard...

The Dems and republes are one and the same right Ralph, you miserable fucking prick?

FUCK YOU NADER!!!

:grr:

[Iggo]

40. Hey, Nader!

Fuck you!

[Mountainman]

43. I guess only 536 votes for Nader were siphoned from Gore.

Al Gore by 537 votes in Florida. Nader won about 96,000 votes in the state, many of which were siphoned from would-be Gore voters.

[BrklynLib at work]

44. It is very sad the extent to which Nader will now go to overcome his current irrelevancy.

There just aren't that many people who really give a rat's ass what he says and/or thinks.

[The Stranger]

45. Ralph Nader was right.

We elected Democrats, and they act now just like Republicans. The Pelosi traitor covers for war crimes. They pass illegal wiretapping laws while their constituency fights for survival. Meanwhile, the Leiberman traitor begs for more illegal wars, and he was even on the ballot against Nader.

Ralph Nader was right.

[onehandle]

46. Onehandle to Nader: Fuck you, Ralph. You knew Florida was close and kept campaigning there.

Three factors put Bush in the White House:

1. SCOTUS

2. A crooked Bush family run Florida government.

3. Ralph Nader.

The only factor that could have changed the result was you Ralph. If less than 1/2 of one percent of your votes had gone to Gore, Bush would be a failed ex-Governor instead of a future failed ex-President. Those votes would have overridden the efforts of the Bush Crime Family and SCOTUS.

Fuck you, Ralph.

[rox63]

48. Of course Nader likes the rethugs

They're the ones financing his ego-driven campaigns. They are using him to draw votes away from Obama.

[Zachstar]

49. Fuck Nader!

[GeniusLib]

51. This Democrat to Nader: FUCK OFF

[bluestateguy]

52. I will go to my grave still embittered and angry at Ralph Nader

nt

[jespwrs]

53. Beware: You might hate this article,

But it raises some good points.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070226_an_unreasonably_principled_man/

[glitch]

66. Nader needs to think of another tactic - trying the same failed tactic over and over

is not helpful, in this case quite harmful. Nader and Chris Hedges are wrong on this, IMO.

[pberq]

77. excellent article! thanks for posting

Chris Hedges gets it:

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070226_an_unreasonably_principled_man

. . .I spent the last two years reporting and writing “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America.” The rise of the Christian right—the most dangerous mass movement in American history—can be traced directly to the corporate rape of America. This movement, which calls for the eradication of real and imagined enemies, all branded as “satanic,” at home and abroad, is an expression of rage. This rage rises out of the deep distortions and dislocations that have beset tens of millions of Americans shunted aside in the new global marketplace. The massive flight of manufacturing and professional jobs overseas, the ruthless slashing of state and federal assistance and the rise of an unchecked American oligarchy have plunged many Americans into deep economic and personal despair. They have turned, because of this despair, to “Christian” demagogues who promise magic, miracles, angels, the gospel of prosperity and a fantastic Christian utopia. And the Republicans and the Democrats are equally culpable for this assault.

There are only two solutions left. We must organize to fight the corporate state, to redirect our national wealth and resources to fund a massive antipoverty campaign and curb the cycle of perpetual war that enriches the military-industrial complex and by extension the two political parties that dominate Washington, or we must accept an inevitable Christo-fascism backed by these corporations. Don’t expect glib Democratic politicians such as John Edwards, Sen. Clinton and Sen. Barack Obama to address these issues. They are, as Nader understands, hostage to corporate money.

Nader, perhaps better than anyone else, has grasped the long, disastrous rise of the corporate state.

(much more at link . . .)

[CreekDog]

55. As soon as it stops being his fault, I will stop blaming him

:rofl:

[Seabiscuit]

57. Go back to your afternoon nap, Ralph.

No one cares about you anymore.

[DinahMoeHum]

58. Ralph, go eat a granite cookie.

Fucking asshole.

[travelingtypist]

60. Oh, waaah, waaah, waaah, waaah.

Fuck you, Ralph. FUCK. YOU.

[smoogatz]

61. Democrats to Nader: you are personally to blame for 8 years of Bush

misrule and all the destruction it's wrought, you self-obsessed egomaniacal asshole. Live with it.

[damntexdem]

62. Dems to Nader: "stop doing it."

Nader WAS responsible for making the election so close that the GOP could steal it.

[bean fidhleir]

63. Dolchstoßlüge

It seems to be quite a hardy perennial, suited to any soil.

[frylock]

67. what a shock to find such reactionary knee-jerk responses to a nader thread..

the dems can't accomplish fuckall, so lets have a two-minute hate on Nader!

