Day of Reckoning? Super Rich Tax Cheats Outed by Bank Clerk

[DeSwiss]

Source: ABC News

Day of Reckoning? Super Rich Tax Cheats Outed by Bank Clerk
Technician in Liechtenstein Turns Over Names of Americans With Secret Bank Accounts

ABC News
By BRIAN ROSS and RHONDA SCHWARTZ
July 15, 2008



Hundreds of super-rich American tax cheats have, in effect, turned themselves in to the IRS after a bank computer technician in the tiny European country of Liechtenstein came forward with the names of US citizens who had set up secret accounts there, according to Washington lawyers investigating the scheme.

Heinrich Kieber, a bank computer technician in Liechtenstein came forward with the names of US citizens who had set up secret accounts there, according to Washington lawyers investigating the scheme. He has been branded a thief by the government of Liechtenstein for violating the country's bank secrecy laws.

The bank clerk, Heinrich Kieber, has been branded a thief by the government of Liechtenstein for violating the country's bank secrecy laws. He is now in hiding but scheduled to testify to the Senate's Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations Thursday via a video statement from a secret location, according to Congressional investigators.

Aides for committee chairman Carl Levin (D-MI) are scheduled to provide reporters with a background briefing later this morning in Washington on the committee's investigation of tax haven banks in Liechtenstein and Switzerland.

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5378080&page=1

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- The mouse that ROARED.....
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DeSwiss


http://www.atheisttoolbox.com/">The Atheist Toolbox

[Runcible Spoon]

1. oooooh good read!

it's nice to get some little sparkle of good news these days....Go Heinrich Kieber with his bad self!

[DeSwiss]

3. Well, if you like that, you're gonna love this!

Further in the article:

Kieber reportedly sold three CD's full of names and data to tax authorities to 12 countries including Germany, Great Britain, France, Italy and the United States. Tax authorities in Italy published the full list of names.

In Germany, the disclosures led to the arrests of several prominent CEO's on charges that had evaded millions of dollars in taxes. A former UBS private banker, Bradley Birkenfeld, has agreed to a plea deal and is reported to be cooperating with US authorities in bring charges against American citizens on tax evasion charges.

- It's probably too much to hope that Cheney and/or Dubya's names are on that CD. But its not gonna stop me from wishin.....

[Runcible Spoon]

11. someone PLEASE leak those lists..

gonna poke around Google just in case...

[emilyg]

59. Oh please - oh please!!!!

Let us know.

[RedShoes]

119. what about lex nexing the Italian web? (you know what I mean) nt

[ladywnch]

207. I doubt the lists will be able to be used in the US

they'll be declared as having been obtained by illegal means and therefore not admissible in court so the charges would have to be dropped.

[Bo]

278. I agree this man only "thought" these people were not paying taxes

He has no proof what so ever

[elehhhhna]

37. And the Vine Chaiman of UBS is...Phil Gramm! Tangled web there, boys.

[DeSwiss]

40. Oh hell!!!

I'd just love for Dr. Phil "Take 2 Aspirins And Stop Your Whining" Gramm's name to be on one of those CD's. YES!!!

- As ugly as his ass already is, he'd look even worse in orange....

[tabatha]

101. Phil Gramm was part of that bank at one time.

I'd love to see him whining.

[MetaTrope]

116. If the Italian tax authorities published the full list, can't it be seen online somewhere?

Unless that specific internet site subsequently gets blocked in the U.S.

[BeHereNow]

291. I'll bet more HALF our congress critters are on that list... as well as senators

I mean, would any one really be surprised?
I sure as hell wouldn't.

BHN

[elehhhhna]

39. Cindy McCain, PLEASE be on that list.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

148. she's not rich enough not even in the same league.

we are talking about private individuals who secretly fund and control the Fed, who never want their names in public, and who have profited from war and other steps taken by BuchCo.

[harun]

160. Wow, the real man (men) behind the curtain. Somebody's got to

leak this list.

[redqueen]

179. What makes you think so? In Germany they arrested CEOs.

What kind of people do you think are on the American list of traitorous, parasitic scum?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

198. the super rich don't limp through life with 300,000,000 in paper assets

most of which is tied into the brewery business.

as for the few hundred elite we are talking about, I am willing to bet that none of us ever heard of them. They don't seek the limelight, they don't allow spouses to run for public office, and they don't ever ever want the MSM looking at them.

[redqueen]

200. I don't know how much money those CEOs had.

As for what you're willing to bet on...

[elehhhhna]

208. wanna bet? I've been told by someone in the know that if the names of

US citizens holding offshore accounts in a certain island country were known by the public, it would shock the hell out of us. Big names we'd recognize in politics, religion (yep), sports, entertainment, as well as run of the mill super-rich.

[high density]

2. This person is the definition of unethical

Two wrongs don't make a right, and just because you can access the files or data doesn't mean you should. That's especially true when it comes to leaking (or selling!) any sensitive private information that is found while doing a job. Now if he were exposing serial killers I'd be more conflicted about the issue, but this breach doesn't seem worth it for tax cheats. Not to mention that he "reportedly" sold the information.

[trthnd4jstc]

5. tax cheats should pay their fair share.

Many Working Class and Middle Class people actually spend more on taxes as a percentage of their income than the very rich in this country, and Why? Because of Tax Fraud!

[high density]

8. Agreed, but we should catch them through other, more official means.

The information is stolen property and the US should not be accepting it.

[Runcible Spoon]

15. yeah don't hold you breath waiting for THAT.

The moral of the story is, your information really is never safe. Both Republicans and Democrats have made damn well sure of that.

If their banking activities were egregiously unethical/illegal, I don't give a shit about their invasion of privacy. The same way I don't give a shit about thesmokinggun.com posting mugshots.

[Jawja]

141. Good point.

They don't care about the invasion of OUR privacy with their unconstitutional wiretapping; maybe if they understand that THEIR privacy is no longer guaranteed, they won't be so quick to piss on the Constitution.

[SemperEadem]

17. official means

that means covering it up and it never seeing the light of day... yeah, let's do it by official means..

[JNelson6563]

26. America IS stolen property

It was a massive B&E plus mass murder. You need to be disabused of your sense of righteousness and how applicable it is to the USA.

"Stolen property"....:rofl:

[Wabbajack_]

73. How was your fourth?

[JNelson6563]

82. Ok I s'pose. I worked.

And the Blue Angels were in town and quite deafening. But the masses of people who converge on my region got to behold the awesome power of our mighty military machine.

And how was yours?

Julie

[Wabbajack_]

127. The days bleed together

I don't really care for holidays. Just another day.

[knixphan]

135. 'massive B&E plus mass murder'

That's about right.

[elehhhhna]

44. the Clinton Admin got the names of U.S. offshore acct holders from Cayman Banks

in '98 or '99...after lots of litigation.

The BA hasn't done anything with it. Except maybe blackmail a few people, perhaps.

[Raster]

47. so, how's your numbered account doing?

[mwb970]

67. I see your point, but it wouldn't happen "officially".

You must know that by now,

[high density]

88. No, it probably wouldn't

But that doesn't mean what this guy did was the right thing to do.

[Lasher]

129. No US law was broken

And we in the US have no moral obligation to support laws of other countries if we disagree with them. Secret foreign bank accounts are huge money laundering schemes. These banks help people illegally hide assets. You can't see the forest for the trees.

[high density]

159. Right, we do whatever we want

But the guy was in Liechtenstein and was operating under Liechtenstein's law. We can't tell that country what laws they should or shouldn't have. America turns a blind eye to a lot worse laws all over the world than a secrecy law in a tiny European country.

[redqueen]

180. "America turns a blind eye to a lot worse laws ..."

Exactly. So accepting the "stolen" information in order to prosecute criminals is no big deal.

[Lasher]

203. Why not, they're doing whatever they want.

They don't have any respect for our tax laws. More than that, they are helping our citizens break our laws, and they are pofiting from it. And yet you insist that we not only respect their law that enables this scam, you think we should help them enforce it by refusing the information. I disagree.

If it is wrong for the US to turn a blind eye to worse laws, is it right to do so in this case? Two wrongs don't make a right, you know.

[ooglymoogly]

247. You appear to be lowering the bar for stupidity to somewhere below the turf and razing it

beyond reach for common sense.

[high density]

264. I just think if the position where flipped, people here would be not be happy

If their information was sold, they would not be happy. If somebody in our country had broken our laws to the exclusive benefit another country, they'd be outraged.

[ooglymoogly]

279. It happens here all the time. It is called blowing the whistle

and most honest and sane people glorify those whistle blowers. You are barking up the wrong tree here with a stunningly inane argument.

[aquart]

222. Yes, Leichtenstein is helping Americans break American laws.

That makes them accomplices to the crime of tax evasion.

[high density]

231. Liechtenstein doesn't care about our tax system

That's the bottom line.

[Hannah Bell]

282. liechtenstein isn't a country, it's always existed solely as a parking lot

for tax evaders & other hot money - but only for the rich.

[neverforget]

71. I work my ass off everyday and pay my taxes for this country. These

fuckers should be paying too.

[yardwork]

109. There are no official means, because the laws of those countries protect wrongdoers.

[Spiffarino]

118. I would have felt the same a few years ago

...but with the assistance of these uber-rich tax cheats the Worst President Ever got into the White House.

Thanks in large part to the superwealthy, our privacy rights have disappeared and anyone's phones can be wiretapped, their internet access records seized, and all their financial information collected in complete violation of the Constitution.

Now they can't hide from Big Brother either.

[aquart]

219. How about if we waterboard him first?

Will you feel better about it then?

