Obama spells end of blank cheques for Israel

[scytherius]

Source: Yahoo News

Israel can no longer expect "blank cheques" from Washington once president-elect Barack Obama's administration takes over in January, a former US ambassador to the Jewish state said on Sunday.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081207/wl_mideast_afp/mideastisraelusdiplomacyobama

[bemildred]

1. Oh good.

A three popcorn thread.
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[Name removed]

2. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RC]

3. And this is a good thing.

We were so close to a peace agreement between Israel and Palestine when bu$h was installed. He set it aside like it was no big deal.

[onehandle]

4. This is not from the Obama transition team. It's Opinion.

And it's not true.

There will be less U.S. led war in the Middle East and more negotiation. That's all.

Israel will continue to get whatever it wants from us.

[DUlover2909]

6. How much money do they get from us?

Do any other countries contribute to supporting Israel? Does Israel make much money on its own?

[leftchick]

24. waaaaaaaaay too much

We treat Israel better than our own country.



A Conservative Total for U.S. Aid to Israel: $91 Billion and Counting
By Shirl McArthur, Washington Report on Middle East Affairs

With the turmoil surrounding the presidential election essentially freezing Congress into inaction, this is probably a good time to take another look at aid to Israel. The common figure given for U.S. aid to Israel is $3 billion per year—$1.2 billion in economic aid and $1.8 billion in military aid. As impressive as this figure is, however, since it represents about one-sixth of total U.S. foreign aid, the true figure is even more remarkable. It is difficult, however, to arrive at an exact number. Much of the money the U.S. gives Israel is buried in the budgets of other government agencies, primarily the Defense Department (DOD). Other subsidies come in a form that isn’t easily quantifiable, such as the early disbursement of aid, which allows Israel to gain (and the U.S. taxpayer to lose) the interest on the unspent money.

This year’s appropriations bills for FY 2001, which began Oct. 1, 2000, include, in addition to the $2.82 billion in economic and military foreign aid to Israel, an additional $60 million in so-called refugee resettlement and $250 million in the DOD budget, plus $85 million imputed interest, for a total of at least $3.215 billion. In addition, on Nov. 14, 2000, President William Clinton sent a special request to Congress for an additional $450 million in military aid to Israel in FY 2001, plus $350 million for FY 2002.

The package also included $225 million in military aid for Egypt and $75 million in security assistance for Jordan. The $450 million for Israel is not included in these calculations, because it is unclear at this writing whether Congress will approve the package in the current political climate.

Calculating Total U.S. Aid

Unquestionably, Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. aid since World War II. Estimates for total U.S. aid to Israel vary, however, because of the uncertainties and ambiguities described above. An Oct. 27, 2000 Congressional Research Service (CRS) report, using available and verifiable numbers, gives cumulative aid to Israel from 1949 through FY 2000 (which ended Sept. 30, 2000) at $81.38 billion. On the other hand, last year the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs estimated total aid to Israel through FY 2000 at $91.82 billion.

The CRS number surely is too low, because, although it does include such things as the old food-for-peace program, the $1.2 billion from the Wye agreement, and the current subsidy for “refugee resettlement,” it does not include money from the DOD budget, on the grounds that those funds are for joint research and development projects. Nor does the CRS figure include estimated interest on the early disbursement of aid funds. Last year’s Washington Report estimate imputes an amount for other aid (including the DOD) that may no longer be valid, based as it is on a thorough study of three representative years. While this year’s estimate is more conservative, the results are still shockingly high.

http://130.94.183.89/magazine/israel.html


And this was before the neocons began to run the show and started WWIII in the MidEast.

[mamameow]

30. blackmail for good

israel is an antagonist, troublemaker and they do not want peace. their current behavior is profitable for them. did you know that if you own a business like an advertising agency and you have 3 competitors and you are the most successful one, you cannot increase your profits until your competitors catch up to you. some democracy!!!! this is from a friends of mine from jerusalem who owns a very successful advertising agency. we need oversight in regards to Israel, their democracy should match ours---oh wait maybe that is not good idea until we get ours back.

