History Buffs Rise Against Wal-Mart

[DainBramaged]

Source: washingtonpost.com

Like Civil War generals, the generals of modern commercial development are attracted to large open spaces along well-traveled roads, typically on the outskirts of a town or major population center. The former picked those sites for battlefields a century and a half ago; the latter like them today for big-box stores.

And once again, great armies are mustering on the Virginia Piedmont -- historians and preservationists on one side, big retail and developers on the other -- this time in cash-strapped Orange County, 60 miles south of the District, where Wal-Mart wants to build a supercenter directly opposite the Wilderness Battlefield.

There, in May 1864, 24,000 soldiers were killed or wounded as the first clash between Gen. Robert E. Lee and Gen. Ulysses S. Grant produced famously hellish combat in a burning thicket of scrub oak and spindly pine trees. The National Park Service owns 2,800 acres of the core battlefield, whose larger area extends across nearly 7,000 acres.

That land is mostly undeveloped, and to Wal-Mart, it looks like a prime retail location. The parcel where the company plans to build its 138,000-square-foot store and parking lot has long been zoned for commercial development but has little more than a small shopping plaza opposite a Sheetz gas station. There are also preliminary plans for a larger retail, office and residential complex, Wilderness Crossing, that would be built adjacent to the Wal-Mart, although no formal proposals have been submitted.



Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/26/AR2008122601620.html?wprss=rss_business

---

Fucking Wal*Mart


It's money that they love.

[robcon]

1. As long as it's not on the battlefield, let 'em build it. n/t

[DainBramaged]

2. Really, you support the right of Wal*Mart to sully the memories of the battlefield?

(sigh) DU, where being contrary and complete ignorant is an art form.

I didn't read your reply robcon, I figured by now you would have replied, so I'm waiting.

[Trajan]

4. I am not sure what you mean ....

Either they are ON the battlefield, or they are not ....

If they are not, then what is the objection to general development ? ... Bring close to a battlefield ?

I despise Walmart, and I would prefer ANY other store in it's place, but that is a different question ...

[DainBramaged]

6. Did you read the entire article? The landscape hasn't changed in 150 years

and now, a Wal*Mart appears directly across from the battlefield? Aren't there enough fucking Waly*Marts in the world? And why no build it closer to the community nearby that needs it rather than directly across from hallowed ground?

I swear, DU has gone nuts.

[Trajan]

8. Look ... Battlefields have boundaries ....

I stated that I have no objection to developing land OUTSIDE those boundaries ....

OUTSIDE ....

Do YOU understand ?

OUTSIDE OF THE FUCKING BOUNDARIES !

I am against all Wal-Mart stores ....

Do YOU understand ?

I AM AGAINST BUILDING WAL MART STORES ! ......

I dont care if the plot is the middle of the desert, the top of K2, or on the Mares of the Moon ...

I am AGAINST building WalMart stores ...

AGAINST Building them ...

Is this getting through ?

When it comes to National Battlefields and other national monuments; lines are drawn across the landscape, and development is allowed on one side of that line, and NOT allowed on the other side ...

That is public policy ... Whether such land OUTSIDE of a national battlefield is allowed to be developed is ONE QUESTION, irrespective of which particular big-box store is interested in building there ....

Whether WalMart builds there, or anywhere else, is A DIFFERENT QUESTION, and has nothing to do with building near, around, or facing a defined National Battlefield Monument ....

DIVIDE THE QUESTIONS, and stop trying to muddy the waters by confuting one with the other ....

Did I mention I am AGAINST building any more WalMarts here, there, or anywhere else ? .... Is THIS clear to you ?????????

?????????????

[DainBramaged]

9. See post #7, and I am NOT trying to muddy the waters, Wal*Mart is scum

and their even considering to open a store within the park boundaries makes me even madder than you are at me, but that doesn't preclude the fact that IF YOU ARE AGAINST WAL*MART, YOU are AGAINST WAL*MART (I can yell too), NO exceptions.

[treestar]

71. You are muddying the waters. You are against building Wal-Marts, period

so it makes no difference whatsoever where, near a battlefield or not.

Outside the battlefield, if private development is allowed, it's not discriminatory based on what it is.

Are you saying building a Sears or some other store or business would be acceptable on that same spot, on on, but next to the battlefield? Or nothing? In which case, where does the battlefield end?

[BlueJazz]

32. Why do you want Wal-Mart to build on the Battlefield?

[Trajan]

55. I want you to read the post you replied to ...

And copy and paste the part where I said I wanted Wal Mart to build a store on a battlefield ....

I will wait here ....

Go ahead ... do it ....

[BlueJazz]

61. OK...

I stated that I have no objection to developing land INSIDE those boundaries ....

INSIDE ....

Do YOU understand ?

INSIDE OF THE FUCKING BOUNDARIES !

I am for all Wal-Mart stores ....

Do YOU understand ?

I AM FOR BUILDING WAL MART STORES ! ......

I dont care if the plot is the middle of the Park, the top of K2, or on the Mares of the Moon ...

I am FOR building WalMart stores ...

FOR Building them ...

Is this getting through ?



I was kidding you in my Post...It always cracks me up when a Poster will say something and then,,, other posters seem to read the post in the exact opposite way that the OP had intended. :)

After you first posted, I was scratching my head wondering.."Did anybody even READ his post ???"

[Trajan]

64. LMFAO ....

OK .... That cracked me up ....

You rawk ....

Happy New Year ....

[dysfunctional press]

73. it wasn't walmart that zoned the property as commercial.

obviously, the town wanted the property developed.

[Two Americas]

34. no they don't

Battlefields don't really "have boundaries" - they are not amusement parks.

No reason we cannot preserve the setting for these important battles, with an adequate buffer zone. we are not talking about some significant amount of land denied to the developers.

[Trajan]

56. So .... Are you stating that no battlefields have legal boundaries

And that ALL possible locations where past battles have taken place are battlefields, and ALL such places should NEVER be developed ?