[jespwrs]

70. I can't help but think all of this utter hatred

towards Nader is misplaced. His "spoiler" role is theoretical, when we KNOW the supreme court betrayed us and we KNOW the ten or twenty other ways we KNOW the 2000 election was stolen. Nader is a well-deserved thorn in the side of the Democratic party. One could also bring up the point that without Ross Perot as a "spoiler" for the Republicans, Bill Clinton might not have won two terms.

I think the real issue, one that no one ever talks about, is the gross inaccuracy of the American election system. The will of the people is not reflected accurately. This is a mathematical fact. I like Ireland and Switzerland's systems for example. No vote is "wasted", and a much broader field of perspectives are given a chance and a third or fourth party can actually gain ground and no one has to feel afraid to vote for the candidate they actually like.

If the resources wasted on keeping Nader off the ballot and harassing him were put to better use we may have won an election or two.

[sendero]

78. Blah blah blah..

... it's not misplaced at all, and no amount of bullshit excuses will change that.

Nader threw the election and in sharp contrast to his claims, it turns out Republicans ARE different than Democrats.

[jespwrs]

85. So...

So you think facts are bullshit excuses and you choose to just blame Nader? At best this theory that Nader is responsible for the Bush presidency is a very incomplete picture of reality.

[sendero]

124. "Incomplete"..

.... incomplete in that if Gore had just gotten more votes it wouldn't have happened? Incomplete in that if various other factors including the SCOTUS weren't in play it wouldn't have happened?

I'm sick of this bullshit argument. Simple FACT time. Nader sucked votes from GORE not from BUSH. Simple FACT, had Gore a mere fraction of those votes he would have won handily. Simple FACT, if Nader had withdrawn from the battleground states it would have cost him NOTHING and we would not have had 8 years of America being dragged into the abyss.

No, I DO HOLD NADER responsible, I don't give two shits how "progressive" he is or what he has accomplished in the past. He FUCKed the Dem party and he FUCKed America and forgiveness or respect is not forthcoming from here.

[Nihil]

129. So is your justification of scapegoating and blame-dodging.

You had two perfectly good "simple FACT"s there at the top of your post ...

1> if Gore had just gotten more votes it wouldn't have happened
2> if various other factors including the SCOTUS weren't in play
2> it wouldn't have happened

... but you choose to ignore those in favour of a bunch of non-"FACT"s:

> Nader sucked votes from GORE not from BUSH.

Nader grabbed votes. Your noble electorate didn't bother to turn out so
it is not as if there was 100% of the votes to be shared up.

If "Nader sucked votes from GORE" then maybe, just maybe, those people
WEREN'T HAPPY WITH GORE AS AN OPTION. Maybe some of the blame should be
placed where it belongs?

Remember, Al Gore wasn't the holy environmentalist Nobel prize-winner at
that time: he was more environmentally-minded than most other candidates
but he hadn't had his "Damascus moment" as he was still primarily a
politician angling for the presidency of the United States. Maybe if he'd
made it to PotUS then he'd never have chosen (or had the chance) to do all
of the good stuff that he has done since then.

> Simple FACT, had Gore a mere fraction of those votes he would have won
> handily.

I agree with this one. It could be put even more simply for those of a more
objective disposition: Had Gore a mere fraction of those votes that he didn't
have, he would have won handily. Why restrict the truth to a subset that
only favours your PoV? Oh, sorry, that wouldn't make it as easy to blame
his fellow loser would it?

> Simple FACT, if Nader had withdrawn from the battleground states it
> would have cost him NOTHING

That's especially funny after the recent primaries! :rofl:

> We would not have had 8 years of America being dragged into the abyss.

Wakey wakey! You didn't. You had FOUR years and then fucked up again.

:eyes:

To quote the Mirror: "How can 59,054,087 people be so DUMB?"

[jespwrs]

131. "incomplete"

in that at best, your argument is basically that Nader was in the election. One of 1000 factors, but it's all his fault. He is the party designated scapegoat, a fine example of a fool's distraction. And your argument is irrelevant anyway.

The fact is Gore WON the election and then he and the democratic leadership allowed it to be stolen, continuing with, and embarking on a new incredible journey of spinelessness. A fitting first for the behavior to follow over the next eight years. The idea of cloaking an outright election fraud and voter disenfranchisement situation that should have ended in many indictments and arrests as okay because it was "a peaceful transition of power" that "America can be proud of" is absurd and criminal in itself. I'd much rather have a mess and some justice at the end of the tunnel than be proud of the precedent now set that the most conniving, deceitful bully wins, as long as things appear to be "normal" in some fucked up perverted crazy sense.

[digidigido]

84. See Post 83

[jespwrs]

86. Still...

An incredibly incomplete picture of reality.

