Conservatives Expected to Split Episcopal Church: Gay bishop, blessing gay unions precipitated split

[DeepModem Mom]

Source: New York Times

Five years after the Episcopal Church consecrated its first openly gay bishop, disaffected conservatives were expected to declare on Wednesday that they are founding their own rival Anglican province in North America.

The schism would create two competing provinces on the same soil, each claiming the mantle of historical Anglican Christianity. The conservative group plans to unveil a constitution and canons for its new province in an event at a large evangelical church here in Wheaton, which is outside of Chicago, on Wednesday evening.

The move threatens the fragile unity of the Anglican Communion, the world’s third largest Christian body, made up of 38 provinces around the world that trace their roots to the Church of England and its leader, the Archbishop of Canterbury. This is the first effort to create a province defined by theological orientation, not by geography....

The proposed new province will have about 100,000 members and take in four Episcopal dioceses and dozens of parishes in the United States and Canada that recently voted to leave the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada.

They claim those churches have broken with traditional Christianity in many ways, but the development that precipitated their departure was the decision to ordain an openly gay bishop and to bless gay unions.

Besides Pittsburgh, those dioceses are Fort Worth, Tex., Quincy, Ill., and San Joaquin, in the Central Valley of California — representing four of about 100 dioceses in the Episcopal Church. However, not all the parishes and Episcopalians in those four dioceses agreed to leave the Episcopal Church....

***

The Episcopal Church has about 2.3 million members — with about a third of those attending worship services on an average Sunday....

***

If the conservatives try to take their church properties with them, they are likely to face lawsuits from the Episcopal Church. The church is already suing breakaway parishes and dioceses in several states to retain church property — a precedent that could inhibit others from leaving....

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/us/04episcopal.html?hp=&pagewanted=all

[GodlessBiker]

1. It is good when Churches break up into smaller and smaller groups.

We should encourage disunity.

[DeepModem Mom]

2. Even churches that stand for embracing and empowering gays --

and blessing their unions?

[wryter2000]

3. Yeah, sure

Let's hope for the demise of a church that's on the forefront of naming gays and women to positions of authority as well as recognizing gay marriage. That's a great idea.

[GodlessBiker]

4. As they say, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[wryter2000]

13. The American Episcopal church isn't broken

I'm not even a believer but an agnostic. I wish people like you would stop making non-believers look like arrogant, ignorant a-holes.

[closeupready]

5. Good riddance you homophobic bigots, and don't come back.

:mad:

[DeepModem Mom]

6. The split is a sad thing, but I agree. Let the bigots go! nt

[ksimons]

7. when they break up based on their own beliefs, that should tell you everything about those beliefs

they don't hold water - and they will continue to marginalize themselves as they fight for rotting old principals that only the 75 year olds and older stand by

as the older segments (more conservative and biased) split off, they take with them the old fashioned ideas, while the more vitalizing, younger moderate church members ensure that only their half of the church will live on, leaving the old church members and their old fashioned ways to die off in but a few years

don't you just love how this generational thing works?

[DeepModem Mom]

8. I hadn't thought of it that way. You are, thankfully, right! nt

[JerseygirlCT]

16. Yes, let's hope this branch withers and dies, leaving the

tree that much stronger.

I think you're right. We'll be that much more united, less fractious without the likes of Pittsburgh and San Joaquin making their fuss.

I guess the next GC might be interesting!

[brer cat]

9. A friend of ours belongs to a congregation that split

off from the Episcopal Church when the gay bishop was consecrated. Every time I drive by, I think "that's the 'church' founded on HATE."

Let them go!

[tomg]

10. I would have to disagree with the Times'

headline. Rather than "Gay bishop, blessing gay unions precipitated split" shouldn't it be "Homophobic Assholes, denying basic Christian tenet on Love, precipitated split." Just asking.

[JerseygirlCT]

12. Yes. And I'm darned sick of that whole twist, too.

As if the fault is with Gene Robinson or those who refused to continue to discriminate...