[high density]

232. Please tell me what that has to do with anything?

Are you asserting that I am somehow pro-torture because I don't feel bank employees should sell data to third parties?

[John Q. Citizen]

229. Maybe Obama and Pelosi can arrange for retroactive immunity. After all, we are at war, and people

who don't pay their taxes hinder our country's ability to prosecute that war.

[bperci108]

245. Bullshit.

The Ruling Class has made it quite apparent that all rules are out the window.

Time to hoist the Black Flag and begin slitting throats. :evilgrin:

[NuttyFluffers]

254. the "official means" in a lawful evil state is coverup, including assassination.

i fully believe America has walked down the road of lawful evil state for generations now. one just needs to look to our history. your appeal to justice through the mechanisms of a lawful evil state is but a mere red herring. please don't fall for the propaganda about the order of how things are done; your eyes alone should have convinced you about the true ordering of action.

[Political Heretic]

294. How's that working out so far?

The only way we will ever reel in massive, massive, massive economic corruption is by whistle blowers. That's the only way.

[mntleo2]

100. Poor pay on average 19% of their income in taxes n/t

[annabanana]

7. I'm not conflicted about it either.

I think he has done a public service,

[high density]

9. So I take it that ...

...You would fully endorse having your banking data stolen by a bank employee and then sold to a third party?

[SemperEadem]

14. non sequitur

you see, we're not a bunch of thieves hiding our money in a foreign bank, to avoid paying our fair share of taxes. I pay my taxes every year, therefore, my name wouldn't be on that list exposing thieves.

[high density]

18. When you do banking, you expect privacy of your transactions, yes?

I'm all for catching tax cheats but this is a very bad way to go about doing it.

[SemperEadem]

20. I don't expect for criminal activity to enjoy privacy rights.

[high density]

23. Speaking of non sequiturs.

Your argument sounds just like Bush telling us that we have nothing to worry about in regards to his warrentless wiretaps as long as we're doing nothing wrong.

[sentelle]

76. AFAIK

The swiss do not consider evasion of US taxes a crime, and so, its not considered a reason to disclose accounts.

Money laundering, terrorism etc, then no, the swiss will not keep it secret

[Lasher]

130. But we do consider US tax evasion ro be a crime.

And therefore, now that the information is available, we certainly should not look the other way.

[RaleighNCDUer]

188. The swiss laudered money for the fucking 3rd reich.

They don't give a shit about international law or international crime. Only about the payoff.

Terrorism? Money laundering? Damn right they'll keep it secret, if they're paid enough.

[DeSwiss]

28. "...but this is a very bad way to go about doing it.."

So explain to me how one goes about getting the proof of tax evasion from a bank in a country with secret banking laws????? The people using these secrecy laws are no different than any other criminal in this respect. They all wish to hide what they do. Where they differ from their poorer counterparts, is that they fund the campaigns of the politicians who make such laws to keep themselves and their wealth hidden.

So please, tell me about all the "successful and legitimate ways" that such crooks are caught. Give me a rundown of those behind bars who were caught.

- I really want to know....

[JNelson6563]

31. Actually no and neither should you.

I do not believe there is any such thing as a right to privacy any more (at least from the perspective of our current Government) and neither should anyone else. I fully believe my life is accessible to the Gov. if they should so desire.

"Patriot Act", "Executive Orders", "FISA" and stuff like that make it clear.

Julie

[daggahead]

34. I expect privacy in the US ...

... but if I stash my ill-gotten gains abroad, I may have to accept the fact that it is not as secure as here in the States.

[1monster]

38. What ever gave you the idea that we have banking privacy in this country?

[Raster]

48. Tax cheats deliberately go to Liechtenstein to set up ILLEGAL accounts,

knowing full well they are ILLEGALLY defrauding the US government.

[jberryhill]

91. And if you want to smoke weed, you go to Holland

While I surely find the ensuing fun & games here to be as enjoyable as anyone else, what this guy did was likewise illegal in Liechtenstein.

Justifying it on the basis of "but we have spying etc. going on here" seems to be a case of lowered standards.

This'll be more fun than the DC Madam.

[atreides1]

167. I Don't smoke anymore.

And part of the fun was that smoking weed was illegal.;)

Yes, what he did was illegal in Liechtenstein, so let Liechtenstein charge him and extradite him.

As for lowered standards, it seems to be an accepted practice lately

[redqueen]

181. Are smoking weed and shirking billions of dollars in tax liabilities similar crimes,

so much so that they deserve equal protection / consideration in areas in which these actions are considered legal?

[mopinko]

51. no i don't. not if i am committing a financial crime i don't.

don't you watch law and order, man? the government absolutely can subpoena my bank records.
don't expect privacy of any kind these days, anyway. but tax cheating and banks? no quarter.

[high density]

92. Sure, the government can subpoena the records

But that is not the situation here where a bank employee decided on his own moral compass that it was time to disclose this information. He broke the law in Liechtenstein but nobody seems to give a crap about that.

[lastliberalintexas]

103. He'll pay that price

It doesn't usually taint the evidence unless he was acting as an agent of the US government or at its direction. If he did this of his own accord as it seems, then the evidence is still admissible against those accused of tax fraud. At the same time, he could also face prosecution for his own criminal activity. Two separate issues.


By the way, as I noted downthread, the US government can not subpoena these records, as countries like Liechtenstein refuse to provide banking information in response to such requests. Doesn't matter if the subpoena is based on a warrant, the account holder is already under indictment, etc. Great friend, the government of Liechtenstein.

[Fovea]

162. On the great chain of criminality

where one end is jaywalking, and the other is using WillyPete on an Iraqi city in the middle of a war of aggression, I see this as more boon than tort.

[KansDem]

258. The government can obtain warrants for wiretaps of Americans

But, for whatever reason, BushCo refused to do so and we now have wiretapping without court warrants.

Consider what this bank employee did as "preemptive account review"--that is, he acted based on what he thought these account holders would do. Rather than wait and see if they would defraud the US government, he moved to stop them before they did.

It's all perfectly legal and acceptable in BushAmerica...

[pampango]

263. Interesting point of view. I can see the similarity between the BushCo

willingness (desire?) to break a few laws (and a Constitutional right or two) to get some really bad guys (terrorists) and some commenting on this OP who seem willing to break a few laws and tread on some tricky privacy areas (hey they didn't reveal MY bank info and, besides, THOSE guys - the rich guys, not the terrorists - deserve it) to get some really bad guys - rich potential tax evaders.

[skepticscott]

68. Uh, well no actually

ALL banking transactions of $10,000 or more in this country have to be disclosed to the government BY LAW. Interest earned (and thus the existence of an account) is also required to be disclosed to the IRS.

[high density]

89. Right, it's disclosed to the IRS

But that is NOT the same as a random bank employee taking the data and selling it to whoever wants to pay for it.

[KoKo]

90. You live in Latvia and you are complaining about American Tax Cheaters?

:eyes:

[high density]

93. Actually I live in the USA

But thanks for reading my profile.

[KoKo]

97. Maybe you need to "update" your profile, then. eom

[yardwork]

110. I think you're missing the point. The laws protect the wrongdoers.

The only way to get this information out to the world is to break the laws of Lichtenstein.

[high density]

157. The laws also protect the secrecy of the people who have done nothing wrong

Many DUers seem to be willing to give that secrecy away and instead put that judgment of disseminating information in the hands of an individual instead of the law. This guy is not a judge.

[redqueen]

182. Their law protects these criminals. (nt)

[RaleighNCDUer]

191. Right.

all kinds of people who have done nothing wrong have secret numbered accounts which pay them interest that is NOT REPORTED TO THE GOVERNMENT - thereby making it WRONG, as in ILLEGAL.

Every American who has a secret account overseas is, by definition, a lawbreaker.

Every. Fucking. One.

[yardwork]

205. Thank you.

[elehhhhna]

213. Our tax law requires us to self-report income, whether the bank of Mars does so or not

There are offshore bank account holders who DO report their income from these investments.

[RaleighNCDUer]

221. Uh huh.

It's WHAT they report that's the problem.

The ONLY reason to have a secret offshore account is to hide money. People do not pay the extra fees for no reason.

Stateside, you self-report - but the bank issues a statement of interest earnings which is available to the IRS. Maybe the IRS checks, maybe it doesn't, but if it does, and your self-report does not match the bank's statement you're in trouble.

I say again, there is no reason to have a secret offshore account, at higher fees than stateside banks, other than to hide assets. Only a moron would pay higher overseas fees for secrecy, then voluntarily give the correct information. And if you are among the uber-rich, you're probably not a moron. Therefore, the only conclusion is that the uber-rich are hiding assets from the government.

[high density]

235. So it's guilty until proven innocent, at least in this case, from your POV?

Probable cause does not necessarily mean guilt.

[RaleighNCDUer]

238. Hey, as far as i'm concerned, if you've got multi-millions

you ARE guilty - unless proven innocent.

I am fucking sick to death of being on the losing side of the class war.

BTW, probable cause is probable cause - and probable cause is enough in this country for the government to access a person's financial records. Which is WHY these assholes have secret offshore accounts - to hide illegal assets.

Why would someone have these accounts?
1) because they get a better rate of return than in US accounts. Actually, they pay HIGHER rates for the privilege of secrecy, so an offshore account COSTS them more than an equivalent account in the US.
2) to evade taxes.

As I pointed out earlier, you don't pay extra for less return. It makes no economic sense. Therefore, the return in not inherent in the account, but in not paying taxes on the account. It is a criminal act.

