Body believed to be missing girl's found - CNN

[Barad Simith]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/02/06/missing.girl/index.html

SARASOTA, Florida (CNN) -- A body believed to be the remains of missing Florida girl Carlie Brucia was found early Friday behind a church off Interstate 75, law enforcement sources in Sarasota told CNN.

The 11-year-old's abduction on Sunday was caught by a car wash surveillance video camera.

The Brucia family has been notified, and tests are pending to confirm the identity of the body.

Surveillance video from a carwash showed a man approaching Carlie and leading her away by the arm. Police subsequently arrested Joseph Smith based on a tip from his housemate and are holding him on drug charges. Smith has not been charged in Carlie's disappearance.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

1. just woke up to this news

terrible. :(

[Barad Simith]

2. still up, listening to talk radio

and the host stops talking about Janet Jackson's breast long enough to announce the breaking development, then goes back to taking calls about Janet

like that could still matter at this point

[Sapphocrat]

3. Oh, God.

You know it's going to happen, but you still hope.

This damned, sick world.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

78. They say if you don't find the child within the first 2 to 3 hours

the odds of finding them alive are very slim. :(

[Mari333]

4. damn this world and what people do to kids .n/t

[Barad Simith]

5. I'm sorry. I try to be a good liberal

But I want Carlie Brucia's killer dead. I would do it myself if I could. And if I'd do it myself, why should I be against the authorities doing it in a legal, monitored, nominally humane manner?

11 years old. And he didn't just kill her, he killed her to cover up whatever else he did. It won't undo anything, but he just has to die for it. I don't see how I can continue to be against the death penalty.

[Spentastic]

7. Killing the person acheives nothing.

There are many dead Iraqi children. Bush is covering that up too. I want justice not revenge.

Killing is killing. It's never good. State sposored killing is equally abhorrent.

[Nlighten1]

10. Agreed.

Killing this man doesn't address the larger reasons as to WHY he did this. All it does is soothe our monkey brained need for violent revenge.

[libview]

53. there is only one way to absolutly garantee he never

does this again. It has nothing to do with revenge, it has everything to do with protecting society.
As to why he did this, he did it because he wanted to fuck an 11 year old girl and kill her. How hard is that to understand?
He needs to die, and the sooner the better.

[SixShooter]

70. This sucks

I live in Sarasota and used to hang out at Evie's mini golf course all the time, right next to the car wash.

This is so terrible. Im tempted to walk down there and execute the bastard with an assault rifle myself.

This guy needs to die period. And when he does I want to be there to hear him scream. :nuke:

[DaBigJagov]

82. Don't do that...

....unlike this POS, you WILL stay in jail.

[Nlighten1]

102. You don't even know

if they have the right person yet. This is exactly why I disapprove of the death penalty.

[TolstoyAndy]

104. But look at our "justice" "system"

Though I agree in theory that death is warranted here, we have to look at how things work in this country.

- Confessions are routinely extracted via torture.

- Innocent people are put to death. In Illinois, they executed as many people as they later exonerated, so Gov. George Ryan (R-Corruption) took the death penalty off the table.

- In TX, your lawyer doesn't even need to be sober or awake. I'm sure FL isn't much better.

Therefore, even when they arrest someone, how do we know he's guilty?

Whoever did this is scum on legs, but I have no confidence whatsoever that they will get the right guy, so I can't support death in most cases.

[MisterC2003]

66. So, the little girl is so much trash to you

to be discarded like rubbish now that she's dead? And her greiving parents are owed no redress?

[Melinda]

91. How do you extrapolate such nonsense from what the OP actually said?

Seriously- pray share your froggy leap path. :eyes:

[MisterC2003]

103. Sharing the path

If you'll follow the tree showing what each post responds to, mine is a response to Nlighten1's post, i.e.,

>> Killing this man doesn't address the larger reasons as to WHY he
>> did this. All it does is soothe our monkey brained need for
>> violent revenge.

I consider such an attitude abhorrent. It SEEMS enlightened, but in actuality it argues that the victim's life doesn't really matter much -- that a truly enlightened person will ignore all the evil done in the world in the name of inner peace. Kinda self-centered when you think about it.

My feeling is that although we as a society don't have the power to undo what was done to her, we at least owe her and her parents a demonstration that we share the feeling that what happened to her was wrong, and that demonstration oughtta be something a LOT stronger than lip service.

So it's not "soothing our monkey need for revenge" it's responding to our need as a society to say, 'This child was a member of our society, and the man who did this to her was wrong, and we are going to lock him up/kill him as an expression of the depth of our feeling of the wrongness of what he did."

Sure beats some moldy old platitude about "need for revenge" which to me seems like the New Age equivalent of tossing a few coins out of the coach after running over a peasant.