I dont live there, in fact: I live NOWHERE near the South, and so perhaps I have no reason to 'barge in' with my Yankee opinion ....

Nevertheless: National Battlefields ARE official designations, and DO have established boundaries, like other National Monuments, even if the actual 'battlefield' extends into nearby areas NOT included in the designated area ..... If one claims the area incorporated into a specific battlefield boundary is NOT the correct size or configuration, then THAT is one specific issue ..... and THAT issue has nothing to do specifically with whether a 'Wal Mart' wants to build there, or a Dairy Queen wants to build there ....

[Two Americas]

58. don't get angry

We have a little misunderstanding here. Let's clear it up.

You - "Are you stating that no battlefields have legal boundaries?"

I didn't say that, but I would say that, yes. The only legal boundaries are the boundaries set by states or the feds for parks associated with some of the battlefields.

Let's look at Gettysburg, as an example of the difficulties involved in setting a boundary around a battlefield. The largest engagements happened south of town on Cemetery Ridge, with the assaults by Longstreet and Pickett on the 2nd and 3rd days of the battle. That field is preserved today by the National Park Service.

However, there were other important encounters that were part of the battle - Buford's stand on the first day 3 miles west of town, the arrival on the run of the Iron Brigade to save the Union position at the last minute, with their commander John Reynolds leading them, and then Reynolds being dramatically shot from his horse and killed in the midst of the action. That fighting is what gave the Union the high ground and favorable tactical position, and that led to the eventual victory. I see that as the decision that led to the skirmish that started the fighting that won the day, and winning that day led to winning the battle, and winning the battle won the war.

Later that day Ewell's corps arrived and attacked the other flank of the Union troops, coming in from the northeast and fighting on the north and east side of town. This was a significant engagement, as well. Union general Hancock arrived, rallied the beleaguered Union troops and situated them on Culp's Hill and Cemetery Hill in good defensive positions.

The fighting went on in the town, and also behind, to the east of Cemetery Ridge there was a very important cavalry engagement between the troops of Custer and Jeb Stuart.

This does not cover other minor skirmishes and cavalry actions that took place throughout the area.

I would like to see the whole scene preserved, and I think that could be justified. But where the "boundary" is exactly - hard to say.

You - "And that ALL possible locations where past battles have taken place are battlefields, and ALL such places should NEVER be developed?"

That is a good idea, I think, yes. Why not, do you think?

You - "If one claims the area incorporated into a specific battlefield boundary is NOT the correct size or configuration, then THAT is one specific issue ..... and THAT issue has nothing to do specifically with whether a 'Wal Mart' wants to build there, or a Dairy Queen wants to build there ...."

That is the issue, yes. WalMart would have an extreme negative impact, but otherwise you are correct.

[dysfunctional press]

74. why did the community zone the property as commercial unless they wanted it developed?

:shrug:

[Arkansas Granny]

77. That's a very good point. Someone will build there eventually, whether

it be WalMart, a mall or an amusement park. The community apparently doesn't mind having the property developed.

[starroute]

7. The park does not include the complete battlefield

Did you read the story? The park is 2800 acres, the full battlefield site 7000 acres. And it does sound as though the proposed Wal-Mart site is part of it.

[Recursion]

18. The Wilderness, Cold Harbor, and Petersburg aren't "normal" battlefields

This wasn't the Antietam/Bull Run/Shiloh set-battle stuff; the battles in both Piedmont campaigns were closer to World War I than to Gettysburg. They didn't happen just in one place on one day; the fighting stretched for weeks at a time over long stretches of wilderness (hence the name).

Opposing Wal Mart moving in has several pluses:

1. NoVa is rapidly becoming entirely paved over as it is
2. There is still a lot of archaeological and historical information not yet found
3. There are still remains of US and CS soldiers out in those woods

On a larger point, Virginians need to learn how to live within their geographical means. People should not be commuting from Haymarket, Leesburg, or Fredricksburg to DC.

[Two Americas]

35. good point

The Battle of the Wilderness initiated 30 days of continual fighting over a great area.

The fighting was savage, the courage difficult to imagine, the sacrifices by the men horrific. I think we should remember them. I think they "own" that ground.

People need to stand where they stood, walk where they walked, see what they saw and remember them, honor their sacrifice, and reflect on the horror of war, lest we too quickly support war in the future.

If this does not matter, I am not sure what does. As you say, the rampant development and the values that represents are tawdry and meaningless by comparison.

[Recursion]

40. I lived in an old house in Washington, VA

...that still had bullet holes in the porch from I think the 2nd Wilderness battle.

I'm not going to say I literally believe in ghosts, but... let the dead rest in peace.

[Two Americas]

44. looking at the map

Looking at the Google map, subdivisions are encroaching from all directions. I notice that the streets in the subdivisions are named for Generals from the battle - Pickett, Ewell, Hill, Lee, Warren etc.

The bullet holes in that house of yours may have happened in mid July, 1863, as George A. Custer's Michigan Brigade of cavalry pursued and harassed Longstreet's Corps, which was retreating from the Battle of Gettysburg.

In July, 1862, there were some Union troops camped near there, and there may have been minor skirmishes with Confederate cavalry.

[Recursion]

47. The local historical society couldn't say

People don't get that from the summer of 1862 to the fall of 1863, the Virginia Piedmont was roughly something like Somalia is today. We learn about the "big" battles in high school, but the story of Kansas/Missouri is more apt for that place and time (VA was never fully "sold" on secession, as witnessed by the fact that about a 3rd of it meta-seceded).

The US has a strange idea of civil wars: we had a civil war that was fought by uniformed armies from essentially contiguous sections of the country with largely unanimous local support. As I'm sure all of you know, it is impossible to stress how unusual that is in a civil war, historically. Piedmont VA, Western Maryland, and southern PA are the only exceptions to that rule of thumb, and I think we would do well to keep as many of those battlefields untouched as we can.

