Man who lost family when jet hit house: I don't blame pilot

[Uzybone]

Source: CNN.com

A Korean immigrant who lost his wife, two children and mother-in-law when a Marine Corps jet slammed into the family's house said Tuesday he did not blame the pilot, who ejected and survived.


Dong Yun Yoon addresses reporters Tuesday, a day after a jet crashed into his home and killed four of his relatives.
1 of 3more photos »

"Please pray for him not to suffer from this accident," a distraught Dong Yun Yoon told reporters gathered near the site of Monday's crash of an F/A-18D jet in San Diego's University City community.

"He is one of our treasures for the country," Yoon said in accented English punctuated by long pauses while he tried to maintain his composure.


Fighting back tears, he said of his daughters: "I cannot believe that they are not here right now."

"I know there are many people who have experienced more terrible things," Yoon said. "But, please, tell me how to do it. I don't know what to do."

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/09/military.jet.crash/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

---

This guy is a much better man than me. I'm not sure how he could keep it together. Such a sad story.

[file83]

1. OMFG - that is so sad. He lost everyone.

I'm sure the military will be interested in what the hell happened - whether it was pilot error or mechanical failure.

But for this man to forgive the pilot so quickly shows the depth of compassion this father has. He seems genuinely concerned for the pilot not to feel guilt about it, despite his own horrific tragedy.

[texastoast]

70. Oh, it will be pilot error

That's how the military will do it. Can't have the military industrial complex taking responsibility for poor workmanship.

[bdab1973]

78. I'm glad you know so much...

I was being sarcastic, by the way. I've investigated military aviation incidents on a few occasions, and as a safety-trained instructor pilot, I've read quite a few safety reports from accidents over the years. The military has no problem citing material failure when it's the cause. The last incident I investigated cited poor quality control management.

[texastoast]

151. Go watch Afterburn

And I'll talk to you afterwards. Having been involved in several military industrial contractor product liability suits, I will beg to differ.

[bdab1973]

155. I suppose actually being a military aviation accident investigator doesn't mean anything...

There are always incidents of wrongdoing, no matter where you go. But by and large, the US military does a very good job investigating aviation mishaps. I am a trained accident investigator, the process works for the most part. The process is in place to do it thoroughly and to do it right. Those who break the regs and laws and hide things do so at their own risk, as it is elsewhere in society.

[texastoast]

162. Military investigators get silenced and their work does not often go into reports

Not saying that this has happened to you, but the actual investigation will reveal what brass wants it to reveal, and certainly any "sensitive" information will be redacted. Hell, if it is too big a case, the freaking Justice Department will come in and shut you down when all you are trying to do is make the manufacturers produce a product that will protect and serve our military. Too too many times, good pilots, captains have been blamed, when it was not their fault at all. Too too many times, brass is in cohoots with the manufacturers and things just get silenced.

[bdab1973]

163. I have been an investigator for 6 years...

and never run across what you're talking about. I have many friends and coworkers who are also trained accident investigators, I have worked on investigations, and been the actual IO (investigating officer). Perhaps there have been isolated cases of investigations being wrongfully conducted, but I do not know of any recent ones in my memory, and I've been around quite a number of them in the past 6 years, either through direct involvement or knowing good friends who were involved.

[texastoast]

166. I wish I could say the same

There were many F-16 crashes attributed to pilot error. Many of them were wrongly so attributed. Literally hundreds of F-16s have fallen out of the sky. For one case I worked on, it was wire chafing in the right strake due to product design that caused the crash, but by the military brass, it was "pilot error." Long screws and electrical wires don't play well at mach 2, even for a top gun pilot.

There are other cases when brass knew the product wouldn't work when went out to the military. Brass didn't tell the folks who were depending on the products to work.

The military has its dark side and always will. Usually, it's dark brass. I can't stand the fact that these folks knowingly put our troops in danger without even a heads up.

Perhaps you are right. It is isolated. I've quit working on the cases since SCOTUS made it a point to take away not only product design liability for the military industrialists, but also manufacturing liability. Makes me sick.

[cactusfractal]

87. Not necessarily.

As a Marine who once maintained rotary-wing aircraft, I'm kinda pissed that you'd say such a thing. Marines take care of their own, sure, but they also have tight relations with the extended community almost everywhere. And on the approach path 3km out is DEFINITELY part of the community.

That pilot surely did every damn thing he could. Witnesses say the plane came down quietly. That no doubt means he lost power. It happens. Not often, but that's why they call it an ACCIDENT.

The pilot probably feels like shit that he wasn't able to at least get that bird over the fence. And the F/A-18 has a good safety record.

You can start hating on the Corps IF there's a coverup. Until then, why not do the smart thing and reserve judgment?

Here's a guy who lost everything and a pilot who's going to have the yips next time he's on approach, especially over residential areas.

Merry Christmas, Marine. Guilt and some bonus hate for ya before your plane's even fully scraped up.

[texastoast]

152. Go watch Afterburn

And I'll talk to you afterwards. Having been involved in several military industrial contractor product liability suits on behalf of our wonderful, willing military, I will beg to differ. You can also google the USS STARK and see what you come up with, if it is still posted. Ask that captain if I'm a hater.

Those corporate guys do not give a flying fuck about anything but profits.

[The Stranger]

73. He seems to revere the military -- would he have felt the same way about a civilian?

[Lorien]

2. More terrible things? It's hard to imagine much that is more terrible

than that. I doubt that I could even stand upright if I were to suffer a loss like that. Hell, it would be tough to even keep breathing.

:cry:

[file83]

5. It would be surreal.

[petronius]

58. That quote really got to me - I have no idea how this guy is handling this...

:(

[EFerrari]

3. The poor man is probably still in shock.

:(

[Jennicut]

4. Terribly sad. Losing one's wife and children is too much for one person to have to deal with

I feel for him and he has such forgiveness so quickly. He is more understanding then I think I could be.