But you are correct that my initial post was not clear. I hope this makes things clearer.

[Melinda]

106. I know you addressed Nlighten1, but I don't agree with you.

Most especially, I can't comprehend how you got "So, the little girl is so much trash to you to be discarded like rubbish now that she's dead?" from what Nlighten1 actually said.

I mean, :wtf: - how did you get there?

A life for a life is vengeance, and killing this man will extract said vengeance. Killing him will not bring the child back, killing him will not explain nor lead to any semblence of comprehending his heinous crime - to learning from it so that we might be able to prevent future acts by others in the process of "becoming" such a monster.

If the death penalty alone were an effective enough deterrent to cold blooded murders such as this one, there would be no such murders. But they continue, and the question begs.

One can be sympathetic, empathetic; one can stand with the parents in understanding their grief and loss and horror, and one can and should support justice being served, and this animal being punished.

But while an eye for an eye seems righteous and fair, the true eventuality of such an action is that all parties involved end up blinded.

It's that same blindness that brought the world to 9/11, and I believe it's the same exact blindness that will be the destruction of civilization.

I respect your position, but I can't agree with it.

[Nlighten1]

111. I see...

"I consider such an attitude abhorrent. It SEEMS enlightened, but in actuality it argues that the victim's life doesn't really matter much -- that a truly enlightened person will ignore all the evil done in the world in the name of inner peace. Kinda self-centered when you think about it."

You have confused yourself by making a leap in logic about what I said. If this person they have in custody is guilty the current laws should be applied to him. Speaking as a parent though it would be little consolation to me. I want to see the root cause of this man's behavior stopped. This is far from being self-centered because I am concerned about the future and safety of ALL children not just my own. When society at large adopts the attitude that children should not be subjected to increased sexualization, which is getting younger and younger on TV, we might begin to tackle this problem.

"My feeling is that although we as a society don't have the power to undo what was done to her, we at least owe her and her parents a demonstration that we share the feeling that what happened to her was wrong, and that demonstration ought be something a LOT stronger than lip service."

This is thinking "ex post facto". Why not be concerned about the attitudes of companies like Disney, Viacom, CBS etc who are increasingly having younger and younger children in inappropriate situations and attire on TV? What you want to do is be reactive and I want to be proactive. Nip the problem in the bud before it begins. We also need to have a comprehensive public mental health program in America but we don't. If you want to get angry might I suggest you direct that anger into a letter writing campaign to your congress people asking them why large media corporations are getting increasingly provocative with our children and why we don't have a national healthcare system that includes mental health coverage.

[Nlighten1]

110. On the contrary...

I have two daughters myself and if one of them suffered this girls fate I wouldn't have a monkey-brained reaction about it. Yes, there would be a part of me that would want revenge however revenge would not bring my daughter back nor would it bring about a change to the society in large that is responsible for turning young girls and boys into sex objects.

[Ganja Ninja]

13. I disagree.

Giving this creep the death penalty saves society from having to devote the resources to keep him in a cage for the rest of his life. If we are going to house, feed, clothe and provide medical care for life to someone than it should be someone deserving. This killer has no potential of ever being released into society without being a danger to others. He is refuse and a burden we do not have to bear. He forfeited his humanity when he chose to kill.

I'm sorry, I just don't agree with the blanket abolition of the death penalty. This guy has earned it and I only wish his would involve being staked out over an ant hill.

I know people will want to flame me for this but this type of killing really pisses me off.

[Spentastic]

14. I understand

It pisses me off to you know. I just don't think two deaths is better than one under any circumstances. Life inside, no parole, no escape from what he's done. Death seems a bit too easy.

[latebloomer]

15. Horribly sad and infuriating

But if one doesn't believe in the death penalty, one has to be consistent, no matter how hideous the circumstances. And I don't believe in the death penalty.

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. I believe in the death penalty

Anyone who did this will remain a threat to our society for the rest of his life. (Yes, a threat even in prison where guards, visitors, staff and other prisoners can be victimized.) I would like to make that a short threat. And yes, I would be perfectly willing to do the service for the state and wouldn't lose a minute's sleep.

[ET Awful]

29. Ummm, it costs more to execute someone than it does for life in prison

You did know that right?

[Muddleoftheroad]

30. It does, but it shouldn't

We need to fix that part of the process and do a more expedited, but consistently thorough review of each case.

Then we need to go ahead with the sentence.

In the meantime, we need to change the child molestation laws and make the sentences much more severe.

[DaBigJagov]

85. The sentences are quite severe....

.....judges need to enforce them.

[libview]

54. that's only because people who think this guy has

a right to live out his life at the taxpayers expense has made it so difficult to put these sick bastards to death.