Put this another way: Sequoia uses proprietary software to fix elections. We know they fix the elections, but the proof is only held in the proprietary software that is protected by law from examination. Does that make stealing elections right, just because we can't legally access the proof that the elections are stolen? Somebody swipes the hard drive from a Sequoia computer that has the proof on it, and exposes it to the public. Is he a thief, or a hero?

[high density]

240. If you feel that way, I can understand why your flag is indicating distress

I witness people doing things which make no sense all the time. Our congress does it on a daily basis. Doing things that make no sense does not break any US or international laws.

For Sequoia it sounds like it would be wise to make a law which requires them to submit source code for review. Interdependent testing can be performed to validate that the software works properly and the given source code matches the functionality of the compiled executable. Waiting indefinitely for a whistle blower to show errors in the process is not a good way to ensure that our elections are fair. I agree there is a gray area where whistle blowing is important, but I do not agree that this fellow's mere suspicion of crimes (from the POV of foreign countries) is enough to excuse what he did.

[jakefrep]

224. That is correct

But we can't let the facts get in the way of a good rant against stinky rich people.

[Vincardog]

249. Can you point me to the LAW that requires us to self-report income? Exactly what LAW is that?

[elehhhhna]

255. irs.gov is your friend!

[Vincardog]

256. I am not looking an irs regulation I am looking for a LAW that does not exist

[elehhhhna]

257. Fine. You can explain that in detail at your audit.

lol

[CaptJasHook]

230. He is not functioning as a judge

His actions do not carry the weight of law.

Though I take note of your argument about his criminality. I am concerned about your passionate defense of the privacy of criminals. Many corporations also have privacy rules, but if you are an individual witnessing a crime, you are obligated to report the crime. This man obviously saw multiple crimes being committed in a Global economy. True, Liechtenstein has a set of banking privacy laws. But these tax breakers were committing multiple international law violations. He felt it was his moral duty to report those violations.

There are many cases wherein one's moral duties rise above immoral laws. I hold the Bank privacy laws of Switzerland and Liechtenstein in contempt, for they hold our tax laws and basic fiscal responsibility in contempt.

Most of all, I hope these tax breakers are punished to the fullest extent of the law (as if that will happen) for robbing the Citizenry of the United States of millions of dollars.

[high density]

233. How does this guy know that the people were thieving?

Did he assume that US address + Liechtenstein account = fraud? That's a very good assumption to make, but assumptions should not be used as the exclusive basis to prosecute people. I don't see how privacy laws are "immoral." Every day, people on DU are outraged about Republicans invading privacy, and we just had this huge blowup when Barack Obama voted for FISA.

[neohippie]

202. actually no

When I do my banking if I deposit over $10,000.00 the bank notifies the FBI and the IRS and the transaction is investigated... so there isn't any privacy. Ask your banker. These people aren't playing by the rules, which is why they are sheltering or hiding their monies in foreign banks especially in countries that have secrecy laws.

[high density]

236. AFAIK, $10,000 is a cash threshold

And I agree that anybody who comes in with thousands of dollars in cash should be flagged to make sure nothing illegal is going on. But that information is sent by a US bank to the US government under a US law. It is not pulled out willy nilly by an employee who has decided on his own that the information needs to be released to whoever pays for it.

[Hannah Bell]

280. in the us, deposits & withdrawls are monitored, & i pay tax on interest

income. so there's no such strict privacy as you posit.

if everyone had access to tax-free "secret" banks, i'd expect privacy. but since these banks are in fact set up specifically to give rich people the ability to evade the laws of the locales where they make their money, i see no reason they should be granted special privacy rights to break the law.

[Political Heretic]

295. No, I don't. My legal transactions will be kept in confidence and ILLEGAL ones will be reported.

I don't expect anonymity when banking. I expect confidentiality to every legal transaction I make. I expect zero confidentiality for any illegal transaction I make.

[DeSwiss]

21. I'd prefer....

...that no states have banking secrecy laws that allow the cheats a haven in the first place. That's what those "Offical Means" has gotten us thusfar. Zilch.

I agree that it was privileged information. But with privilege, comes responsibility. This country, and all the others like them, contribute to the disparities between rich and poor. And place a higher tax burden onto those who can least afford it.

- There is such a thing as a higher law. That's what defines this guy in my view.....

[The Backlash Cometh]

30. He was selective about who he picked.

The man recognized the crime and turned them in. If he hadn't, he would have been an accomplice.

[mopinko]

52. and what would the du morality police say if

the guy stood by and watched a regular stick up? they'd slice and dice the guy. theft with a pen? oh that's ok. :eyes:

[The Backlash Cometh]

64. Isn't weird how we allow a business to determine for us what is right and what is wrong?

This is why we are having so much trouble today. Too many people allow corporations to define morality for us.

[high density]

99. I'd like to see the response if the guy doing the disclosing was George W. Bush

DU would be overflowing with outrage about it.

[redqueen]

184. Why are you pretending that all disclosures of any information are equal? (nt)

[harmonicon]

65. umm..... there's a massive flaw to your logic here

If my banking were done for the purposes of tax evasion, I don't think I would have much ground to be upset for someone exposing my crimes. As is, I don't really care if people know where I have bank accounts, because they're all totally legit and I have nothing to hide.

[high density]

102. Nothing to hide

That's the excuse that Bush gives us when he wants to break all of the laws for fighting "terrorism." If you have nothing to hide, then there's nothing to worry about.

[harmonicon]

111. no, it's not the same

I'm not hiding my bank accounts. They aren't secret, so it's not that case that I don't mind people knowing my secrets - I have none. The subject of these criminals accounts has to do with the fact that the accounts were hidden and untaxed. You're acting as if this behaviour that people are being outed for was legal.

[MrBlueSky]

155. This guy deserves a medal...

And a lifetime in the Witness Protection Program, for obvious reasons.

Two wrongs truly DO make a right in this case, so my fellow Joe and Jane Punch-clocks can save money in our taxes.

To violate another country's law to save us and our laws is nothing short of James Bond-esque valiantry.

Congress should do the right thing and grant this man special US Citizenship and then hide him from the "have mores" who will undoutedly hire the mafia to "whack" him.

Privacy went out the window by the 1970's (at the latest). The "have mores" are about to find this out.

Up until now, laws were for the little people... and the rich are exempt from all laws in every country in the world.

Beautiful, beautiful irony.

Finally, there truly is justice in the world.

[high density]

237. You're all for gutting any privacy we have left, as long as the rich get what's coming for them?

I find it so hypocritical that a forum full of people who get outraged daily when Bushco invades privacy feel this guy is a hero.

[annabanana]

75. If I were a tax cheat, I would expect it.. . . . .n/t

[pokercat999]

299. And they'd find out what? That my balance continually

bounces off the bottom?

[DeSwiss]

10. If he's the definition of unethical....

- I wonder how one defines the tax cheats??? Ethically-challenged???

[high density]

13. The tax cheats are also unethical

I want to make that clear.

[Hugin]

19. Then call them "Tax Thieves" It's a more accurate description of a criminal.

Not paying taxes is beyond ethics.

Would you call not paying for your groceries or gasoline, "unethical"?

[high density]

24. I'm not the enemy

I pay for my gas, groceries, and my taxes are withheld every 2 weeks. I also expect privacy in regards to my financial information, even if some random ass making $8.50 at a bank feels my information should be released for whatever reason to fulfill his own agenda.

[noiretextatique]

35. when you are committing a crime

you give up the expectation of privacy. i consider this man an informant, and informants are often paid for the assistance they provide authorities to apprehend and prosecute criminals.
since you aren't committing a crime, no one would sell your information to the IRS.

[bean fidhleir]

144. The students who formed the White Rose were criminals under German law

Would you have turned them in?

That's the problem I have with using "committing a crime" as a standard: criminal regimes make resistance a crime.

[elehhhhna]

214. Hell, our Founding Fathers were considered terrorists by the British Crown.

Hang 'em all, right?

[high density]

241. One could use the privacy argument for protecting The White Rose

The vast majority of the people here are all for gutting privacy in this case so that our US tax code laws are followed. Maybe they should answer this question.

[RaleighNCDUer]

196. Information the IRS already has, it might be noted. nt

[Plucketeer]

80. Yoo-Hoo!

The "perfect world" you keep alluding to.... if you walk the straight and narrow in this one, you'll go to that one (the perfect one) next. :crazy:

[high density]

107. Nobody's talking about a perfect world

However, a lot of people here seem to be living in a world where privacy isn't all that important, or they feel they have none to begin with. Well, guess what? Banks disclosing information to the IRS isn't exactly the same, at least on my gauge of privacy, as a private party taking the info on their own accord and then disclosing it to somebody else.

The bottom line is that it seems on DU it's not OK for the Republicans to be in your bedroom and tell you who you can marry or have sex with. It is not OK for Bush to have warrantless wiretaps to look for "terrorists." But it is OK for a random guy in Liechtenstein to break that country's laws and do what he personally thinks is right with the banking information of foreign nationals.

[Plucketeer]

226. I see.......

.....so I guess the Right thing for me to do is get wealthy and establish an account in Liechtenstein so I won't feel trod upon by other scofflaws. Or maybe I should just dutifully hand over the taxes (a fair amount of which I'm having to pay to make up for what the wealthy aren't paying) and hope those breaking the law, come to see the light and voluntarily make amends. Uh-huh. Satan's lair will be hanging with icicles first.:crazy:

[high density]

242. The right thing to do is to pay your taxes

If others break the law then it should be dealt with by law enforcement and the courts. Vigilante justice doesn't work in this country.

[Plucketeer]

276. I'm sorry Mr. Self-righteous

There's been uncountable instances through history where such cracks have appeared in the "system" and led to the righting of wrongs. I'm not ready to go back and apologise for them. You can keep your head down and count on redemption and a medal for nobility. We'll have your back. We'll be busy making sure you don't have to work harder and pay more than you should have to.