[Mind_your_head]

6. I would hope that the pilot has the good grace to go speak personally

with Dong Yun Yoon and tell him what happened (the pilot's side of the story). Dong Yun Yoon deserves to hear that personally from the pilot. It would probably be a small step towards 'healing' for both. It is/was tragic and life-changing for both of these survivors.

[14thColony]

20. The military most likely would not permit contact until after the mishap investigation is over

Even then it would be up to the wing and/or base commander moreso than the desires of the individual pilot. JAGs would also get involved. It might not happen even if the pilot asked to do it.

[bdab1973]

21. Somewhat...

It's probably true that during the legal investigation (there are usually two investigations...one is the safety investigation, the other is the legal investigation), he probably wouldn't want to say much to the guy.

But following those investigations, it could quite likely happen. I could see the military getting involved if it was done in a public venue, since he represents the military.

[hamsterjill]

57. Hope that, too

I'm sure the pilot is tormented over what happened. It is honorable of this father to speak publicly about forgiveness. It would be a positive thing for the father and the pilot to meet and grieve together.

I could not live through something like this happening to my family.

[my2sense]

7. Heartbreaking tragedy n/t

[qanda]

8. My recommend represents a small prayer for this man

May God comfort his heart and rest the souls of his loved ones in eternal peace. Simply heartbreaking...

[Window]

38. Amen. I second that.

[superconnected]

9. What a beautiful man. I hope he gets through this gently. I can't imagine how much

this tragedy must be affecting him. Hopefully he has a really good social network aroun d him so that he is not alone.

[BigBearJohn]

10. The government should be doing everything in its power to help this poor man.

[LostinVA]

26. Agreed -- and, I think HE is one of our national treasures

[AngryAmish]

98. amen

[fortyfeetunder]

11. Horrific, just plain horrific

That man lost his family, his future, little baby daughters he will never get to see grow up. A very sad story.

USG owes this guy big time....

[sandnsea]

12. I hope there are people to help him

I do not know how people recover from something like that. It's almost too scary to even read or think about.

[ClayZ]

13. .

:cry:

[OswegoAtheist]

14. I couldn't imagine.

I'm sorry for his loss on one hand, and very, very awestruck by his ability to forgive on the other.

Oswego "..." Atheist

[truthisfreedom]

15. I can't read his words without tearing up.

He needs support.

[Nikki Stone1]

16. Dupe: Thread from GD

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4611905#4620849

[truthisfreedom]

22. So?

[aquart]

17. I hope he is well-connected to his church and his community.

This is one of the moments when it really counts.

But I KNOW the people on his block, his street, will be looking out for him. I know that. I know how the neighbors we didn't know looked after my family when my stepdad died, an ordinary snow shoveling death. And this is so much worse.

The customs and traditions we have are all geared to getting us thru these horrors. Having rituals to perform when you can barely remember where your feet are, or your head...so vital, so mechanical, keeping us moving and doing when we don't know what else to do...until we can begin to think again.

Meantime, the Marines owe this man a house.

[zanne]

25. I'm hoping that, too.

I'm not a religious person, but when somebody has a congregation to turn to in cases like this, it can only help. I hope that there are many other Korean immigrants who will be willing to give him a helping hand, too.

[Kind of Blue]

67. Yeah, his pastor at the Korean Methodist Church spoke

well of the family a day after the tragedy. The evacuated neighbors on the scene at the time, said the family just moved in to this bigger house because of the growing family, including a newborn. So I know the church and the community are involved, and I'm sure many of us here will do what we can, as well.

[NoQuarter]

68. The Korean Methodist Church he attends is directly behind my house.

It is a close-knit congregation.

[Kalyan]

18. no words

Lost for words to console the "brave" man. My prayers are with him and the departed souls

[bdab1973]

19. Hat's off to him...

I can't imagine losing my family, it would be terrible. And the composure he is displaying is incredible. What's sad is he has the ability to see this for what it is...a terrible accident, and not make it worse than it already is...while people that didn't lose a thing are calling for the pilot's head.

If I were the pilot I would definitely want to meet him and make him part of my family.

I am quite certain the USMC will go out of its way to help this man.

[Roland99]

23. Not a very Merry Christmas. What a horrible tragedy.

[Mudoria]

24. I admire his courage and his ability to forgive

I woud hope those of us who believe will pray and those who don't believe will think good thoughts for this man and also for the pilot, who I'm sure by now is carrying a ton of guilt.

[Lena inRI]

27. Dear Mr.Yun Yoon. . .

. . .hopefully, if not you, someone you know will read and pass this along to you:

BE AT PEACE

Do not look forward in fear to the changes of life,
rather look to them with full hope that as they arise,
God, whose very own you are,
will lead you safely through all things;
and when you cannot stand it,
God will carry you in His arms.
Do not fear what may happen tomorrow,
The same everlasting Father who cares for you today
will take care of you then and every day.
He will either shield you from suffering,
or will give you unfailing strength to bear it.
Be at peace and put aside all anxious thoughts and imaginations.

For Death is the stranger we must all meet some day.

In sympathy, Lena inRI

[SHRED]

28. I couldn't do it

---

He is better than me.

I know that right now, if maintenance records are not accurate, that new ones are being made.

Having military bases over residential areas is downright ugly for many reasons including the "conditioning" aspect.
I know people like the airshows here at Miramar but it sickens me and to celebrate these death machines does not interest me one bit.

---

[Obamanaut]

29. Neither could I. nt

[Lex1775]

30. Two things...

A) Miramar was there long before any of those residential areas existed. When it was built it was out in the boonies. Blame the land developers for building houses and neighborhoods underneath the flight ops area.

B) You are obviously ignorant of the actions that occur after a military aircraft crashes. First and foremost the maintenance records are seized by the base commander or law enforcement. They are immediately sealed until the crash investigation board convenes. I have personally witnessed the maintenance records of a crashed F-16 being taken off the top of the tool box of the crew chief, before the poor kid even knew that his airplane had gone down.