[RobinA]

74. It Has Nothing To Do

with this guy's right to live out his life at taxpayer expense. It has to do with whether tha state should be killing people.

[DaBigJagov]

84. How can that possibly be???

That is impossible. I'd love to see the math on that one!!

[Lindacooks]

90. Here's the math

http://www.nodp.org/cnadp/faq.html

It's true, the death penalty costs more than life in prison.

From http://www.deathpenalty.org/facts/other/ineffective.shtml :

"A 1993 California study argues that each death penalty case costs at least $1.25 million more than a regular murder case and a sentence of life without possibility of parole."

From http://pfadp.org/myth7.shtml :

"Speeding up the appeals process was found to have no significant effect on the number of dollars spent."

And finally, from http://www.vadp.org/info.htm :

"Fact 1: Murder rates are lower in states that have abolished the death penalty.
Fact 2: Innocent people are executed.
Fact 3: In the long run, the death penalty does nothing for murder victims' families.
Fact 4: The death penalty is arbitrary and racist.
Fact 5: The death penalty costs more than life imprisonment.
Fact 6: Every western democracy except the USA has abolished the death penalty.
Fact 7: Using the death penalty prevents society from finding effective ways of reducing crime
Fact 8: Public opinion supports alternatives to the death penalty."

[brainwashed_youth]

89. actually

it would cost society more to pay for all the multiple appeals he's bound to try if sentenced to death row. These people are right. killing him will achieve nothing. Let him spend the rest of his life behind bars, doing hard labor 7 days a week, and constantly being terrified of dropping the soap

[WonderGrunion]

101. I'm with you

Just put him in prison and let the other inmates know why he's there. We can save the taxpayers tons of money that way.

[sendero]

16. Yadda, yadda, yadda...

... assuming it can be proven well beyond a reasonable doubt that this man is the culprit, he is no more human than a rabid dog is Fido.

I don't accept the idea that life in prison is "justice" this this kind of premeditated crime. Assholes like him escape all the time, and they know their days are numbered so they have little incentive to act like a human being.

The death penalty is too good for him, but what he really deserves would be unconstitutional.

[Spentastic]

17. Blah blah blah

So easy to be dismissive isn't it.

My opposition to the death penalty remains total. Life inside would hardly be a big bundle of fun

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. Justice

The only advantage about prison is that EVEN PRISONERS understand what scumbag bastards child molesters are. Child molesters have it especially hard in prison and many get a more appropriate sentence from their fellow inmates than we ever give them.

[Spentastic]

20. Justice?

Don't make me laugh.

I guess you'd prefer a decent hanging in the town square.

I don't like child molestors at all. I like mob mentality about as much.

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. I want the convicted criminal punished

Not mob violence. But once convicted, you are guilty. If you have done something so horrible that even prisoners will target you, then so be it.

[Spentastic]

36. Using criminals

as arbiters of justice seems an odd concept to me.

[Muddleoftheroad]

37. Not my concept

Just reality. Since we clearly WON'T deal sufficiently with the monster that did this, I can hope that others will.

[Spentastic]

42. Life without hope of parole

Not enough for you? Bloodlust?

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. Realism

Life WITHOUT parole can just as easily become life with parole at some later point. Or he can escape. Or he can harm others in prison.

I don't want to take chances.

[libview]

56. no such thing, you don't know what's going to happen in 10 or

20 years. some lawyer could win an appeal, all witnesses are gone, tape is missing, who knows. The only way to be sure is to kill him.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

61. Win an appeal? Thanks for PROVING why the Death Penalty is WRONG.

You do realise that to win an appeal, there must have been some FAULT with the verdict don't you? Would you prefer an innocent man be MURDERED to satisfy your bloodlust, rather than risk a guilty man being allowed to live the rest of his life in prison?

I have no qualms about killing child molestors, what I have qualms about is TRUSTING the justice system to ONLY kill GUILTY people. Just look at the number of Death Row inmates who were freed after DNA tests proved their innocence.

THAT is why the Death Penalty should be abolished.

[Muddleoftheroad]

62. Appeals are often based on the ever-changing nature of law

Not on guilt or innocence.

And that is a point that scares many of us. If I know a guy is guilty, I want him to serve his whole sentence, not be let off on a technicality.

As for the DNA evidence. Now that we have it, we should move to do expedited reviews of all death penalty cases. We should ensure that trials were fair. That DNA was tested and that the sentence is carried out if there is no reason not to do so.

[meatloaf]

76. We simply cannot insure that all trials are fair

They are conducted by human beings and human beings are fallible.

Studies have shown that "eyewitnesses" are wrong 89% of the time and yet most people find that type of testimony the most compelling.

Minorities receive the death penalty 75% mor often than whites.

