Companies Suppress Antidepressant Data

[hatrack]

Makers of popular antidepressants such as Paxil, Zoloft and Effexor have refused to disclose the details of most clinical trials involving depressed children, denying doctors and parents crucial evidence as they weigh fresh fears that such medicines may cause some children to become suicidal.

The companies say the studies are trade secrets. Researchers familiar with the unpublished data said the majority of secret trials showed that children taking the medicines did not get any better than children taking dummy pills.

Although the drug industry practice of suppressing data unfavorable to its products is legal, doctors and advocates say such secrecy distorts the scientific record.

"We need a journal of negative findings," said Darrel Regier, director of the American Psychiatric Assn.'s division of research, who believes the drugs save children's lives. "The probability of those negative findings being published is far less than the chances of positive studies -- even journals are not interested in negative studies."

EDIT

http://www.ljworld.com/section/worldnation/story/159595

[twilight]

1. well I don't know about children BUT ...

I've taken every one of those drugs listed - they all made me sick and depressed/suicidal. Of course I guess a genuine adult/human doesn't count in these "studies". To think they are considering selling Prozac over-the-counter is a very frightening reality and they hand out hefty supplies of samples at the doctor's offices besides.

I wouldn't want any child of mine taking these drugs. They are powerful and the effect of the drug is unknown until taken.

I believe that this class of drugs is not only dangerous, but also very toxic.

Sorry about that lovers of these drugs ...

:dem: :kick:

[eileen_d]

3. Well, I've taken both Prozac and Effexor

I don't LOVE the drugs but they have helped me. I'm sorry they didn't help you, but I'd like the drugs to be available to other people who might benefit from them.

I do think antidepressants are probably overprescribed, and their use should be closely monitored for each individual for negative side effects. And so I think the data referenced in the original article should be made available.

[twilight]

5. yes I agree with you

Some people do find great help from these drugs but the patients are often not carefully monitored for dangerous side effects. They hand them out like candy! :grr:

I took another one of this class of drugs called "Serzone" and it gave me the "rare" side effect of visual trails. Those visual trails lasted for a long time after I quit that drug.

Like I said, I've tried them all and I find them to be very scary.

Best of luck with them in any event.

twilight

:dem:

[scarlet_owl]

37. I was on Serzone too.

It really screwed with my head. I would "lose time", if that makes any sense. It is hard to describe, but I wouldn't be able to account for spans of time. My doctor took me off of it after about three months and it stopped. He said that it was a rarer side effect, but it wasn't unheard of.

[Tommy_Douglas]

2. I'm taking Effexor...

I'm doing better not sure what to attribute to the drug itself, but I used to have awful suicide dreams and such and those stopped which my doctor said was the meds...

[mhr]

4. Learned Optimism By Martin Seligman, Best Book On Depression Seen

eom

[David__77]

6. What's needed is concurrent therapy sessions.

Without the guidance of a clinical professional, these mediacations do not achieve optimal results, and sometimes side effects cannot be properly monitored.

[denverbill]

7. This is outrageous. And unsurprising.

Where the fuck is the FDA? Americans are paying out BILLIONS for drugs every year, and we have only the companies to rely on for proof that the drugs actually work. It's outrageous.

All we need is a fucking national database. Doctors could enter the condition and medication prescribed, as well as the outcome. In a matter of months we'd know which drugs work and which don't, and eliminate wasteful, useless spending on drugs that are nothing more than placebos. Of course, the drug industry and it's partner in crime, the FDA, won't go for that. The American system is a joke.

[DBoon]

8. All these studies should be publicly available

Failure to publish should be a violation of regulations, with some serious sanctions attached.

I wonder how many of these "trade secret" studies were done at state universities or otherswise directly or indirectly involved government funding.

[NashVegas]

9. The REAL Story is Still Buried

Our universities should be banned from corporate-sponsored research.

[Nlighten1]

10. Paxil almost killed my twin brother.

He became suicidal when he was on it and almost jumped off of a very tall building...