[aquart]

69. Are you 12?

Does your mother know where you are?

[aquart]

70. Anyone else you're concerned about?

Or only places where there are Jews?

[leftchick]

74. give it up

This is not a Jewish issue and you know it. :eyes:

[PassingFair]

31. Sounds like big time republican shit stirring to me.

I keep hearing about how "not a friend" to Israel
that Obama is ... from republican acquaintances.

[TomClash]

39. Martin Indyk is more than "opinion"

He's pretty high up on the US ME pay grade - and almost reflexively pro-Israel. That makes it significant.

[Idealism]

5. Good its about time we stopped sending $40 billion over there a decade

Especially since they don't even have to buy anything for their military from our Defense sector companies; the only country we send aid to that DOESNT have to buy 100% of their military needs from the US by the way.

[harmonicon]

7. yeah, it's bullshit

I think that if they are threatened unjustly, we should defend them, as we should do with any other country. However, I really think that sending them money has to stop. It's destroying chances for peace between Israel and its neighbours and also ruining our relations with countries in the region.

Why aren't we using that money to help stop wars in Africa, or to stop them from breaking out? What about using it to fight disease? What about spending it on healthcare and education in our own country? It drives me mad.

[Idealism]

11. Precisely the problem

Israel feels a need to be one of the top military powers in the world, why? Because they don't want peace, they want to force Palestinians out of Gaza by military might. They've adopted their own Bush Doctrine now, trying to gin up support for a pre-emptive strike into Iran over what? Mahmoud DOESNT CONTROL THE COUNTRY. He is a figurehead, like the Queen of England-- sure he can go on the television and make a speech, but the Ayahtollah controls the country, with the mullahs backing. Mahmoud is powerless and won't even win re-election thanks to falling oil prices and failing to make good on campaign promises.

[freedomnorth]

9. Why bother when you can have...

[jaksavage]

18. Kid sized fire power.

:(

[TheCowsCameHome]

44. Very popular at NE fun and games days.

[High Plains]

8. Somehow, I doubt it. The US is hopelessly biased in Israel's favor.

On both sides of the aisle. That's part of why the Arab world loves us so much.

[sendero]

15. That's ALL ..

... of why they hate us. ALL.

[sufrommich]

23. How hopelessly naive. nt

[The Stranger]

37. Actually, he/she isn't being naive at all.

[pattmarty]

10. I really don't think this will happen, but my opinion is...........

..........cut them off and let 'em swim in their own shit for a while.

Edit to add: At one time they had the whole world on their side. Now, they have become almost what they hated and escaped from, fascists (kinda like the USA).

[still_one]

12. gee, the opinon of Martin Indyk, speaking before the brookings instutue, which has supported bush

policy. No surprise that they would try to stir up shit

Who gives a damn what these people think. The bush policies of the last eight years did everything to destabilize the middle east the last 8 years

When bush took over in 2000, he refused to continue the peace talks that Clinton had left him, invaded Iraq based on a lie, and essentially made this world a much worse place

Instead of idiot FORMER ambASSadors pontificating and trying to stir up shit, it would be more productive to engage all parties in a lasting peace

[Crunchy Frog]

13. Excellent news if true.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[jkappy]

14. wishful thinking by Right & Left

[sendero]

16. Some people say that..

.. like it's a bad thing. Israel is not our friend we owe them NOTHING.

[TheWraith]

17. Translation: We're going to obey international law, and so are you. nt

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

19. Lieberman musta just crapped his pants big time.

:headbang:

[matcom]

20. WOOOHOOO!!

:woohoo:

[bdamomma]

21. blank cheques is correct.

plenty of them have been issued by the bush regime. crap, this has got to stop, we are selling weapons to everyone this must stop.

[defendandprotect]

22. And no more "winking" at their warmongering, I hope-!! Good news--!!

[cali]

33. lol. cracks me up to hear Americans stating that the most warmongering

country on the face of the earth, shouldn't wink at Israel's warmongering.