[still_one]

33. Your first point is right on. Developers build in all sorts of areas where they shouldn't

Look at the building that has occurred on the Hayward fault. Full of hospitals and schools

[slackmaster]

47. The city of San Diego was specifically warned about this problem by a consultant, in 1979

...The F/A-18D missed University City High School by a quarter-mile. In 1979, a defense researcher warned in a report against building the school or houses too close to the end of the Miramar runway. Many residents fought construction of the school for 17 years because of safety and environmental issues, but the school's backers prevailed, and University City High opened in 1981.

“A substantial threat of a catastrophic accident exists in the community west of Miramar,” said Jerry Kopecek, the study's author, who was then a vice president for the Navy consultant Science Applications Inc. The company is now known as SAIC.

Don Yoon, now 37, and Youngmi Lee, 36, were married four years ago.
Kopecek, now retired, said he looked at half a century of data showing that most crashes occurred within two miles of the end of a runway.

The predictions of long-ago consultants and activists meant little to Don Yoon yesterday as he grieved for his family....

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20081210/news_1n10jet.html

I remember very well the controversy about the chosen location for that school, and fought against it as much as I could in my last year of undergraduate work at UCSD. (My family moved to La Jolla just a few miles west of that location in 1966).

[SHRED]

35. two things reply

A) I am opposed to military bases near residential areas no matter who was there first.

B) I was speaking from my cynicism based opinion. If facts dictate a sound ivestigation then I am all for it.

[MindPilot]

42. San Diego is a military town -- always has been always will be

Until it is no longer strategically located at the southwestern-most corner of the country, accepting that fact--just like fires and earthquakes--is one of the rules for living here.

[gorfle]

66. Thanks for that, Lex.

Thanks for that insight, Lex.

[still_one]

31. That is not a normal reaction, and I can only attribute it to shock. I would like to

to know more about the circumstances why the pilot bailed out over the area where he did, before I would be so forgiving

You comments about the airshows are right on

[slackmaster]

48. The anger stage may emerge later

The man needs a lot of room and a lot of support.

[MichellesBFF]

32. I know that they mentioned his church in the article

But his reaction sounds very Buddhist to me. (And also very Christian. It brings to mind the Amish, when their tragedy happened.)

I can't help but admire greatly people like him who are so beautiful in the face of such a great loss. I'd like to hope that I would react in a similar manner, if something terrible happened in my life, but I'm not so sure that I would. It's definitely a state of mind that I aspire to. (While also hoping that nothing of this magnitude does happen.)

Anyway, I wish for him swift healing...

[SHRED]

34. well said

[awoke_in_2003]

36. "his reaction sounds very Buddhist to me"

Have to agree. Mainstream religion is more "me" oriented

[SavageDem]

43. Buddhism *is* a mainstream religion.

Just depends what stream you happen to worship in.

[awoke_in_2003]

104. should have worded as...

mainstream in America.

[AnneD]

120. LOL.......

that brightened my day.

And most mainstream religions are not "me" oriented.
My first thoughts was what are the odds. Just incalculable.
My second thought-Air bases are built in the middle of nowhere. I was an AF brat and the noise from the planes to me are very reassuring. I always knew it could happen but I knew my daddy did everything he could do to keep em flying.

We never know the minute or hour of our death. In his mind he know it was an accident or maybe God's Will but it will still take his heart a long time to recover. He has the comfort of his loving community and a Faith in God. He is an example of Christian forgiveness. I hope the military don't screw him over. He deserves better.

[AngryAmish]

100. a religion with hundreds of millions of adherents is not mainstream?

[awoke_in_2003]

105. should have worded as...

mainstream in America

[Christa]

37. He will never have enough tears

I hope he has a support system, being an immigrant.

[elocs]

39. This is a huge moral lesson for the "I can never forgive..." crowd we so often see post here.

Dong Yun Yoon is a great man who could teach a lesson to all of us.

[MindPilot]

41. Yep -- right here in this very thread. n/t

[MindPilot]

40. His comment about his father in law made me cry

Mr Yoon's father in law will be arriving from Korea today. "I don't know how he can ever forgive me." Mr Yoon said.

I'm thinking probably the same way you forgave the pilot. What a man!

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dysfunctional press]

46. huh...?

do you know how to scroll? :shrug:

besides- it's not exactly "latest breaking news" anymore- try general discussion.

[MindPilot]

80. Sorry, but I can't figure out what that has to do with my comment. n/t

[varkam]

45. I don't really know *what* to say, but I feel compelled to say *something*

My hat is off to Mr. Yun Yoon. Would that we all possessed such courage and fortitude to be able to recognize our shared humanity even in the wake of unimaginable personal tragedy and suffering. It is people like Mr. Yun Yoon that restore my hope and faith in human beings.

Thank you, sir.

[Mari333]

49. he is exemplifying what love is

and I understand some of what he is going thru, having had a son and 2 husbands cross over. he is exemplifying forgiveness, and that equates to a love that is unfathomable and infinite. I read so many stories filled with anger and revenge, it is kind and good to read a story that has no blame, no anger, and no revenge in it.
Mr Yoon will be alright, in time. Right now he is in a shock thats so severe that he can barely breathe.
carrying anger and revenge does a person no good, and I had to learn that the hard way.
god bless you mr yoon. your family are your angels now, and will always be with you and you are already representing an unconditional love that is the very fabric of the universe by your forgiveness.

[mistertrickster]

50. Gee, maybe the military shouldn't make training flights over densly packed suburbs.

Do you think the Air Force flies F-18's over Dick Cheney's ranch when he's there.

I'm guessing no . . .

[slackmaster]

53. You really should learn what actually happened before making such judgements

To begin with, the training flight was happening over the ocean. The military does not make training flights over populated areas, and never has done that.

I'll leave it to you to learn the rest.