[hang a left]

11. I will speak here, even though I hesitate.

There are people who absolutely need these drugs. I am one of them, I have a severe form of depressive disorder that is drug resistant. I have been on paxil, zoloft, wellbutrin, effexor, lexapro, and various cocktails of these and others. Not all medicine works for everyone, it is hit and miss. Paxil worked for a long time, but then quit working. Antidepressents have changed my life. There have been times in my life when I have been completely non-functional because of acute depression. I self-medicated for years with alcohol to allieviate panic attacks. I will agree that they are over prescribed, and I would never give them to my kids. MD's should not be prescribing them and handing them out. You need to be under the supervision of a psychiatrist and monitored. There is my buckfifty.

[NoKingGeorge]

14. My wife would go back to work to support my Paxil script.

I have been taking Paxil for a number of years. It changed my life. I do not know when or why I had been depressed. Being depressed for many years you develop excellent coping mechonisms that may mask a problem. Why learn to live with a chemical imbalance when you do not have to? Please find out if restoring a chemical deficit could make you happier.( I cannot afford health care even though I work as a consultant,so I pay a lot for it but my wife said she would go to work rather than have me revert.Hey why doesn't she go to work anyway and just give me cash)

[reprobate]

21. NKG, it did the same for me.

Long term, and I'm talking 40 yrs, depression is something that, if you haven't experience it you can't understand it. I've heard 'just look on the bright side for a change', and wanted to spit at them.

Someone without a seratonin deficit just does not know what it does to you.

BTW, paxil is now available generic as paroxitine. It's about 20-25% cheaper than the name brand.

[Nlighten1]

26. Don't get me wrong...

I agree with you...I have been taking Prozac for 3 years now and I probably will be taking it forever...

[Adapter44]

23. Why was he put on it?

Depression perhaps? You do realize people with depression eventually can become suicidal, don't you?

[Nlighten1]

27. Really?

I wasn't aware of that...

[Adapter44]

28. Which is probably why

you leaped to the conclusion paxil = causes suicide. Insatead of depression = causes suicide.

[jus_the_facts]

12. pharmacutical companies are OUT OF CONTROL..LEGAL drug pushers....

....is ALL THEY ARE..they're doing NOTHING for the benefit of PEOPLE anymore...just their BOTTOM LINES and for their LOBBIES to the GOV"T....they're out of control....I was watchin' a PBS show last weekend about the miraculous discovery of mapping the human genome and how science will be able to make us live longer healthier lives.....BEYOND BULLSHIT...in conjunction with the pharmacutical companies they'll learn to manipulate the population in all kinds of ways to keep us dependant on them except NOW they can do it in such a way as to turn on genes to MAKE you SICKER....all this talk of how meds from other countries could be dangerous....MORE BS....as the SAME companies SUPPLY the SAME drugs to Canada and Mexico....all they do now is LIE...CHEAT AND STEAL....and KILL....IMO they are CRIMINAL DRUG PUSHERS and should be treated as such!!! :puke: :evilfrown:

....as far as Zoloft goes....I was prescribed it with another drug Resperdol.....I had the most horrific reaction to them...EXTREME PARANOIA and ANXIETY......so from my own personal experience...theres a HUGE difference from feelin' real down and discouraged and unhappy......than being clinically depressed......and it's CRIMINAL that these drugs are givin' on a whim from doctors that refuse to spend the time to DIAGNOSE instead of quick fixes they're PAID to give their patients from the PHARMACUTICAL INDUSTRY......IT'S CRIMINAL what they are doing to us!!!!!! x(

[Malva Zebrina]

15. I agree, there is a difference between being clinically depressed and

feeling unhappy, sad , pesimmistic at times, but still able to function in daily life. Clinical depression is indeed quite different from that

[rexcat]

17. That is some broad sweeping statement you have made...

There are more sides to this issue than what I am seeing in this thread. I do agree that some of the practices of the Pharma companies are way less than ethical. On the other hand there are some wonderful advancements in treatment modalities because of the clinical research done by the Pharma companies.