[defendandprotect]

54. Why? Don't you want it ALL stopped ...???

Bush gave license to Israel to go on the latest rampage ...
has it been 5-6 years, or more?

Yes -- America is THE terrorist nation ...as many if us know!

[leftchick]

25. if only

:(

[lebkuchen]

26. That's one way to get ourselves out of debt

Let Israel take care of itself.

[bvar22]

27. Israel should be sending financial aid to the USA.

Among other things, all Israelis enjoy cradle to grave FREE Universal HealthCare.
Part of the money that pays for Israeli HealthCare comes from taxes on Middle Class Working Americans who have NO HealthCare.

What's wrong with THAT picture?

[Behind the Aegis]

28. Can you provide proof?

I have not heard this: "Part of the money that pays for Israeli HealthCare comes from taxes on Middle Class Working Americans who have NO HealthCare.

[bvar22]

36. Yes.

Health care in Israel is both universal and compulsory, and is administered by a small number of organizations with funding from the government. All Israeli citizens are entitled to the same Uniform Benefits Package,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Israel

[Behind the Aegis]

38. That doesn't prove your assertion.

"Part of the money that pays for Israeli HealthCare comes from taxes on Middle Class Working Americans who have NO HealthCare."

[ima_sinnic]

40. $$ given to Israel from US Govt come from taxpayers. Middle-class working Americans

are taxpayers, and many of them have no health care.
THEREFORE, part of the money that pays for Israeli HealthCare comes from taxes on Middle Class Working Americans who have NO Health Care.

seems pretty obvious to me.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. If it were that simple, but it is not.

To my knowledge, the monies given to Israel are for defense and research, which is why I asked. It is not the same as sending $3 billion and saying "spend it any way you want."

[nebenaube]

43. geesh... you're a bright one! n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

49. and you are not.

[bvar22]

50. It is that simple.

I had a brother that was abusing drugs in the 90s.
He would come to me for money because he couldn't pay his rent.
I would make out a check to his landlord because I didn't want my money to pay for his drugs.

The TRUTH was that by paying his rent, I was freeing him up to use "his" money to buy drugs.
It was only by my refusing to pay his rent that he crashed and sought help. By giving my brother money to pay his rent, I was directly financing his purchase of drugs.

I realize from your avatar that you have a partisan agenda, and that will make it difficult for you to admit the truth.
The TRUTH is that government budgets are zero sum.
I am an American Taxpayer.
I cannot afford Health Insurance.
American Taxpayer money helps pay for Universal HealthCare in Isreal.
It is dishonest to argue otherwise.

A better argument would be:
"So what? That little sum of money is the least of your problems as a US Taxpayer.
You should be glad that at least that small portion of your taxes goes to buy something good for someone."

I would agree with THAT argument.

[Behind the Aegis]

55. Still couldn't prove your assertion.

Couldn't prove it, so you changed the goalposts. You stated: "Part of the money that pays for Israeli HealthCare comes from taxes on Middle Class Working Americans who have NO HealthCare." Then, you change it to something along these lines: "Part of the money that pays for Israeli HealthCare comes from the Israeli government, which is possible because of US military grants and loans from the taxes on Middle Class Working Americans who have NO HealthCare, and "frees up" money likely to be spent on things covered by US military grants and loans."

What, is there a sale on ad hominems and strawmen, or is it just in threads about Israel? "I realize from your avatar that you have a partisan agenda, and that will make it difficult for you to admit the truth." Seems you are the partisan, because you see the "star of David" as an indicator of someone with a partisan agenda and as someone who will find it difficult to admit truth. So does this hold true for all of those of us who might choose the star of David as an avatar, or just those who disagree with your "truth?"

[bvar22]

60. Confusion is not a logical argument.

You are not making sense.
Case closed.

[Behind the Aegis]

61. The only confusion here is yours.

And, in typical fashion, you declare yourself "winner," and "run away." You couldn't prove your own assertion, when faced with that truth, you moved the goal posts and still didn't achieve an appropriate result.