DNA testing and other testing do not rule out flase testimony and othe things that can win a false conviction. There's no way to guarantee that a innocent person will not be put to death.

Besides killing the person does not bring the other person back and it doesn't do much to protect society. It only reinforces the notion that you can get your way with force. How stupid is it for the government to say "do as I say, not as I do"?

[DaBigJagov]

79. Your statistics???

Eyewitnesses are wrong 89% of the time?? That's hard for me to believe, and I would like to see that study and examine the reasons.

As far as minorities recieving the death penalty: So what?? All that means is that minorities commit heineous crimes at a higher rate than whites. Criminal punishment is color-blind in most cases, as is the evidence used for conviction.

[meatloaf]

97. Check out Psych 101 books for the testimony info.

Sorry, but it does not mean that black are committing more heinous crimes. They jsut receive harsher sentences for the same crime. Amnesty international has quite a bit of info/studies on this.

[meatloaf]

72. Not true

Plenty of "convicted" people have later been found innocent often after losing substantial portions of their lives and more than a few on death row.

[Superfly]

25. Sounds good...

when and where?

[progressivebydesign]

94. Really? LIfe inside sounds better than death..

Hmm.. cable t.v. Three sqaure meals. Activities. Cigarettes. Exercise. Workout rooms. Library. Social life. Visits with your family. Opportunity to get a law degree. Better than most low income or homeless people could hope for.

[maveric]

114. Did you ever see the Richard Speck home video from prison?

Showing Speck with a wad of $100.00 bills, snorting coke and showing off his hormone induced breasts while tauntiningly grinning into the camera.
Sometimes life "inside" aint all that bad for some cons.
I support the death penalty for some cases. This is one of them.

[pintobean]

38. Justice and revenge go hand in hand.

Being human, we are unable to remove emotions from the administration of justice. Revenge will play a major roll in this trial and sentence.
Personally, I am torn on the death penalty issue. I really want to be against it, but this case is a strong argument for it. I have a daughter close to Carlie’s age.

[Superfly]

22. I'm with you and I would like to be first in line...

...

[question everything]

48. Florida does have the death penalty and it exercises it with relish

Yet it is clear that having the death penalty does not deter crimes. And, frankly, I think that spending the rest of his life in jail should be a worse punishment than a few minutes of torture, whether by injection or even by the electric chair.

Killing him will not bring her back to life and will not deter future crimes.

But I can see the Limbaugh and company jumping on this case and bashing the Democrats as "soft on crime." Or... he has been in jail before, can we say the Florida Willie Horton?

[DaBigJagov]

80. Certain cases cry out for the death penalty.......

...........and this is certainly one of them. Don't kid yourself into thinking that this guy can be reformed.

Evil does not lend itself to rehabilitation.

[SeanQuinn]

6. I can't make it to school like this.

Such horrible news. I can't do it. I just can't.

[dbt]

8. Yes, you can.

You must. You owe it to the young one. Peace now.

[SeanQuinn]

11. I will. Carlie would've wanted me to.

Off I go.

[Loonman]

9. Killing the bastard wouldn't help

But it'd sure make me feel better.

[laruemtt]

12. why was he free in the first place?

didn't he have a record of attempted rape and/or abduction or something like that? people like that NEVER change and we can't use innocent children as guinea pigs to see if maybe they can change! i'm furious. didn't this just happen in north dakota a few months ago although the girl was college age where the guy had been let out of prison?

[markses]

23. Apparently, he was acquitted of the previous kidnap/ false imprisonment

I'll bet that prosecutor feels pretty shitty today, unable as he was to make a convincing case to a jury.

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. Maybe not the prosecutor

Maybe the jury.

[markses]

33. Perhaps

At the same time, our system puts the onus on the prosecutor to present a solid case.

In this case, Mr. Smith's previous street grab sounds eerily similar to this one (minus the murder, of course), so chances are he was in fact guilty of the crime. The prosecutor - no doubt - will still feel bad that he couldn't convey the clear truth of the case to a jury of twelve.

While I have served on jury duty, and was - like many people - shocked at the seeming ignorance of the other jurors, at the end of the day I saw that the jury actually was scrupulous about following the law, and acted as if the burden of proof was, in fact, on the prosecutor. We convicted, bu not before giving a reasonable, invigorating, and - ultimately - heartening hearing to the defendants case. Far from the "OJ" problem (which assumes most jurors are just stupid), I think that our system is, by and large, pretty damn good. I think most people on juries are honest, dedicated, and ultimately fair (though there are problems with race and perception, to be sure). For this reason, I believe that if a jury acquits, then chances are the prosecutor did not produce a solid case.

