U. S. deserter loses bid to stay in Canada

[Freddie Stubbs]

Source: UPI

VANCOUVER, British Columbia, July 15 (UPI) -- A Canadian judge in Vancouver ordered a U.S. military deserter sent back to his U.S. Army base in Fort Knox, Ky.

Late Monday, Justice Anne Mactavish of the Federal Court of Canada agreed with federal prosecutors that Robin Long, 25, would receive fair treatment on his return home, the Globe and Mail reported.

Prosecutors noted how Long voluntarily joined the Army in July 2003, had never been deployed to Iraq and hadn't applied to be recognized as a conscientious objector while in the United States.

After beginning training to be a tank commander, Long said he changed his mind about the war in Iraq and he fled to the province of Ontario in 2005. In 2006, he applied for refugee status, which was denied in February, and an appeal was denied. He moved to British Columbia last summer, the report said.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/07/15/U_S_deserter_loses_bid_to_stay_in_Canada/UPI-36541216127791/

[slackmaster]

1. The best time to establish CO status in modern times is BEFORE there is a draft

Getting your thoughts straight on the matter just MIGHT stop you from enlisting in the military.

[Freddie Stubbs]

5. Or perhaps before you volunteer to join the military

[Peace Patriot]

8. You and Slackmaster are sure cruel. You remind me of bad parents, who choose

a kid's worst moments to lecture them on how stupid they are.

[slackmaster]

10. The minimum age to enlist in the military without parental consent is 18

I know something about conscientious objection. My grandfather went to prison rather than enlisting in the Army during World War I. CO status was not recognized in a consistent manner back then, and the Mennonite Church was not willing to send someone by rail to help him make his case when he needed it.

Draft boards had tremendous power, and were not accountable to anyone. After the war my grandfather was pardoned by President Wilson.

Enlisting in the military without being willing to pick up a weapon and fight is beyond stupid. Now, even without a draft, it is possible to establish yourself as a conscientious objecter pre-emptively. That way if there ever is a draft, all you would have to do is show some paperwork to stay out of the service. If you enlist (especially voluntarily) then change your mind and refuse to follow orders to deploy, you are a deserter.

[Peace Patriot]

12. I understand your advice--and it's good to warn young people that they need to

establish CO credentials now, before there is a Draft (for there likely will be one--Exxon Mobil is plumb out of cannon fodder). (I wonder if that's one of the real reasons behind their slack immigration policies--'green card' and illegal immigrants can be drafted). But I would also warn young people that many of the rules and criteria have been changed, in order to deny CO status, and most of the exemptions that once existed, and a new bunch of treaties were signed--with Canada, for instance--to deny any exit path to war resisters. (I'm not sure what the treaty with Mexico is--but I do know that MOST countries WILL extradite--which was not the case during Vietnam). They have tightened the screws considerably.

I know 18 year olds that might as well be in diapers, they are so young, emotionally, and have so little experience of the world. To just call them stupid, for signing up, is...inadequate. Why do they sign up? Often they have been lied to, by the recruiters. They have no job and no prospects. They had a poor high school education. Their moms and dads have no jobs. The family is poor and desperate, and they don't know any better. And these conditions have been deliberately inflicted upon them by the Bush Junta. Why emphasize their young, ignorant haplessness, rather than discussing the genocidal perps who have sent youngsters to slaughter a million innocent people--the war profiteers and those behind them, here and in Canada--the politicians, the judges, the corporations now hiring in Cambodia, Vietnam, India and China?

I don't agree with your emphasis. To my mind, anybody who turns against this war is a hero. I don't care how they got in. People learn and grow and change. Maybe it took them from age 18 to age 20 to grow up. The privileged get time to do that--to grow up. The unprivileged don't. Some get sickened, once there. They are slave labor now, forced into multiple tours of great length. They see what it's all about, and they can't go along with it any more. Others wake up sooner. They sign up, then they learn stuff from other soldiers, from reading. Are you going to blame a kid for making a stupid mistake? I wouldn't blame somebody for making multiple stupid mistakes, over many years, and then, suddenly waking up, in Iraq, or on a brief visit home, between lengthy tours, and they cannot stomach what they've done, or what they've seen others do, any longer.

Anyone who wakes up to this war, at any point, and starts resisting, deserves praise and honor. Your attitude seems to be that, because you know something about the rules, and the realities, anybody who doesn't deserves no sympathy. I just don't see it that way. Again, I agree with your warning, and I hope you keep issuing it, many places and often. No child is safe. This Congress could call up a Draft tomorrow--they are fucking bad news, all of them (s)elected by Diebold, ES&S and brethren and their 'trade secret' voting machine code--but they'd likely wait until after the (s)election in November. Their approval rating went below 10% recently, and could drop off the charts. And Diebold & co. need something to work with. They can't (s)elect people with a minus zero approval rating (can they? --actually, they can quite easily (s)elect whomever they please).