[lynettebro440]

145. Think of the guy

like he is the little ole lady who finally uncovered Enron. Was she a criminal?

[Hugin]

161. I find it amusing to think that the laws of the Country they aren't supporting with their taxes are

supposed to protect them. Kind of hypocritical and contemptuous.

If they're willing to throw their financial security to the whims of a foreign country instead of the U.S.
for the purpose of avoiding taxes in this country they should take their lumps.

[high density]

243. I'm not one of "them"

But I am tired of seeing any privacy we've got left being floated down the river to "solve" the threat of the day.

[Hugin]

251. Isn't the fact our laws don't apply there the reason these thieves were banking there?

So, it would be hypocritical if these crooks feel the laws of the U.S. should protect their privacy in a foreign
country.

I for one would feel justifiably outraged to find that my Tax Dollars were being used to protect the "Privacy Rights" (Which I point out these treasonous terrorist enablers relinquished by trying to hide their money outside of U.S. jurisdiction.) of people who thought themselves rich enough to not pay taxes to support the enforcement of the laws.

Typical wanting cake and eating it too thinking.

They enjoy the benefits of living in the U.S. without paying their fair share.

[redqueen]

185. "some random ass making $8.50 at a bank "

Is that how you determine someone's character?

Yeah... y'know what?

...

[high density]

239. Is that how you troll?

Yes.

[redqueen]

246. Pfff..

Nice attempt at deflection.

[AlbertCat]

121. I guess..

.... you're against, say, mob murderers cutting a deal to help catch other members of the mob. It's so unethical to bargain with the info you have and they need, isn't it? Especially from a criminal, right?

It may not be pleasant, but it's necessary. I understand what you're saying, but I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it.

[SemperEadem]

12. eff it... too bad

so what if he sold the list? The list exists and that's all that's important to know.

He's exposing serial thieves. They should be outted and publically embarassed. Too bad they can't be put in stocks in the public square.

[Hugin]

16. ...

I agree.

[peace frog]

140. Exactly so

and well done.

[Arctic Dave]

25. What do you think police informants are?

Most of the time they are criminals that get paid by the PD for information. I see this as the same.

[The Backlash Cometh]

29. Erm, when our country is about to enter a depression, these kinds of

tax evasions are akin to treason, IMHO.

[1monster]

36. Your name isn't on that list, I hope.

:evilgrin:

[ContraBass Black]

45. Well, of course he's a hero.

After all, he stole and sold somebody else's confidential data, not mine.

[redqueen]

186. Wow...

two.

I guess I shoulnd't be surprised really.

[TommyO]

53. Exposing illegal activity is not illegal.

[TechBear_Seattle]

57. So you don't mind the elimination of the Fourth Amendment?

I mean, as long as illegal activity is at some point exposed, there is nothing wrong with illegal wiretapping, right?

Had this been an employee of a US bank, working the United States, had done this exact thing to exactly the same group of bank customers, the employee likely would have guaranteed that the tax cheats walked on technical grounds. Had this occured in the United States, he would be facing charges of theft of proprietary information, theft of private information, violation of constitutional rights and likely interfering with a federal investigation of a felony... for EACH account that was sold.

Lichtenstein, Switzerland and other countries with banking secrecy laws still have mechanisms for investigating and prosecuting fraud. What this man should have done is go to the appropriate authorities, blow the whistle and allow the law to take its course. That he did not -- and seemingly did not in order be paid for this information -- shows that he is a criminal, not a hero.

[DeSwiss]

63. Not the same thing....

...because the 4th Amendment is applicable to our government's intrusion into our privacy, not the intrusion of a foreign national into the privacy of other US citizens who are breaking the law. Maybe a small point, but a valid point nonetheless. And its not okay to illegally wiretap when there are indeed means to obtain a legal one. Even after the government's already begun.

As for those so-called banking laws and regulations which allow countries such as Lichtenstein, Switzerland, etc. to divulge information on our tax cheats, I have to wonder how come they never do? Those laws are apparently very effective at appearing to be important law enforcement tools, while not actually working. Otherwise, there'd be more rich people in prison.

Your scenario assumes a level playing field that does not exist. The field we play upon is tilted in favor of the rich, who payoff politicians with "campaign contributions" and to dictators so that they can continue to avoid paying what they owe.

- What he did was wrong. What he exposed is worse.

[TechBear_Seattle]

72. Had this occured in the US, the stolen information would not be admissible in court

Specifically, it would not be admissible because it was not obtained through legal, constitutional means as guaranteed by the Fourth Amendment. Being not admissible, prosecutors would have to search for other evidence of wrong-doing that was not tainted by the illegally obtained records. That would make prosecution much more difficult.

The Fourth Amendment protections (in theory) apply to government action, including prosecution. That the records came into government posession without application of a search warrant is all that is relevant, not that the illegal seizure was done by a third party. There are court precedents -- I will have to do some research to find references -- which prohibit the court from using information in US courts not obtained through the proper due process of a foreign country, based again on the Fourth Amendment. Had the information been obtained by the Lichtenstein authorities in accordance with Lichtenstein law, then the US courts would have to allow that into evidence; with the Lichtenstein authorities calling him a criminal who has obtained this information illegally, I don't think it can be used. Not, that is, unless you buy into all of the Constitution-shredding arguments that have been promoted by the Junta for the last seven years.

Regarding the banking laws: Yes, they exist. In fact, the government of Switzerland issued a statement a few weeks ago debunking the common Hollywood portrayal of that country's banking laws. Banks and bank employees in both Switzerland and Lichtenstein are prohibited by very strict laws from distributing or publicizing private information; the flip-side of that coin is a battery of very strict laws prohibiting fraud, money laundering and tax evasion. Both sets of laws carry high penalties and they are vigorously pursued, as both the privacy and legality of the banking systems in these countries are key revenue streams to the small governments. There were well known channels and whistleblower protections that Herr Kieber could have used; had he, you can bet your numbered account that the Lichtenstein government would have taken action that was swift and thorough. He did not.

The US government might not have acted on information provided by Lichtenstein, you are correct. But now, they have a ready-made, constitutional excuse not to. And that helps no one.

[cstanleytech]

86. Read my post below yours, in all likelyhood I think the courts would allow it.

[DeSwiss]

87. Agreed.

If it had happened in the US. But it didn't. And the use of this information is legal for prosecutory purposes here because there were no acts by our government in violation of the law in obtaining the information. This is not a fruit from the poison tree scenario here.

If a federal prosecutor was walking down the street and a thief who had stolen a purse begins to throw its contents every which way looking for money, then the prosecutor could later charge someone with a crime if that detritus which is blown by the winds into his hands, turns out to be evidence of a murder. Its just the bad luck for whomever did it and got caught. Same thing here.

Similarly, Hienrich broke no US law in obtaining this data. And his offer of it to the government compels them to at least inquire. As officers of the court, they must investigate probable cause instances where a violation of law may have occurred. As I said previously, with privacy rights come responsibility. It is irresponsible (not to mention illegal) for a person to knowingly and with a conscious act seek to avoid to pay taxes they owe. This country gave them the means to enrich themselves and to continue to do so and to live a lifestyle this affords. That cost money. We need a lot of service people to fly the jets and steer the ships, and a lot of police to help protect this rich person's assets. And we do a pretty good job of it, so they have no right to complain. In any event, privacy can never be zero-sum in a civilized society. Its part of what we give up for the sake of less occurrence of war and continued banditry.

- I'm not trying to minimize what my new hero did. He broke the law, sure enough. Lichtenstein's law, not ours. But very often we find that our hero's take risks for a greater good. This is such a case. And I wouldn't feel any better if he were caught and languishing in some jail. But I'd definitely feel a lot better if the tax thieves were.

[cstanleytech]

85. Doesnt apply here, thats only to the government doing it not a private citizen

infact the courts ruled that say a hacker breaks into your computer and finds something criminal like child porn that the evidence of child porn can be submitted to court legally as long as the police did not ask the hacker to do it, if they did ask then the hacker would be acting as an agent for the police which is when the 4th amendment might apply but otherwise it doesnt.
In this case unless the people can prove the United States government asked the guy to break into the bank and steal the files I would not hold out much long term hope for the evidence to be surpressed.

[lastliberalintexas]

105. The 4th amendment never prevented this

The 4th prevents the GOVERNMENT from illegally obtaining banking information or other evidence with which to convict. It has never prevented an individual from illegally gathering information and funneling it to the government for use in a prosecution so long as the person is not acting as a police agent or at the direction of the cops. Yep, s/he might then be prosecuted for illegally obtaining the information, but that alone does not determine the admissibility of the evidence at trial.


I do agree, though, that I would feel better about defending what he did if he had not sought payment for the information and had instead turned it over freely to the appropriate government authorities.

[redqueen]

187. I'm fine with him seeking payment.

He's had to give his old life up (sure it was only the life of "some random ass making $8.50 at a bank ", but still) and now is having to give testimony while in hiding.

There's also the issue of our ROI for that money.

I'd say he deserves it.

[elehhhhna]

215. Your 4th amendment rights do not travel with you OR your money on foreign soil.

Are you really that naive?

[sentelle]

81. it wasn't illegal there

That's the issue. Lichtenstein doesn't have to follow US law. And its not illegal to have the account.

Now, if the money was derived illegally (according to Lichtenstein's laws, not yours, and not the US), then no, it should not disclose the info.

Since we are not talking about evading Lichtenstein's taxes, there is nothing illegal (per Lichtenstein's banks), and the only illegality was the disclosure.