[Muddleoftheroad]

35. I too believe in the system

But the system is biased heavily toward defendants making it a virtual certainty that criminals get several chances at bat before they do serious time.

[markses]

40. I don't think so

Most of those charged are convicted - even the vast majority. I take this to be common knowledge; most criminal cases are pleaded out before trial, most that go to trial are convicted. I suppose you could ask for proof here - I would have to ask you for the same kind of proof on your "several times at bat" claim.

The fact that the burden of proof is on the prosecutor in a criminal case does - by definition - bias the proceedings toward the defendant - even heavily. This is as it should be. It is the essence of the system you claim to believe in, not an incidental or accidental feature.

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. Plea bargains

Plea bargains lighten sentences and often result in no jail time. That aspect of the process keeps convictions high but not enough are convicted of the crimes they are initially charged with.

[markses]

55. Perhaps

I did mention plea bargains in my previous post, but the rate of plea bargains is not due to any exorbitant or strange structural bias in the system toward defendants (that is, over and above the proper bias toward defendants that the system maintains as a founding principle); rather, it has everything to do with the logistical and bureaucratic problems of administering mass populations.

[Muddleoftheroad]

64. So?

That still is a de facto bias toward defendants.

[markses]

69. Slippage

We began by discussing a structural bias at trial (internal to the system in principle). Now we've moved to a general bias based on the overall functioning of the system (affecting the system in practice). Since your initial claim of bias was launched against the notion that jury trials are for the most part fair, I take this as a bit of a shift. I'll address it, however.

First, empirically speaking, it is not at all clear that the "plea" system fails to peg defendants on reasonable charges. Because prosecutors frequently "overcharge" defendants (and grand jury indictments are now mostly pro forma), it may be that the "deal" reflects the actual charges that could be proved at trial. This is to leave out the question of pleas reached for the purpose of securing state's evidence against other defendants (which is another question altogether, since it is not strictly involved with logistical and administrative problems).

Second, the problem you bring up is not internal to the system in principle. Of course, you recognize this by noting its de facto operation. But then the question arises: Is the system sufficient to deal with a society of our size? If it were internal to the system, then you could propose solutions within the system. However, since it is not internal to the system in principle, but affects the system as it is practiced in fact, what kind of solutions could be proposed? Only the extension of the system as it is. We could, of course launch a massive program to increase the size of the system - if anyone could live with those expenditures! I'm not sure I see a solution to the logistical problem in any tendency toward "stricter application" - much less "stricter punishment." These are not logictical solutions to what you readily admit is a logistical problem. In other words, it's a question begging operation.

[patcox2]

92. As a former public defender I can support that

No way, no how, does the current system of plea bargains result in a bias towards defendants. That is a myth propagated by the police (they like to bitch; they think a system which is tilted overwhelmingly in their favor is so unfair to them; they think they should win 100% of the time, and not just 98%) and demagogued by conservatives.

Charges are routinely "piled on" far beyond the actual conduct of the defendant, and its usually a fight to plead them down to where they should be anyay. Smoke a joint in a car with 4 other guys? Lets see, thats possession, and its also distribution, and conspiracy, and since it was your pot, you are a drug kingpin, what with being the leader of this conspiracy to distribute. Mandatory 5 years if you are within 1000 feet of a school, playground, or park, of course (studies show that 80% of any urban or suburban area is within one of these "school zones.") I should note that this scenario is the "black person" scenario. White people for some curious reason are treated differently. There are amazingly few white Amadou Diallos.

As an appellate level public defender, I once won one issue on appeal, but the court held that it was harmless error and the guy stayed in jail anyway. Fact is that way, way less than 10% of appeals lead to a reversal or acquittal. Thats less than 10% of the less than 10% who go to trial. In other words, the appeal process results in about 1% of those charged with a crime "getting off."

Google the phrase "police perjury" some day, thats a topic in itself. My favorite day as a lawyer was the day I was engaged in bargaining for a plea for my client. The charging officer is always involved, he usually has to okay the deal. I was arguing that my client had a defense, a good defense. cop said "I don't care, because when I take the stand I am going to lie and put your guy away." I have heard cops in the courthouse bragging at their success in achieving convictions through lying. They are well intentioned, of course, they think it necessary because of their beleif that the system is stacked against them, and they don't lie unless they are sure the guy is guilty anyway, its just to get around that pesky little requirement that they have to prove it.

[FlaGranny]

112. It has to be biased toward the defendant.

If it weren't we'd be putting many more innocent people in jail than we are now.