[happygoluckytoyou]

73. nader...... there were several reasons....YOU ARE JUST THE BIGGEST ASSHOLE..

asswipe son of a bitch knew just what he was doing and what it MIGHT cause..... i blame him for the war as much as if he tossed the first bomb....

F U NADER.... and the horse you road in on..... get out of politics and quit trying to escape responsibility FOR YOUR ACTIONS

[Zorra]

74. You're going in history as a goat, Ralph. You did a really dumb thing,

and there's no way around it. Even my dog knew Bu*h was a danger to every living thing back in 2000. Tag, you're it.

Ralph, you are a smart guy...what would the country be like today if Al Gore was in the WH instead of the little fascist pig-weasel that stole the election?
:banghead:

[reggie the dog]

76. Why didn't Nader point out that Gore won Florida according to the recount????

The supreme court stole the damn election for Bush. Nader didn't lose anything for the democrats. There was a libertarian on the right pulling votes away from W. too.

[jespwrs]

88. Yeah but it's so much simpler and satisfying to just have a scapegoat.

Rather than try to understand the whole picture.

:sarcasm:

[WhiteTara]

82. rot in hell Ralph you POS

he needs to be ostracized where ever he goes! Not only did he syphon votes, he bad mouthed Al for the entire election cycle.

[galledgoblin]

87. I don't blame you for '00, Ralph

I blame the lousy campaign and the internal democratic party sabotage for '00, Gore should have (DID!) won. Bush was a doddering silver-spooned nothing back then who, if it were not for the poor showing by the democrats, would have lost in a landslide. in '00, you did a good thing by pointing out that liberals cannot sit on their hands and assume the democratic party would serve our best interests without pressure.

I DO BLAME YOU FOR CONTINUING TO PUSH INTERNAL DIVISIVENESS OVER THE LAST 8 YEARS WHEN WE WERE FIGHTING THE REPUBLICANS FOR BASIC RIGHTS AND COMMON SENSE.

if he wants to become relevant again and contribute on consumer issues, then he needs to at least step down from his third party campaign this time around and instead offer his leadership elsewhere!

[libodem]

89. Shuddup Ralph

and count yourself responsible for 1,000,000 dead Iraq's, 4100 dead soldiers, and the melted polar ice caps. Yeah, how do we like ya now, crash-test boy. Hope you enjoy the global warming you made happen, bitch. FUCK NADER! (yes, I'm shouting)

[Doctor_J]

90. TOJ to Nader - stop believing I listen to anything you say

[jespwrs]

91. BREAKING

Nader responsible for slavery, the holocaust, and the sinking of the titanic!;)

[JerseygirlCT]

93. Oh great. It's not enough that Mr. MEMEME has to insert

himself again and again to feed that outsize ego of his.

Now, with no one paying him any attention, we're going to have to suffer through his whining about it?

JUST. GO. AWAY. RALPH.

[texasleo]

95. 100k votes in Florida. Never forget, never again.

[Uncle Joe]

98. Ralph, you did a lot of good things early on, but in 2000 you went after the single political leader...

most responsible for empowering the American People like they had never been empowered before. The Internet is the greatest technological leap for democratic forces since the Gutenberg Press and you were too caught up in yourself to recognize the man and what he stood for. You equated Al Gore to that corrupt incompetent in the White House!

In part I don't blame you for being brain washed about the big picture, the corporate media waged a non-stop smear campaign of lies against Al Gore because he was the primary political champion of the Internet; and by extension the First Amendment, while they simultaneously puffed your chances up because they knew it would hurt him politically. They gave him the Prometheus Treatment, but you need to understand something, this is no cult about Al Gore, the people recognize one of their greatest champions even if you can't.

If the people stand any chance whatsoever against the overwhelming powers of the corporations and their corporate media propaganda arm, it's because of the Internet and it's because of unselfish, visionary leadership as exemplified by Al Gore.

Personally I hope the Congress shows the grace of allowing you to testify, the people need all the voices against the entrenched interests, they can get, but it would nice if you could show a little grace in return.

[thewiseguy]

101. STFU Nader

[Mz Pip]

103. I don't blame Nader

I blame the fools that voted for him because they felt the need to make some kind of "statement."

THere may not be a huge difference between the parties - except for choice, healthcare, the war, affirmative action, workers rights. But if those differences are worth another 4 years of a Republican in the White House, knock yourselves out. Then when you come to, go fuck yourselves.

[texshelters]

104. The only thing more tired than Democrats blaming Nader is

Nader whining about it. It wasn't Nader's fault that the election was stolen, Gore capitulated, and that Gore couldn't even win his home state.

Get over it Ralph. Some people will never learn. Apparently you are one of them.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[Lasher]

121. There's plenty of blame to go around.

That doesn't mean Nader gets a pass.