[Lasher]

133. And the disclosure of Liechtenstein bank records wasn't illegal here.

That matter is between Kieber and the government of Liechtenstein.

The government of Liechtenstein does not respect US tax laws. We in the US do not respect their secret banking laws that enable our tax cheats. Seems fair enough.

[nankerphelge]

58. You are joking, right?

Tax cheats and white collar crime have more impact on our lives than serial killers. Whistleblowers should be celebrated and encouraged to come forward, even if their motivation isn't 100% pure. By your same logic, Watergate would have never been discovered.

[redqueen]

190. deleted

[skepticscott]

66. Except

what sacred right or principle is being safeguarded by the banking secrecy laws? What grevious harm will come to society if people can no longer be assured that they can hide money from legitimate taxation? This is not like a violation of doctor/patient or penitent/priest confidentiality. The only reason for banking secrecy among these people is to break the law.

[elehhhhna]

217. Did y'all know you must sign a huge confidentiality agreement w/

the financial advisor before they'll even discuss the hows & whys of opening offshore accounts? Gee...wonder why.

[truedelphi]

70. You are right. Two wrongs DO NOT make a right.

But since the deed is already done, I am gonna sit back and enjoy this.:popcorn:

[jberryhill]

94. Just wanted to stop and agree with you here /nt

[Greyhound]

84. He reported ongoing criminal activity, hardly unethical, by the Judeo-Christian "morality" and

International law. Of course, the very reason that Lichtenstein exists is to commit the crime of hiding evidence of financial crimes.

[high density]

96. He broke the law in Liechtenstein

This DU, right? Isn't this where everybody bellyaches about Bush breaking laws to look for criminal activity? But everybody is happy that this guy broke the laws to do his own searching? If Bush was over in Liechtenstein and parsing through their files, would everybody be so happy about it?

[BigBearJohn]

115. and if someone illegally broke into Cheney's and Bush's private records and

solid evidence was found showing they each pocketed 10 billion of America's money,
you'd have a problem with that too I suppose.

[OnyxCollie]

134. "Isn't this where everybody bellyaches about Bush breaking laws to look for criminal activity?"

There's the flaw in your reasoning. bush is no "Dirty Harry", breaking laws to catch criminals. I believe bush is breaking laws to commit criminal activity. Fighting terrorism is just a pretext to cheat, steal, and blackmail.

This guy broke the (Liechtenstein) law. He should be punished for that. That said, anyone on that list who was evading taxes and therefore committing a crime has no right to complain.

[high density]

156. Bush is breaking laws because his moral values say it's the right thing to do

This guy is doing the same thing, yet people think it's a good idea because the end product is different then the end product of Bush's lawlessness.

[OnyxCollie]

197. This guy is breaking the law to stop tax cheats, for the benefit of the nation.

He should be punished for his actions, but how different is it than someone who disrupts Congress with a protest (which is illegal, BTW) to bring attention to a cause that benefits the nation?

[ms liberty]

227. Actually, unless you're Bush, you can't know why he's breaking the law...

You might infer from his statements and actions his reasoning for law-breaking, but it is still a supposition, as people frequently lie about their motivations.

Not disagreeing with the premise of your argument at all, just a minor side issue, lol!

Personally, I think he believes he is above the law, and that any laws do not apply to him. I think he's always felt that way. I don't think he has any moral values to speak of, nor do I think he thinks deeply enough to know his own moral values if he had any.

[Political Heretic]

293. Whistleblowers in the united states often have to break the law to expose company illegality

And they do it, and we should be thanking them that they did.

Go re-watch The Insider - its a great movie and hopefully will remind you that we are talking about people who break their promises, violate their contracts, and in some cases break at least civil statues in order to stop companies from grave wrong-doing. We should be thanking them, not sitting around making stupid pontifications.

[lastliberalintexas]

98. He sold the info to the respective governments

I agree that what he did is skirting ethical lines, but it isn't as though he took someone's personal banking information and sold it on the black market. He sold it to governments who are or should be looking for these accounts, not some crook looking for information to steal identities.


They are also out of the country for a reason, obviously. If the accounts were here, then the 4th amendment would require the police to obtain a warrant, but then a US bank would also be required to comply with such warrant. There is no requirement that a foreign bank comply with a US issued subpoena, which is why the tax cheats go overseas. I'm conflicted, but it's probably the only way justice could be served.

Oh and by the way, the 4th amendment only prevents the government from illegally obtaining evidence. Any private person could obtain information and provide it to the police- s/he might also face prosecution if the information is obtained illegally, but usually so long as the person was not acting in concert with the police or at the direction of law enforcement, the evidence will probably still be admissible.

[alfredo]

104. Oh sure the clerk did violate a trust. I guess he sold the info because

he may never find another job after this.

I'm wondering if some of the missing billions from Iraq is on that list? You know some of the faithful bushies in the Green Zone had to have their hands in the till.

[spag68]

106. When these super weal ty

don't pay any taxes, let alone their fair share, what happens to govt. programs that would have been funded. Greed is out of control and you have got to be kidding if you think that this guy is as wrong as those he outed. But then I'm more left then most and I think we should go back to the 1950Y's, when the super wealthy paid at the rate of 90%, and still managed to get rich. The tax system is so skewed toward the wealthy here that any thing that happens to most of them they deserve.

[yardwork]

108. But Lichtenstein and Switzerland protect these bank accounts.

I see this man as engaging in civil disobedience. He broke the laws of his own country for the greater good of the world. His country's laws are unethical, but nobody dares touch them.

[earth mom]

113. Who cares why he did it? I'm so damn glad he did!

:woohoo:

[McCamy Taylor]

117. No, the bank is the definition of unethical. It is organized crime. Evades tax laws other countries.

[RedShoes]

120. I agree, and more unethical are the warmongers not paying taxes to SUPPORT OUR TROOPS

they oughta be tried for treason, each and every one of them.

[groovedaddy]

149. Certainly, from a marketing stand point, this isn't a good thing for this bank

The secrecy component is what drives these "well heeled" customers to them. They're probably a little less inclined to do business there now. I wonder how much money laundering goes on there?

[zeemike]

150. What is the difference between a tax cheat and a thief?

Is it not theft because you steal from the government (or rightly the tax payers who have to make up the difference)
Or is it just because they steal millions and that seems OK because anyone would do that if they had the chance.

[liam_laddie]

153. Oh, puh-leeze!

:eyes:
He's exposing crimes in the countries of origin of the cheats. Unethical? I think he's called a whistleblower! Cheers to him; I hope he survives intact. Look...most members of Congress, by NOT honoring their oath of office are in my mind (YMMV, apparently) guilty of unethical, at best, and criminal, at worst, behavior. Throw all da bums OUT! There!

[harun]

164. If you see somebody breaking the law and you don't say anything

you are at fault as well.

Whether it is for witnessing serial killers or people defrauding the government of the United States is irrelevant.

[RaleighNCDUer]

183. Well, you know the old saying:

It takes a thief.

These "tax cheats" are not claiming an fraudulent deduction on their 1040 - they are hiding hundreds of millions of taxable income from our government. Not to mention income that is hard to explain - like the payoff money in contracts fraud (where would the MIC be without it?), money laundering for drug cartels, insider trading profits.

If these untold millions were all legal, why would they need to be hidden?

In many cases, the crimes came before the money ever arrived at that bank - phony investment in dummy corporations which 'go under' (making the "investor" eligible for a tax write-off) and the money is safely in Lichtenstein or Switzerland or the Caymans or Dubai, never to be seen again.

If the EPA valuation of a human life is $1mil, than these guys are worse than any known serial killer - taking hundreds of millions out of our economy, out of our taxes.

And I don't mind he got paid for doing it - by revealing the fraud he has ended his career in banking. I reckon that deserves a good severance check.

[hay rick]

204. unethical vs. illegal

Illegal yes, unethical- very debatable. If all laws passed ethical muster, we could equate illegal with unethical. Sadly, that is not the case.

Liechtenstein, Switzerland and the Offshore banking havens allow Americans to use "privacy rights" to trump legal obligations in other jurisdictions, such as paying American taxes. As a taxpayer, I am being victimized by these people and the foreign governments that use their sovereignty to shield these crooks are simply accessories. If a fellow American committed a violent crime against you and fled to Liechtenstein, you would reasonably expect extradition and surely would expect access to any information gathered about the crime.

I sympathize with the hiding bank clerk. He is committing what he views as an "ethical" crime to undermine an unethical law.

[FlaGranny]

216. I don't doubt for a moment that they

ARE serial killers. Not personally, of course, just from the side effects of their greed. Actual serial killers are not nearly as numerous or as dangerous to the average person as these leaches are.

[Vincardog]

248. Your concern for the uber rich is touching. It is still OK to torture and invade our privacy right?

[Hannah Bell]

259. They're theives, sucking out wealth without paying taxes on it, & asking us to bail

their asses when wall st. goes under.

You've got to be kidding, "two wrongs don't make a right".

They're literally murdering people.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

281. Let's say he worked in a photo lab.

And these people instead brought in their child porn film to get developed?

Would you be OK with that? Or would that be an unethical invasion of privacy?

[Political Heretic]

292. By your logic, we would never have a whistleblower - ever.

This is what whistle-blowers are. They are people who came to work for a company and signed non-disclosure agreements and agreed to other terms, but were then exposed to illegality and lawbreaking. When they come forward, they violate the terms of their non-disclosure agreement and all the things they agreed to when hired, for the sake of exposing a greater corruption or illegality.

This is no different. It's not two wrongs. It's two ethical obligations - one which supersedes the other.

