Conservatives on 9th Circuit Can't Rescue Boy Scouts From Establishment Clause Claim

[kpete]

Source: The Recorder

Conservatives on 9th Circuit Can't Rescue Boy Scouts From Establishment Clause Claim
Dan Levine
The Recorder
January 2, 2009

Conservatives on the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals couldn't muster enough votes to rescue the Boy Scouts from the riptide of an Establishment Clause claim.

The court denied en banc review Tuesday to a San Diego-based Boy Scouts group in a case that raises tough church-and-state questions (pdf). The appeal drew a wide range of amici: the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division and a group of states -- including Texas and South Dakota -- sided with the Scouts, while California filed for the plaintiffs.

A pair of couples, one lesbian and another agnostic, challenged a lease the Scouts signed with the city of San Diego allowing them to operate recreational facilities on park land. They said the deal violated the Establishment Clause because of the Scouts' professed reverence of God. In addition, they said they were averse to using the facilities because of the Scouts' stated policy of excluding gays and atheists.

The district court agreed during pretrial motions and the Scouts appealed. In June, a 9th Circuit panel led by Judge Marsha Berzon granted standing to the plaintiffs, over the objections of Judge Andrew Kleinfeld. Senior Judge William Canby Jr. tilted the decision against the Scouts.

"Just as African-Americans could ride on Montgomery's buses, but not in the front, the Scouts permit plaintiffs to make use of Camp Balboa and the Mission Bay Park Youth Aquatic Center, but do not allow them to be members of their organization and participate in the activities conducted at the camps for members," Berzon wrote. "In either case, use of a valuable public facility is made contingent on acceptance of imposed second-class status within a controlling organization's social hierarchy."



Read more: http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202427146693

[Jamastiene]

1. And that doesn't even bring Title IX into the equation.

The funny thing is, I love survival type stuff, but being gay, agnostic, AND female, I could never learn anything from them, because I wouldn't be welcome. Oh well, there are others who will allow diversity. Too bad the Boy Scouts get government sanction for their hideous discrimination.

[aggiesal]

4. What does Title IX have to do with Boy Scouts? ...

I thought that Title IX had to do with College Athletics.
Where all universities that participate in officially sanctioned
college events (i.e. NCAA, not intramural), have to fund both
mens and womens sports evenly except for mens football.

How does this affect the boy scouts?

I live in San Diego, and I'm a card carrying member of the ACLU.
I work with a lot of conservatives, and when I told them that I
was an ACLU member, they were not disappointed, but disgusted that
they were working with one of them.

They didn't like the original ruling that the Boy Scouts should not
be allowed to use public facilities because the discriminate against
gays. They thought it was ok for the BS to use public facilities
regardless if they discriminate against gays.

So I explained that if I started a club and discriminated against all
white males and all women, my club should be allowed use all public
facilities?

They responded "That's different, because you're excluding based on
race and gender."

So I responded "I see, it's ok to discriminate against sexual orientation
but not based on race or gender? Where does it end?"

[kimmylavin]

24. Common misconception about Title IX.

The text reads: "No person in the United States shall on the basis of sex, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance."

Title IX has been used most often to challenge high school and college sports programs, but its really supposed to be ANY program receiving federal money. The original statute actually made no reference to sports. Regardless, gender-specific clubs like the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts are exempt.

The history and full scope of Title IX is actually an interesting read!

[truedelphi]

37. What good information. Thanks n/t

[madmusic]

72. You might enjoy this then

The Gem of the Constitution

In December 2008, CAC released the first narrative in its Text and History series. This narrative tells the sad story of the Privileges or Immunities Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which was supposed to be the centerpiece of the Fourteenth Amendment and the critical constitutional language that guarantees the fundamental rights of all Americans. Instead, the Supreme Court wrote it out of the Constitution in 1873 and it has lain dormant ever since. The report argues for a reconsideration of the Clause and its critical role of protecting fundamental rights and liberties.

http://www.theusconstitution.org/page_module.php?id=10&mid=10

Bookmark that site, too. It's going places. It is real opposition to the Federalist Society, not the Alan Colmes kind of opposition that the American Constitutional Society is.

[murielm99]

36. Title IX came about because a female college

professor was denied career advancement because she came on too strong "for a woman." They actually said that.

Title IX was not about sports at all, even though that is how most people identify it. It was ground breaking civil rights legislation, and few of us know anything about it.

[Piewhacket]

22. I was a Boy Scout, in my youth...

and believe it was a worthwhile experience, worthy of doing by
ALL youngsters. But I'm now old, and that was about then...

But what I recall was virtually NO significant religious context, except the
pledge of allegiance, ("Under God" added in 1954, signed into law by
Eisenhower, which kids like myself simply accepted like the pledge itself
as some kind of mindless adult-imposed ritual to be acceded to now and
understood later).