[elleng]

24. Conservatives Expected to Split Episcopal Church earlier headline:

Sure didn't get so much attention at DU!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=406797&mesg_id=406797

[annabanana]

26. EXACTLY!

They alligned themselves with Bishops in Africa who agree with the radical anti-gay view. (Interestingly enough, some of these African Bishops have multiple wives)

[JerseygirlCT]

11. More hysterics from the media

A small group of people, who have been gone in all but name for years now anyway, are leaving.

They cannot take the property with them. They are not the Episcopal Church. It's doubtful they'll even get recognition from the Anglican Communion. (Although nothing his weeniness the ABC does these days would surprise me).

I can even see how getting rid of these loud and ugly discontents will leave the actual church stronger, more convicted and unified going forward. Would be a nice thing!

But it gets more attention to scream SCHISM!!! BREAK IN THE CHURCH!!! When it's really a small percentage of ugly bigots stalking off because the rest of us won't continue to discriminate against women and gays and lesbians...

[DeepModem Mom]

14. Kind of related, from the article --

"James Naughton, canon for communications and advancement in the Episcopal Diocese of Washington, and a liberal who frequently blogs on Anglican affairs, said he doubted that a rival Anglican province could grow much larger.

'I think this organization does not have much of a future because there are already a lot of churches in the United States for people who don’t want to worship with gays and lesbians,' he said. 'That’s not a market niche that is underserved.'"

[JerseygirlCT]

15. LOL

Love it.

"market niche"...

[TrogL]

36. I've been calling for this schism for years

I'm tired of having Anglican liturgy and theology dumbed down to cater to the Evangelicals. It's time for them to go join the Bapists or Jebus-churches where they belong.

My own church had an internal schism over female priests where half the congregation bolted, then another one over female bishops. Good riddance.

[xchrom]

17. new people come to the episcopal church because they're liberal --

not because they anti-gay, anti-woman bigots.

the conservatives will soon enough find a wall they can't deal with -- and the fate that awaits them.

oh -- um -- and -- the pensions and property? -- they won't be going with the conservatives.

[yardwork]

18. If the anti-gay conservatives leave the Episcopalian Church, I might rejoin.

I left the church long ago over this issue.

[kwassa]

19. well, my diocese has many openly gay clergy and church members

and has for the past 13 years that I've been a member, after I moved her. The total number of anti-gay churches is quite small, nationally.

I'm in the Washington DC diocese.

The rector at my former church is a lesbian, and her partner is recognized as her partner and an active member of the church community.

[yardwork]

22. I might rejoin....

[freestyle]

34. How long ago did you leave? TEC is quite liberal on the whole.

I am a lifelong Episcopalian and have remained so specifically because of the support for GLBT members. My partner and I had a covenant service in our church two years ago. Yes, there are people who disagree with the affirming direction of the Church, and there are setbacks from time to time. There are also differences from diocese to diocese, as there are differences among areas of the country. The overall direction is very positive. Give us another chance. You will hopefully be pleasantly surprised.

[TrogL]

38. See if there's an AngloCatholic parish in your area

While a few have got with the schism, most are reasonable.

[superconnected]

20. Quick, hide this thread from the DU atheists that are intolerant of any belifes of others, that OMG,

some churches allow gays. Hide this! Only yesterday we had blanket statements that all Christians were against gays.

[Joe Bacon]

21. Scaife and Ahmanson dumped millions to trigger this

Sad that my hometown of Ambridge PA seems to be the nerve center of this movement. Scaife and Ahmanson funneled a lot of cash into town to set up a right wing Episcopal seminary to trigger this.

[DeepModem Mom]

23. Thanks for that reminder, Joe. It's an important part of the story. nt

[Joe Bacon]

25. SO sad, Scaife's goons took over the town

I left Ambridge in 1982, just when the steel industry collapsed and moved out to Los Angeles. 20 years later, I came back for my father's funeral, it was so sad, the whole town was economically dead and these right wingers were calling the shots.