[Two Americas]

52. that is a really good insight

That is a great insight about civil wars. In Virginia there were irregulars operating - Mosby's Raiders for example. The road through Washington saw a lot of troop movement. Confederate cavalry was always on the prowl, and later in the war Union cavalry, as well. Minor skirmishes and guerrilla actions happened almost everywhere in Virginia.

[Recursion]

54. Have you ever driven US 211?

It runs from US 29 about 30 miles north of Charlottesville over the Blue Ridge and Skyline, through Luray, into New Market.

It's an astounding drive on its own (I'm actually working on a website to record it), but its civil war history is breathtaking. Literally about once every mile there is a plaque or monument or memorial to this or that cavalry skirmish -- nearly all were cavalry. This was like Rommel's Africa campaign, only the story is as far as I can tell largely untold. Everything from Jackson's original Shenandoah campaign (still a textbook campaign) to Ewell's last gasp defence of the then-irrelevant western approaches to the Piedmont. This was desperate, brutal fighting, and these sites speak to how disproportionate a cost Virginia paid in this war. (I imagine Robert E. Lee is not popular on this site but he was a man I admire greatly, and his warnings about the cost Virginia would pay in a civil war were sadly prescient.)

These cavalry actions are hard to imagine today; again my comparison is Somalia. My own family were horse-traders in VA/WV and "had to whistle 'Yankee Doodle' and 'Dixie' with equal enthusiasm", as my great-grandfather used to say. This was bloody, no-holds-barred insurgency and I wish this aspect of the civil war were more fully covered in our curricula along with the "glorious" set-piece battles.

[Two Americas]

57. I think that is really great

Yes, I have been through that area, and I think you are right - the story of the campaigns there is largely untold. This is a great project and it is very inspiring that you are digging in and seeing the history there. Jackson's "foot cavalry" campaigns were amazing. Sheridan ran a brutal scorched earth campaign through there at the end. The destruction and human misery were terrible. Ewell is not as well known as he should be. There is much to admire about Lee, in my opinion.

A little off-topic, but have you ever had an opportunity to see the photographs of O. Winston Link of that area?

[Recursion]

59. I'm a Roanoker :)

I've seen a lot of Link's stuff. It's incredible. I've seen pretty much all of the USA and the Shenandoah is my favorite part; Link explains why.

[Two Americas]

62. yes

The railroad was the attraction that spurred my first visit. My next visit - getting inspired now, maybe this coming year - I want to visit the fruit growers and see some of the old southern heirloom apple varieties.

After the Civil War, maybe we should have rebuilt Virginia and then turned the whole state into a national park. Such a beautiful and historic area, such terrible poverty for so long, and now being gentrified and Yank-ified.

[Recursion]

43. Oh, and let me re-stress a point

There are still, in the woods near Warrenton, Leesburg, etc., unburied remains of US and CS soldiers. These grounds are, in my mind, graveyards.

[dysfunctional press]

75. "sully the memories of the battlefield..."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

i'm pretty sure that everyone who remembers the battle first-hand is dead.

war is stupid, and time marches on...put up a plaque, and be done with it. :eyes: sheesh...

[DainBramaged]

80. Well I guess this discussion isn't for you non-nostalgic thread wreckers then.

[dysfunctional press]

83. you'r enostalgic for the fucking CIVIL WAR???

:spray: :rofl: :spray: :rofl:

[boomerbust]

3. NO

No to Wallyworld

[Fridays Child]

5. I wonder if there's a WalMart Supercenter across from Pea Ridge.

Or does the company prefer to shit just a little bit farther away from where it lives?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

15. There isn't

Nor is there a WalMart near any of the places there was fighting or occupation in Fayetteville AR.

There's no way I would want to build a store or anything near one of those battlefields--as was said, the location of the fighting isn't always in bounds of a battle site park. There's an atmosphere, a feeling around some of those battlefields that isn't inviting for retail shopping. I've been to Pea Ridge once and don't plan to go again--very strange vibes and feelings to be found there.

[Recursion]

20. In fairness, there's a problem with Virginia

Imagine a quadrilateral bounded by DC, Leesburg, Haymarket, and Richmond. This area has the fastest population growth in the state and some of the fastest growth in the country. Also, if you pick any point in that area, it probably had at least a skirmish fought there at some point in the civil war (Lee wrote about the devastation of the state by the physical violence of combat and of large numbers of men and wagons constantly moving -- what we think of today as a green forest over low hills was a muddy, scorched, plowed up giant graveyard.)

But the point is, people keep moving there, and they need to buy crap. I get that, and I get that Wal~Mart is really good at selling people crap. I'd just like to see them put it somewhere else.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

26. Pea Ridge is in the fastest growing area in Arkansas

"progress" is creeping towards the battlefield on US 62.

Not a wise idea to disturb battlegrounds, I feel. But I'm sensitive that way.

[Fridays Child]

65. You're certainly right about the atmosphere at Pea Ridge.

I've never been so profoundly moved by a CW site. It was a bone-crushing feeling of anguish and grief.

[sofa king]

10. Something to keep in mind.

Chancellorsville's outlines are clearly delineated by the road along which Jackson made his famous march. Spotsylvania's by the still-exant trench lines along the "mule shoe." But the Wilderness' outlines, which overlap with both of those battlefields, will never be exactly known. It was an encounter battle fought on terrain which was scarcely even mapped at the time, and officers on both sides hardly knew their own dispositions, much less that of the enemy. It certainly stretched over many miles--over ten, if you include Anderson's retrograde movement all the way to Spotsylvania (because the forest was on fire and there was no place safe to rest his troops).

Furthermore, the intersection of the "town" of Wilderness is already a hideous tumor of gas stations and outlets and their parking lots and vulturous war-relic shops, most of them called "Battlefield" something-or-other, as is just about everything else from Fredericksburg to that place.

