Chavez Says Venezuela Economy to Face Difficult Years

[ben_meyers]

Source: Bloomberg

Dec. 7 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said his country’s economy will face difficult years ahead as the world financial crisis expands and demand for oil, Venezuela’s principal export, wanes.

Venezuela is prepared to confront the crisis and should restrict spending to strictly necessary items while saving as much as possible, Chavez said in comments on state television.(snip)

Venezuela, the biggest oil exporter in the Western Hemisphere, depends on oil for 90 percent of its export revenue and 50 percent of its government spending. Chavez has called on his government to follow an “austere” budget next year and to reduce spending.

The Venezuelan oil basket, a benchmark of prices for oil exports, dropped 12.9 percent last week to $34.49 a barrel on Dec. 5, according to the Energy and Oil Ministry which publishes the basket price each week. The price for Venezuelan oil has plunged 73 percent from a record in July.





Read more: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aSRte_EVmGU4&refer=latin_america

---

I wonder how much oil money Chavez and his cronies have stashed in overseas accounts?

The revolution won't be televised, but at least Hugo should be able to escape on one of his Russian submarines.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jun/14/russia.usa

[tritsofme]

1. This is rich.

Uncle Hugo has problems coming his way.

[EFerrari]

2. The Chenis strikes again!

:rofl:

[msongs]

3. now that he wants to be dictator for life, he has a lifetime to solve his problems :-) nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

4. So the prospects for the next great socialist empire

are intimately tied to the propensity of Americans and the world to use enormous, unsustainable amounts of the natural resource they're selling?

Chavez apologists, I hope you're doing your parts by driving Hummers.

[EFerrari]

7. You apparently have no clue about the efforts of the Venezuelan government

to diversify their economy -- against the blocking moves of the opposition AND your government who have tried to sabotage those projects at every step.

Good grief.

[JonQ]

8. 90% of their economy is based on oil

I don't think they were diversifying too much.

[EFerrari]

9. See above. n/t

[davidinalameda]

25. does the Venezuelan government pay you every week

montly?

just curious since you and a handful of others on here serve the DU Department of Propaganda for them

[w4rma]

32. Does a 'conservative' think tank pay you? (nt)

[EFerrari]

46. What is it to you, really? You aren't interested in Venezuela.

You aren't interested in Latin America. You don't know anything about either. Why would you even care?

[Dreamer Tatum]

26. So let me be sure I understand

We thwarted Venezuela's "diversification" plans while the price of oil aimed toward $150/bbl? What, did we KNOW the oil
bubble would pop, and they'd be left holding the bag, revenue-wise?

Give me a break. And please go buy an SUV and a powerboat: the Venezuelan economy is counting on you.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. Well put.

[EFerrari]

47. That doesn't even make sense.

[Dreamer Tatum]

65. You're right, it doesn't. But you claim we did just that.

Which is horseshit.

[EFerrari]

71. No. You are talking about oil, I was talking about diversity.

Good grief.

Here's a report that has been posted over and over again. It doesn't go into sabotage but focuses on what the Venezuelan government is doing. For actual sabotage, you'll have clean up your potty mouth or use The Google yourself.

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela_2007_07.pdf

[Dreamer Tatum]

72. Sabotage, shambotage

That link has many intelligent things to say about the VERY TYPICAL growing pains of a productive economy.
Inflation, overvalued currency, difficulties with international trade because of it all, and so forth. Venezuela
has a very nice asset - oil - on its side, but its ambitious social policies alongside lower oil prices create a
serious problem.

I think you Chavez worshippers could help your credibility immeasurably by being objective for once. I mean, on your
globe at home, is Venezuela depicted as a box of kittens? Do yourself a favor and read (then re-read) the money shot,
which I will quote here:


"The main challenges facing the economy are in the areas of the exchange rate and inflation. The Venezuelan currency is substantially overvalued. The government is reluctant to devalue because this would raise inflation, which is currently running at 19.3 percent and exceeds their target. Since there are exchange controls and the government is running a large current account surplus (8 percent of GDP), there is nothing that would force a devaluation in the near future (as for example, the currency collapses in Argentina, Russia, and Brazil in the late 1990s). But this poses an intermediate-run problem, since even if inflation is stabilized and begins to be reduced, current rates of inflation will continue to appreciate Venezuela's real exchange rate. This makes imports artificially cheap and non-oil exports too expensive on world markets, hurting the tradable goods sector and eventually becoming unsustainable. It also makes it extremely difficult for the economy to diversify away from its dependence on oil."