As for Obama--in 1964, I voted for the peace candidate (my first vote for president). Lyndon Baines Johnson. And what I got for that peace vote was 2 million people slaughtered in Southeast Asia, and over 55,000 dead U.S. soldiers. Lesson: Beware of Democrats bearing peace.

So, yeah, spread the word. Get your kids immunized now, with CO documentation, but don't trust that either. It probably won't do any good. They'll just end up in a war zone without a gun. Best to get them out of the country, if you can find one that won't extradite a draftee (Cuba?). (I think Cuba did say that it would welcome Iraq War resisters.)

And have some pity for this generation of poor kids, who will never benefit from the oil contracts they have been fooled into defending with their lives.

[Wabbajack_]

14. A draft in today's america?

imagine the non-compliance rate. 70-80%.

[Thothmes]

15. Just out of idol curiosity,

What was the empatis for young people to enlist in the armed services during the 1990s when absolutly all of those dire economic and educational conditions did not exist in this country.

[Freddie Stubbs]

18. This 'kid' was 20 years old when he signed up

He was old enough to know what he was getting himself into.

[PDJane]

2. Damn.

Most Canadians do NOT agree with the judge. The current occupant of the PM's seat needs to be OUT.

[sui generis]

3. well let me guess

applying for refugee status is not considered a de facto application for conscientious objector status?

Normally I would say this guy committed to being in the military, and I'm not sure we even still recognize conscientious objector status except in times of involuntary service.

I have a feeling this person will not be treated fairly. I also have a low opinion of the military in pursuing this as far as they have. How much money did they spend on this?

There is a point of no return at which you are committed, but it's getting pretty damn fuzzy for me when a recruiter is essentially allowed to tell you anything in at all to entice you to sign up.

I'm not all the way to sympathizing with the guy either though, but I don't think making an example out of him as they almost certainly intend to do is going to help induce more enrollments.

[slackmaster]

6. CO status is very much alive, and in the event of a draft it will be critically important

Many good resources are available on the Web.

http://www.objector.org/girights/gettingout/conscientious-objection.html

[SpiralHawk]

4. You mean they are sending Commander AWOL Bush back to the USA?

I thought the Deserter-in-Chief was safe in his Homeland. But now the USA must suffer him further?

Oh Lord, have we not suffered enuf?

[Peace Patriot]

7. Here's a very informative site about the war resisters in Canada:

http://www.couragetoresist.org/x/

[Peace Patriot]

9. Anyone who turns against unjust, genocidal war is my hero!

I don't care what he or she promised the goddamn U.S. military when he or she was barely out of diapers--or at any time. The perpetrators of this godawful war deserve no loyalty, no obedience, no good faith and no service from anybody.

This event is very saddening. I'd like to think that, somewhere in the world, justice and human rights prevail, even if we can no longer have them here, where our Constitution is in shreds, and our entire political establishment has committed treason, as well as heinous murder on a scale that staggers the imagination, especially given that it was entirely without justification, and solely for greed.

It is...yet another disappointment that Canadian war profiteers rule things there, as they do here. It's presumptuous, I guess, to expect some other government to save these young people, when we have so lost control of our own government. But still, one hopes.

These war resisters are the most courageous of our people. Physical courage is admirable--whether by soldiers or others. But moral courage is harder, much harder. I applaud Robin Long, and the other war resisters in Canada. Kudos and laurel wreaths to them! I hope that one day we are able to award them the medals they deserve for the highest and most perilous form of patriotism--refusing unlawful orders.

[slackmaster]

11. Objecting to A war is not conscientious objection

To be a CO you have to object to ALL wars.

[Peace Patriot]

13. Good point! There is nothing in our law any more to protect us from genocidal presidents.

You can object to all war, and then TRY to get CO status. But if the president decides we need somebody's else's oil, or their natural gas, or their fresh water, or just doesn't like the look of them--too democratic, too anti-corporate (I'm thinking of certain South American countries with lots of oil)--or whatever the Tyrant decides, you go, whether you like or not. They can't force you to carry a gun, but they sure as hell can put you in the line of fire. And if too many claim CO status, they will just start shooting people until their edict that you will defend their oil contracts is obeyed.

The new Draft law, after Vietnam, was designed to produce lots of cannon fodder with no exits. No one should count on getting CO status, no matter how much of a pacifist you are, and no matter if the entire Society of Friends turns up, en masse, at your hearing. And no one should count on being able to leave the country either. Most exits are blocked.

So, if you are of Draft age--and believe me, they can move that marker up or down, as needed--over the next decade or so, you are fucked. The sharks are in the water. One unjust war will likely be followed by more of the same. It's just too tempting, to any mortal emperor, to run the economy that way, on a permanent war footing, with multiple resource wars. Numerous tyrants have done so, throughout history. That's the way with tyrants. And Obama has no immunity against this disease. Promise 'em one thing; do another. How many times does this have to happen before we, as a people, address the basic problem--the out-of-control 'military-industrial complex,' now overseen by an out-of-control executive, in thrall to the war profiteers and global corporate predators?

This is no small problem we are talking about here--how to evade the Draft, as a pacifist, or in objection to another unjust war. This may be the chief affliction faced by several generations of American young people. The conditions are ripe for it. They have never been worse, in every way imaginable. Indeed, Obama may have no choice; more war may be the only way to keep the super-rich afloat, with some kind of remnant labor force to serve them, and the rest of the able-bodied off killing the poor of the earth, to get more oil, more natural gas, more minerals, more water, more trees (especially virgin hardwoods from the Amazon and from Asia for fine furniture and yacht fittings), more land, more slave labor, more 'third world' social programs to loot, etc.

Probably the best remedy is to join the resistance to Bushite corporate-controlled voting machines, and get that changed as quickly as possible. In my opinion, that IS the problem. Or the priority #1 problem. We have a whopping 70% of the American people opposed to this war, and wanting it ended, and a Congress that did the opposite--ESCALATED the war, and larded Bush/Cheney and assorted war profiteers with billions and billions more of our non-existent tax dollars, to get those oil contracts signed, along with agreements for permanent U.S. military protection of the contracts.

We longer have any control of our government. This was THE coup d'etat, in my view.

[davidthegnome]

16. This is awful

It was only a few years ago that I sat down with a couple recruiters myself. I was unemployed and couldn't find any stable work in my area. So I sat down with the army recruiters, took their tests, and they said I scored well enough.

Then they started asking me questions, such as whether or not I'd ever smoked marijuana. I had, as most people 20 and over have, in fact, I'd smoked it with my sister just a day before. They told me I'd have to lie about that - that the army doesn't want potheads, etc. They offered me something to flush out my system as well. The deceit bothered me, but I was pretty desperate, so I kept going.

The idea of a bonus - money to pay for school, a guaranteed paycheck.. well, for me, it all seemed worth it. I could get on with my life and move out of my parents house. Even if it meant going to war. Or so I'd thought.

Then the recruiter asked me what part of the army I was interested in. He suggested, perhaps, airborne infantry, "You wanna jump outta planes and shoot people?". The way he said it - the casual manner in which he talked about killing made me go cold all over. It was at that moment that I realized I didn't really have the nerve - nor the desire, to get involved. I hadn't believed in the war from the start, but I'd been desperate enough to attempt to enlist anyway.

I'm not a pacifist, if it came down to defending myself or my family, I believe I wouldn't hesitate to do what I had to. If we were involved in a just, necessary war, I may have signed on regardless of my misgivings. All things considered though, I decided I just couldn't do it.

I think the man realized as he said those words something of the effect it had on me. He quickly changed the manner in which he'd been talking and suggested using me in intelligence instead. In a place where I could sit comfortably and safely, blah blah blah. I wasn't really listening at that point. Truth is, I'm kind of a coward and was finally scared shitless at what I'd almost gotten into.

For weeks afterwards old friends from school called me - young men who'd joined the army (at the direction of recruiters, commanding officers, I don't know the details, but they knew I'd spoken with a recruiter). I felt even more cowardly than I really am as I refused, and when I see them now I still some times feel as if they are snickering behind my back. One of them in particular told me straight out that I was a weakling.

I still feel an obligation - and always have, to some extent, to join up. My people are dying out there, is my life worth anymore than theirs? No. My Grandfather was a Marine, a damned good one too, and I wonder what he'd think of me.

Still, I know this war isn't right. I know we aren't over there for just reasons. I know how this administration is fucking up our Country. So I feel sorry for that man, for I could have been him. And while I realize how wretched what we're doing over there is (both for our people and for theirs) I cannot help but feel cowardly for backing out.

I can only imagine how he feels. He has my sympathy - and I certainly hope he will be well treated. I wish he could have stayed safely in Canada.

[JohnyCanuck]

17. "My Grandfather was a Marine, a damned good one too"

So was General Smedley http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm">"War is a Racket" Butler.