Instead the Boy Scouts were for 'boys' who were, by societal "wisdom" (read: bigotry)
of the time, socially segregated from the 'girls', who were in the Girl Scouts,
probably mostly because 'boys' were preoccupied with frogs and warts and weird stuff,
while the 'girls' were into more social stuff (like cooking, sewing,
and gentler activities), and the two were perceived as having different interests.
Complete nonsense, bigotry, and stupidity, of course, in present context, but societies
have their little ways, norms, customs (mores) which must be obeyed until they
evolve.

But frankly, in my youth, as I can recall, neither religious context or gay/lesbian issues
really arose (openly homosexual conduct was not accepted, admittedly, but neither
was openly heterosexual conduct) and the issue of gays seemed never to arise
it was only 'boys' and 'girls' and not for those who didn't fit in. Some 'boys'
were just more 'effeminate' than others (read: not fitting in ), and some girls more
'tomboy' than others (read: not fitting in) and basically drifted out of or gently
encouraged out of participation. But no litmus test, or stigma, (for right or wrong)
it just happened.

At some point religious whackouts took over, hijacking the system, the bigotry became
pronounced and more overt, and the organization simply lost (imo) its way and credibility.
The 'good' in Scouting became a victim of the bigotry of the culture war. Today, despite
that I had good experiences in what was once a wonderful childhood experience, I
would not support Scouting, or recommend participation, and consider it to have been
subverted to something it should not be, a religious instrumentality.

Alas, and sad, but perhaps it will arise again from the ashes of its exclusionary throes.
There is much merit in Scouting, and I think Scouting could be worthy of rising again
to help young minds learn things of importance.

If we overlook, or return (as originally interpreted) the deity reference to
a 'permissive' or 'aspirational' rather than 'mandatory' context ,
Scouting principles seem quite laudable and worthy of respect.
So I hope Scouting rises again. Surely it will.

Scout Oath: On my honor, I will do my best, to do my duty to God and my country, and to obey
the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake and morally straight.

Scout Law:
A Scout is: Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient,
Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

Scout Motto: Be Prepared!

Scout Slogan: Do a Good Turn Daily!

Scout Outdoor Code: As an American, I will do my best to : Be clean in my outdoor manners,
Be careful with fire, Be considerate in the outdoors, and Be conservation minded.

[Gore1FL]

29. I am an Eagle Scout and a Scout Leader now

It is the same now as it was then, except for National getting involved in politics, and really only to keep the LDS youth program as a feeder.

Boy Scouts was and is a worthy organization for the most part. They just need to back off politics at the National and Council levels. No one questions sexuality politics, or religion at the troop level and that is where the real experience they Boys get anyways.

[murielm99]

38. My son is an Eagle Scout, too.

He and I are both proud of that accomplishment.

At present, he is not involved in any scouting or leadership programs. In the recent past, he has helped scouts in his community with badges.

I believe he is put off by the politics. He has a gay sister. He seems to believe that the national is ruining the Boy Scouts. He thinks that the Mormons have too much influence at the national level.

Once again, I am disgusted by the LDS church. I have never felt any particular revulsion toward them in the past. But between this and Prop 8, I am tired of them imposing their hateful beliefs on the rest of us. It is time to find a legal way to get their foot off our necks.

[ooglymoogly]

57. That is going to be hard with Harry Reid (senate majority leader) being morman...

and having so much power to effect the laws of the land. He is the reason decisions such as FISA, made by the senate lately are so bizarre.

[Piewhacket]

44. Eagle Scout is a high achievement...

and a Scout is a better person for having participated in Scouting.
In particular, Eagle Scouts have singled themselves out as
exceptional at several levels. So I sincerely congratulate you
on your accomplishment.

Yet the bigotry at the BSA national level taints an organization
that was never originally intended to teach religous zealotry or bigotry.
I think it was originally meant to teach just the opposite.
Cheer and welcome. Tolerance. Courtesy. Respect.
So I was taught. So I believed.

While there are sometimes problems at troop levels (these generate
the legal challenges which have now notoriously defined the BSA), I
am pleased to learn that remnants of the "old republic" still
survive at the troop level, defiantly unbowed by the Emperor and his
Dark Lord.

Your news is therefore pleasing. So carry on, and let it be so,
that from the acorn ...

[gorfle]

50. Religion in Scouting.

Yet the bigotry at the BSA national level taints an organization
that was never originally intended to teach religous zealotry or bigotry.
I think it was originally meant to teach just the opposite.
Cheer and welcome. Tolerance. Courtesy. Respect.
So I was taught. So I believed.

From what I remember of religion in Scouting, it was basically a free-for all. Any religion was fine, as long as you had one. This of course leaves atheists out, but if I was going though it again and ran into some snag because of my lack of belief I'd just claim belief in some totally asinine religion like the FSM or something.

I think Scouting should just drop the religious aspects all-together. I mean if they are saying that all religions are of equally valid footing, even religions that directly contradict other religions, then clearly they are saying that none are right, since they can't all be right. Atheism should be a valid choice.

The whole homosexual issue should be dropped, also. Before long it is going to be simply irrefutable that homosexuality is not a choice, and consequently there is no harm from having homosexual scout leaders or scouts since they cannot influence other people to choose to be gay. Unfortunately my experience leads me to believe that homosexual teenagers will likely never fit in with groups of heterosexual teenagers, given how kids tend to ostracize others who are different. But I think anyone should be allowed in Scouting. It would not even particularly bother me if Scouting was co-ed, though it was nice not to have the pressure of inter-sex socializing in Scouting.