[independentpiney]

4. What a fantastic story

I wonder if any greedy pigs here in the US will actually get in trouble from this.

[Frisbee]

22. Sheeetttt....

I'll bet you dollars to donuts there are multiple Bushes on that list if it is legit.

[awoke_in_2003]

62. There are probably

plenty of politicians (from both parties) on that list.

[Lasher]

138. Kieber shared the information 5 years ago.

And this is the first I've heard of it. I don't think there's been much enthusiasm in the US to go after these greedy pigs but I guess that could change with Junior & his junta on the way out.

[gateley]

6. I hope some of our elected officials are sweating bullets. nt

[Trillo]

32. Please let Bush and Cheney be on it.

Still, the lack of privacy is troubling, but hey, Telecoms got Immunity for their law breaking!

[elehhhhna]

41. I'm sure they are.

[The Backlash Cometh]

27. God Bless you Heinrich!

See what's happening? The rich are outsourcing their profits to other countries for other banks to use, and those banks are in collusion with them.

[daggahead]

33. Partial List of Daggahead's Heroes:

Dennis Kucinich
Thom Hartmann
Mike Malloy
George Galloway
Heinrich Kieber

[elehhhhna]

42. Welcome, Daggahead. Did you forget Sibel Edmonds?

[daggahead]

43. That was a partial list. :-) n/t

[elehhhhna]

50. thought so!

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

54. Another thing to think about:

Those people are not all UBS clients, I would say. That means other banks in the US are gonna get the heat for this as well. You can be sure that this has been going on for a long time and a lot of very prominent people are involved in this.

I would bet that there are some very, very recognizable names on that list, and that list accounts for billion of dollars in assets.

Oh please, let me see the names of some prominent repukes scumbags on that list, and I will die a happy man.

Oh, and isn't the timing more than a little...interesting. 5 months and change from when Dear Leader and his crime family leave Washington.

This could decimate a lot of big wigs. Blow them right out of the game.

[bluesmail]

46. They're sooo patriotic/not

Not paying taxes is in my opinion right up there with treason.

[MicaelS]

49. WOW!

Tax authorities in Italy published the full list of names.

Wonder if it's just Italian tax cheats, or ALL of them?

[orleans]

131. the list i found on a google translation search was all italian names/people

it was a published list of one hundred and some out of a total of a 400 name list.

[MicaelS]

139. Damn...

Thanks for looking.

[Patsy Stone]

55. Well

That's a fine howdoyado, huh?

K&R for a little bit of justice.

[Auggie]

56. Chimpy's pardon list is growing by the second.

[DeSwiss]

60. It'll be too late for him to help his fellow felons....

...besides, his name could be in there too!

[bluesmail]

61. Reminder: According to ABC (ugh) the unpatriotic ones

are turning themselves in to the IRS< And who does the IRS serve? I'm hoping, but I've been here many times before. And Levin? I'm kinda hoping.

[elehhhhna]

210. THE BA offered tax amnesty to offshore account holders in, iirc, 2000 --

during which you could refile your tax returns & report offshore income with no penalties, interest or prosecution. These crooks had their chance to repair their crimes already.. If they blew it, they blew it.

[katandmoon]

69. BWAHAHAHAHAHA -- that made my DAY!

[stlsaxman]

74. How absolutely delicious!

... and tragically malicious!

[NBachers]

77. I have no problem with the truth coming out

and being exposed to the light of day. Maybe we're entering an astrological cycle where truth manifests itself throughout the world.

TRUTH! YES!

Remember candidate John Kerry saying that no government contracts or subsidies would be given out to Benedict Arnold corporations that go offshore with their business to avoid paying taxes?

[iamahaingttta]

78. Ohmygod, he's a dead man!

Heinrich Kieber better not ever show his face anywhere on this planet, because now there are "hundreds of super-rich American tax cheats" who would probably do anything to see him gone.

Hide, man, hide!!!

[jberryhill]

95. It's too late

Killing him would accomplish nothing. The list is out.

[Lasher]

136. Revenge.

And making others afraid to emulate Kieber.

Edit: I read elsewhere that some of the outed account holders are drug dealers and they are looking for him.

[Leeny]

79. Mmwwaaaaaaah!!!! Made my day!

Thanks for sharing, that's the best news I've heard in a while. And the guy IS a hero. He's not the one who's unethical. He's done a brave thing. You know, I wonder how much it will amount to in unpaid taxes and late fees, not to mention fines, etc. Maybe that could be used to pay down the deficit. House, feed and cloth the homeless. I just hope it doesn't all get swept under the rug and forgotten about.

Those cheating bastards!!

:yourock:

[Canuckistanian]

83. Danke, Herr Kieber

If ever a person needed to violate a law, it was this one.

I toast you, sir.
:toast:

[SlingBlade]

123. Here Here !

:toast:

[Dover]

112. How can anyone move money around without a trace, either a paper or digital trail?

Do they carry cash to another country and open an account or how do they transfer it there?
How does that work?

[RaleighNCDUer]

209. Simple money laundering.

Person 'invests' in a dummy corporation. That corporation sends the money to a secret numbered account. Corporation records the investment as a loss on the books. The original 'investor' claims a tax write-off for the loss, while collecting the interest on the secret account.

With the loss and write-off, the investor not only accounts for the missing money, but makes money on it from the IRS. The government, knowing the money was lost to a bad investment, doesn't look for it.

That's one way.

I'm certain there are many, many others.

[elehhhhna]

211. Financial advisors set up shell co's and wire the money thru them...

although cash works, too -- especially if you travel on a private plane.

[elehhhhna]

212. also, say you but vacation or other rental property in Cayman...

the rent goes into a local bank. You are supposed to report this as income. You don't. So how do you spend it, you ask? Simple: by using a visa or mastercard that's been issued by the offshore bank.

[Divine Discontent]

114. WOW WOW WOW!

that crooked country is mad at him for giving up these crooks because they want to keep their good thing going there with all those investments in their country, but this guy said NO way, and I'm gonna make money off you bastards - AWESOME!

I hope we get to see the names soon! This has the possibility of being HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH!

more at - www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable

[Oldtimeralso]

122. Here is my secret bank account # 5.65

No Wait a minute that was the account balance.

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

124. Why is Liechtenstein govt. so angry at this guy?

Are they even more in bed with the super-rich and the plutocracy than the United States is?

[provis99]

137. Liechtenstein basically exists solely as a tax haven, much like Monaco

so the answer to your question is, yes, they are in bed with the super-rich. Germany and Austria have been complaining to the EC for years about Liechtenstein thumbing their nose at German and Austrian tax evasion laws.

Liechtenstein is essentially just an international money laundering bank.

[DCKit]

125. K$R for the asshats defending tax cheats and secret banking....

I don't have either option, so why should they?

Mo'money rules, I guess.

[MadrasT]

126. OH frabjous day

Tax evasion is a crime and the elite bastards with the secret accounts deserve to be outed. I'm happy as a cat in a catnip patch about it. :bounce: And I agree with previous posters that it is tantamount to treason.

I can't WAIT to see that list. :popcorn:

:toast: to Heinrich Kieber.

[rpannier]

128. self delete

[orleans]

132. from your link

"Washington lawyers say a number of prominent citizens have been subpoenaed to testify but have already indicated they will refuse to testify, asserting their Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.

"It is not yet clear whether Senator Levin will insist they appear in front of the committee anyway.


http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=5378080&page=2

[MetaTrope]

143. This story broke in February, yet not a single name has gotten out yet?

Looks like we shouldn't hold our breaths.

[cstanleytech]

146. I'm not to surprised, it will take awhile for the governments around the world to check

the records they have on file but I'm betting it will build up and I expect there to be plenty of people on the list both republican and democrat, its going to be very amusing as they all scream at the same time that they did not know it was "illegal" and or "A crime" and that they want their lawyer.

[MetaTrope]

189. I'm still wondering, if the Italian tax authorities published all the names, where can they be seen?

Surely there's a government website somewhere with that data...or are they respecting the right of the whistleblower to secretly sell it piecemeal all over the place?

[elehhhhna]

220. They still have to SHOW UP to claim their 5th amendment rights.

[bean fidhleir]

142. Maybe this will put it in perspective

What if this weren't about people ducking taxes. What if it were about people, living in China, funding pro-democracy printing and suchlike. Would we still praise him, if he turned over *their* names to *China's* government for money?

[Fovea]

163. Another perspective.

Would you have hidden Jews from the Nazis or turned them in?

One of these acts would have been the legal thing to do, the other, the right thing to do.

But one of them would have been breaking the law.

[high density]

166. I think you're missing the point.

For one thing, I don't think many people feel a Liechtensteinian law on bank secrecy is on the same level as the Nazis wanting to execute the Jews.

If tax thievery were punishable by death in this country, would people be as happy with this information disclosure? Everybody's got their own personal feelings on when "bad" laws are to be ignored and when they're to be followed. I feel that if I were working in a bank in Liechtenstein, I would not be doing what this guy is doing. I see lots of fellow DUers disagree with me, but that's fine. I just hope they don't work for my bank. (And no, I'm not doing anything wrong, I just don't like private individuals becoming a personally sanctioned judge and jury.)

[high density]

165. From the crickets, I would say no, they don't care about a few executed Chinese.

It's hard to believe that the same mass of people which was in a furor for days over FISA would now be praising this guy for playing fast and loose with private information. Snooping by the government = bad. Snooping by individuals = good. Got it.

[redqueen]

193. Beyond laughable. (nt)

[Sentath]

170. But it isn't and he didn't

All brittle rules break.

Any system of absolute rules can be 'worked'.