[Danmel]

105. Ralph is either delusional

Or a seriously maninulative liar.

He was the difference in Florida- without him there would be no Bush v Gore, bloodless coup, war in Iraq, massive debt, environmental degradation, Chief justice Roberts, Justice Alito, Homeland Security, Abu Graib...I could go on all night

He should be hung by his toenails and pecked to death by birds.

[Solon]

106. I can just feel the love for democracy on this thread...

:eyes:

[jespwrs]

107. Why doesn't anybody think

Gore or the democratic senators (who refused to sponsor congressional attempts to challenge the election results) or the supreme court or Katherine Harris or any of the many other people who actually had a direct role in the capitulation of the presidency should "be hung by their toenails"?

[riverdale]

117. George Carlin was right. People are stupid.

Evidence of it is abundant right here amongst all the Nader-haters. Never mind the facts. Never mind what is happening right now in 2008. With Dems in total control, Congress is giving immunity to the telcos and Bush for unknown-as-yet crimes.
But y'all would rather participate in another pointless, and wrong, two minutes hate on Nader.

[Downtown Hound]

114. So Ralph, you like Republicans now?

Then by all means Repukes, you can have him. You have had him for a number of years now, but let him fully become one of you and show the last few of his airy fairy cultist supporters that he has left what really lies in that petty and small minded man's soul.

Fuck you Nader. You haven't done shit for progressives or the anti war movement except praise Republicans and bash Dems. You're a loser and nobody gives a fuck about you anymore.

[FloridaJudy]

115. STF Up, Ralph. eom

[Kickin_Donkey]

118. Hey, Ralph ...

:boring:

[depakid]

119. To all the irrational Nader haters and obsessives: answer me this

How many egregious pieces of legislation did the Democrats block over the past 14 years?

How many did they legitimize and enable?

How many nomiminees- no matter HOW UTTERLY UNQUALIFIED or CORRUPT or DISHONEST did the Democrats block?

And- how about that FISA Bill?

Nice one, eh?

[sofa king]

123. Just look at the results.

What positive thing--what single thing good--has happened to America, our environment, or the world ecology since 2000? Well, that's the choice made by all those Nader voters, whether they want to admit it or not. They chose, they chose wrong, we're all suffering for it, and all those voters are just as responsible as the assholes who still roll around with "W"'s on their SUVs.

Nader's defense and those of his 2000 supporters is very similar to the defenses offered by a certain eight-year old girl I know. When she breaks something, "it broke." When she loses something, "it got lost." In both cases, the first and most important component of the defense is the removal of personal culpability, with the damage and the results being equivalently minimized.

And yet, shit's still broken, shit's still lost, and everyone has to suffer for it. So fuck you, 2000 Nader voters, and fuck you, Ralph Nader. Come back when shit is fixed.

[Mark E. Smith]

125. Sure Ralph

What ever you say.

[pberq]

130. to all the Nader haters on this thread

you are the victim of a decades long smear campaign. See the Chris Hedges article quoted upthread.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070226_an_unreasonably_principled_man

". . .But the corporations grew tired of Nader’s activism. They mounted a well-oiled campaign to destroy him."


Corporate America has successfully demonized Ralph Nader - a major threat to their bottom lines - why should they have to care about consumer rights when money is to be made?

[rexcat]

132. Sorry but I support Democrats, not independents...

for president of the USA. Nader has his positives but there is no way he is going to win any presidential election. In Florida he did make a difference in outcome as did the republicans who stole the election with the help of the Supreme Court.

I support him for his advocacy but not as a presidential candidate!

[pberq]

133. That's fine

I'm not suggesting that we as Democrats support Nader for President.

It's the demonization by corporate interests that is the problem. This is bigger than Democrat and Republican. It's about the corporate takeover of America, to the detriment of the vast majority of the population.

This corporate takeover has extended into the Democratic Party (although not as much as the Repubs), and it was Gore's capitulation to corporate interests back in 2000 that had more to do with his losing the election than Nader's candidacy.

Again, I ask people to please read the Chris Hedges article cited above.

[sam kane]

134. Republican. nt.

nt.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

135. poor, poor Nader,

:cry:


I'm surprised he hasn't tried that shit this year to get the votes from Obama

[Vogon_Glory]

136. No Way, Ralph. I'm Still Blaming You

No way I'm going to stop holding you responsible for handing the 2000 election over to George W. Bush. Your failure to research and publicize George W. Bush's record as Texas Governor aided nobody but Karl Rove and the Republicans. Your little ego trip drained voters away from vice president Gore helped Katherine Harris and George's brother to hand Florida's electoral votes over to George. There may be more than one person to blame for the outcome of the 2000 election, but you deserve every bit of the blame you feel you've been getting.