[bvar22]

66. I'm not confused.

Your attempts at obfuscation have not been effective.
My original claim stands.
I am an American Taxpayer.
Part of my tax money is given to the government of Israel (not "loaned", but as a gift).
The government of Israel provides cradle to grave Universal HealthCare to all of its citizens.

As I said above, I don't begrudge Israel this money for HealthCare.
Unlike the money for Cluster Munitions and Offensive Weaponry, at least this money does some good.


If you helped pay for my HealthCare, I would send you a "ThankYou" note.
Belligerence, entitlement, and arrogance eventually causes people to start building walls.....

[Behind the Aegis]

72. You have just changed the goalposts, nothing more. Typical tactic.

"Part of the money that pays for Israeli HealthCare comes from taxes on Middle Class Working Americans who have NO HealthCare."

Unless our money is specifically used (and it may be, which is why I asked) for the Israeli healthcare system, then your statement is not accurate.

[No Elephants]

85. In practical reality, it's very accurate.

[sendero]

51. Please,....

.... that's like the bailout CEOs who are taking huge bonuses and claiming its "not from the taxpayer's money". Of COURSE IT IS THE TAXPAYERS MONEY. Putting it in artificial buckets changes NOTHING.

Israel should pay for their own damn defense.

[Behind the Aegis]

56. It is not the same thing, but nice try.

[wellst0nev0ter]

52. Uh, Israel Did Receive Civilian Economic Aid As Well

up until this year, which was typically used to offset budget costs.

Christ, no wonder why the I/P forums are such a sewer.

[Behind the Aegis]

57. Which was used for...?

Which budgets?

Again, you have no real answer.

"Christ, no wonder why the I/P forums are such a sewer." Because there are those who question supposed facts? If it were a sewer, it would be because there are those who would rather cling to lies and propaganda as actual "truth."

[sofa king]

62. Okay, let me try.

Let's say you have ten one-dollar bills in your wallet and you have plans to spend all of it. I give you another one dollar bill, to cover the cost of a bus ride. "Don't spend my dollar on candy," I say.

You put that dollar in your wallet with the rest, go to the bus stop, and when the bus comes around you take a buck out of the wallet and pay for the ride. You get to the store, reach into your wallet, take out ten bucks, and spend all of it on candy bars.

It doesn't matter which dollar you spent on the bus ticket, and which dollars you spent on the candy. What matters is that you had eleven dollars to spend instead of ten, and you have candy and I don't. See?

[donco6]

64. Which is why the government usually builds in nonsupplanting clauses.

Except in the case of domestic aid for Israel.

[Behind the Aegis]

73. Almost, but not quite.

"Part of the money that pays for Israeli HealthCare comes from taxes on Middle Class Working Americans who have NO HealthCare."

You gave an additional dollar with a condition. That dollar was not spent on candy, but the buss, as intended. Had you just given the $10, given an extra dollar, then said "don't spend any of this on candy," you'd have a more valid comparison. What the other poster did is reach a false conclusion, at least with what "proof" he has provided. It may be that some of the money loaned/given Israel is spent on healthcare, but saying because we give them money and that is one of the places it goes is not proof in of itself.

Let's use his analogy of his brother (I'll be the brother (and I feel bad he ever had to make such a decision)):

I have a drug problem, as a result, I cannot pay for both rent and drugs. I have $100. It costs $200 for both rent and drugs. My brother gives me $100, which I use to pay rent. I still have my $100, which is spent on drugs. Just because my brother loaned me $100, it doesn't suddenly mean all my money ($200) is his "gift." Even if I used his one hundred dollar bill to pay for the drugs, the rent was still paid with $100, which is what the gift was for in the first place. Had the gift not been given, then the $100 would have gone to drugs (at least in his telling of the events). Now, were drugs and rent $200, and he gave me $100, and rent was actually only $50, and I bought a pound and half of coke (as opposed to a pound), then yes, his money was used to buy my drugs.