When it comes to children it is well known that they react to drugs differently than adults. That is why clinical trials need to be conducted in children to see if they are safe and effective, or not! Our wonderful US Supreme Court told the FDA that the Pediatric Rule was not valid (thanks to the Pharma companies opposition to the rule, and I might add by the conservatives in the Congress) and the FDA had to stop requiring drug studies in the pediatric setting. Fortunately a majority in the Congress agreed with the FDA and Congress did the right thing and has changed the laws to reinstate the Pediatric Rule.

I am an advocate of having negative data published but that is not the norm in the industry. The FDA is usually not privy to most of the negative data unless there are very serious adverse events (hospitalization, death, etc.) in the trials. Usually what happens is the drug is not found to work and the New Drug Application (NDA) is withdrawn, end of story.

It should also be noted that only about 1 in 20 drugs that go to clinical trial ever make it to market. It is a costly process to get a new drug to market. The sad thing is about half the money goes to marketing (those fancy advertisements found in your favorite magazine). It was not until 1994-1995 (after the repukes took over the US House that advertising of prescription medications were allowed to the general public. IMO a big mistake.

One last point, the Pharma industry is the most regulated industry in the US as it should be.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

30. I confess that I find the consumer advertising obnoxious,...

,...to me, marketing prescription drugs is the worst form of pill-pushing because the industry is trying to convince uninformed people to engage in self-prescription. Plus, the industry glosses over the fact that these medications ARE addictive and it really irks me that they assert otherwise. In my opinion, this form of advertising should be prohibited because it is simply too easily subject to abuse and too prone to leading to misguided decisions.

Furthermore, the prognosis, let alone treatment of psychological distresses/diseases is still in a stage of infancy. Sure, we've come a long way in the last fifty years, thank God!!! But this area of science is still quite the hit-and-miss and it may never master the complexities of the human mind short of controlling it which is not necessarily a "good" thing.

I also believe it is important to note that approximately 88 million American citizens *WOW* in this country are being treated for some form of psychological issue or another (and that doesn't include those who refuse to obtain needed treatment - like the freon neocons *LOL*). There is "something" wrong with that picture,...of like nearly one-third of our population suffering from mental weather. Don't you think?

On a personal note, I had the experience of being misdiagnosed with depression (when I was expressing "within normal range" human emotion considering the context of life circumstances and fully functioning notwithstanding), being treated with antidepressants that landed me in more hospitalizations within six months than I have had in fifteen years (and suddenly, miraculously recovering within ten days after I independently decided to quit all medications), and resulting in my pursuit of masters studies in clinical psychology. My background leads me to the conclusion that far, far greater caution should be demanded of doctors, clinicians, counselors and pharmaceutical companies. The area of "treatment" is one area I view as being too "liberul" *LOL*; yet, the applied "prognoses" are way too constrictive with respect to the realm or range of what is "normal".

With respect to the topic, I sincerely had no idea that those studies were kept from public view. Hell, I thought drug companies were required to make studies public. I guess my misguided assumption was based upon behavioral statistics courses which involved studying real-life numbers of various psychological tests (all of which I am now far more skeptical, as well). So, this is like,..."news" to me. Moreover, in my view, the "trade secrets" defense is complete BS. They can easily create a publication of studies without specifying the content of the drug itself. The assertion of "trade secrets" is a red flag, to me, regardless of the well-(re)guarded FDA.

So, that's my take.

[Doctor Panacea]

32. I disagree

Quote: It's CRIMINAL that these drugs are givin' on a whim from doctors that refuse to spend the time to DIAGNOSE instead of quick fixes they're PAID to give their patients from the PHARMACUTICAL INDUSTRY......IT'S CRIMINAL what they are doing to us!!!!!!