A clever person will eventually find a 'corner case' where the rules either force something that they do not allow or at least force something that they should never allow.

Thus we must allow for human judgment in our system. And then we have to fight like hell to keep it open and public, 'cause whoever is making those judgments is only human.

[bean fidhleir]

176. This isn't a "corner" or "boundary" example, this is the mildest of plug-in context shifts.

Understand that this guy was going against the laws of HIS country to support the laws of THIS one. What makes the laws of this country superior?

I'm sure Chinese authoritarians would applaud him in my scenario, where he turns in the names of those who are violating Chinese (but not Lichtensteinische) law. Similarly German authoritarians in HD's one.

If the US were really interested in preventing the wealthy from evading taxes, the system of laws would be quite different. The laws against undisclosed foreign bank accounts aim at the slightly-rich, not the very wealthy. The guys behind Enron didn't need to use Lichtensteinische bank accounts - they were wealthy enough to have a whole array of other means at their disposal, none of which could be blown up by some clerk willing to break his country's laws for money.

[redqueen]

194. "plug-in context shifts"

Is this supposed to be comedy?

[bean fidhleir]

199. "Is this supposed to be comedy?"

No. Is your question supposed to be?

[redqueen]

201. No. It's incredulousness. (nt)

[Sentath]

223. Hang on

You're arguing moral equivalence for tax cheats and Chinese dissidents?

Or is it that since the "very wealthy" have "a whole array of other means" then we shouldn't worry about the "slightly-rich" using this particular dodge? You appear to be using the example of a case where our laws were (for the most part) successfully 'worked' internally, e.g. Enron, to excuse the people who are using a partially external dodge.

[bean fidhleir]

261. I guess that's the problem with using an example so disparate

I'm really only trying to point out that there's something a little screwy -or a lot screwy- about celebrating someone breaking the laws of his own country -a rather relaxed, nice little place to live- to serve the needs of the imperialist World Hegemon. Of course, like most informers, he did it for money.

Most of the examples we can think of where people have ratted someone out to the agents of another country have been during occupations, e.g., Anne Frank's family being betrayed to the Nazis. Presumably nobody here who's celebrating this episode would have been happy about the betrayal of the Franks. Presumably.

But what about some Iraqi who betrays, say, an arms cache to the US occupiers? According to Hegemon law, he's done the right thing and might get paid for it. According to his countrymen, he's a traitor. Which is true? Should it be celebrated here?

Why should the bank account betrayal be celebrated? Nobody here knows anything about the accountholders. Many of them might be liberals, how would anyone know? We do know that BushCo is very loose and forgiving and nice toward fellow scum, and brutal toward everyone else. Why celebrate their getting their hooks into another group of people, when the nature of those people is unknown?

[Sentath]

265. I'm having trouble finding a close analogy myself.

Maybe we need a change of paradigm.

Philosophers and ethicists are paid for this sort of thing ( :

The points that I feel capable of addressing here today are the arms cache and the people in the last paragraph. Like most such things revealed here it would be examined and questioned. Whose arms cache was it? What is their track record? Are they a neighborhood defense group? A bloody sectarian separatist group? Paid provocateurs? As for the last paragraph I too could wish it happened under a different administration, but so far, it looks like, we probably, know what we need to about the account holders. They're tax cheats.

[Hannah Bell]

285. the people holding accounts in liechtenstein for the most part aren't

citizens of liechtenstein, but of other locales. liechtenstein has a population of only 34,000, & i'd bet a lot of those are related to the ruling family that runs the hot money/money laundering/tax evasion scam. i'd also bet that a lot of the workers in the banks are foreign nationals, citiens of other countries.

so the people banking there are mostly citizens of other locales, evading the laws of those locales.

the bank workers, also, are mostly citizens of other locales.

there's no issue of breaking or following the laws of one's country, since most of those involved are citizens of countries where bank deposits & withdrawls are monitored & taxed.

there's no comparison to informers ratting out ordinary people. just to open an account in these kind of banks, you need millions. liechtenstein exists to allow rich people to make money in one place & store it in another without being taxed, & the folks who go there for the service are breaking the law of their home countries.

[redqueen]

192. False balance... laughable. (nt)

[Vinca]

147. UBS, Phil Gramm, UBS, Phil Gramm, UBS, Phil Gramm -

I wonder if a certain beer heiress is on the list.

[windoe]

151. Yyyyyyyyyyyyyessssssss!! Morning Kick!

:kick:

[varelse]

152. Good for him

I'm grateful that he has sacrificed his freedom, his privacy, and his future in order to kick this giant rock over. I hope he doesn't come to regret it.

[peacetalksforall]

154. The logic and the tragedy of itt:

U.S. citizens expected to pay taxes and don't - they hide it. Crime.
U.S. citizens help these citizens hide it. Crime

Banking country employee exposes the crime: Whistleblower.
Banking country employee exposes it by selling it. Crime to be determined.

Other countries where money is secreted will all tighten up their chains of secrecy. Not good for the world.

The little people of this country can't retaliate by not travelling as a tourist to those countries that hold criminal money, therefore, no boycotts. And they probably can't afford the products from those countries to boycott them. So, for us, it's all in the hands of Congressional Leaders - including some who haven't been doing their job. We can hope. The little people of the world need a break from the burden of not benifitting from the taxes and fighting their wars, being exposed to their pollutants, being exposed to their taking our jobs and factories and shipping them out, busting up our unions. There is no end to their crimes and schemes to take us down to a third world country.
______________

P.s. Is the bank owner/head of government a member of the Bilderburger set or any of the other secret societies?

[E-Z-B]

158. I wonder how long it'll be until authorities find that he "committed suicide"?

[Coexist]

168. Damn.

[Joanne98]

169. I feel like it's Christmas!!! Thankyou Santa!!!!!!!!!!!

:bounce:

[cayuga]

171. I was optimistic until I read that this happened over 6 years ago.

We may never know the names, but the perpetrators know they have been outed.

[lonestarnot]

195. Wheels of justice turn ever so slowly.

:)

[sui generis]

172. quite frankly I hope he goes to jail

for a long long time.

If I work in Europe I have to pay taxes in two countries, even if I work as a dual national instead of as a U.S. citizen.

Somehow the U.S. believes it has a right to tax me and seize my private accounts overseas, (and I'm not a "super rich tax cheat"), and this worm of a human has sided with the U.S. government in what can only be described as espionage.

Furthermore, the title of the article is judge, jury and exectioner all in one. When did we become so un American?

America's "rights" stop at our border - if we want to figure out why money is overseas, let's start with how it got there, not the fact that it is there.

[FlaGranny]

218. Do you really believe this is people who work?

People who work do not earn enough, no matter what their "work" to hide their earnings in secret accounts. This is not about thousands of dollars or even millions - more likely BILLIONS - all accumulated free and clear and untaxed by anyone and all at the expense of you AND me, my family, my friends, and my country.

[sui generis]

234. but Granny

while I'm not denying there may be criminals in that pile, most people who make a lot of money are pretty circumspect and there are perfectly valid reasons for keeping money overseas as well, not to mention the gray area reasons.

Even the pass through corporations that back BancAmerica (a subsidiary of Bank of America that deals with private equity and venture capital) are registered in the Bahamas and in Lichtenstein.

They reduce their taxable burden by taking money that would be characterized as simple income and legally recharacterizing it as capital gains or some lower taxable structure so that the taxable portion of their income (of their investors' collective) is reduced dramatically, sometimes with effective tax rates as low as 5 or 6%.

While most of those kinds of investors don't relish an audit, they are above board and legal. The thing is Lichtenstein is a sovereign country. It owes America nothing. So if America now acts upon this information in such a way that would cause an economic collapse to Lichtenstein, then what this person did is tantamount to high treason.

The fact that we think that infiltrating, bribing, cajoling or otherwise encouraging privacy violations is above board and ethical ourselves is the disturbing part here.

My point was that if it's illegal, then we need to prove that here, rather than by exercising something that amounts to illegal search and seizure. Agreeing with these folks is like saying it's okay for the feds to check every house on the block for kiddie porn and then making everybody who has a computer prove that they're not child molesters.

I'm certain you will find a few pervs but that's not the way to do it in this country.

[redqueen]

250. "if it's illegal, then we need to prove that here"

And if the only evidence is stashed away in their files... protected by their pro-money-laundering laws?

[high density]

266. Well how about we submit, as the poster hypothetically suggested, to the FBI snooping on our

computers to find child porn, tax evasion, or other crimes? If you want proof of all wrongdoing then it is time to sanction big brother and welcome it for the greater good. Minority Report, here we come. We can't leave it up to random whistleblowers if you want to get all of the evidence against all of the crimes, especially ones that are hard to find like tax thievery.

Oh, that doesn't sound like such a good idea? Then why is it such a good idea for this guy in Liechtenstein to make himself the big brother of their banking to catch another country's tax thieves?

[redqueen]

268. Are computer technicians required to report you for child porn?

Yes, they are. Because there are no laws here instructing those random asses making $8.50 an hour to hide your crimes for you.

There are laws there forbidding random asses making $8.50 an hour from doing anything but helping the (extremely wealthy) people who steal from the rest of the people in their country by shirking their duty to share in the public costs of the country that they so falsely claim to love.




If there *weren't* laws here requiring technicians to report sickos for having child porn on their computers, and a random ass making $8.50 an hour reported someone anyway, would you criticize that person - and insist that they be jailed, as you are doing here re: this random ass?

[high density]

269. Now you're >completely< changing the argument.

Sure, if an idiot brings in a PC to Best Buy and kiddie porn is discovered during a repair, by all means, turn him in. The person willingly handed that PC over to a third party and any evidence of a crime that was on it. If some other dumbass with an account in Lichtenstein mails his account statement to the IRS and it shows earnings that were not properly reported, then by all means throw the book at him.