You can see the Wilderness best yourself by walking into the most tangled scrubby land you can find on a hot day, maybe in your own back yard, and imagining it roaring with sound, reeking of gunpowder, wood smoke, feces and blood, obscured by smoke and tangled thorn-bushes, on fire, and with skeletons from the previous year's Chancellorsville battle still in uniform lying about among the fresh dead and screaming, immolating wounded.

I dislike Wal-Mart as much as anyone else here, and I have no problem with opposing Wal-Mart on historical grounds simply to wipe their eye. But let's be honest with ourselves and realize that the real Wilderness battlefield disappeared as soon as the fires burned out and the troops moved South.

[DainBramaged]

11. Beautiful description, but why surrender everything to these stores?

When do we draw the line and say, enough? And that is the point here, enough.

[sofa king]

12. I'm with you all the way on that.

Part of what I was trying to say above is that any site in the area is likely to intrude on part of one of those battles and the innumerable skirmishes fought along the Rappahanock and Rapidan rivers.

It's obvious by now that the concerns of Orange County's (and Spotsylvania County's) small-business owners will go completely unheeded, as they always are when Wal-Mart comes to town. Maybe the combination of that concern and historical sentiment will do the job--it kept Disney and Formula One Racing out of Brandy Station.

But what I really want to point out is that preservation of the ground, however hallowed, does no real justice to the actual event if the visitors fail to acknowledge the most horrific aspects of war. I love battlefields and I tolerate battlefield reenactors, but neither one is more than a pale shadow of the actual event.

[Two Americas]

36. maybe

Wandering the woods there for hours, I found trenches and impromptu rock walls the troops had made still surviving. The area is not that large, nor that poorly defined that it cannot be set aside.

Just my opinion, and your point is well taken, and your description of the battle very good.

[louis-t]

13. Walmart is sooo "pro-America", aren't they?

I could just scream.

[DainBramaged]

14. They must think that they can siphon some business from visitors to the Battlefield

that can be their only reason for building there.


They have no concern for tradition or respect for America, they are a money making machine, America be damned.

[Recursion]

19. Doubtful; it's not a very visited battlefield

The entire Piedmont is losing its soul and becoming a long, sidewalkless strech of Greater Fairfax County. You even find it stretching into the northern neck :(

[Two Americas]

37. sadly

Sadly, very few are interested.

I can remember when I was in Fredericksburg, looking for the hill where Lee's HQ were located during the battle named for the town. None of the locals knew what I was talking about. Then I noticed a sign for a new sub-divisison - "Lee's Hill - from $120,000" The area had been developed. One would think that people who lived there would make the connection.

[GinaMaria]

16. I don't know much about this battleground site

Do you know if there are re-enactments or if people follow the paths to experience the event? I ask because I wonder if a store (any store) would be in view and maybe take away from the experience? I have a film maker friend who films Civil War re-enactments to use for documentary footage. I was thinking about him filming with a Wal-mart in the scenery. IIRC, some of the Lincoln sites in Illinois have shops (small ones, postcards etc), but the outside looks like something that would fit into the time period. So it makes more sense for those going to experience history. This would be tough for a Wal-mart to do given their size, but could be done with zoning etc. (certain communities have rules for historic preservation) to keep any retailer from distracting from the historical site.

I could see value in a small museum that displays artifacts from the battle and maybe shows a documentary of the battle ;-) or a gift shop where people can purchase books, DVDs and other items related to the reason they go to this site in the first place. There may be a way to introduce retail here without taking away from the site's meaning in history.

[Two Americas]

33. the Wilderness

Two important battles, a year apart, both of them turning points in the war were fought in that area. I have walked it a few times, spent many hours there. You come across trenches the troops had dug and rock walls they piled up for defense here and there. Last time I was there it was still pastoral and remote. The battles were unusual in that they were fought in dense woods. Lee attacked the Union troops there because the woods negated the superior numbers of the Union forces. The fighting was close and savage. The woods were ignited, and many wounded soldiers were unable to escape and were burned alive.

Hooker led the Union troops in the Battle of Chancellorsville, and Grant in the Battle of the Wilderness. Lee led the Confederate troops. Stonewall Jackson was killed at Chancellorsville and Lee's victory there led to his invasion of Pennsylvania and the Battle of Gettysburg. Chancellorsville represented Lee's last dramatic strategic victory, and the Wilderness represented the first time that the Army of the Potomac had not retreated after a battle in Virginia. Many Union soldiers saw Grant's decision to press on to Spotsylvania after the battle as the turning point in the war. The two battles bracket Gettysburg and perhaps the three of them together make up the turning point. At Chancellorsville, Lee divided his army, attacked from two directions and completely flanked, routed and demoralized the Union army and sent them into retreat. At Gettysburg, the Union army successfully stopped Lee's offensive and invasion. At the Wilderness, Lee executed his last great daring flanking move, and while it was successful, Grant refused to retreat or be beaten and pressed on from there to the end of the war, never retreating after that.

The Battle of Chancellorsville is the setting for Stephen Crane's "The Red Badge of Courage."

Important battlefield. We should not lose it.

Battle of Chancellorsville
Date: May 1-4, 1863

Location: Virginia
Confederate Commander: Robert E. Lee
Union Commander: Joseph Hooker
Confederate Forces Engaged: 60,892
Union Forces Engaged: 133,868
Winner: Confederacy
Casualties: 30,099 (17,278 Union and 12,821 Confederate)

Morale in the Federal Army of the Potomac rose with the appointment of Joseph Hooker to command. Hooker reorganized the army and formed a cavalry corps. He wanted to strike at Lee's army while a sizable portion was detached under Longstreet in the Suffolk area. The Federal commander left a substantial force at Fredericksburg to tie Lee to the hills where Burnside had been defeated. Another Union force disappeared westward, crossed the Rapidan and Rappahannock rivers, and converged on Fredericksburg from the west. The Federal cavalry would open the campaign with a raid on Lee's line of communications with the Confederate capital at Richmond. Convinced that Lee would have to retreat, Hooker trusted that his troops could defeat the Confederates as they tried to escape his trap.

...

As the Federal army converged on Chancellorsville, General Hooker expected Lee to retreat from his forces, which totaled nearly 115,000. Although heavily outnumbered with just under 60,000 troops - Lee had no intention of retreating. The Confederate commander divided his army: one part remained to guard Fredericksburg, while the other raced west to meet Hooker's advance. When the van of Hooker's column clashed with the Confederates' on May 1, Hooker pulled his troops back to Chancellorsville, a lone tavern at a crossroads in a dense wood known locally as The Wilderness. Here Hooker took up a defensive line, hoping Lee's need to carry out an uncoordinated attack through the dense undergrowth would leave the Confederate forces disorganized and vulnerable.
...

Chancellorsville is considered Lee's greatest victory, although the Confederate commander's daring and skill met little resistance from the inept generalship of Joseph Hooker. Using cunning, and dividing their forces repeatedly, the massively outnumbered Confederates drove the Federal army from the battlefield. The cost had been frightful. The Confederates suffered 14,000 casualties, while inflicting 17,000. Perhaps the most damaging loss to the Confederacy was the death of Lee's "right arm," Stonewall Jackson, who died of pneumonia on May 10 while recuperating from his wounds.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/chancellorsvillebattledescrpt.htm

Battle of The Wilderness
Date: May 5-7, 1864

Location: Virginia
Confederate Commander: Robert E. Lee
Union Commander: Ulysses S. Grant
Confederate Forces Engaged: 61,025
Union Forces Engaged: 101,895
Winner: Inconclusive
Casualties: 25,416 (17,666 Union and 7,750 Confederate)

The Army of the Potomac crossed the Rappahannock on 4 May but was forced to stop in the Wilderness to wait for the supply train to catch up. That afternoon Hancock's 11 Corps bivouacked at Chancellorsville, Warren's V Corps was at Old Wilderness Tavern, and the cavalry divisions of Gregg and J. H. Wilson were forward at Piney Branch Church and Parker's Store, respectively. The Federals had detected some enemy activity along the road from Orange C.H. Lee, who had anticipated Grant's movement and had resolved to hit the Federals while they were in the difficult Wilderness terrain, had Ewell's corps on the Orange Turnpike, and A. P. Hill (minus R. H. Anderson's division) on the Plank Road. The head of Ewell's column was at Locust Grove, little more than three miles from Warren, while A. P. Hill was but slightly more distant from J. H. Wilson. Yet neither army seemed aware of the other's proximity. Longstreet's corps had been at Mechanicsville, and Stuart's cavalry at Fredericksburg; both were moving in to join the rest of the Army of Northern Va. R.H. Anderson's division (A. P. Hill) was near Orange C.H.

At 6 P.m. 4 May Grant issued orders to continue the march at 5 o'clock the next morning through the Wilderness to the southeast. Burnside's IX Corps had also been ordered up from its previous mission of guarding the Orange and Alexandria R. R. Sedgwick's VI Corps was just across the Rappahannock. The stage was set.

...

After dark Grant's forces withdrew and both armies maneuvered toward their next encounter at Spotsylvania, 7-20 May '64. The Federals lost an estimated 17,666 out of 101,895 (exclusive of cavalry) engaged; of these, 2,246 were killed and 12,073 wounded. Generals Wadsworth and Alexander Hays were killed, Getty and Carroll wounded, and Shaler and Seymour captured. Confederate effective strength is estimated at 61,025. Although there are no complete casualty reports, Livermore estimates that the Confederates lost a total of 7,750. Gens. Jenkins and J. M. Jones were killed, Stafford mortally wounded, Longstreet, Pegram, Hunter, and Benning were wounded.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/wilderness.htm

[DainBramaged]

41. Here

[Two Americas]

45. ah thanks DainBramaged

Very good.

Doubling the size of the park would be easy enough, and would protect and reserve the ground.

The town of Gettysburg has done a fairly good job of separating development areas from the field, I think, and preserved an area as large or larger. It can be done.

A WalMart right on top of the battlefield is a very bad idea, in my opinion.

[DainBramaged]

48. Your knowledge about the Civil War is fascinating

Years back, my beautiful Daughter did a massive project on the Civil War for Anthropology in High School. I still have all of the books she bought, Ken Burns Civil War videos, and watching still upsets me. A terrible time in our Nation, blood spilled for the abolition of slavery. I wish it had gone to a diplomatic solution.

[Two Americas]

53. enormous tragedy

Those photos from the Burn's project were from plates from the studios of a handful of pioneers in photography, the first photographs that the general public at that time had ever seen. The images were so horrific, that photography itself fell into disfavor after the war. Most of Mathew Brady's plates were lost, as there was no interest. People had seen enough.

[GinaMaria]

67. I agree

Thank you both for sharing your knowledge. That was amazing. Wish you two had been my history teachers. I might have retained something ;-)

[Libertas1776]

17. Sigh

Nothing is sacred anymore.:(

[8 track mind]

21. nothing is sacred to these corporate (sp) fucks. n/t

[DainBramaged]

22. I wonder when Wal*Mart will try to open in sight of the Vietnam Memorial

That will be a triumph of retail chutzpah.


(LONG time since I had a thread on the front page, LONG time).

[w4rma]

23. If Orange County is cash-strapped they'll be more cash-strapped after Wal-Mart runs off the other

businesses.

[S_E_Fudd]

24. Not the first time they have tried this...

In the mid 1990's they tried t build adjacent to Ferry Farm in Fredericksburg. Ferry Farm of course, is George Washington's boyhood home.

After a fierce fight they finally moved to a site down the road.

This is within site of Ellwood manor. They need to move on down the road...and the site needs to be rezoned small commercial

[tclambert]

29. Next up: Wal-Mart Gettysburg.

Pickett's Charge went right through Women's Lingerie. The fight for Little Round Top was up in the Electronics section. And the elderly greeter at the door IS Robert E. Lee.

[RetiredTrotskyite]

25. Wal-Mart Is Beyond Despicable!

I can believe, though that they wouldn't give a damn where they build, even a historic battleground. I mean if human remains may be out there (and probably are, given a battle took place there), building there is wrong unless the bodies were respectfully to some sort of graveyard--good luck with Wla-mart being willing to help with something like that. Wal-Mart only cares about the money it can make.

I know there may be a need for some sort of influx of cash, but by driving out smaller businesses, I can't see Wal-Mart being a help in that regard. I hope that the people of Chancellorsville can keep them out, or failing that, keep them from impinging on the battlefield area.

[BrklynLiberal]

27. Any area like this that lets a WalMart open is committing retail suicide.

All the other small businesses will soon be gone, and there will be nothing left but WalMart...who will have demanded tax breaks in
advance, so the tax base will disappear. Eventually, as all the small stores disappear, all the young people looking for decent jobs will leave, and right after that the WalMart will close. In the end, there will be nothing but empty buildings and the memories of those who can remember when there was still a town there.
I am not even going to go into detail about the low wages they pay, and the lack of health benefits to employees...which will lead to a strain on the infrastructure and the hospital emergency rooms, food stamp and welfare rolls, as the people who come there to work start to use up the funds for these services.

[DainBramaged]

28. And each store (according to a 2006 report) costs the community

about $420,000 a year in housing subsidies, food stamps, health care, and other services because the employees are paid so poorly.

[BrklynLiberal]

69. Wow. And that figure is probably higher now..

[tclambert]

30. Hey, Klaatu, could you let Gort wipe out the Wal-Marts?

Would that satisfy the other civilizations that humans are worthy of survival?

"Why, yes, it would. Gort, Wal-Mart barrada yesto."

[benld74]

31. ATypical Walmart Business Practices,,,

FInd an area that has little, sell itself and all its 'glory' to the community. The backlash begins,, Walmart retreats, the community says 'Wait a mimute, what can we do to make you change your mind?' Walmart says, tax subsidies, infrastructure improvements, sewer improvements roads etc. They NEED ALL the improvements because the areas they choose have NOTHING and they WILL NOT INVEST ANY of their own money into the venture. All it is is perceived investment by the community

[DainBramaged]

38. Another great link

http://www.civilwar.org/walmart08/

[Two Americas]

49. from the site...

From The Civil War Preservation Trust website -

Thirty acres of Civil War battlefield land are destroyed every day.

These battlefields are part of our national heritage; scenes of struggle and sacrifice where American soldiers lost their lives. CWPT is working to preserve these “hallowed grounds,” as Abraham Lincoln called them, so that future generations can learn from them and can learn to appreciate their hard-won freedom.


Common Questions on Battlefield Preservation:

Q: Haven’t all of the Civil War battlefields been saved already?

A: Actually, only about 20 percent of the actual land upon which the Civil War was fought is currently preserved either by the CWPT or in national, state or local parks – all of the rest of that hallowed ground is either unprotected or has already been destroyed. We are racing the developers to save what is left. Find out about our latest preservation effort.

Q: How much hallowed ground has already been lost?

A: According to a study done by the U.S. Congress, fully 20 percent of the hallowed ground of the Civil War has already been destroyed forever, covered by roads, housing developments and other inappropriate development. Battlefields such as Chantilly, in Virginia, Murfreesborough in Tennessee, and the battles around Atlanta in Georgia are gone forever. See List of Lost Sites

Q: How quickly are we losing key battlefield sites?

A: At current rates of development and with rapidly increasing land prices, our nation loses approximately one acre of hallowed ground every hour. We calculate that the fate of the remaining unprotected ground will be determined within the next five to fifteen years, depending on its location.

[Two Americas]

51. why save battlefields?

From the The Civil War Preservation Trust website -

Why Protect Battlefields?

The American Civil War of 1861-1865 changed many things about the United States. In all, more than 10,000 battles and skirmishes were fought across the country from Virginia to Colorado, from Florida to Minnesota during the Civil War. A 1993 Congressional Study determined that 384 of these battles were highly significant influences on the course of our nation’s history. More than 70 of these battlefields have already been lost forever and fewer than 15% have been protected. In between, lie vulnerable sites, places where American soldiers gave their lives fighting for their visions of freedom, places that are now threatened by bulldozers and backhoes. Those soldiers who sacrificed their lives, those American veterans, deserve our recognition and thanks. The battlegrounds they fought over and died on should be protected for all of us to appreciate and lay honor to their struggles. How can we, in good conscience, pave this land into oblivion?

Why protect Civil War battlefields? Because they define us as a nation. Battlefields are nonrenewable resources. A shopping mall or townhouse development can be built practically anywhere. A historic battlefield cannot. Battlefields are resources that require no costly infrastructure and, unlike many corporations, once preserved they become permanent resources. They can be valuable to the communities where they are located in many ways. Not only do they provide a roots-tangible link to the community’s past, but they provide an opportunity to attract visitors. Battlefields also increase the quality of life for a community, especially important in this age of urban sprawl.

http://www.civilwar.org/landpreservation/l_whyprotect.htm

[Recursion]

60. A-F**king-men NT

[DainBramaged]

39. Satellite images of regional Wal*Marts (this is a great page)

http://www.civilwar.org/walmart08/maps/satelliteimages.htm

[DainBramaged]

42. Wal-Mart Subsidy Report for Virginia

http://www.walmartsubsidywatch.org/state_detail.html?state=VA


Subsidies received by Wal-Mart
There are no centralized databases of economic development subsidies, but Good Jobs First found 4 deals worth a total of about $4.3 million in Virginia:

Good Jobs First has compiled data on Wal-Mart subsidies in the following cities
Gordonsville, VA : $500,000
Mount Crawford, VA : $2.5 million
Sutherland, VA : $700,000
Williamsburg (James City), VA : more than $578,000


Hidden taxpayer costs
Many Wal-Mart workers are ineligible for health coverage from their employer or choose not to purchase what is available, because it is too expensive or too limited in scope. These workers often turn to taxpayer-funded health programs such as Medicaid. Virginia among those states that have not disclosed data on the employers with the most workers or their dependents enrolled in such programs.