Speaking as a physician who prescribes these drugs, I can tell you that there are NO payments from drug companies for prescribing antidepressants. The drug companies leave samples of their medications in the office. The physician is free to try these in patients, or not. And, believe me, in a nation where 42 million people do not have health insurance, these samples are life savers, literally.

I can tell you that, in most cases, these medicines work well in adults and young teens. I cannot offer personal testimony about children younger than twelve or thirteen.

I have seen people saved from debilitating anxiety, depression, and post-traumatic stress with these medicines. A year of intensive therapy will not even begin to compare to a week of Lexapro (escitalopram). Therapy along with medication is desirable, yes. But these medicines are true wonder drugs. And, yes, some people do not respond to a particular SSRI but will respond remarkably well to another one.

[jus_the_facts]

34. so are you saying that you DO in fact get paid for prescribing other kinds

of drugs....besides samples only get people to BUY in the long run anyway so there's not much difference....also to my knowledge there's not any generic equal to anti-depressants either. Personally I feel that the entire health care profession is in collusion with the pharma industry and insurance companies....and it is in my personal opinion that it's criminal that the system continues to inflate the costs so that only a select few can afford healthcare.

[cosmicaug]

13. Better link.

That story has been chopped up quite a bit. Try the original Washington Post article at http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A58130-2004Jan28?language=printer for a better link.

[Robb]

16. Gosh

...a self-policing private enterprise that doesn't work to the benefit of consumers?

Whoda thunkit? :eyes:

[earthman dave]

18. I took effexor for a short while

And when I came off it, I got seriously depressed (for a short while). Thing is, my symptoms were never really depression, more agoraphobia and mood swings, but the stuff is odd.

I still get a kind of hard-to-describe "zing" in my mouth sometimes (kind of like a cross between a metallic taste and a small shock), and when I was taking effexor, a lot of ideas seemed to appear from nowhere and escape via my mouth before asking my brain's permission.

SSRIs are not very well understood, AFAIK, so I can easily believe that they have undocumented side effects (along with the documented ones, which are scary enough).

[noonwitch]

19. Children should not be treated for depression with long term use of drugs

Short term, in serious cases, but there is usually an underlying environmental factor affecting their depression that needs to be dealt with. Sometimes there are family issues that need to be addressed without medication by a counselor. Sometimes, the kid is depressed over school issues and the parents and teachers need to develop a plan to address it.
I know that Prozac, Paxcil and Zoloft have been miracle drugs for some, especially adults. I had a client who was prescribed Zoloft after years of depression, and she had a job and a handle on her life within weeks of starting the meds. Anyone, kid or adult who is taking these meds needs to be monitored closely by the professional who prescribed it. I've heard reports that some people react badly to this group of meds and go on to commit suicide, like Del Shannon, the singer.

[mrdmk]

20. I appreciate peoples candor on this issue

Here is the problem with these drugs, the administrators

<snip>
The U.S. psychiatric establishment largely supports the use of antidepressant medicines in children, with many arguing that abandoning the drugs would lead to more suicides in children with depression. However, its critics, including consumer advocates and some psychiatrists, question whether mainstream psychiatry is biased by widespread financial ties to the pharmaceutical industry.
<snip>

I have personally dealt with depression with cognitive therapy which just fine for me.

The area, which is of concern, is when an Ex-girlfriend went on a Prozac therapy and became worst off with this drug (anger, not wanting to sleep, unable to focus, confusion, and excreta, excreta) to the point of straining our relationship. We were able to change doctors at which point she needed to be admitted into a hospital. Her change in behavior was reported to the new doctor and he took her off of Prozac. About three weeks later I had notice a return of behavior when she was on Prozac and asked her about it. She told me that asked to put back onto Prozac because she felt better off with it.