There you have it. It's not a CIA plot. It's not a guerilla army operating inside Venezuelan borders. It's Just Plain Old Boring Economics.

Since I used your own link to discredit your claim almost wholly, I expect that I've heard the last from you on this matter.

[EFerrari]

73. Plain old boring economics is only one element Venezuela is dealing with.

If you don't want to hear about Colombian paramilitaries busted inside Venezuelan borders or about USAID money funding destabilization, or about the oligarchy who until recently has been largely in control of transportation and distribution, that's your myopia.

Instead of discrediting me, you have only shown the limits of your grasp of the situation. Thanks.

[Dreamer Tatum]

75. OK, you got me. It's international economics AND the Boogeyman, in equal measure

Good grief. Ignoring the plain facts because you don't understand them is one thing. Photoshopping Chavez' picture on Tiger Beat is another.

:eyes:

[EFerrari]

80. This is from 2006 and that's before they ramped it up:

Published on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 by the Guardian / UK

US Accused of Bid to Oust Chávez with Secret Funds
· Millions of dollars given to opposition, claim critics
· Venezuelan groups' details hidden from list
by Duncan Campbell


The US government has been accused of trying to undermine the Chávez government in Venezuela by funding anonymous groups via its main international aid agency.

Millions of dollars have been provided in a "pro-democracy programme" that Chávez supporters claim is a covert attempt to bankroll an opposition to defeat the government.

The money is being provided by the US Agency for International Development (USAID) through its Office of Transition Initiatives. The row follows the recent announcement that the US had made $80m (£42m) available for groups seeking to bring about change in Cuba, whose leader, Fidel Castro, is a close ally of Mr Chávez.

Information about the grants has been obtained following a Freedom of Information request by the Associated Press. USAID released copies of 132 contracts but obscured the names and other identifying details of nearly half the organisations.

The Office of Transition Initiatives, which also works in such "priority countries" as Iraq, Afghanistan, Bolivia and Haiti, has overseen more than $26m in grants to groups in Venezuela since 2002.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0830-08.htm

And that's just Venezuela. If you prefer to continue funding the Boogeyman, that's cool. I myself don't.

[Dreamer Tatum]

81. My response may surprise you, but here goes

Can you name me a country of any wealth or substance that DIDN'T have any sort of resistance movement?
And...horror of horrors...MONEY to the OPPOSITION? Oh, wait...nevermind, our own President-Elect benefitted
from that same "money to the opposition." Nevermind.

Chavez can welcome Russian warships to his shores, but he's too fragile to countenance one cent of "money to the
opposition" to enter his borders? Never has such a delicate kitten had such an iron fist!

Color me wholly and totally unimpressed. It's already been pointed out that Venezuela's economic problems
have mostly to do with controlling its inflation. Evidently, their policymakers were paying attention to
the rest of Latin America in the 1990's. THIS IS TO THEIR CREDIT.

[EFerrari]

82. No, it doesn't surprise me in the least. n/t

[wuushew]

5. What is the point of this post?

The global economic recession is hurting ALL oil exporting countries. The conditions which are causing a lessened price of oil are also responsible for massive pain in our own economy.

Is the spite worth it? :shrug:

[EFerrari]

6. Yes, some posters here enjoy that the people of Venezuela will suffer.

Right?

:shrug:

[ben_meyers]

11. Maybe if they were free of Chavez

they would have a chance to improve things. Or is he some kind of God?

[wuushew]

13. The Bolivarian approach to poverty reduction is interesting and fresh

Is Panama a success in terms of its wealth distribution? Are Cuba's neighbors like Haiti, the Dominican Republic and Jamaica clearly better governments and economies relative to Cuba? Not really.

[EFerrari]

16. Their economy has grown and their poverty rate has gone down

and they have become more diversified every year of his government.

What measuring stick are you using and why do you hate democracy?

[Peace Patriot]

20. Ahem, like with the rightwing governments prior to Chavez, who were giving away

90% of Venezuela's oil revenues to the multinationals, and enriching themselves, and only themselves, with the rest? Who utterly neglected their own country, and the poor majority, and let Venezuela become entirely dependent on imported food, and other imports, and didn't even think to manufacture machine parts for the oil industry locally, creating local jobs for the poor and lower middle class? Who failed to provide education and medical care for the poor?

"...a chance to improve things." You mention God. No, just a good, responsible, democratically elected, leftist government that reverses these and other bad policies, to the great benefit of Venezuela. That's all that was needed. Oh, maybe a bit of God inspiration, like "love they neighbor."

What is this with Chavez dissers, that if we don't agree that Chavez is a "dictator," and "corrupt," and a "terrorist," and "thug," etc., etc.--since there is absolutely no evidence to support these epithets--then we must believe that Chavez is a saint, or God. This is just such shallow and stupid thinking. Chavez can be somewhere in the middle, and is. He's a good leader, on almost any criterion you could mention. He has his flaws. So does his government and his political coalition. Calling him a good leader, on almost every criterion, is not calling him a saint or God. It's just recognizing his achievements, and the achievements of his government and of the people of Venezuela. They elected him. He would have no power without them. They even took courageous action to keep him as president, and to preserve their Constitution, when the fascists and the Bushwhacks tried to topple their lawful and elected government by violence. Chavez is their achievement, as much as he is his own achievement. And I applaud both. It can't have been easy turning around a nearly ruined country, such as Venezuela was, when Chavez was first elected--especially with the unrelenting hostility of the Bush Junta and associated corporate cronies. He was a pioneer in leftist leadership in South America. Now he has many allies. That is good. I'm a leftist. I like people having jobs and eating regularly, and having access to education, and exercising their rights, and not being tortured and shot and dropped out of airplanes by rightwing thugs, at the behest of U.S. corpo/fascists. You say "a chance to improve things." Most Venezuelans have never had the chances to improve things that they have now. And, from everything I have read, they are actively participating in improving their country and their own lives. Citizen participation has never been greater. Literacy and education levels have never been greater. Improving communities, and engaging in various enterprises--small businesses, co-ops, unions, political activity--has never been greater.

And it certainly has not been easy for the Venezuelans to defend their Constitution and their rightful government, and to learn more socially responsible and more honest and transparent ways of doing things. Prior to Chavez, there was no proper tax collection in Venezuela, and many tax scofflaws. The Chavez government instituted good government practices, and fair and consistent taxation. On the matter of elections, they have far surpassed us in conducting fair, honest and transparent elections. International election monitors visit Venezuela to see how it's done. These are great achievements. We could learn from them. Why do you want DUers to be stupid about them, and yield to rightwing propaganda about Chavez? To counter that propaganda with facts, research and reason is not to say that Chavez is God. It is just to state reality. Chavez is very popular in Venezuela and South America, and there are very good reasons for that popularity. I've named some of them. What are your reasons for taking the opposite view?

[Tempest]

83. Free of Chavez?

The people voted him into office TWICE with resounding margins of victory.

And before you spout the "rigged elections" bullshit, the elections were overseen by international groups who all declared them free and fair.

[pork medley]

19. The peasants, landless laborers, and slum dwellers of Venezuela must be taught a lesson...

[ben_meyers]

21. What? There aren't any of those types in the

workers paradise.

[pork medley]

24. I wonder if you would have celebrated every setback faced by Egypt under Nasser...

or Iran under Mossadeq...

or Chile under Allende...

or Guatemala under Arbenz...

or Indonesia under Sukarno...

I have reason to believe that you would have, and it would be as dishonest and reactionary then as it is now, against Chavez, who is not all that different from those secular nationalists that came to power in the 20th century

[Psephos]

31. Criticism, even the sardonic kind, serves an important function

Tell me you aren't suggesting that some leaders in this world should be exempted from criticism. Because if you are, then you bear responsibility for the inevitable corruption that censorship of dissent brings.

[pork medley]

35. The ghoulish fixation on the imminent collapse of Venezuela...

is not "sardonic criticism," is not in the least sympathetic - it smacks of condescension toward third world progressive politics and barely veils a desire to impose collective punishment on the peoples of the world who disagree that history reached a dead end ~20 years ago in liberal capitalism.

[Psephos]

37. I'm sure it seems that way because you are a believer in Chavez' way

But I cannot accept that those who criticize Chavez here want collective punishment visited upon the Venezuelan people.

Note that I'm not saying that being a Chavez believer is good or bad, just saying it tends to make many believers lash out at any criticism of Chavez.

The act of criticizing Chavez is legitimate, just as criticizing any politician is legitimate. Some or even most of the criticisms may be invalid. That's beside the point.

The alternative - where criticisms must pass some sort of sympathetic litmus test - is the Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea. No thanks.

I notice that Chavez has never had a problem criticizing and ridiculing those he disdains, and usually without showing a hint of sympathetic feeling. Fair enough.

[pork medley]

42. Whatever

[EFerrari]

49. Criticism is one thing. Read this thread and see if most 12 year olds that you know

couldn't do a better job.

The anti-Chavez stuff here is rarely ever thoughtful criticism. It's just junk.

There are plenty of areas where the Chavez government could do better. Crime, for example. Or, developing its younger leaders more openly for another. You rarely if ever see anyone really drilling down to issues here. It's Chavez is fat, he's a dictator, he has a Swiss bank account, he's a piece of shit, et cetera, ad nauseum. That isn't criticism. That's just verbal diarrhea of the kind you usually have to visit Free Republic to enjoy.

/oops

[Billy Burnett]

63. You forgot a MAJOR point, made often by another DUer.

Chavez is a friend of CASTRO.

Oh noes.!!11!!

[EFerrari]

70. That's right. Castro, red, anti-American. That's the bingo card.

The other night, CNN did a segment on how males key to the color red.

No wonder these people are so upset all the time.



lol

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

87. No it's because he's fat.

[Psephos]

66. A thoughtful response...

...which will automatically raise my awareness and consideration of other things you have to say. :hi:

Still, I doubt that Marquis of Queensbury decorum will be coming to DU anytime soon. Virtually any thread on a contentious subject here shows the same mobs of 12-year-olds spouting personal insults just as you described. Same on Kos. Same on Freeperville. Same on most political sites. It's just the nature of the beast.

No one (including me) likes to hear criticism of someone or something we have emotional resonance with. The best reaction remains a thoughtful reply...or none at all, for those beyond the pale.

[EFerrari]

68. This is a very interesting moment in Latin America.

While the neocons here were off blowing up the Middle East, democratic governments in Latin America have flourished as a result of "neglect" from State and also, from the Pentagon. I honestly can't think of another historical moment when there were so many governments doing so well with respect to developing democratic institutions.

Stir in, about a year ago, the neocons / BushCo restarted the kind of dirty wars that Reagan waged in the region, particularly in Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia, Paraguay, Nicaragua. They've never stopped attacking Cuba, as far as I can tell anyway.

Then stir in the economic downturn. What will that mean? The governments Bush froze out have been busy building an economic infrastructure but whether that will help them surf this global situation is at issue.

There's so much more to attend to besides schoolyard insults. :)

[ronnie624]

55. Criticism? Bullshit.

Ad hominem, pure and simple:

- "dictator for life"
- "Uncle Hugo"
- "Chavez apologists"
- "3rd world dictator"
- "fat boy"
- "piece of crap"

and the OP, without a shred of evidence, accuses Chavez of embezzling money.

There's your "criticism". Wingnuts can be some viciously dishonest MFers.

[Psephos]

62. The unintentional irony of your post is sublime n/t

[ronnie624]

64. Character assassination is not "criticism". n/t

[Zorro]

10. Wonder what will happen to his promised free cars giveaway program

Didn't Chavez promise -- right before the election -- to start a program to give away new cars next year?

[gmpierce]

23. He might be able to keep that promise

With all of the cars stacked up in the United States that can't be sold, he might be able to find some real deals. A hummer in every garage.

[Wilms]

12. Thanks for posting the story. Your comments, on the other hand, aren't well referenced.

Someone once said, "We should be skeptical of the government, but you shouldn't just make crap up."

Consider it.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

30. Feel free to point out what the OP made up, otherwise take your own advice.

[Wilms]

33. I did say the OP's comments, Dave.

That's where it suggested, without a reference, "...Chavez and his cronies have stashed in overseas accounts".