For an estimate of how much Wal-Mart is costing the state of VA for taxpayer-funded healthcare, see http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/feature/healthcrisis/map.html#VA

Property Tax Appeals
In the course of researching our report Rolling Back Property Tax Payments , Good Jobs First learned of property tax assessment appeals at the following Wal-Mart locations in Virginia:
Culpeper, VA : $6,810
Williamsburg, VA

[Two Americas]

46. National Trust for Historic Preservation Call to Action

Wal-Mart Superstore Threatens Wilderness Battlefield

Plans for a Wal-Mart Supercenter within sight of one of the most significant Civil War battle sites in our nation have been submitted for approval in Orange County, Virginia. This 145,000-square foot store is proposed just one-quarter mile from the main entrance to the National Park which honors the sacrifice of the Civil War combatants who fought and died at Wilderness Battlefield in May 1864.

Your help is needed to save Wilderness Battlefield!

As part of a growing coalition, the National Trust for Historic Preservation strongly opposes intensive commercial development at this historic site, located at the intersection of Route 20 and Route 3, because it would degrade the rural setting for the battlefield, promote commercial sprawl, and drastically increase traffic through the heart of the National Park.

In fact, “big-box” traffic congestion here would dramatically increase pressure to widen Route 20 from two to four lanes through the battlefield and National Park a fatal mistake strongly opposed by preservationists. Route 20 is the historic Orange Turnpike, the scene of fierce fighting during the battle. In addition, construction of a Wal-Mart would likely lead to additional retail development along this corridor, including three additional “big-box” stores already in the works.

Wilderness Battlefield is one of our nation’s most significant Civil War battlefields.

More than 2,700 acres of the battlefield are preserved as part of the Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania National Military Park, a key destination along the newly designated Journey Through Hallowed Ground National Heritage Area. There are many potential sites for Wal-Mart, but only one Wilderness Battlefield.

It is imperative that Wal-Mart abandon its flawed plan for a massive Superstore at the gateway to the historic Wilderness Battlefield.

Take action to save our Civil War heritage:

* Sign the National Trust for Historic Preservation Petition to Stop Wal-Mart at -

http://my.preservationnation.org/site/Survey?SURVEY_ID=8440&ACTION_REQUIRED=URI_ACTION_USER_REQUESTS

* Learn more about the coalition to preserve Wilderness Battlefield at -

http://www.civilwar.org/walmart08/

* Help us save all our nation’s historic places by making a donation today at - https://secure2.convio.net/nthp/site/Donation2?idb=0&df_id=2140&2140.donation=form1&autologin=true&JServSessionIdr006=dgg8umc6k3.app1a.

National Trust for Historic Preservation
1785 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20036
202-588-6000 / 800-315-6847

http://www.preservationdirectory.com/PreservationBlogs/ArticleDetail.aspx?id=797&catid=1

[happygoluckytoyou]

50. HAHA.... the UNION ARMY should advance---- WALMART HATES ANTHING UNION!!!

[NBachers]

66. YES!! YES!! YES!!

Every community where Wal Mart of Home Depot wants to build: All you have to do is stipulate that the every employee MUST be union. All the construction and maintenance. All the store employees. No phony "supervisor exceptions." 100%, start to finish. Local, regional policy.

Not just some phony in-house "employee guild," but an honest-to-goodness, sanctioned and recognized, union. Permanently.

If the company refuses, then they don't build. Fine.

But if they build, then everyone in the company has a legitimate union job.

I realize there are still downsides, but it certanly protects the people who have to work there.

[Dukkha]

63. wouldn't be the first time

http://www.organicconsumers.org/corp/walmartmexico011805.cfm

Wal-Mart "Duped" Locals to Build on Holy Site
A Mexican co-operative say they were tricked into helping the retail giant defuse a row over its new store being built right beside ancient pyramids

[Igel]

68. Eh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_White_Mountain

While in Prague, I felt it necessary to do a "great places" kind of tour on my afternoons off. See the sites, so to speak, not just the sights.

So one afternoon off I went to Bila hora, which is in the west part of the city near where the final tram stop is. I got off and looked at the shops lining the street, and wondered where to go. People helped point me in the right direction, down a street lined on the north side by huge sprawling panelaky, the Stalinist-era gray prefab apt. buildings. There, in a wedge where one street merged into another, with a fair number of shops on one side and the panelaky on the other, was a small wheat field. Think an acre or less, so you could cross it in 5 minutes' brisk walking. It was July or August, so the wheat was about ripe and would be harvested. The wheat field was on a hill. Not a large hill, but you could tell there was a slope there.

At the top of the slope was a monument, surrounded by an iron fence. Voila, I had found the site of major battle that had great repercussions in Czech history. There was a small plaque at the monument, saying it was, indeed, where the battle of Bila hora had been fought. I looked around at the proximity of everything unpleasant, apart from the wheat, and decided that it was really rather a let down. I sat on a bench (on the street, so as not to reduce the area available for wheat farming) and rested for a few minutes, then made the 45 minute trip back.

Czechs didn't find it disrespectful, so I didn't. It was marked, and whatever was built around there was a testament to life: Rather than demanding that the past be conserved, with tracts of land untouched at all costs so that people could look at empty ground or lots of monuments, they had marked the spot, kept a small, respectful distance around it, and got on with their lives.