However, I am not aware of the law that asserts it is Best Buy's job or duty to specifically search for information that is or might be illegal on a PC brought in for repair. Nor is it in Best Buy's interest to enforce the laws of country outside of the one they're operating in. This guy in Liechtenstein does not have the tax return (the other half of the evidence) to prove that a crime has been committed, and not to mention that any crime is from the point of view of the regulations of another country, not Liechtenstein itself. If I have data on my computer that says I have a bank account in Liechtenstein, it does not automatically mean that I am guilty of tax thievery. ISPs are getting caught up in a similar situation with the DMCA in regards to file sharing and copyrighted content. The RIAA, et al wants them to assume everybody with broadband is a pirate and is breaking the copyright laws, and is eager to have this big brother system where they're the judge and jury on the issue.

[redqueen]

270. Answer the question.

If there were no laws requiring techs to report people for posessing child porn, would you demand that a tech who broke the law in reporting the crime should be jailed?

[high density]

272. I did answer it.

If a tech working in the USA comes across evidence of a crime based on US law during the course of doing his or her job, then he or she should report the crime. A bank employee in Liechtenstein with account information on US citizens does not have enough information to determine if a crime was committed in regards to US tax thievery. Finally, there is no crime committed by these account holders according to Liechtenstein's laws. Liechtenstein is a sovereign country.

Unless instructed by a law or judge, the technicians should not take it upon themselves to make bulk copies of every computer hard drive that comes in the door and give or sell the data to other parties.

[redqueen]

273. No you didn't. I specifically said if the tech was NOT required to report it

and reporting it would 'violate privacy laws'... would you demand a tech who reported it be jailed?

[high density]

274. Once again you miss the issue.

The bank employee in Liechtenstein with account information did not have evidence of a crime by the basis of US laws or Liechtenstein laws. Yes, his information COULD POSSIBLY be linked with tax data in the USA to prove a US crime, but that is not this guy's job nor does he have the ability to make that link. Instead, he ASSUMED everybody with an account that had an address outside of Liechtenstein was doing something illegal. It is not his duty to disclose account information when he feels like it because of crimes that he thinks might have been committed based on laws of other countries. To wrap it up the laws of his own country prohibit his activities, whether you agree with people having privacy or not. I hope he's prosecuted for it.

Now if an employee at my bank releases my information to whoever pays for it, because he personally thinks that everybody on my street is a crook, then yes, I want that guy prosecuted as well. I assume the bank and the rest of their customers would agree.

Does Liechtenstein or the USA have a law that prohibits technicians from reporting child porn that is found on a customer PC? If not then your question has no answer because the situation is not going to happen.

The end.

[redqueen]

275. ... (nt)

[sui generis]

296. then change the laws. don't break them.

:hi:

Seriously, the deal is that we believe ourselves to be entitled over any foreign country's sovereign interests, and that quite frankly is MORE wrong than these individuals "stealing" by not reporting income.

If you want to have moral authority, you have to walk the walk.

[FlaGranny]

262. I just can't imagine you

believing your own argument. Redqueen is right. If it's legal there's no need to hide it. People like me don't have a million bucks to pay someone else to save me a hundred million bucks by "legally" skirting tax laws to get those nice low effective tax rates. Those who have the money to do that still think it's too much, so they bypass the "legal" tax loopholes to hide their earnings and pay no taxes at all.

Very ethical of them to make us "poor bastards" pick up their slack. Leeches is what they are - pure and simple. I would say they should lose their citizenship - but, hell, that's no punishment at all.

The day the U.S. Government and Lichtenstein allow ME to put my earnings into a Lichtenstein bank account and skip paying taxes on it I will agree with you.

[high density]

267. Anybody can open up an offshore account

That is "allowed." Then beyond that it's up to you about whether or not you want to break the US IRS regulations on reporting income.

[sui generis]

297. yes I believe my argument or I wouldn't make it.

what could I possibly gain by not believing my own argument?

The issue is more nuanced. I replied to redqueen that we are essentially interfering in the affairs of a foreign country, and that is arrogant and MORE immoral than people stealing from the administration of government by not paying taxes. We can't be what we despise and still cast aspersions.

Also here's the nuance: If I'm paying full income taxes on my total earnings in two countries my personal belief is that one country or the other is stealing from me. I only get one set of

[fascisthunter]

173. GOOD!

[whistle]

174. Wow, three CD's full of names and data to tax authorities to 12 countries incl

...that could be 100s of thousnads of records

[kmac3]

175. Same song . . . different verse . . . .

The only way we'll ever see the list of Americans involved is if we are able secure it through another country.

And . . . if this involves only the mega rich it will all be swept under the carpet. Compliments of Bush!
:grr:

[redqueen]

177. So will they just get a fine then be allowed to go back to their privileged, parasitic lives?

Like this guy?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7508792.stm

[lonestarnot]

178. May I add very well done Mr. Heinrich Kieber!

:applause:

[DainBramaged]

206. WOW, big thread over something we will never see justice served on

Imagine if this was about Britney's crotch?

[jeff30997]

228. Britney's crotch?

BARF!I'm eating right now! :puke: :rofl:

[fascisthunter]

253. or about GM

[Norrin Radd]

225. Heinrich is a hero, in my book.

[happygoluckytoyou]

244. KIEBLER!!!! hooray... the elf that roared.... hope he lives through the trial ---MY HERO!!

[Zorra]

252. Big time felony. Max 5 yrs. in prison and $250,000 fine for income tax evasion. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

260. Hundreds of rich Americans whose names and secret foreign bank account information were turned over

tax authorities could face criminal prosecution. A Senate committee is scheduled to convene tomorrow and among those called to testify are foreign bank account holders, including one of the wealthiest men in Los Angeles.

Rich Americans are ducking billions in taxes with secret overseas bank accounts.
48 year-old Peter Lowy and his family own the giant Westfield shopping center fortune and will control the retail space in the rebuilt World Trade Center in New York. Bob Bennett, a lawyer for Lowy, who is a prominent contributor to both Democratic and Republican candidates, told ABC News that Lowy's name was on the list of secret accounts from a Liechtenstein bank but that Lowy did nothing wrong.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5389687&page=1

[JPZenger]

271. German Secret Service Bought their bank data

When the German government wanted to uncover their tax cheats, they had their secret service buy the data for millions of dollars from paid informants. This guy appears to have done it for free.

[Bo]

277. I worked in Banking many years and what this man did is not good.

I think that when you work for a bank and have that banks trust in your hands you do not go around stealing personal information because you "think" someone is not paying taxes....this idiot should be in jail.

[superconnected]

284. I agree. Plus he sold the information to other countries. Thats disturbing.

I hope they catch the tax cheats, but find a legal way to do it.

[Bo]

286. I agree, catch the tax cheats but do this legally without resorting to corporate sabotage.

This sets a very bad precedent and YES I AM SURE THIS MAN WAS PAID VERY WELL BY THE GOVERMENTS HE SOLD THE INFORMATION TO.

[jakefrep]

288. If he sold out the bank info of innocent people to get at a few tax cheats,

then by all means, he should rot in jail.

[FlaGranny]

283. I find it interesting

that some see so much wrong in the whistleblower. They also seem to think bank information should be secret; that it is not the government's business how much money you make or how much taxes you pay on it. Bank information is far, far, FAR from secret. Every US bank is REQUIRED to inform the government when you make large bank transfers/deposits. There are no secrets at all - for 99.9% of Americans, that is. I don't see the fairness in the rest being permitted to keep their money transactions secret - unless all of us are allowed to do so. I can see right off the bat that that is a Libertarian's dream world, putting an end to taxes (all of us hiding our money), ending road and bridge building, medical care, schools, police and firemen, and ending hope for the vast majority of Americans.

The dream of the cruel and selfish among us come true. Sad thing is that there are very few of us with money to hide. We have to spend it too damn fast to be able to hide any of it. The people who do so are beneath contempt, leeches and parasites on the rest of us, no matter how much they might like to feel "independent - making their own way in the world with no help." Despicable. leeches Ask me how I really feel about paying taxes on my small income while 19,000 very rich Americans get a free ride and the rest of the rich pay accountants to find them nice tax shelters.

[superconnected]

289. Excuse me? This is not a whistle blower. This is someone who commited

a form of treason and sold the info to other countries.

Whistle blowers are people who legally aquire information(I.e. working at a company) and make it public and seek to right the injustice they see going on - they don't sell the information for profit, they don't break into banking systems to get it. What this man is doing is illegal and for profit. He's scum.

How would you like a "whistle blower" in the US to break into CDC computers and then post the information of everyone who has AIDs? - no wait, Sell that information to other countries. Sure this guy is selling info on tax cheats, but he ain't doing it out of altruism.

[BreweryYardRat]

287. *claps* Well done, Mr. Kieber!

Thank you. You have done the honest citizens of the world a great service.

[superconnected]

290. Honest? What's honest here?

How is THAT man honest?

"He has been branded a thief by the government of Liechtenstein for violating the country's bank secrecy laws. "

Do you really believe this slimeball cares what info he sells? If he cares, they why is it being "sold"? Where's the altruism of the wistleblower making the info public for the good of the public? It wasn't made public - it was SOLD. Why didn't he alert the country he's in? He sold it to other countries. I call that treason.

Since people here have no problem with computer records breaches and selling them to other countries, then surely you have no problem with identity theft and selling your credit card numbers to other people.

[Political Heretic]

298. I don't when I'm breaking the law. :)