I personally know a man who was arrested for a brutal rape and spent nearly a year in jail waiting for trial (didn't have the money for bail), on an eyewitness identification. Trouble is, he was innocent, which was eventually proven beyond a doubt even before the trial. So, innocent people sometimes are arrested. This man was extremely lucky that he could prove his innocence, because, as we all know, innocence is sometimes harder to prove than guilt. He was very, very fortunate that he was relatively well known (a small businesman in the community) and had an abundance of reputable witnesses who proved he could not have been the perpetrator. He won a large award for false arrest because of negligence by the police and prosecutor. This was a married man with a family to support. I was very happy to find out he won his false arrest case. Things like that shouldn't happen to nice people - but they sometimes do.

Our laws are purposely written to give the benefit of the doubt to the accused and the above case shows why.

On edit: My husband and I are two of the people that absolutely knew 100% first hand that it was impossible from him to have been guilty.

[progressivebydesign]

95. The jury believed his story that he was misunderstood.

I guess the poor woman that he jumped on top of and threatened to kill with a knife, was trying to get away from him and was saved by a passerby. The jury believed his lame ass story that she misunderstood him, that he was trying to keep her from going out into traffic. Crimes against women are a "gimme" in the legal system.. STILL. Steal money, you're locked up for years.. assault a woman, you're on the street in no time. Once a guy does something like that, he's not going to stop. He just escalates it. I hope someone kacks the bastard in jail.. or maybe we'll get lucky and the sniveling coward will hang himself.

[LiberalBushFan]

81. because them darned libruls don't wanna put anyone in jail

that's what most people think and what they say on talk radio. Really it's because Ashcroft needs to make room for the real criminals - pot smokers.

[macdevo]

21. So sad

It's so sad. I really feel for the family. What is terrible is that if this guy would have been sent back to prison for breaking prior paroles she would still be alive.

So sad.

[MaineDem]

27. Why is this bothering me so much?

For some reason, this murder hit me unusually hard this morning. So sad...

[Superfly]

28. Me, too...

...

[Bunny]

31. Because you witnessed it.

You saw this poor child's last moments on earth. You saw her confusion, you saw him drag her, you saw that she was reluctant to go. You saw this one, and that's why it's bothering you so much.

[markses]

39. Ding Ding Ding

First person to be truly honest about this one. While this story is certainly heartbreaking, and would be even if we had read about it in a newspaper, we must admit that this kind of crime is replicated many times every year without much publicity, and that the true power in this case lies in its visual appeal . Now, of course I'm using "appeal" here very loosely (nobody found that scene appealing, IOW). However, I think we must admit that, as we move toward a visual rather than print culture, visual sensations lodge more firmly in our emotional systems. The visual in this case is terrifying, but is there a kind of desire for that visual. In other words, we don't often see that kind of dark scene, and it is even shocking in its ordinariness - so quick, so seemingly commonplace, so filled with horror. Needless to say, our visual field is filled with these scenes - as "fantasy," (and I mean fantasy not in a good way, but as our fictional or imagined field) in the movies. It is when the Real suddenly takes on that "fantasy" character that we are drawn to it.

No doubt, the murder of this child is a horror beyond words. What's strange is that we try to access that horror through the videotape.

[pintobean]

44. I agree with your point.

However, if we had actually witnessed this child’s last moments, Joseph Smith would likely be dead by now. The headlines would read, “Police unable to stop mob”.

[markses]

45. True

Good point.

[Bunny]

46. Would there be a down side to that?

j/k, sorta.

[TeeYiYi]

65. We saw her last 'innocent' moments . . .

. . . which is why it is so disconcerting. As adults, we suspect he will do to her what she, in her innocence, can't possibly forsee and we're helpless to protect her from it. Thank god the horrible conclusion happened off camera.

Once convicted, his monster needs to DIE.

TYY :(

[Maddy McCall]

32. Body found BEHIND CHURCH (sick MF!) near Sarasota carwash

The body of an 11-year-old girl whose abduction was captured by a surveillance camera was found in a church parking lot, and a mechanic has been charged with her murder, officials said Friday.

Sarasota County Sheriff Bill Balkwill declined to say where Carlie Brucia's body was found, but a law enforcement source close to the investigation said it was found between 12:45 a.m. and 1 a.m. Friday outside a church near the car wash where she was taken.

"Our prayers on behalf of everybody here in Sarasota County go out to the family," Balkwill said.

He said Joseph P. Smith, 37, has been charged with the girl's murder. Smith is believed to be the tattooed man in a mechanic's shirt who was seen in a car wash surveillance video leading Carlie away by the arm Sunday evening, authorities said.

Investigators found the body after negotiations with Smith, said the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity. Earlier, authorities had said Smith was not cooperating.


http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nat-gen/2004/feb/06/020602125.html

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. That little detail about the church

Won't sit well with a jury.

Thank God.

[markses]

43. You're referring to a penalty phase, of course?

I presume you'd want a jury to decide based on reason and evidence, and not emotions, at least in the guilt phase, yes?