[wellst0nev0ter]

76. To Balance And Pad It's Budget.

Quit acting ignorant:

Starting with fiscal year 1987, Israel annually received $1.2 billion in all grant economic aid and $1.8 billion in all grant military assistance. In 1998, Israel offered to voluntarily reduce its dependence on U.S. economic aid. According to an agreement reached with the Clinton Administration and Congress, the $1.2 billion economic aid package will be reduced by $120 million each year so that it will be phased out in ten years. Half of the annual savings in economic assistance each year ($60 million) will be added to Israel's military aid package in recognition of its increased security needs. In 2005, Israel received $360 million in economic aid and $2.22 billion in military aid. In 2006, economic aid is scheduled to be reduced to $240 million and military aid will increase to $2.28 billion.

For several years, most of Israel's economic aid went to pay off old debts. In 1984, foreign aid legislation included the Cranston Amendment (named after its Senate sponsor), which said the U.S. would provide Israel with economic assistance "not less than" the amount Israel owes the United States in annual debt service payments. The Cranston Amendment was left out of the FY1999 and subsequent appropriations bills. At that time Israel received $1.2 billion in ESF and owed only $328 million in debt service so the amendment was no longer needed.

You see, it's simple. Without U.S. aid money, that's less money to spend on health care and more of their own money to pay off their borrowing.

Oh, and:

For example, all economic aid is given directly to the Israeli government rather than allocated under a specific program. Also, starting in 1982, Israel began to receive all its economic aid in a lump sum early in the fiscal year instead of in quarterly installments as is done for other countries. Israel is not required to provide an accounting of how the funds are used.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/foreign_aid.html

Because there are those who question supposed facts? If it were a sewer, it would be because there are those who would rather cling to lies and propaganda as actual "truth."

I couldn't agree with you more.

[Behind the Aegis]

77. Quit stretching the truth.

"You see, it's simple. Without U.S. aid money, that's less money to spend on health care and more of their own money to pay off their borrowing." is NOT the same as "Part of the money that pays for Israeli HealthCare comes from taxes on Middle Class Working Americans who have NO HealthCare."

[wellst0nev0ter]

79. If You Have Proof That U.S. Money Has NOT Been Allocated To Finance

Israeli's healthcare system, then out with it. You can't because it clearly has been and you are just denying the obvious.

Cheez, and this isn't even the worst thing people have accused Israel of doing, and yet you still try to tie rhetorical Gordian knots in order to somehow absolve them of the practice.

[Behind the Aegis]

81. So you're expecting me to prove the negative of the assertion?

No. The other poster made the assertion, you and others have supported it; yet, not ONE of you has been able to prove it. Instead it has been a litany of word-play, poor analogies, shifting of burden of proof, strawmen, and ad hominems. Your post is filled with nothing but straw. The only "rhetorical Gordian knots" here are the ones you and the others have provided.

[No Elephants]

84. A adistinction without a difference.

[Skwmom]

92. Have you ever heard money is fungible?

If we weren't giving them money for their defense, maybe they wouldn't have money to spend on health care.

[Behind the Aegis]

93. Yes.

But, it doesn't prove: "Part of the money that pays for Israeli HealthCare comes from taxes on Middle Class Working Americans who have NO HealthCare."

"If we weren't giving them money for their defense, maybe they wouldn't have money to spend on health care." Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't, it's a hypothetical, but that is neither here nor there because we do give them money.

[sofa king]

29. It's worth mentioning that Egypt gets a payoff, too.

In Egypt's case, the money is pretty obviously forked over in return for that nation's comparative moderation and for not attacking the Israelis (other considerations, like access to the Suez Canal, also play a role). Theoretically, part of the Israeli aid is also in return for their not attacking the Egyptians.