And so my comment.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

34. That was a question, hence the question mark, not a comment, Willy.

[Wilms]

38. The OP wasn't questioning anything but the "amount". I'm calling him on it. n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

39. That's pretty funny.

So let's get this straight you don't think Chavez has any money in foreign accounts?

David

[Wilms]

40. What is straight is that you and the OP are suggesting that without providing cite.

That's the point I first made a while ago.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

41. I think it's stupid and naive to think a 3rd world dictator doesn't have a swiss bank account.

The OP merely asked a question.

David

[Mika]

44. Got a link?

I won't hold my breath.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

45. A link to my opinion....sure.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3634972&mesg_id=3635551

There you go.

David

[Billy Burnett]

51. Like many anti Chavez anti Castro DUers,

On a short loop.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

54. They asked for my opinion I gave it.

[Zorro]

52. If you're looking for reports of corruption

Here you go.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/06/chavez-family-venezuela

[EFerrari]

56. And the best they can produce is that everyone thinks Chavez is honest.

"Everybody thinks Chávez is honest but they can't say that about his government. And I don't think his family has behaved well," said Larry Birns, head of the Council on Hemispheric Affairs, a Washington-based think-tank. "Corruption could have a chilling impact on Chávez's prospects if there isn't an all-out war against it."

[Billy Burnett]

60. Oh, the horrors!

The president's mother Elena Frias, 73, headed a children's charity and overhauled a dowdy image with facelifts, designer clothes and a poodle named Coqui. Her cosmetic surgeon caused a rumpus when he complained about being blacklisted from a golf club because of his association with the family.

The poodle did it for me. I've had it with Chavez!

Blacklisting her Dr from a golf club is really taking-it-to-them in the noble fight against the socialist revolution

:sarcasm:

[High Plains]

76. "Third world dictator?" Thanks for clarifying what your opinion is worth.

Go back to watching Fox News and studying Reagan/Bush for talking points.

[High Plains]

79. I think it's stupid and naive to think a fire medic isn't a dope-stealing junkie.

So it must be so. Cuz I said so. There.

On edit: Not that I have any evidence of that, but why should that stop me from slinging shit?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

88. I wouldn't insult the fire medics that died on 9/11 like that but everyone has an opinion and...

if that's yours, oh well. I still think you would be hard pressed to find a leader of a developing country that didn't have foreign investments and foreign accounts. It would be only prudent considering the possible instability of their governments finances.

David

[Peace Patriot]

14. Obama agrees with Chavez, and said much the same thing...

Source: AP

'WASHINGTON – President-elect Barack Obama said the economy seems destined to get worse before it gets better and he pledged a recovery plan 'that is equal to the task ahead.'

"Obama also said in an interview broadcast Sunday that the survival of the domestic car-making capacity is important, yet any bailout must be 'conditioned on an auto industry emerging at the end of the process that actually works.'"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081207/ap_on_el_pr/obama
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3634636

-----------

But the Chavez government faces this crisis with $140 billion in international cash reserves--due to wise and courageous government policy over the last ten years--rather than the ten trillion dollar deficit facing Obama, due to the unregulated, unaccountable, massive looting of federal coffers and everything in sight, under the Bush Junta.

With these cash reserves and the financial power that it gives Venezuela, the financial analyst at IncaKola said that Venezuela could weather $60-$70/gal in gas prices for a year without touching the reserves. So, with gas at half that, currently, they may have to spend some reserves, but they have such big cash reserves, that they have a lot of options as to financing and can do it on the best terms possible.

The usual suspects upthread--making accusations of corruption against Chavez for which there is no--zero, zilch--evidence (and they provide none)--seem to lust after the thought of Venezuelan babies with no food, children with no schools, pregnant women, the elderly, the sick with no medical care, and low cost housing, roads, bridges, local manufacturing plans, land reform and other forward-looking development projects frozen or slowed down.

Like the Bushwhacks, they equate Chavez with Venezuela, and hate Chavez, so they hate Venezuelans, apparently, especially the poor who elected Chavez, and want them to suffer, I guess. They want the government to fail? I can make no sense of their remarks, really. They just seem vicious and stupid.

The people of Venezuela continue to give Chavez a 60+% approval rating. They just handed Chavez's socialist party a victory in 17 out of 23 governorships, in the recent by-elections, and Chavez gained over a million more votes among Venezuelans than he got last year, on the Constitutional referendum (which he lost by a hair--50.7% to 49.3%--probably because it included equal rights for women and gays, and Venezuela has particularly rightwing Catholic clergy), while the opposition lost 300,000 votes (compared to that last plebiscite). Also, Venezuelans registered the highest satisfaction in their political/economic system, of any country in Latin America, in a recent poll. Are these Chavez dissers saying that the voters of Venezuela are stupid--in their election and re-election of Chavez, and their high approval of him and his government? They just keep re-electing this corrupt dictator because...why?

The Chavez dissers keep predicting Chavez's demise--yet he has survived every effort of the rightwing opposition in Venezuela and the Bush Junta to topple him, including an outright violent military coup and assassination attempt, a crippling oil professionals' strike, a US/Bushwhack-funded recall election, millions of dollars in USAID propaganda money poured into rightwing Venezuelan groups, and, most recently, ridiculous charges of "terrorism" against this most peaceful of South American leaders. ("Chavez is the great peacemaker." --Lula da Silva, president of Brazil.)

I think he and Venezuela will weather this Financial 9/11 that the Bushwhacks have inflicted upon the world precisely because Chavez is doing his job, as president of Venezuela, and doing it honestly and well. Everything Chavez has done has been aimed at Venezuela's welfare and the welfare of his region. Can you just imagine what position Venezuela would be in, if the rightwing opposition had been in charge these last ten years? Venezuela would be penniless, because they would have given away 90% of the country's oil revenues to the multinationals, and would have used the rest to enrich themselves, and would have totally neglected their own country and needed development, and their own people, the poor majority, as they were doing before Chavez was elected. Chavez renegotiated the oil contracts to give Venezuela a fairer share--60/40--of its own oil resource profits, and has been spending the money on everything that Venezuela needed that the rightwing, in their selfishness and greed and laziness, did not provide, and has furthermore saved $140 billion in rainy day money for his country. That is highly responsible, good management.

Further, can you imagine how Argentina would be fairing, or Bolivia, if Venezuela hadn't helped them get out from under ruinous World Bank/IMF debt (incurred by previous rightwing regimes), and helped put their economies on a steadier footing? The region has greatly benefited from these Venezuelan policies, and is in much better shape to weather this Bushwhack-induced storm than they would have been a half a decade ago--when both were roiled with financial and civil instability, and were getting totally looted by foreign financiers through the World Bank/IMF.

Wishing Chavez were dead or gone--as the Chavez dissers seem to wish--is wishing away all the beneficial programs that he and his government have instituted. Why they hate Chavez I do not know. But they do not seem to grasp that they are simultaneously hating and dissing, and wishing ill, to the people of Venezuela, and to the people of the region.

[unkachuck]

27. Kick...and thanks Peace Patriot for bringing sanity to this thread....n/t

[slipslidingaway]

69. A kick for your comments. n/t

[Sex Pistol]

15. Obviously, no one wants to see Venezuelans suffer,

but it would be nice to see them place the blame for their plight on fat boy. :)

[bitchkitty]

17. Fat boy, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! You're killing me!

I'm dyin' here! You're such a card. Such talent. You should write for Hannity.

Obviously, you DO want to see Venezuelans suffer.

[Arctic Dave]

18. So the global economic clusterf**k is Chavez's fault?

I would have thought it to be the fault of the neocon's with their eternal greed.

[bemildred]

22. Most all of us are facing "difficult years".

But I give credit to Chavez for being honest about it, and not saying "Fuck you Jack, I've got mine."

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

28. You reap what you sow you piece of crap.

[EFerrari]

48. Most American families will, too. Are we also pieces of crap, Dave?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

53. A little logic might be nice.

Hugos anti-democratic abuses have been well documented. The American families I know aren't pieces of crap. I can't speak to your family.

David

[EFerrari]

57. Name them and produce the documentation.

You can't because there haven't been any. But that won't prevent you from regurgitating right wing crap.

The Op is about the Venezuelan economy. Obama issued nearly the very same statement today. That's what leaders do, Dave.

And by your logic, Obama is also reaping what he's sown.

Good grief.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

58. How is that possible?

Obama's not the leader of anything yet.