Once again she change psych doctors (not a big deal because the two doctors were business partners) because the Ex felt better working with a female doctor. After a period of time there needed to be some change I felt and had a talk with this female doctor. By this time the Ex was on a cocktail Psych meds plus pain relievers. My Ex’s condition was becoming worse and had asked her battery of doctors to communicate with each other to come up with a new plan for her drug therapy. All of the doctors had spoken to each other except for Psychiatrist. The Psychiatrist and I had a conversation with each other and the two things that came out of this meeting were: 1) The Psychiatrist did not have time to talk with the other doctors and saw no need to do so, 2) That I needed to get off of the “ the Psych meds are the problem and to come back and talk to me when “The Ex”, is off the pain relievers”. The real plan was to get “The Ex” off of all meds, clean up her system and reconsider what drugs will work to improve “The Ex.’s” condition. This plan was not going to be invoked because of the Psychiatrist.

Of course “The Ex” was helping in any way what so ever. Both the Psych Meds and pain relievers are highly addictive and “The EX” wanted nothing to do with dealing with her drug addiction. This went on for one more year when I had to give up for my own sanity. Now I hear that “The EX” is pushing a shopping cart on the street and is very incoherent talking to herself.

As far as the drug companies not passing on information, this does not surprise me what so ever considering what I have dealt with. Mental Health industry is a soft science that means that there very little hard set rules. 2 + 2 = 4 does not always apply to the Mental Health industry and these people are not willing to admit this hard fact.

[Adapter44]

22. Oh come on people

I was put in a hospital once (re suicide) and I have been on ALL of these drugs so I think I can speak from experience.

A LOT of people want to make the claim anti-depressants themselves cause suicide. In fact people I knew even told me it MUST be the drugs doing it. (I found these claims amusing at the time because unknowing to them I had stopped taking for some time)

The thing is - I was getting progressively worse torwards suicide which is how it is with the MAJORITY of people. Sometimes these drugs can not stop such a descent.

So (ignorant) people see a person get progressively worse after they are put on anti-depressant and they say "well gee it must be the anti-depressant instead of the mental illness making them worse!"

Let me tell you something in genral - unless you have experienced depression and been on the brink of suicide you have NO idea what you are talking about in the matter.

Maybe your kid is going to commit suicide. Guess what? You can either try and anti-depressant or not. If you don't try it you can be reasonably assured (depending on the case) your kid will be dead in a matter of time. Or you can try to decrease the risk and try an anti-depressant. Maybe they will still commit suicide though. Doesn't mean it was the drug that caused it.

If you want to help someone who is depressed do them a favor and actually learn something first. Ignorant "it must be the anti-depressant, the food he's eating, or the boogy man" claims do nothing. But of course if you want to be in denial about reality until your kid is dead go ahead. At least you'll have one less illogical thing to blame it on.

Factually I don't see how any study can claim an anti-depressant to increase risk of suicide. The drugs are only given to people at risk to begin with. With those people you have one of two possible outcomes 1. they will kill themselves or 2. they will not. If they kill themselves on the drug it's not like you can say "Ok, bring him back to life and let's see how he does with out it". There is no basis for comparison.

[justjones]

25. Exactly.....

That's exactly how my psychiatrist explained it to me. If someone is taking anti-depressants, it is likely they were at a higher risk of suicide BEFORE taking the drug....you can't know the person would not have committed suicide if they were not taking the drug, just like you can't know a person who wasn't on an anti-depressants would not have committed suicide if they were on some kind of anti-depressant.

[Bozvotros]

35. I have worked in the field for 25 years

My understanding of the risk of suicide with antidepressants, is the risk is greatest in the first month or two. As the drug starts to work, the depressed patient may come out of his blues enough to be able to plan and carry out a suicide successfully. When a patient is severely depressed their negativity, listlessness or loss of interest extends to the point where they can't even get it together to take their own life. This is why psychotherapy is critical with the use of these meds.

Next, a bout of clinical depression is a frightening experience that has been well explained here and in other books. Essentially there is overwhelming negative feelings and thoughts about life and especially your own life. The person looks around their life and can't think of a single reason why they shouldn't snuff theirselves out. It sort of like being attacked on the inside by a pack of freshly fed totally insane ditto monkeys who won't let you make a single point....only worse.