Then again, nobody was building something "politically" unpalatable there. Many of those arguing for the sanctity of the battleground would be against Walmart in any event, and wouldn't care much if the battleground was reduced in size to the monument at Bila hora (the War of 1812 battlegrounds I grew up near in Maryland are precisely that, to nobody's great displeasure). The battleground is only at issue because it's handy, not for its own sake, but for the sake of a current battle. In 100 years the Walmart store will have been torn down, and the ground that was the battlefield will remain. It's changed markedly since the battle; I noticed that at Gettysburg and Antietam, a lot of battlegrounds were heavily forested, or let run wild, when at the time of the battles they were farms ... nobody cared about preserving the lands as they were. Saying we must preserve the battlegrounds as they are, not as they were, nor allow them to change as they have in the past ... seems to be inconsistent to me. We can argue that they're pretty, that they're important green space, that we like the view and that should determine what we allow others to do with their land; but these aren't usually the central arguments made.

[dflprincess]

70. Walmart "seems to have a fetish for historically significant properties"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-norman/43-presidents-vs-wal-mart_b_116225.html

Superstore Threatens Quirky Collection of Presidential Heads

Wal-Mart Realty has chosen a number of bizarre locations upon which to build their sprawling, featureless boxes. The retailer seems to have a fetish for historically significant properties -- like the Hyde Park, New York parcel abutting the estate of F.D.R. Or Ferry Farm, the boyhood home of George Washington in Fredericksburg, Virginia. Wal-Mart was bought out of Ferry Farm by a private foundation. But none of these sites is stranger than the address at 211 Water Country Parkway in Williamsburg, Virginia. It's not the water park that Wal-Mart wants -- that's across the road. It's a unique, quirky piece of Americana known as Presidents Park.

This unusual tourist attraction features larger than life white concrete busts of some of America's most powerful men. According to the Virginia Gazette, Wal-Mart has its eye on Presidents Park, which describes itself as a "patriotic, educational, and inspiring experience." The Park features 16-18 foot high busts of all 43 American Presidents. Each bust includes handy narrative information on these White House denizens, including their height and weight. The full collection is the creation of artist/sculptor David Adickes, who once fabricated an eight foot tall bronze statue of George H.W. Bush, which today graces Bush International Airport in Houston. Adickes is less well-known for his 76 foot high statue of Sam Houston, which is a landmark in Huntsville, Texas. Perhaps the least known of his creations are the 43 Heads of State in Presidents Park, across Route 199 from the water park. One tourist called this collection of Famous Men "a strange American version of Easter Island."

But Presidents Park caught Wal-Mart's fancy, and if the retailer filibusters long enough, the presidents assembled may have to find new digs. The owner of Presidents Park, Harley Newman, doesn't want to sell the land, but one of his partners has passed away, and the heirs don't want anything to do with the 43 Presidents. Newman has not taken the big step yet of selling to Wal-Mart, but if the smell of money is stronger than the Park's mission of "encouraging civic responsibility and involvement," none of the Presidents are safe....

You don't have to be a fan of the current occupant of the Oval Office to appreciate the unique destination value of Presidents Park. Henderson says that Presidents Park has never received its proper respect as a piece of economic development. But this much is certain: Presidents Park will never steal sales away from existing merchants, never outsource jobs to China, and never worsen our foreign trade deficit. Unlike Wal-Mart, its 100% Made in America. And it's a much better use of concrete than any purpose Wal-Mart has found...

It was insult enough when Wal-Mart tried to build on Ferry Farm, the boyhood home of our First President. Now the giant retailer is taking on all 43 Presidents at once. George Bush, as a final Executive Act, should declare this site culturally significant to the American people, and divert $4 million from the war in Iraq to purchase it on behalf of the American people. Wal-Mart should not be allowed to leave our presidents homeless. As one tourist said in 2004, after visiting Presidents Park: "I'm not sure why the creator felt this is a necessary project, but I enjoyed my visit, and would recommend it to anyone traveling through the area... There's a snack bar and picnic tables, so you can eat/drink and bask in Presidential history."

[dysfunctional press]

78. it's actually not a bad marketing strategy for walmart-

making their name synonymous with american heritage in the minds of visitors to historic sites.
trying to offset that whole "made in china" thing they have going on.

[DainBramaged]

79. Do you really think people are that dumb to buy into it?

Wait......


yes they are, sorry for asking a dumb question.

[dflprincess]

81. I don't think many people will tie it into Walmart = America.

(though in so many bad ways, it does)

Those who aren't interested in history won't care if you can stand on the steps of FDR's or George Washington's home and look across the grounds to a Walmart. (Actually those who aren't interested will stand in Walmart's parking lot and look over at the historic home). Those of who are interested will just have another reason to hate Walmart.

[dysfunctional press]

82. lots of people and families especially, still take "driving vacations"...

where they visit the tourist sites in their own and maybe the state next door, and they'll generally stop at some historic sites as well, under the guise of taking part in their child's education in some kind of tangential way.
and- if every time they visit a gettysburg, vicksburg, leesburg, or schaumburg, they see a red-white-and-blue walmart across the street, they'll start making the connection- even if they aren't aware of it.

[semillama]

72. Speaking as someone who works in Cultural Resource Management

I can clear up the issue a little. What we are talking about is called "visual impact" - it's the impact a proposed new development will have on historical resources, such as this battlefield. A development doesn't have to be within a boundary of a historical site to have a visual impact on that site.

That being said, if the new development does not fall under any Federal, State or local preservation regulations, then there is nothing a government entity can do to stop it outright. Really progressive local governments have historic preservation regulations in place - I'm thinking of places like Phoenix and Tucson. But even without such regulations, a savvy coalition of concerned local officials and citizens might be able to find an alternative location for the Wal-Mart and perhaps add some form of financial incentive to build elsewhere, where there will not be a visual impact, or at least a lesser impact.

[DainBramaged]

76. Maybe the plan by these scum is to get "incentives" to move elsewhere

I would not put it past them.

[DainBramaged]

84. Just a little kick to keep people focused on the fight.