David

[EFerrari]

59. And Chavez didn't tank the global economy.

But both men are "reaping" according to what you think passes for logic.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

67. When did I say he did?

[High Plains]

78. "You reap what you sow you piece of crap." How's that?

Thanks for that thoughtful analysis.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

86. That's not me saying he sunk the global economy.

You're welcome.

[AlphaCentauri]

36. Seems like destroying our own economy is our best weapon

against unfriendly countries
time to celebrate another victory

:sarcasm:

[Mika]

43. It's the other way around.

Chavez' greed took the global economy down. Betcha he's moved his wealth to Dubai.

:sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

50. I told you! The Chenis strikes back!

lol

[bitchkitty]

74. CHENIS!!!

[pork medley]

61. 10 Rules for Understanding Civil Society Imperialism

Rule #1. All governments are bad, especially those that pursue traditional leftist agendas of placing control of a country’s resources and productive property in the hands of its public, its government, or its domestic business class. The leaders of these governments deceptively employ socialist, anti-colonial and anti-imperialist rhetoric to win and then to hang on to power. They enjoy enormous privileges secured and defended by corruption and abuse of authority. Governments, by nature, are corrupt, authoritarian and thoroughly rotten, particularly those that call themselves leftist and anti-imperialist. There has never been a truly leftist, anti-colonial or anti-imperialist government, and can never be one. All revolutions are betrayals and no one should expect that anything good can ever come from left and anti-imperialist forces taking power. The only good revolution is the one that has never happened, or the ones that have been financed by wealthy individuals and the US government.

Rule #2. Civil society is the main wellspring of hope. Non-governmental organizations funded by the US Congress’s National Endowment for Democracy, the US State Department’s USAID, Britain’s Westminster Foundation for Democracy, Germany’s Friedrich Ebert Foundation, and other Western “democracy promotion” agencies, are independent organizations that are working to build a better world. Leftists should look to these groups to understand what’s going on in countries led by nominally anti-colonial, anti-imperialist and socialist governments.

Rule #3. Decentralized, participatory democracy is good. It is the absolute good.

Rule #4. Process is more important than outcome.

Rule #5. Governments that call themselves anti-imperialist or socialist or both are neither of these things and are as deplorable as imperialists and neo-liberals. Civil society, though drawing its funding from wealthy individuals, corporations, capitalist foundations and imperialist governments, is the main wellspring of hope.

Rule #6. When writing about governments that pursue traditional leftist agendas, it is important to follow State Department narratives. This is equivalent to doing what the New York Times, CNN and other major media did when they amplified Washington’s lies about Iraq’s non-existent weapons of mass destruction – an inconvenient reality, but skip over it. Charges made against leftist, anti-colonial and anti-imperialist governments of corruption, human rights abuses, and betrayal will resonate with a left population primed for cynicism. Accordingly, it takes little effort to make the charges stick. Don’t bother to cite evidence. You don’t need to. Tap into what everyone knows is true, because everyone says it’s true, because the media say it’s true, because the State Department and White House say it’s true. Who will ask for evidence? Insist that the other side present evidence. If you don’t like the evidence, say it’s not from a credible source.

Rule #7. Never shy away from basing your argument on appeal to authority. If you live close to the country civil society is to promote democracy in, or have visited it, claim authority based on geography. This, however, might backfire. Opponents can reply: “If geography is so important, I’ll accept as a higher authority the analysis of the leaders of the government you denounce, since they are long-time residents of their country, and not merely tourists and residents of a neighboring country.”

Rule #8. Make definitive statements. For example, assert with certitude that Bob Helvey has never been to Venezuela to train civil society to bring down the Chavez government. When you’re shown evidence that Bob Helvey has indeed been to Venezuela, say “I only found about it last week.” Never let ignorance get in the way of self-appointed authority.

Rule #9. Defend civil society’s receiving its funding from wealthy individuals, corporations, capitalist foundations and imperialist governments by saying, “A people’s revolution cannot happen by generous funding alone.” This sounds compelling. Of course, if this were true, we could also say, “Acceptance of a ruling class ideology cannot happen by the ruling class virtually monopolizing the media and schools” or “George Bush won his first run at the presidency through a groundswell of popular support that had little to do with his connections to wealthy supporters and the king’s ransom spent on his campaign.”

Rule #10. Some say civil society should not take money from wealthy individuals, corporations, capitalist foundations and imperialist governments. Others say the reality that wealthy individuals, corporations, capitalist foundations and imperialist governments shower many civil society groups with money tells you everything you need to know about these groups. These people are not helpful.

[High Plains]

77. The ghost of Joe McCarthy has possessed half the posters on this thread!

I really don't understand why these people loathe Chavez so much. I suspect it's residual anti-communism clothed as concern for the poor Venezuelan people. Half the shit on this thread could have been posted on Free Republic.

Chavez is not god and is open to criticism. But what we see here is more akin to monkeys tossing turds than any sort of thoughtful critique.

[Dreamer Tatum]

84. Completely disagree

To several here, Chavez IS God, and is NOT subject to criticism. But that (humorously) misses the point altogether.

The Chavezistas look at ANY data point that casts Venezuela as anything other than Nirvana and attempt to hang it on
"opposition." The subtext is that there shouldn't be any opposition, and that Venezuela would have no problems if
not for those damn people who question the Chavez regime.

To which I call bullshit. The cold, hard, clinical facts are that Venezuela has a growing economy that is spurred
by enormous government spending. Falling oil prices, domestic inflation, and overvalued currency have put Venezuela
in something of a Chinese finger trap. They can't really diversify if their other exports look too expensive,
and in any case the government has made non-diversification a de facto policy by controlling a huge chunk of
domestic demand (if I ran an oil-exporting country and a barrel of my product was $150 as recently as a few months
ago, sure I'd diversify: I'd find more diverse ways to SELL OIL.). Is it BAD that Chavez wants to feed the poor? No.
Are there implications for government sponsoring a substantial chunk of aggregate demand? Probably.

Chavez worshippers never, ever cast their Nirvana's problems
in language that intelligent people respect. They want Venezuela to be viewed as a major social, political, and economic
world player, a contrast to these unthinkably horrible United States, but as soon as anything bad happens, it's because of
geopolitical skullduggery. Yeah, right.

The irony of the Chavez worshipper is that they themselves sell their hero short by reverting to silly, conspiracy-laden, propaganda-rich jeremiads against anyone who DARES to connect dots using the same reasoning and logic they'd use to discuss ANY country's economic situation. In short, they're a joke, and I will point that out whenever necessary.

[High Plains]

85. I suspect much of the bile aimed at Chavez is really provoked...

...by the Chavez supporters here. But it's pretty dumb to rip Chavez because his supporters get under your skin.

I watch the Bolivarian Revolution with hope and interest. But as I said above, Chavez is not above criticism. You just don't see much on this board that even rises to that level. You just get name calling and turd tossing.

Actually, it would be invigorating to have a serious discussion of what Chavez is doing, instead of a bunch of name calling that suggests the posters just hate lefties. A guy can dream, I suppose.

[devilgrrl]

89. He satan! He the boogie man!!!!!

:eyes:

[Judi Lynn]

90. Here's an article you no doubt would benefit from reading.

Posted by excellent DU poster, Joanne98:

December 4, 2008 (venezuelanalysis.com)-- Venezuelans are among the Latin Americans most satisfied with their lives, according to a Gallup poll commissioned by the Inter American Development Bank (IDB). Venezuelans' satisfaction with their system of public education, health care, work situation, and housing also rank well above average for the region.

The findings are based on data from the Gallup World Poll, which continually surveys people in 140 countries, together with additional questions commissioned by the IDB on social themes in Latin America and the Caribbean.

With ten being the most satisfied with life and zero the lowest rating possible, Venezuelans’ happiness averaged 6.5, the fourth highest score of a Latin American country. Compared to average scores around the globe, Venezuelans ranked just below the industrialized nations of North America and Western Europe, but higher than all other regions. Although the study showed a tendency for a negative correlation between economic growth and happiness, Venezuela was an exception, as the happiness of its citizens remained high despite experiencing robust economic growth in the last four years.

“Governments that focus their policies exclusively on growth are bound to lose support in the long run if they do not respond to the higher expectations that accompany growth in areas ranging from education and health to income distribution,” explained Eduardo Lora, IDB’s chief economist and coordinator of the study. “The difficulty lies in responding to these demands without killing growth.”

Continued>>>
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/4016

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x407515