However, the money given to the Egyptians pales in comparison to the aid the Israelis get. One could probably argue that neither country uses the money we give in a way that truly benefits themselves or the United States, and thirty years of relative peace between the two nations has created a system of commerce between the two nations which probably generates far more income than we throw into the mix. If the lesson we were trying to teach is that peace is profitable, then that lesson should have been learned long since--but that's not a lesson easily learned by anyone in that neck of the woods.

It's another facet of the issue that should be noted and considered.

[harun]

63. I have no problem with aid reduction or ending to Egypt. Mubarak has been "President" for 28 years.

We don't want to encourage that kind of tyrany.

[aquart]

71. Sure it isn't to keep them from actively killing Palestinians?

Because I have noticed how very fond they are of them.

[The Stranger]

78. Egypt or Israel? You seem to be confused.

[cali]

32. Good. I have real hope that Obama may move toward a more

even handed policy around I/P. Israel should never have had a blank check, and hopefully, that will change.

[proud progressive]

34. i have great respect for the jewish religion and it's people here in the us and around the world

but nothing burns my ass more than the way israel treats the Palestinians, or worse still, those holier-than-thou settlers who are nothing but first-rate thugs!

[xen]

35. ABOUT TIME

Well,well,it is about time,it has been way past due for this give away to be stopped.
Now if we can just start putting Americas Interest first,revising our disastrous mid east foreign polices,and cutting back on most giveaways,and shelve this so called Freedom spreading to all the dark corners of the world,We will be on the right track

[annabanana]

42. What is the "AFP"?. .Is it like Associated Press?

(Just wondering where the report came from...)

[Syrinx]

45. AFP is the French Press Agency

[shanti]

46. yes!

*armpump* we can't afford blank checks to anyone!

[Gman]

47. All the more reason to expect Israel to hit Iran

with the approval of the Cheney cabal and regardless of what Bush wants or thinks.

[underpants]

48. Oh crap!!!

THIS is going to be interesting

[Truth Teller]

53. Not unreasonable to suspect Obama may be less of a rubber stamp

I think he has the potential to bring fairly significant chsnge to our seemingly blind approval of Israel, though he is generally supportive of them.

This is a good thing, of course.

[NoodleyAppendage]

58. How dare he! Well...expect AIPAC and Lieberman to throw a shit fit. n/t

J

[BreweryYardRat]

59. I'm not one of the knee-jerk anti-Israel crowd...

...but if the Israelis can't support themselves by now, they never will. Time they stood up on their own. If they're attacked, we'll be happy to help defend them. But given how badly our economy's crashing, we could really use that money here at home.

[oberliner]

83. Do you think we should cut all foreign aid?

Egypt gets nearly as much as Israel. Would you suggest cutting that aid as well?

One thing I'm sure we can all agree on, ending the war in Iraq would bring more money back home than anything else we could do at this point.

[Flagg]

65. Tread carefully, Barack....

Israel and its supporters can be powerful enemies

[Occulus]

67. Israel, yes...

it's supporters... not so much.

Just look upthread.

[Behind the Aegis]

90. True...and powerful allies, unlike the anti-Israeli crowd who just whine and wail.

Then again, most bigots tend not to be as powerful as they think.

[knixphan]

68. good

nobody should get blank checks.

[MUAD_DIB]

75. It is about time.

All further aid should be meeted out on a "merit only" system.

[Hardrada]

80. YESSS !!

[AnOhioan]

82. If this turns out to be true, then I applaud it.

[No Elephants]

86. This is not from the Obama team. It is pot stirring. Nothing to see here.

[robertpaulsen]

87. Sure. Right. With Biden and Emanuel leading the way.

I'm holding my breath. It's gonna happen.

:eyes:

[BanTheGOP]

88. If I posted what I REALLY think should happen...

...I would be permanently banned. Donor status and all.

Let's just say that there will be no end to the violence until the republican party-esque mindset and influence is eliminated from the Knesset.

I have 8 other steps to take, but I wish not to share them even here, EVEN THOUGH it is the ONLY way that true peace will occur. But I respect DU and its readership.

[Forkboy]

89. DUzy!

[Lil Missy]

91. It's about fucking time. n/t