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. Yes, penalty phase

I do want ONLY the guilty convicted.

But, if guilty, I can't imagine a sentence I would oppose -- as long as it resulted in death.

[markses]

58. I won't even try to convince you otherwise

As questions like the death penalty in some sense fall back on to axiomatics. For me, it is axiomatic that the state cannot kill a human being, even under the veil of juridical procedure. For others, other axioms apply.

At the end of the day, I think our axiom is winning world-wide, and in 100 years the death penalty will be viewed as just as barbaric and primitive as drawing and quartering, or crucifiction, are today.

[Muddleoftheroad]

67. Don't bet on it

The world is an ever-changing place. Just because you think the death penalty is the past, it might also be the future. Look at how the U.S. turned on this issue.

[markses]

71. I'm not persuaded

I appreciate your fervor, however.

[meatloaf]

77. study after study shows that as people are educated

about the death penalty. How it's appplied, enforced, etc... The more their support for it wanes.

[DaBigJagov]

86. Please let me know where I can find

one of those studies.

[meatloaf]

96. Let me do a little research and see what I can find for you...

If you're in a hurry you might want to check Amnesty International, they may have some links.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

59. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...

...and assume you don't seriously think public torture would be a good thing.

"I can't imagine a sentence I would oppose -- as long as it resulted in death."

[Muddleoftheroad]

68. I wouldn't vote for it

Not 100% sure if I would want to stop it.

[RebelOne]

57. I think it is going to be hard to find a jury that won't be emotional

about this horrid crime.

[markses]

60. It will be difficult, if not impossible

However, we do assume that the jury will take the specific case, and weigh the specific evidence against the specific defendant, and - weighing the law as it is explained to them - publically use their reason to determine the outcome. In other words, if a jury convicts this defendant simply because it is angry or outraged about this crime , then justice will not have been done, at least as we define justice under our current system of jurisprudence. As for that other "truer" justice (of the universe, or whatever), that may be well and good as a talking point, but I don't think any of us would want to live with the wild consequences of an unstructured "common sense" justice. The assumption of a reasonable jury may be counterfactual, but it is normative, and essential to the integrity of our justice system, and, ultimately, to our existence as a free society.

[rocktivity]

108. The body was found near the car wash?

Sarasota County Sheriff Bill Balkwill declined to say where Carlie Brucia's body was found, but a law enforcement source close to the investigation said it was found between 12:45 a.m. and 1 a.m. Friday outside a church near the car wash where she was taken.

What? All that searching around and the body was right next door from the scene of the crime? If I were the sheriff, I'd "decline to say," too.


rocknation

[bicentennial_baby]

41. Fuck....I knew this was coming

I'm crying for Carlie as I type. Please DU women, get yourselves and your children into a self-defense program. It can and will save your lives. This is the program I am currently attending:

"The Rape Aggression Defense System is a program of realistic self-defense tactics and techniques for women. The R.A.D. System is a comprehensive, women-only course that begins with awareness, prevention, risk reduction and risk avoidance, while progressing on to the basics of hands-on defense training. R.A.D. is not a Martial Arts program. Our courses are taught by nationally certified R.A.D. Instructors and provide each student with a workbook/reference manual. This manual outlines the entire Physical Defense Program for reference and continuous personal growth, and is the key to our free lifetime return and practice policy for R.A.D. graduates."


http://www.rad-systems.com/

They have children's courses too!

[GinaMaria]

47. Thank you

I was looking for one to donate to today in Carlie's name. I contacted a chicago organization that offers women's self defense to ask if they offer classes for kids. I'll post their response when I receive it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

52. Try donating here

The Polly Klaas Foundation is a national nonprofit that helps find missing children and prevents children from going missing in the first place. We accomplish our goals by promoting public policies, educating the public and providing families, law enforcement and communities with the ongoing support and expertise needed to protect our children. We welcome you to our web site and thank you for your interest.

http://www.pollyklaas.org/index.htm

[DuctapeFatwa]

75. It would be cool to set up a "scholarship" program for poor kids

to RAD or a similar self-defense program, where people who have more money, or who don't have kids, could donate the price of a course so that some little kid whose parents can't afford it could go.

Even cooler would be to find a few instructors who would be willing to donate their time to hold a free class in a low income area.

[GinaMaria]

88. That's what the Chicago Impact group has for women

I am waiting to hear if they offer a scholarship program for kids self defense. I'll post when I hear.

[progressivebydesign]

98. My heart goes out to the family and friends..

THis is so horrible. Made much worse for the public by the photo/video being made public. To see her alive, makes you hope she'd still be alive. I didn't view the video, I don't know if it was even available to the public. I couldn't bear to. The photo was enough.

I have a 12 year old daughter. I showed her the photo of the guy leading her away by the arm. We talked, once again, about what to do in those situations. Her first response.. "I don't care if the guy had a gun on me, I would have been jumping up and down and screaming and trying to get out to the street". We've taught her that if you get into someone's car, if they remove you from where they find you, you're pretty much dead. It's a sad thing to teach, but it's true. It's a fact. She and I agreed we'd much rather be shot or stabbed right there in public, than to be taken somewhere else to be killed and worse. Every woman should know that. Not every woman or child will take a class in self defense. But if they know to fight back in any way possible, make a scene, they have a chance.

There is a book called, The Gift of Fear. Written by a man who was in law enforcement for many years. It talks about those issues. It talks about how willingly we allow our fear of hurting a stranger's feelings (as women and girls), to overrun our natural instincts of fear. I believe he has a book for girls now, too. It'll scare you, but it's so worth it.

[MaineDem]

105. Hear Hear

And fighting back can be as simple as yelling "Fire" (people don't always respond to "help".)

I took a short self-defense course many year ago. One thing I learned was how to make a fist. I had my thumb in the wrong place.

[Magleetis]

63. Smith has been arrested 13 times

I am not for 3 strikes laws, however this is one case where it might have worked. It seems every time you hear about 3 strikes in the news it has backfired. Can't our government get anything right?

[SixShooter]

73. Terrible!

I live in Sarasota and used to hang out at Evie's mini golf course all the time, right next to the car wash.

This is so terrible. Im tempted to walk down there and execute the bastard with an assault rifle myself.

This guy needs to die period. And when he does I want to be there to hear him scream.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

83. Uh yeah...

you already said that. :eyes:

[FlaGranny]

113. It all depends on what those three strikes are for

three shoplifting convictions do not equal three assault convictions.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

87. What a tragic, senseless and horrific event

My sincere and heartfelt thoughts, prayers and condolences are extended to the family and friends of this girl. This is a very profound tragedy and the loss of such a young, promising and beautiful young girl deeply grieves me. What a senseless, evil and perverted act. What a sick world. Words will not adequately convey the extent of my sadness, profound grief and anger at this senseless tragedy

[Blue_Tires]

93. I'm not trying to minimize the loss

or make light of it, but i feel this needs to be said...

Why is this a national story?? What makes this one special? Where I live, teens get shot every day, children abducted and never heard from again, babies get found decomposing in dumpsters, etc...These things probably happen in most of your hometowns, too...

I guess my question is: where is all the outrage over the other tens of thousands of unsolved and unavenged murders, slaughters of the innocent, and other injustices? I've been reading DU for awhile, and this is the first time i've seen not only so many advocates of the death penalty, but people itching to throw the switch...

Why no bloodthirsty mob over Janklow? or the guy who got 1 year for killing the gay activist in TN? Does anyone see what I'm getting at?

[progressivebydesign]

99. I know you're not...

It's a valid question. It's because her photo and video made her very real to a lot of people. Media drives things like this, and it's much easier to care about someone you actually saw being kidnapped, rather than just reading about it. It's human nature, and it's the media.

I'm sure you feel very badly for her and her family. Children and animals are the most sympathetic victims.. it's human nature to want to protect them.

[Dulcinea]

100. terrible tragedy

My prayers & deepest sympathies to Carlie's family & friends.

I can hardly imagine what they must be feeling.

No fate is too evil for her murderer, as far as I'm concerned.

[LibDemAlways]

107. I hope the scumbag gets whatever he deserves. However,

when she was abducted Carlie was walking home alone from a friend's house because her stepdad was late picking her up and she wasn't at the corner where she had been told to wait. My question, as the mother of a 10-year-old daughter, is why was Carlie set loose unsupervised from the friend's house in the first place? In this day and age 11 is too young to be roaming city streets alone. It was the responsibility of the friend's parent to see that Carlie was safely returned to her family and her own family's responsibility to pick her up at the friend's house - not on a public street corner. I think a little common sense would have prevented this tragedy in the first place.

[KC]

109. This just

infuriates me. He has a record a mile long. If he had been made to serve his previous sentence(s) in full, he whould have NEVER been out of prison in the first place. Now this little girl is dead, like so many other of our children who have been kidnapped and murdered by these criminals.

If someone gets 20 years, life or whatever, they need to serve it til the last day, not get out in a yr or two.

KC

[lucky777]

115. Why was she meeting him at a car wash?

Obviously, it has nothing to do with guilt or innocence, but why was she at the car wash? The camera did not show any water, so it wasn't to get a car washed? Does any one have the answer to this question?

[Blitz]

116. She was not meeting him

She was apparently walking home past the car wash.