[bdab1973]

55. Military training flights...

The military performs training flights all over the place. The point isn't WHERE the training is or isn't accomplished, it's that military training flights aren't any more dangerous than other flights. Hell, go out to your local airport, and you'll probably see little Cessnas flying around in the local traffic pattern. More than likely, there are 17 year old kids being taught how to fly airplanes in them.

I went to pilot training in both Alabama and Texas, both over land, and flew over cities and towns all the time. It's unavoidable here in the United States...there are too many towns, too many airplanes (military and civilian) and not enough places to train to send all training flights over "unpopulated" areas.

Only certain kinds of military training are done in unpopulated areas, those deemed too risky to do over cities and towns. For that type of training, the military has Military Operations Areas and Restricted airspace set aside.

Teaching a smart young Lieutenant how to takeoff and land a military jet trainer isn't any more dangerous than teaching some young kid how to take off and land in a civilian trainer. Your day would be a bad day if either crashed into your house. It's retarded that people here keep saying "the military should train where there are no people". Ok, stop being retarded...this is the United States, with over 300,000,000 people living in it. There aren't many places that are considered unpopulated anymore, and those left are already nature preserves, parks, or set aside as military airspace already.

Having students learn how to take off and land isn't that dangerous. The airplanes use the special airspace for things like air-to-air combat, bombing run practice or special other tactical maneuvers. That type of training is much more dangerous and obviously should not be performed over a city. But takeoff and landing? That stuff should be the most routine, easy part of flying an airplane...at least in the military.

Next time I fly a C-130 cross country, I'll get on here and tell you all what cities I flew over, so maybe all of you can go into Alarm Red and freak out about having a "dangerous" military airplane performing "training". By the way, nearly all flights conducted within the United States by military aircraft, unless specifically tasked with carrying cargo or passengers, is performing some kind of training.

I have personally done "training" over San Diego...we did HALO drops for the Navy seals just north of the Mexican border, and yes, in order to land and depart from North Island, we took off and landed right over San Diego. I've even flown right over downtown (GASP!!!) when we flew into Lindbergh. And yes, it was still "training".

Feel free to discuss and freak out.

[mistertrickster]

59. So you're saying that the military does make training flights over Dick Cheney's house?

Thanks, I didn't know that.

I don't know where to get the statistics, but I've never heard of a commercial flight hitting a house and killing people. I'm sure it has happened, but I've never heard of it.

However, I know of many, many MILITARY flights that have crashed into people's houses and killed them.

Given that there are far more commercial flights and far fewer military flights, one can only come to the conclusion that military flights pose a greater danger to people on the ground.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[valerief]

71. Private aircraft flown by people who got rich off the decimation of the middle class

are the biggest crash threat to those on the ground. Then the military.

T

[bdab1973]

83. Private aircraft aren't necessarily owned by the rich...

QUESTION: How much does your typical privately owned single-engine airplane cost?

ANSWER: You can buy a used one for about the same price as a ski boat.

I have several friends that own their own airplanes...they are not rich either. Some people buy RVs. Some own boats. Others buy airplanes. You can buy a single-engine Cessna for as little as $20,000. A typical four-seat Cessna will run you about $40,000. They aren't cheap, but they aren't the realm of the rich and famous either. Many of the newer airplanes do run over $100,000, but you can get an aircraft loan with a 10, 15 or even 20 year payment schedule. Most of these newer airplanes are owned by small business owners, that use them for business travel. Most of them are doing well, but are hardly ultra-rich.

[valerief]

121. If they can afford to own and keep an aircraft, they don't have to

worry about becoming homeless due to a layoff. In America, that's rich.

[Regret My New Name]

123. So if you're middle class and not laid off then you're rich?

Wait, you're not only 'rich', but you got there because of the 'decimation' of others. Right.

[valerief]

145. It must be nice to be king. nt

[Regret My New Name]

154. Are we playing checkers or chess?

[bdab1973]

156. They make about $60K a year...that's not rich

You spoke of this middle class...so what would be "middle class" in your book? Flipping burgers for $7 an hour?

[valerief]

164. You responded to the wrong person. I didn't speak of the middle class. nt

[MindPilot]

89. I know several private pilots

There are several pilots here on DU. None of us are anywhere close to rich.

So, please, put away that big broad brush before you hurt yourself.

[valerief]

165. They all own their planes and homes? nt

[WriteDown]

75. Please post some links...

to all these military flights crashing into houses. It is incredibly rare.

[Longhorn Liberal]

85. Accidents do occur

"...I've never heard of a commercial flight hitting a house and killing people. I'm sure it has happened, but I've never heard of it."

American Airlines Flight 587
Queens, NY November 12, 2001



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_587

[MindPilot]

86. "but I've never heard of a commercial flight hitting a house and killing people"

Pacific Southwest Airlines (PSA) Flight 182, registration N533PS, was a Boeing 727-214 commercial airliner that collided over San Diego, California with a private Cessna 172 on September 25, 1978. The death toll of 144 makes it the deadliest aircraft disaster in Californian history to date, and it was the first Pacific Southwest Airlines incident involving fatalities. It was also the deadliest plane crash in the history of the United States until American Airlines Flight 191 went down eight months later.

The Boeing crashed into North Park, a San Diego neighborhood, killing all 135 on board. The two men aboard the Cessna died, as did seven people on the ground, including a family of four. Nine others on the ground were injured and 22 homes were destroyed or damaged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Flight_182

[petronius]

97. Not to mention AA 587 (Queens, NY) or AeroMexico 498 (Cerritos, CA)

I'd guess that more houses have been hit and people killed by commercial crashes than military crashes...

[Xithras]

96. You've never heard of a commercial flight killing people?

Even excluding the terrorism ones:

Last year:
A jetliner hit a residential neighborhood in Congo and killed 50 people.
A TAM airlines jet hit a residential neighborhood in Brazil and killed 12 on the ground.

2005:
Flight 1248 in Chicago ran off the runway and struck several vehicles on a nearby raodway. A six year old boy was killed in his own carseat.
Mandala Airlines 747 in Indonesia crashes into a residential area, killing 47 on the ground.

2004:
A China Airlines Bombardier crashes, killing two on the ground.

2001:
American Airlines flight 587 lands in Queens nose first and missing a tail, killing five on the ground.

2000:
The Concorde slammed into a small inn outside of Paris, killing four people on the ground.
Alliance Air 747 crashed into residences in India, killing five on the ground.

So, that's 126 innocent civilians killed worldwide since 2000 by civilian commercial airliners plunging down on their heads. I suspect that the number of people killed in that same period by falling fighter jets would be much smaller.

The reason you don't "hear" about these is the way they are reported. Flight 587 is a good example of this. That jet plunged to the ground and killed 260 passengers and crew. That was the lead during the stories, and the five killed on the ground were almost reported as an afterthought.

[A HERETIC I AM]

106. You must have a very short memory for aviation accidents. AA Flt 587

265 fatalities including 5 on the ground
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_587


List of commercial aircraft accidents by year;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_on_commercial_airliners_grouped_by_year

[11 Bravo]

111. On September 25, 1978 PSA flight 182 crashed in, coincidentally enough, San Diego ...

after colliding with a private Cessna. Seven people were killed on the ground, and 22 houses were destroyed or damaged.

[sgsmith]

116. New York, November 2001

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/11/12/newyork.crash/

Queens, NY.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/07/25/concorde.crash.05/

Paris, France into a hotel

My guess is you don't pay much attention to the news, other than to jump to conclusions.

[slackmaster]

118. Here's a link so mistertrickster can do some actual research and let us know

If military flights really do pose more of a risk than civilian ones.

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/

From my own experience living, working, and/or attending school in the vicinity of Miramar almost continuously for 42 years, I'd say that military flights are far safer for any reasonable definition of terms.

[mistertrickster]

133. Thanks for the link. I did some research. Here's what I found.

I compared fatal air accidents between the US military and civilian commercial flights from 2002-2005. Commercial included airlines, short hop, air taxi, scenic flights, and cargo flights. Military EXCLUDED all flights in a war zone and all non-fixed wing aircraft.

Results from 2002-2005 inclusive--

Fatal civilian air accidents = 11

Fatal non-combat military air accidents = 7

Given the number of civilian flights versus the number of military flights, one can see that the military flights are a lot more dangerous.

[Pavulon]

135. Death toll? you missed a year

Go back a year, your number may change slightly. I am sure the government has conspired to kill people by dropping 50 million dollar jets on them. Pretty expensive method to wipe us out.

Just for shits and giggles pull deaths from civil aviation, its a blood bath.

Better yet, dumbshits with cell phones and blackberries driving around.

Unless there wad demonstrable negligence this is a true accident.

[mistertrickster]

138. Of course the gov't doesn't conspire to kill people by dropping jets on them.

C'mon, dude. You really think that's my point?

I still can't figure how a jet launched off of an aircraft carrier at sea hit a house on shore.

That's the negligence part . . .

[slackmaster]

141. Two word explanation

Shit happens.

[Pavulon]

144. Go drop a rock

that is what modern fighters do without power. Any complete loss of power and controls systems fail. glide ratios are terrible on modern fighters which is irrelevant because he probably had no ability to move control surfaces anyway.

So if he was making a landing and lost engines he has no ability to maneuver.

[bdab1973]

157. You can't figure it out because you don't know any better...

Carrier aircraft aren't always kept on an aircraft carrier. All Navy and Marine squadrons have a land-based home airfield. This squadron in particular usually only goes to the boat for carrier qualification (it's a training unit), they don't deploy on the ship. The aircraft carrier they were using was off the coast for the purpose of allowing the normally land-based Marine squadrons get their carrier qualification. Although Marine units fly from shore often, they also have the option of operating from an aircraft carrier.

[slackmaster]

140. Please show the statistics comparing the number of military vs. civilian flights

Given the number of civilian flights versus the number of military flights, one can see that the military flights are a lot more dangerous.

O RLY?

In the air space around where I work, it's at least 50 military flights to every civilian flight I see.

I think the most meaningful way to compare would be miles travelled. (And most of the military flight miles around here are over the Pacific Ocean.

[bdab1973]

158. You are comparing apples to oranges...

Take what I do...I fly C-130s. A simple cargo hauler, eh? Not really...

I've had people ask me if it's boring driving a bus...my answer...

No, it's not boring, because we fly visual formation at 300 feet above the ground during the day, 500 feet over the ground at night. We also can fly formation in the weather, but at higher IFR altitudes. We do this all the way along the route, until at the slowdown point, where we slow the entire formation to drop airspeed and climb to our drop altitude. At this point, all the aircraft in the formation open their doors, and over the DZ (drop zone) we call GREEN LIGHT and either a pallet, CDS bundles or people go falling out the back end. After the loadmaster calls "LOAD CLEAR", we close up the doors, and accelerate to our normal cruise speed and descend back down to 300 feet to egress the DZ, then we recover as a formation back to an airfield, and often times that means landing a 130,000 lb four-engine cargo plane on a 3,000 foot long dirt runway (most civilian commercial airports have runways over 10,000 feet long). And yes, sometimes we land on those tiny dirt strips at night wearing night vision goggles.

THAT is why you see a higher accident rate with military aviation. It's much riskier to do what we do on a daily basis versus calling "GEAR UP", set the autopilot on, cruise to your next destination for a few hours, then call "GEAR DOWN" and land. Commercial operators are generally safer because they have uncomplicated flights going from point A to point B.

This F/A-18 accident wasn't due to the Marine Corps trying to do risky "training" over a populated area...they were doing what they always must do...LAND. I think if you broke down the accidents (civil versus military) into a phase of flight (ie, landing, cruise, takeoff, low-level tactical flying, etc) you'll find that the military is just as safe as the civilians doing normal airplane stuff (ie, takeoff and landing).

[sufrommich]

124. On Aug. 16th,1987 a commercial jet taking off from

Metro Detroit Airport crashed onto an interstate freeway near it:

http://www.flight255memorial.com/thecrash.html

[mistertrickster]

64. Because we all know that the military's first priority is keeping everyone safe, right?

:sarcasm:

[slackmaster]

74. As a member of a multi-generation military family, your snarky attitude offends me

:nuke:

[MindPilot]

77. I'm a pilot, Navy veteran, San Diegan, and son of an Air Force veteran

You are beginning to piss me off.

[JonQ]

95. No the militarys primary goal

is to kill american civilians for no apparent reason in the least cost effective ways possible.

:eyes:

This was a tragedy of course. But not an intentional one. Private and commercial aircraft crash as well, but no one claims they're out to kill americans.

Freak accident. If the pilot screwed up I'm sure he will be punished. If it was a mechanical failure (which at the moment seems to be the case) they will find what went wrong and fix it. You should be ashamed of trying to turn this tragedy in to some anti-military screed.

[sufrommich]

126. Most people have members of their families who were or

are military.Do you imagine they're all monsters? What a silly little black and white world you live in.

[mistertrickster]

129. To all the "defenders" of the military: non-armored humvees, lack of body armor,

use of depleted uranium munitions, Agent Orange, Gulf War Syndrome, untested anthrax vaccine used on troops.

"You go to war with the military you've got, not the military you wish you had."

Ring any bells?

Having a military plane hit a house is not an unavoidable accident. I think it fits a consistent pattern.

That doesn't make me anti-military. It makes me able to draw conclusions from evidence.

ON EDIT--The US Military is also the world's single largest producer of hazardous waste in the world.

[MindPilot]

134. Every one of those things you mentioned were products of the civilian leadership

This was an aviation accident. The fact that it was a military plane is incidental.

[mistertrickster]

136. "Civilian leadership" like Donald Rumsfeld and George W. Bush?

Yeah, I guess technically they are civilians . . .

[Pavulon]

139. Civilian led military...Thats how it works

So is barack obama a civilian? Soon to be running the most powerful military in the history of the world.

[Pavulon]

137. DU works

I hauled and handled it. It kills tanks and provides an advantage to the person putting it downrange. All the bullshit came from Iraq during the sanctions, not from Yugoslavia. DU is a social issue, that is how oncology community views it.

Building in the glidepath is what it is. A calculated risk.

The military does a job, we are not pacifists and the party supports the military.

What is your point?

[mistertrickster]

142. My point is that Depleted Uranium is chemical warfare. It is a known

carcinogin and heavy metal toxin.

In the US, it has to be treated like the nuclear waste that it is.

On the battlefield, we just atomize it and spread it to the far winds.

But not to worry, it'll be harmless in only 10 billion years or so.

[Pavulon]

147. Negative, DU is a whine issue

DU is a social issue. Oncology journals do not view the alpha emitter as a significant problem. You can buy DU on the internet and set it on your desk at work. Like lead, just dont eat it.

http://www.unitednuclear.com/uranium.htm

You dont want the gamma emitters on this site, those are could be dangerous.

link to oncology journal noting the DU sham:
http://www.onk.ns.ac.yu/Archive/Vol9/PDFVol9/V9n4p213.pdf

I work with systems that handle it for ballast. It ends up in aircraft and sailboats.

It also ruins your day if you are in a t-72 hit by that round.

[mistertrickster]

149. No doubt it's easier to believe that than not, given the widespread use of DU

as a munition, but YUGOSLAVIA?

You had to cite a journal in Yugoslavia for this "evidence" that DU isn't harmful.

Here's a couple on the other side--

Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences, Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute, 8901 Wisconsin Avenue, Building 42, Bethesda, MD 20889-5603, USA. [e-mail]

The use of depleted uranium in armor-penetrating munitions remains a source of controversy because of the numerous unanswered questions about its long-term health effects. Although no conclusive epidemiologic data have correlated DU exposure to specific health effects, studies using cultured cells and laboratory rodents continue to suggest the possibility of leukemogenic, genetic, reproductive, and neurological effects from chronic exposure. Until issues of concern are resolved with further research, the use of depleted uranium by the military will continue to be controversial.


A SCOTS ex-soldier has become the first veteran to win a pension appeal after being diagnosed with depleted uranium (DU) poisoning during the 1991 Gulf war.

A Pension Appeal Tribunal Service hearing in Edinburgh accepted medical evidence provided by Kenny Duncan, of Clackmannan, previously dismissed by the MoD, which revealed he had become ill after service in the Middle East.

Mr Duncan, 35, a driver with 7 Tank Transporter Regiment, helped move tanks destroyed by shells containing the poisonous dust.

He says he has evidence that his children’s health problems are linked to his service. Kenneth, 10, Andrew, eight, and six-year-old Heather, have symptoms similar to those suffered by some Iraqi children, including deformed toes, and low immune systems making them susceptible to asthma, hay fever and eczema.

Mr Duncan has suffered increasing breathlessness and aching joints which he has linked to DU.

During the conflict, US and British troops fired an estimated 350 tonnes of DU weapons at Iraqi tanks.

Doctors in southern Iraq have reported a marked increase in cancers and birth defects, and suspicion has grown that they were caused by DU contamination from tank battles.

DU has been linked to a leukaemia cluster around the MoD range at Dundrennan, near the Solway Firth. Communities close to the range show the highest rate of childhood leukaemia in the UK.

Mr Duncan’s appeal was launched after he was awarded only about �40 a week, half the full pension, when he retired from the Army through ill health in 1993 after nine years’ service. His pension will now be reassessed.

The National Gulf Veterans and Families Association (NGVFA) said the tribunal decision added weight to its call for a full independent inquiry into Gulf war illnesses and supported its view that the government should do more financially to help the victims.

Mr Duncan’s case relied on blood tests carried out by Dr Albrecht Schott, a German biochemist, which revealed chromosome aberrations caused by ionising radiation.

Dr Schott’s research formed part of a study of 16 British veterans of conflicts in the Gulf, Bosnia, and Kosovo, which found that they had 14 times the usual level of chromosome abnormalities in their genes, raising fears that they will pass cancers and genetic illnesses to their offspring.

The test results were dismissed by the MoD as “neither well thought out nor scientifically sound”.

Mr Duncan said yesterday: “It is just a huge relief to have someone in authority say that you have been poisoned by this stuff and that you are not telling lies. It is now time for the MoD to tell us what went wrong.

“For all those veterans who have been going to the doctor with these ailments and are being told there is nothing wrong with them, this is for them, and I hope it will help them.

“I doubt that I will benefit much financially from this, but it wasn’t about the money, it was about the principle of the thing.”

The ministry said yesterday: “Once we have seen the decision, we will consider the implications it might have on the MoD.”

[Pavulon]

153. Handled it, just never ate it.

msds was pretty simple. I provided a link, you have unsourced information with some poor fools email embedded.

[bdab1973]

160. Beware of touching clay, if you're worried about DU

Don't handle clay too much...with a high cation exchange capacity, clay holds quite a few radioactive isotopes, and many clay samples I have seen have a higher radioactive count than DU.

[5thGenDemocrat]

93. The base was there long before the houses were

Maybe developers shouldn't build subdivisions underneath the flight paths of active military airfields.
John
Chicken, meet egg.

[AtheistCrusader]

102. This is pointless to argue over but...

Which do you think was there first, the house or the military base? I can make an educated guess based on the photos of the neighboring houses, but again, pointless to debate over.

There are jobs in and around military bases. Civilian infrastructure will pretty much always encroach upon them.

[pansypoo53219]

51. i blame he pilot.

i see tom cruise. but worse.

[bdab1973]

54. WTF??

You see Tom Cruise, but worse...what is that supposed to mean?

[DS1]

82. It was the Tom Cruise from Cocktail

[Kajsa]

52. Mr. Yoon is a remarkable man.

His strength and courage are an example for all of us.

His deep ties with his church are helping him as he deals
with a tragedy that is beyond comprehension.
His pastor has been by his side continuously.

His entire family was killed in an instant.

I can't even imagine what that poor man is going through.

:cry:

[frylock]

56. i don't blame the pilot either..

I blame whoever decided that trying to save that plane was more important than public safety. That Hornet should've been dumped in the drink. Instead they opted to limp an airplane home that had already lost one engine. So the plane is lost as well as this man's family. I hope someone is held responsible.

[bdab1973]

60. Airplanes can fly just fine on one engine

I've flown aircraft back with an engine out five times. It's normal...the airplane is designed to fly with one engine...that's why it has two. The second engine is there for redundancy, to allow the aircraft to recover in case one quit. Engines don't fail often, but when they do, it's nice to have another engine to get you home instead of ditching a $50 million dollar aircraft every time. Ask the USAF how that works...the F-16 has one engine, and it also has the nickname "Lawn Dart".

[petronius]

63. Unfortunately for Mr. Yoon, his cogressional rep is Duncan Hunter, who already

sounds like he's in full-blown absolve-the-military mode. I hope (and would't be surprised to find) that there are decent conscientous people in the USMC and at Miramar who will treat the victims fairly and make an honest effort to reach a just outcome.

It would be interesting to know how often these situations arise in SD and what the policy is - Hornets are supposed to fly on one engine, and it's probably standard practice to send a crippled aircraft toward a land base rather than a carrier, but to what degree was this a foreseeable disaster?

[slackmaster]

76. Wrong - That neighborhood is in District 50

Mr. Yoon's representative is Brian Bilbray.

[petronius]

99. Thanks for the correction - I assumed from all the Hunter quotes I've been seeing

that it was his district. However, I'm not sure Bilbray is any improvement...

[slackmaster]

101. I know both men, Bilbray is quite different from Hunter

He's still a Republican but a lot more reasonable in many ways.

[petronius]

103. That's interesting - when we were in grad school in SD in the 90s we

had a very negative impression of Bilbrary (not that I remember any specific details of why). Perhaps he's improved, or perhaps time has darkened up my recollection. On the other hand, being better than Hunter is pretty faint praise...

[MindPilot]

79. For whatever reason ATC decided to take him to Miramar

instead of North Island. That's one of those decisions that you can second-guess forever, but I don't for a minute believe that anyone made a conscience decision to put the value of that airplane over the lives on the ground.

It was the second engine failure that was the completely unforeseen one-in-10-billion-odds of occurring and once that happens that airplane becomes a rock. Fighter jets are like no other aircraft in that they do not glide with no power; they just fall.

[420inTN]

130. Re: "Fighter jets are like no other aircraft in that they do not glide with no power"

Well, other than helicopters.

As one helo pilot once said, "Helicopters don't fly... they beat the air into submission."

[gravity]

132. No one is to blame

Sometimes shit just happens. Why do we always feel that someone has to remain responsible for every bad event.

[ronnykmarshall]

61. My heart goes out to this man.

I really admire him for his kind words for the pilot in middle of his grief.

[southernyankeebelle]

65. Truly sad

No amount of money the government will give this man will bring back his family. He is right that it isn't the pilots fault. The pilot will have to live with that guilt. Mr Yoon has a big heart. May the good lord help him get through this ruff period. God bless him. Be strong because you have to be.

[JohnAB]

69. were all lost for words

As i think there are no words
but open space of on known tears
vast sheets of open sky as some day we will all have to fly.

I m sorry for your loss my heart fills your lose and crys

every life is a profession of faith
a silent influence , that doe's not lie.

I think i'll be silent today and have a cry. John

[Kajsa]

72. Welcome to DU, John.

That was very nice.

:)

[maxsolomon]

81. my wife used to live 5 doors down that street.

that neighborhood has been there for years. there are ravines all over the place in that neighborhood that the pilot could have sent that plane into rather than bailing & crossing his fingers while the plane corkscrewed down with no one at the controls. other pilots have put planes down in residential neighborhoods without killing civilians in their homes.

you are responsible for where your plane lands.

[MindPilot]

88. Where did you take your flight training? Dave & Busters?

Once a fighter loses power it does not glide like a cessna or even a commercial jet; it just falls.

[cactusfractal]

109. Dave & Busters! LOL

Guy's not familiar with the aeronautical term "brick"....

[maxsolomon]

112. the he should have stayed with the plane & done the best he could

to avoid doing exactly what he did. if it's not the pilot's responsibility, who's is it? the developer of the neighborhood in 1975?

[bdab1973]

113. He did...the plane was UNCONTROLLABLE...you know...can't control it?

Staying with it wouldn't have done squat.

[Posteritatis]

119. Guess some people think the pilot should have chosen to die too (nt)

[slackmaster]

146. Yes, the Monday-morning quarterbacking is disgusting

:nuke:

[bdab1973]

90. Your assumptions are wrong

The F/A-18, like other jet fighter aircraft, have hydraulic flight controls that are manipulated by hydraulic booster packs that receive an electronic signal from the flight control system. There are no mechanical linkages between the cockpit controls and the flight control surfaces. Even if there was, once you lose hydraulic power, it would take an incredible amount of strength to move the controls even a little bit. Basically, once some jet aircraft (even commercial airliners) lose engine power, the flight controls are nearly useless. There are exceptions...the Learjet I used to fly had traditional flight controls that weren't hydraulically assisted, but that's a relatively small airplane. An F/A-18 is about twice the size of a Learjet, and again, has digital flight controls that require engine power to drive the hydraulic systems.

Once the second engine failed, the airplane was rendered uncontrollable. This isn't just something that happens with military aircraft, either. Read about the Souix City crash of the United DC-10...it didn't lose all of it's engines, but an uncontained engine failure destroyed hydraulic lines to the flight controls, and the airplane was only controllable using asymetric thrust from the remaining two engines.

[cactusfractal]

110. They think a modern jet is like a Sopwith Camel, only faster...

eom

[MindPilot]

128. LOL! Good one!

They also assume that everyone in the military joined up just so they might have the opportunity to kill people by dropping large expensive objects on them.

[Milspec]

169. The Souix City crew did some incredible flying

After the crash United put 20 of their top pilots in simulators to try a duplicate the conditions. None of them kept the aircraft in the air for more than 10 minute's.

[Codeine]

107. Jet fighters don't glide.

Their design is for minimum drag and maximum speed, which means once they are at a low-energy state they drop like a big steel rock. Fighter pilots don't punch out while they have the slightest ability to control the plane - if a pilot ejects it's because the plane has ceased to be a plane and has become a falling object with zero control.

[bdab1973]

108. Wow, someone who actually seems to get it...

A welcoming post full of logic instead of incorrect assumptions based on watching too many Hollywood movies.

[Regret My New Name]

125. Tom Cruise would have landed it safely... I don't see why this pilot couldn't have done the same.

:|

[bdab1973]

159. I am assuming that you're joking...

But given some of the posts in this thread, it wouldn't surprise me if you weren't.

[Regret My New Name]

161. Of course I'm not joking. Haven't you ever seen top gun?

That dude knows how to fly.

[gauguin57]

84. I will pray for this man every day.

I cannot begin to imagine. I just cannot.

[HEyHEY]

91. Wow, it's been a bad year for Korean Immgrants

Up here a family died in a house fire, and another one was murdered by their father. So terrible.

[closeupready]

92. I feel so bad for this guy.

:cry: My heart goes out to him.

[JonQ]

94. Amazing

in his situation I know that some part of my brain would be saying the pilot didn't intend this, it was a freak accident, etc. And ultimately I wouldn't blame him for it. But I don't think I could come out and say it so quickly or succinctly.

I can't imagine what he's going through and I really hope his neighbors, friends, remaining family pull together to help him through. Poor guy.

[fbahrami]

114. Someone please explain why

"He is one of our treasures for the country".

[bdab1973]

115. Why does it bother you that he has that opinion?

It probably has to do with the fact that he's hinting that the pilot is someone who does something dangerous on a daily basis in the service of this country, ie, landing on an aircraft carrier...it's not exactly risk-free.

[slackmaster]

117. It sounds like the man is a real patriot, like many immigrants are

Something few of us ever really understand.

[sufrommich]

122. Incredibly sad thing to witness. What a truly wonderful,

forgiving person. I hope both he and the soldier find peace.

[Regret My New Name]

127. :( Poor guy. I hope he makes it through it alright. His life is changed forever.

[pointblank]

131. I just saw this press conference

I am crying my eyes out right now.

As a huge religion skeptic I have to say god bless this man and give him the strength to go on...I'm not sure I could.

Steve

[ohio2007]

143. He is a Korean immigrant

People really don't know much about Korea if they don't understand his comments.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3634258&mesg_id=3634258

[Posteritatis]

148. What's a 30-something Korean immigrant have to do with an event in 1950? (nt)

[all.of.me]

150. A spiritually evolved human.

How refreshing. I am so sorry for his loss, but I applaud his compassion for the pilot.

There is a man in our town who lost his wife to breast cancer when his kids were really little. Then a car accident about 10 years later took his two daughters and mother-in-law. This man lost everything. He traveled for a few years and returned. Now he writes a newspaper column about overcoming grief. He is the expert.

My thoughts and prayers are with Dong Yun Yoon.

[bitchkitty]

167. So touching. My heart is full of pity for this man,

and for the pilot as well. What a thing to have to live with.

I hope the two of them can meet, and help each other.

[fbahrami]

168. A real patriot