A friend of mine who is a neuropsychologist told me that he thinks that many mental illnesses may eventually be linked to an individuals sensitivity to certain hormones in the body. Anyone who has ever taken a big ascending dose of prednisone may have experienced short term mania or depression. Menstral cycle mood changes, menopause and testosterone fluctations are known to fuel rages or depressions or rapidly changing moods. We really know very little yet about brain chemistry and how the brain processes and adapts to emotional experiences.

The highly profitable psychopharmacology strategy is essentially to do a big cluster bombing of certain brain areas, affecting certain neurotransmitters and just taking what you get from it. Sort of like bombing Baghdad to rubble trying to take out Saddam. But good psychiarists will try to minimize collateral damage and by adjusting the dose, use the least medication necessary to affect a helpful change. My experience has been that sometimes patients and doctors are overoptimistic about what these drugs can do. No panaceas... although 30-40 oxycontin a day would probably come close.

The thing about kids is that big pharma KNOWS that antidepressants don't work like they do with adults. And that the kid's depression can get worse. If you have a child under 20 or so on these SSRI's like Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Lexapro, etc you should keep close tabs on them.

Right now every epilepsy drug on the planet is being used to treat adults, adolescents and even children with Bipolar Disorder. They even invented a Type 2 Bipolar that makes it fit a huge group of people. These drugs, with only a very few exceptions, have never been formally clinically tested on these populations...yet they are used over and over based on "experience."
Oops went on too long. Must be the meds I am taking.

edit: to moderate anti-psychiatric skepticism.

[Ilsa]

31. I have a son who wouldn't be in school without his meds.

He has a worse condition than depression, though, but his meds help control his behavior and lift his mood so he can participate, at least marginally in school with autism.

I don't know what I would do if they took them away or made them really hard to get. Seriously, I don't know if I could go on. My sons meds have saved him and me.

[sendero]

33. Prescription drugs...

... like street drugs, can be used and they can be abused.

While I think that this data should be made public, the general bashing of these drugs is unwarranted IMHO.

People who actually need these drugs have quite a different take on things. It is true, SSRIs are probably overprescribed. For example, if you are going through a divorce, almost any doctor will prescribe them for you. But that is a "situational" depression that is best resolved thru time and reflection IHMO.

On the other hand, there are a lot of people out there with brain chemistry disorders that are more or less permanent. It does seem like there probably more of them than there used to be, but lets face it, there are lots of possible enviromental (chemical pesticides, preservatives and other CRAP we eat) reasons for that.

Yeah, the drug companies make me as sick as they do you, and frankly they are just asking to be tightly controlled sometime in the future. But to dismiss the efficacy of these drugs is a mistake.

[scarlet_owl]

36. I have been taking Effexor for two years and I hate it.

It stopped working after about six months of use, but yet I am still on it. I was not informed when I began taking it that I would become dependent on it. I have tried coming off of it before and it almost killed me. I was physically sick and I got horribly depressed and violent. I would have these strange "zaps" in my head and a horrible feeling in my stomach. They are going to have to take me off of it soon because I can't afford it anymore, so I have a hard road ahead of me. I have also gained close to sixty pounds in the two years that I have been taking Effexor. I have tried to get in on a class action suit, but I wasn't eligible because I didn't commit suicide(WTF?). I have been in contact with lots of people like me out there who have been suffering because of this drug. I asked about the side effects. They said nothing about the withdrawal symptoms.

On edit: I guess I should describe why I am on this medication. I am clinically depressed with bi-polar disorder and PTSD. I have been on just about everything out there and nothing else has made me feel this horrible. I am currently on, in addition to Effexor, Lexapro, Ativan, and Trazedone. I cannot function without medication. I understand that Effexor can help some people, and that is great. But it isn't right for everyone and it can be very damaging to some.

[gate of the sun]

38. if you supress an antidepressent does that make you depressed?