[kwassa]

32. well, Bob Duncan and his friends triggered this

the seminary itself didn't do it.

Duncan is to be the new archbishop, but there are so many competing egos involved in this so-called church, that it will be interesting to see how long it holds together.

This will never be recognized by the Archbishop of Canterbury, either.

The four diocese that claim to have left represent about 2% of the total Episcopal church-going population, from the math that I've seen. The movement is widely spread, but not very deep. Fort Worth, Quincy, Illinois, San Joaquin, and Pittsburg.

[crim son]

27. A group breaking off of a Protestant church? What's new?

And I'd be pleased to belong to a Church where gays and lesbians are not merely tolerated, but embraced.

[fjc]

28. This is what Christianity has come down to.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. Somebody in the comments section of the NY Times brought up an

interesting angle that I never thought of before, but it makes sense.

Gene Robinson was consecrated bishop in 2003. Sure, the conservatives grumbled, but what has REALLY set them off is the election of Katherine Jefferts-Schori as Presiding Bishop.

The breakaways have to know (unless they've been wearing blinders) that there are and always have been gay clergy and bishops, but the idea of having a woman in the top spot?

Remember, too, that some of the Third World bishops refused to have anything to do with Jefferts-Schori at the Lambeth Conference.

[DeepModem Mom]

31. That's right -- the issue of women is also a BIG part of this. Someone posted upthread...

what I hadn't thought of -- that people for whom these issues are important are passing from the scene. Much of this is generational, and my hope is that there is a more humane and enlightened time ahead.

[freestyle]

35. The ACNA's proposed Constitution bans female bishops.

You are quite correct that there is a strong undercurrent of misogyny and fear of the feminine in the formation of the new province. That they are allowing female clergy is clearly a sop to the former Diocese of Pittsburgh, but the goal of a patriarchal restoration is clear. It is also interesting that the most recent departures from the Episcopal Church have not been to affiliate with African provinces, but with the Southern Cone. The Province of the Southern Cone is based in Argentina, but the Primate is Gregory Venables, who has one key difference with any other global south primate.

[VaYallaDawg]

30. What a crock. If all the gay priests were kicked out of the Episc. church

it would be self-service.

[kwassa]

33. The Archbishop of Canterbury has already rejected this "province"

and it is shocking to hear a response in a timely manner



http://www.episcopalchurch.org/79901_103367_ENG_HTM.htm

Lambeth Palace responds to Common Cause Partnership announcement
December 04, 2008

A spokesperson for Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams has responded to the Common Cause Partnership's December 3 release of a provisional constitution and canons that outline the formation of what they are calling a new Anglican province in North America.
"There are clear guidelines set out in the Anglican Consultative Council Reports, notably ACC 10 in 1996 (resolution 12), detailing the steps necessary for the amendments of existing provincial constitutions and the creation of new provinces," the spokesperson said. "Once begun, any of these processes will take years to complete. In relation to the recent announcement from the meeting of the Common Cause Partnership in Chicago, the process has not yet begun."

The ACC10 resolution is available here.

[DemoTex]

37. Only one in the Texas delegation (lay & clergy) voted for Gene Robinson in 2003.

That one moral stand-out, Mark Anshutz, a nationally acclaimed Episcopal minister, is a good friend of mine. He lost his church in Dallas, St. Michael and All the Angels, because of his courageous vote in favor of installing Gene Robinson as bishop.

Bishop Robinson is now in his seat of ecclesiastical authority, my friend Mark is happily retired on his beloved Cape Cod, and the homophobic Texas "Christians" of the conservative Episcopalian persuasion are hell-bent to tear the church apart over minutia.

May they stew in their manifold hatred, fear and loathing until their rooms in hell, near their dear Lord Cheney, are ready. Forever and ever.

Amen

[bemildred]

39. Heretics! Schismatics! Apostates! Backsliders!

:rofl::rofl: