Bad Times Draw Bigger Crowds to Churches

[onehandle]

Source: New York Times

The sudden crush of worshipers packing the small evangelical Shelter Rock Church in Manhasset, N.Y. — a Long Island hamlet of yacht clubs and hedge fund managers — forced the pastor to set up an overflow room with closed-circuit TV and 100 folding chairs, which have been filled for six Sundays straight.

Shelter Rock Church is an evangelical church that has prospered in the wealthy community of Manhasset, N.Y.
In Seattle, the Mars Hill Church, one of the fastest-growing evangelical churches in the country, grew to 7,000 members this fall, up 1,000 in a year. At the Life Christian Church in West Orange, N.J., prayer requests have doubled — almost all of them aimed at getting or keeping jobs.

Like evangelical churches around the country, the three churches have enjoyed steady growth over the last decade. But since September, pastors nationwide say they have seen such a burst of new interest that they find themselves contending with powerful conflicting emotions — deep empathy and quiet excitement — as they re-encounter an old piece of religious lore:

snip...

A recent spot check of some large Roman Catholic parishes and mainline Protestant churches around the nation indicated attendance increases there, too. But they were nowhere near as striking as those reported by congregations describing themselves as evangelical, a term generally applied to churches that stress the literal authority of Scripture and the importance of personal conversion, or being “born again.”

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/14/nyregion/14churches.html

[Newsjock]

1. Can we hurry up with this Rapture thing already?

Get the riff-raff off this planet, and let us get on with the business of undoing the damage they've wrought.

[onehandle]

3. 8 out of 10 Americans would disappear.

Our work capable population would be gone and we would be reduced to less than bronze age technology.

Communist China and the Muslim world would war over the remainder of the world.

I call it for the Chinese and their nukes.

Americans "left behind" that were not killed, would be integrated into Chinese society. Or made slaves.

With absolute power, I think the Chinese would revert back decades to Cultural Revolution times.

I'm not in favor of the Rapture any time soon.

[juno jones]

5. I think 8 out of ten

is a little optimistic.

The ones who deserve 'rapture' (which isn't even a real christian tenet, but a recent heresy) don't want to go. Especially not to some kind of gated, micromanaged community in the sky.

The ones who want to be raptured and are doing their damnedest to bring about 'end times'...they are apostate idiots. They ain't going nowhere for an incarnation or three.

[onehandle]

10. Who died and made you God?

Kidding.

I was talking from the view of much of DU. They lump everyday regular people who just happen to be Christian in with the fanatics.

They would like to see them all disappear.

DU = FR in many ways.

[askeptic]

70. Always risky to generalize

...including generalizing about nontheistic people.

[Lifetimedem]

22. Do you plan to be left behind ? :)

[nebenaube]

41. uh... yeah! n/t

[Nihil]

61. And one comes flying straight out of the woodwork ...

> 8 out of 10 Americans would disappear.

Check the stats: There's no way that evangelical Christians have 80% of the
US population on their books.

> Our work capable population would be gone ...

You're suggesting that only the children and the pensioners will be
"left behind"? Sounds real charitable there.

> ... and we would be reduced to less than bronze age technology.

No, no, no ... the ones who are "Raptured" don't get to take all of their
toys with them! They all rise up naked and leave *everything* behind.
Go back and read it again.

> Communist China and the Muslim world would war over the remainder of
> the world.

By "the remainder of the world" I guess you mean "the USA"?
Hopefully, the view from your Rapturing soul will prove to you that
there is a lot of "the world" outside your little borders ...

> I call it for the Chinese and their nukes.
> Americans "left behind" that were not killed, would be integrated into
> Chinese society. Or made slaves.
> With absolute power, I think the Chinese would revert back decades to
> Cultural Revolution times.

One could say that you are being exceptionally racist there (harking back
to the "Yellow Peril" days?) but maybe you're just befuddled.

> I'm not in favor of the Rapture any time soon.

Shame. Where's your faith? You're supposed to be ready at all times!

[onehandle]

67. If you had read post #10, you would have seen that I was really commenting on DU, but I'll play...

Check the stats: There's no way that evangelical Christians have 80% of the
US population on their books.

> I never said evangelicals and neither did the person I posted to. That should have been your first clue.

Our work capable population would be gone ...

> 8 out of 10 of everyone means everyone. In this improbable scenario, our society would simply fail. Another 50% of the leftover population would be dead within a month.

and we would be reduced to less than bronze age technology.

> Again, 8 out of 10. Too few to use the "toys." Too few to maintain them.

By "the remainder of the world" I guess you mean "the USA"?
Hopefully, the view from your Rapturing soul will prove to you that
there is a lot of "the world" outside your little borders ...

> Well, the U.S. and Europe would be crippled, leaving the operable military centers elsewhere. Biggest populations left in China and the Muslim world. India and Pakistan would destroy each other. This leaves Israel as the last opposition nuclear power. Russia is held together with twine at the moment, so I still give it to China.

One could say that you are being exceptionally racist there (harking back
to the "Yellow Peril" days?) but maybe you're just befuddled.

> Their history and reality make me racist? Ok... Would it be better if I said "the county of China" instead of the Chinese? Would that kill that particular strawman?

Shame. Where's your faith? You're supposed to be ready at all times!

> My faith is centered in reality and part of that is allowing others their faith as long as it doesn't attack others or affect laws.

[Nihil]

69. What an interesting response.

> I never said evangelicals and neither did the person I posted to.

Hmmm.
From the OP (yours):

>> The sudden crush of worshipers packing the small evangelical Shelter Rock
>> Church in Manhasset, N.Y. ...
+
>> Shelter Rock Church is an evangelical church that has prospered in the
>> wealthy community of Manhasset, N.Y.
+
>> In Seattle, the Mars Hill Church, one of the fastest-growing evangelical
>> churches in the country, ...
+
>> Like evangelical churches around the country, ...

The poster you replied to (.1) mentioned the "Rapture".
You (.3) stated that "8 out of 10 Americans would disappear" and
mentioned those "left behind".

I view that as pretty strong evidence that both you and the poster to whom you
replied were indeed talking about evangelicals ... the words "evangelical"
and "rapture" gave it away really.


> That should have been your first clue.

No but your post above is *definitely* a clue ...


> 8 out of 10 of everyone means everyone.

No, you are wrong. 8 out of 10 means 8/10 or 80%, not 10/10 or 100% = everyone.

In addition, I was querying your view that 80% hold the "rapture" viewpoint
(hence the "evangelical" point earlier) so, even if the "Rapture" was to take
place as believed, I think the numbers "going missing" would be far lower than
your 80% as there is no way that 80% of the population of the USA (or of any
country for that matter) believes in "the rapture".


> In this improbable scenario, our society would simply fail.

Although there is a risk of this, a lot depends on exactly which people
went missing. I can think of a lot of people who could go missing tomorrow
without making any negative impact on the well-being of society.


> Another 50% of the leftover population would be dead within a month.

Again, another figure pulled out of your nether regions.


> My faith is centered in reality

We will have to disagree on this one.
Faith is a personal thing so you are free to believe what you will.

FWIW, I see nothing whatsoever to redeem this particularly recent piece of
religious fiction - "the Rapture". It hasn't even got any ancient writings
or cultural tradition to support it, just a collection of writings from a
19th century evangelist who decided to re-write the Bible to suit his new
views of religion after he fell off his horse.

A few centuries earlier, such behaviour would have been called "heresy".
A century later, it would have been recognised as "mental illness".
Looks like he did it at just the right time for it to be called a new religion.

:shrug:

[gorfle]

2. I wonder if they are all "bitter"? n/t

[dbonds]

4. Bad times also help casinos.

[glowing]

8. And bars.

[glowing]

6. You know, a lot of these churches have stipulations that if you receive help or dontations,

attendance is "preferred". My step-son's mother is in a similar situation. My step-son and her attend the services and sunday school in trade for the cheaper living arrangement they've worked for her. At least my son has a safe environment; better than his previous arrangement. It was causing some concern for us for a while. We were contemplating heading back to court, but we ourselves, are financially strapped. And to tell you the truth, the momma could use a little church. We split the week.. and when she doesn't have her son, she had been getting into trouble, going out, driving drunk. Now, she's in a stable home, stable job, has a support system, and a boyfriend that's lasted longer than a month. Not all things church are bad... only when the leader leads the flock off a cliff.

[Aslanspal]

17. Eventhough not perfect Charity

Those who help the community, it will get out and people will come for motives and who really knows what they are.

Glad to hear about your family

I wish the article would have gone in depth about what you stated, I think you are right churches ..evangelical or other that can give out some help may prosper during this recession/depression. Obama must actually encourage food banks and shelter and I am open if
he helps churches do this.

[glowing]

20. In a more perfect world, the govt would have social networking similar to a church,

without the religion. There could be a network put in place to help with living expenses, job training/ placing, daycare services, and foods help. This crazy idea that govt shouldn't directly help the people living within the govt and being of the govt, shouldn't help in hard times. Of course, no system is perfect. At times there will be people who abuse the system. However, most people would use a system like this to become stabilized and move on. They would then become part of the tax base that adds to the system. The govt NOT having these social networks in place at this time is causing many, many families to go without home, food, or prospect of jobs. How do you look for a new job or even interview when you show up rumpled from sleeping in your car or stink from no shower or have no address or phone number that the employer can reach you at. AND why is it during times of recession/ depression we don't have social networking in place to keep people in their homes. It is much easier to help with food, electric, utilities, and mandatory rendering of the bank to take 3,6, 9 or 12 month deferment on a fixed 30yr loan, give a coupon off from paying the property tax or less property tax that year. Wouldn't it be a lot easier on the community and stabilization to have kept people in their homes and allowed for some social service programs to help out? We would have staved off much of this mess with programs like this in place.

[IndianaGreen]

7. Let us know the moment Jesus starts feeding the hungry and making mortgage payments

You might as well start praying to an Abba turd (fans of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, will know what I meant)

[glowing]

18. Actually, a lot of churches do try and help with these things. I know that a few churches

have put up families in my hotel when they need help. That's normally temporary until they can get them into an assisted living or subsidized living space. Not all churches are bad.

[IndianaGreen]

23. Like Mother Teresa, who raised millions of dollars

but chose to invest the money in expanding her religious order than in improving conditions for the poor in her care. The Church has always taken the side of the ruling classes against the poor. The many religious people that have work for, and oftentimes been killed, for their support of the poor are not representative of their religious hierarchy.

[cap]

38. counter example: Center for Human Development

Catholic organization associated with Saul Alinsky, the father of grass roots organization. Obama got his start there as a community organizer.

[Le Taz Hot]

58. Counter counter example: Knights of Columbus

Poured millions of dollars into hate legislation in California. Apparently there weren't any homeless or hungry people left in the world.

[Zynx]

49. That really is not true. That is not a universal rule.

In a great many cases in Latin America the Church was the center for political opposition.

[Zhade]

52. That's people doing good things, who would likely do good things without religion...

...not their alleged savior, if he even existed.

[glowing]

55. Most likely, but the funds come from organized religion and a system that is in place

to help those in need. Something our govt could actually do, without the church part.

[LanternWaste]

60. I imagine the corollary then is also true--

I imagine the corollary then is also true-- those who do bad things in the churches name would most likely do them (and have done them) were religion not in the picture.

[DavidDvorkin]

9. Fundie numbers are growing, mainline ones decreasing

That's what the study referred to in the article actually says.

[dbonds]

27. I hope to hell that is wrong. I'm ready for the post-christian age.

[prostock69]

28. You and me both! I'm ready for the Scientific-Reason Age n/t

[Phred42]

11. Great - just what we need - more insane Evangelicals pound their chests

[MilesColtrane]

15. Just in time for a presidential run from Winky Moosekiller in 2012.

"We'll be ginnin' up, and practicin' tha Saks Fith Avenue wrapped, homespun insanities now, so I'll be ready in four years. You betcha."

[Phred42]

16. Can you imagine the campaign: Saks For Jesus

[MilesColtrane]

24. Two chickens in every pot, an extreme makeover, and eternal salvation guaranteed!

[scytherius]

12. Yeah. Let me know how that works out for ya . . . bunch of idiots.

I mean, look what prayer to the Magic Man in the sky has done for mankind so far. *puke*

[SammyWinstonJack]

65. 'Magic Man in the sky...'

:evilgrin:

[BeyondGeography]

13. Retail religion...dopey consumers

[L0oniX]

14. Yea ...let them try to quit paying tithes and see how long they stay in those churches.

[Odin2005]

19. Religion = the opiate of the masses.

It's using the belief in a blissful afterlife to dull the pain instead of going after the cause of the pain.

[jwirr]

21. The evangelical church has nothing to offer in these time. We have

already seen what they offer since RR. However, churches could be of great worth in helping to organize local communities if this gets worse. While there is not a government office in every town, village or wards, there are churches. They could go a long ways in doing what my liberal church is doing by joining ONE and other groups that are working to get food production localized and such. If we look at history the churches in various crisis have done just that.

It has only been lately (since RR) that the churches have taken a political role in the nation. Until then they were often the social institution that drew people together.

I know I am going to get flamed but I am not talking about what churches teach - they are all different - I'm talking about their ability to unite communities that might otherwise just fall apart. I will admit that all too many churches today have their head in the sand and haven't the foggiest about what is going on in the economy, the environment, the oil problems and much more.

By the way, we have the most beautiful snow storm in the world going on outside my windows. Predicted to be 16 inches over the weekend.

[IndianaGreen]

25. Churches won't lift a finger to overthrow the ruling classes responsible for poverty

They are in cahoots with the elites, telling their sheep that justice will come in an afterlife.

[dbonds]

26. Thats because the religion was designed to make the oppressed content.

I'm not saying there isn't a real spirituality out there, but it isn't in organized religion.

[jwirr]

36. I was not talking about their spirituality. I was talking about them being

one of the few institutions in all communities that can be used to organize survival measures if it comes to that. I do agree with you that all too often they are used to oppress rather than help. I live in the county seat so we have government agencies but I grew up in a town that was miles from any government office. It was the church that helped in crisis times then, it could be again if we would take them back from the fundies like we have taken our government back from them.

[jwirr]

29. Yours might be - mine is not.

[izquierdista]

32. All hat and no cattle

Churches do what makes them look good and feel good, nothing more. They love to spout out the refrain "give a man a fish, he eats for a day; teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime", but they have NO intention of implementing it. That's why they love to dribble out $5 in food to a hungry family, but have no clue how to get the family breadwinner a paying job or decent housing. Once their little circle of followers exhausts its generosity, they shuffle the poor and hungry and homeless back onto the government, telling them that there is help to be had at the unemployment office and public housing.

But what can you expect from people who have the ultimate ulterior motive -- a reward in the afterlife. They are just doing a few token acts so that they can piously proclaim that they helped the poor, while at the same time they protest a new homeless shelter (because it would lower property values) and figure out new ways to offshore jobs to help their bottom line.

[prostock69]

30. I think a lot of non-Christians are worried the end of times is near

because things are looking so bad. How we forget how bad things have been throughout the history of man. Like this is the first time the shit has hit the perverbial fan. Now the Fundies are going to take advantage of this by indoctrinating these poeple with their dogma to grow their masses. The more mass you have the more power you can wield.

I am currently reading a very fascinating book called "When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern American Culture" by Paul Boyer. It explains why and how the prophecies were written in the bible. It also proved the old saying to be true: "The more times change the more things stay the same." People have been trying to predict the end of the world through the bible for over a thousand years! Every generation, many books have been written regarding the prophecies. Hey all you Fundies of the past! We are still here! You are wasting your life worrying about prophesies that 99% of all bible scholars have determined to have been written to reflect the times the writers were living in. Things were extremely bad in Rome in ancient times. There were wars, genocides, plagues, etc. Christians were trying to get their religion off the ground. The Jews were being persecuted. The pagan worshipers were opressing both Christians and Jews. But the bible said the righetous would not suffer. But they were and significantly. So a group of writes calles Apocalypsisist start writing reasons (evil and satan) for the chaos that was happening in their times. It was all man created hysteria, just like we have today; The history of how Judaism and Christianity came about is truly fascinating. However, if the Fundies actually knew a little something about the history of their precious bible and their religion, they probably wouldn't be Christians.

Alas, the rest of us sane, rational thinking people must sit back and watch the insanity insue, just like all the previous generations of non-believers have had to do as well.

[undeterred]

31. The Bush regime has actually tried to expedite the end of the world

-whether from a fundy Christian or a secular point of view.

[nebenaube]

42. Just like it was approximately a hundred years ago?

Just like it was approximately a hundred years ago? When the free markets failed? If that is that case, then maybe the Holocaust was the rapture, no... that's not correct, from every description I've heard, they are to be taken into the air in an instant so I guess Hiroshima and Nagasaki was! Isn't that what happens when one is ionized? I mean one would have to be vaporised (taken into the air) to become ionized yes? In which case everyone still here is left behind! Bwaahhahahhhhahhahahaha Stupid fools, I toss a shoe at you! :sarcasm:

[davidthegnome]

33. It's a shame they're going there for help

Of all places. But even personally right now, some times I catch myself wondering which will do for us first... global warming (most likely), nuclear war, or a completely devastated world economy. Every so often the world powers gather their armies and fight a massive war - with the current population and everything going on today... it is as if our many Nations are like a powder keg, all that needs to be done is to light a match and toss it in.

Sooner or later, some asshole is going to light that match.

Oh I wish I had faith in a loving Creator or life after death. As an agnostic though, I am uncertain of anything - except that I wouldn't go to an Evangelical church to find faith. Though as time goes on my fear of "the end of the world" is escalating. It seems almost inevitable.

[matcom]

34. "God is a concept, by which we measure our pain." - John Lennon

[IndianaGreen]

39. "You taunt us with disbelieving in God. We charge you with believing in him."

The great anarchist writer Mikhail Bakunin said this about the GAWD concept:

You taunt us with disbelieving in God. We charge you with believing in him. We do not condemn you for this We do not even indict you. We pity you. For the time of illusions is past. We cannot be deceived any longer.

Whom do we find under God's banner? Emperor, kings, the official and the officious world; our lords and our nobles; all the privileged poisons of Europe whose names are recorded in the Almana de Gotha; all the guinea pigs of the industrial, commercial and banking world; the patented professors of our universities; the civil service servants; the low and high police officers; the gendarmes; the gaolers; the headsman or hangman, not forgetting the priests, who are now the black police enslaving our souls to the State; the glorious generals, defenders of the public order; and lastly, the writers of the reptile Press.

This is God's army !

Whom do we find in the camp opposite? The army of revolt; the audacious donors of God and repudiators of all divine and authoritarian principles! These who are therefore, the believers in humanity, the asserters of human liberty.

You reproach us with being Atheists. We do not complain of this. We have no apology to offer. We admit we are. With what pride is allowed to frail individuals-who, like passing waves, rise only to disappear again in the universal ocean of the collective life--we pride ourselves on being Atheists. Atheism is Truth--or, rather the real basis of all Truths.

We do not stoop to consider practical consequences. We want Truth above everything. Truth for all!

God or Labor: The Two Camps

Mikhail Bakunin

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/bakunin/works/writings/ch09.htm

[IsItJustMe]

46. That's heavy. I got a brain hermia from reading it.

[Zhade]

53. Exactly. I don't hate believers anymore than I hate people afflicted with cancer.

NT!

[bikebloke]

35. The preachers can cerftainly use the extra money.

Prices have gone up on hookers, expensive booze & drugs, private jets and yachts.

[SammyWinstonJack]

66. !!!

:evilgrin:

[Ishoutandscream2]

37. "Prayer. The last refuge of a scoundrel."

[bread_and_roses]

40. First they put their faith in "the Market" - when that fails, in a literal God-Daddy

What a pathetic crew of fools. Praying for money. Calling faith a "product." Jesus H. Christ, as my Sainted Mother would say. Jesus was not a stockbroker, but you wouldn't know that from much of what these "evangelical" frauds preach.

I despise all religion, but if one holds a special place of contempt it is these "evangelicals," providing opiates for the masses while they service the Oligarchs. A hell's brew if ever there was one.

[Blue_Tires]

48. yeah, that "we have the greatest product in the world" line leapt out at me

cringeworthy...unless his church deals heroin under the table...

[Dukkha]

43. You're financially ruined, so you give away your last dollar to a greedy church

Do they ever think maybe their gullibility and fear-mongering manipulation destroyed their economy? Nope, just blame it all on the marrying gays.

[cambie]

44. Once there was a country based on Reason.

Long ago. It might as well have happened in ancient Greece for all the connection the people have with it now. Empty heads fill with a tangled ball of emotion and illusion, the people lose the strength to lead, and the country slides down the same old slope that the founders worked so hard to avoid.

[sarcasmo]

45. A sucker born every minute.

[ShortnFiery]

47. Organized Religon - The opiate of the masses. No more.

I stopped going to Mass a little more than a month ago. I volunteer and have friends who are experiencing difficult times over for dinner etc.

No, I can't go back ... at least in the near future. :(

[Zhade]

54. A sucker born-again every minute.

NT!

[KakistocracyHater]

50. just like in the ghettos

in hard times people get desperate. I hope they're not pushing that whole 'prosperity gospel' swindle....that would be truly awful. As for the 'rapture'-didn't you hear? The honeybees were the chosen ones, that's why they disappeared, no bodies found.:sarcasm:

[Zhade]

51. Desperate people always seek answers -- even when they're false.

It's a human thing.

[junior college]

56. Bad Times Draw Bigger Crowds to Churches...

....and maybe that it's Christmastime might have something to do with it

[Roland99]

57. Soooo...Obama's comment about people clinging to their religion was....

SPOT ON!!

[snooper2]

59. What a waste of time-

Time in a church would be better spent say, learning a second language?

[and-justice-for-all]

62. This economic meltdown is a blessing for churches...

it is exactly what they want.

[NoodleyAppendage]

63. Yes...pray. That will fix all your problems. Much better than being an agent of change.

Ahh...yes. Here we go.

My life is shitty, therefore I must appeal to a mythical cloud being to make it better. And, if for some reason my life doesn't get any better, then it was "gOD's will." But, if it does get better, then "gOD made it happen."

EVOLVE PEOPLE!

J

[meow2u3]

64. President-Elect Obama was right

When he said people turn to religion when they're suffering, he hit the nail on the head.

People do turn to their faith during hard times to seek spiritual comfort when they've been made uncomfortable materially. The converse is also true: many, but not all, people put religion on the back burner in times of plenty.

[4_TN_TITANS]

68. I've noticed, at least around here,

that most people really just use churches as a means of networking and making contacts to improve their material status.