[gorfle]

48. I am also an Eagle Scout

I am also an Eagle Scout. When my son is old enough, hopefully he will want to be involved and I will be a Scout Leader.

When I was in Scouting religion was never a big deal. On occasion (at Jamorees or other big multi-troop functions) there was often some kind of "vespers" or other religious ceremony at campfires and the mess hall and such, which made me uncomfortable, but I just went through the motions and went on with life. Sex was discussed because we were a bunch of teenage boys. I think I learned all my cuss words from Scouting. :) We had one homosexual Scout (probably too young to be sexually anything but he was definitely effeminate and grew up to be a homosexual) who ultimately was physically assaulted and dropped out. I regret this and do not agree with Scouting's policy on homosexuals. I don't think, however, that homosexual boys will ever fit in with most groups of heterosexual teenage boys. Children are simply too cruel and non-accepting of people who are different. You can make the rules be whatever you want - as soon as the responsible people's backs are turned the kids will be back to their usual abusive behavior. I experienced this myself as a kid for being a nerd.

Anyway I found Scouting to be a highly rewarding activity and I am proud to have done it and gotten my Eagle. I won't hesitate to let my son get into Scouting and become a Scout Leader. When I get back in, though, I'll work to make Scouting more inclusive.

[Piewhacket]

61. You've got to be carefully taught.

gorfle sez:
We had one homosexual Scout (probably too young to be sexually anything but he was definitely effeminate and grew up to be a homosexual) who ultimately was physically assaulted and dropped out. I regret this and do not agree with Scouting's policy on homosexuals. I don't think, however, that homosexual boys will ever fit in with most groups of heterosexual teenage boys. Children are simply too cruel and non-accepting of people who are different. You can make the rules be whatever you want - as soon as the responsible people's backs are turned the kids will be back to their usual abusive behavior. I experienced this myself as a kid for being a nerd.

Kids can be so cruel and huh..hard on nerds (sniffle). I know, believe me, I KNOW!
Even when you're a WASP in a WASP country, they STILL finds something to pick on. Geez!
No one is safe unless all are safe!
So Equal Rights, I say, equal rights and dignity for nerds!

Anyway, we cannot really control how others behave. We can only show them how WE behave,
who WE are. We may come up a little short ourselves, but if we stand on some high principles,
well then perhaps we will stand a little taller. perhaps?

My experience with two teenage neighbor girls who come over to play monopoly and raid the refrig when they are broke and (therefore) hungry, which occurs frequently due to some poorly developed shopping skills of paying too much for latte and clothing 'necessities' they don't actually 'need' ... but I digress... anyway my experience with them and their friends (ages 13-18) is that while there is sometimes friction over who likes what boy, or who ate the last donut, or what-EVER!, they could give a rat's petunia whether any of their friends are gay, which I think at least one is, but I wouldn't really know for sure, but I know they don't care. I'm in California, btw. Regions may vary. One thing seems to be universally true, however, and might be kept in mind as we ponder why kids act the way they do, (Scoutmasters please take notes) ...

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

(Musical: South Pacific, 1949, Rodgers and Hammerstein)

[Gore1FL]

63. If you get involved

Do yourself a favor and go to Wood Badge. That is an event of a lifetime--intense hard work (physical and mental) but a hell of a lot of fun. I got more leadership skills out of it than I did from my MBA and corporate training combined.

[Tunkamerica]

74. Fuck this and post 48

i did scouting early and both my younger brothers went through eagle. Your whole idea that "homosexual boys will never fit in with heterosexual boys" is ridiculous and feeds on it's on inanity. In 30 years you will be looked at as the people of the sixties who said that the same about black kids. blech.

[gorfle]

79. Maybe, but I doubt it.

i did scouting early and both my younger brothers went through eagle. Your whole idea that "homosexual boys will never fit in with heterosexual boys" is ridiculous and feeds on it's on inanity. In 30 years you will be looked at as the people of the sixties who said that the same about black kids. blech.

Maybe in 30 years teenagers will be more accepting of different people, or at least, effeminate boys. I don't think so though. When I was a kid, my folks dressed me in clothes that they thought were "nice" for school kids. Plaid pants, button-down shirts, etc. In short, I looked like a dork. On top of this, my folks would never buy name-brand clothing, so I was constantly ridiculed for the way I dressed and was constantly queried if I got my clothes at K-mart (which, of course, I did). On top of this, I was smarter than most kids. All of this painted me as someone who was "different", and my school days were endless hell because of it.

Later in my Scouting years I saw a gay kid go through the same embarrassment I did for the exact same reason: he was different. I've come to the conclusion that teenage children are just plain mean. If you don't conform, you will be the target of endless derision.

Hopefully in 30 years children will be different. But I doubt it.

[LostinVA]

83. Children learn what you teach them

They can be told to either knock off the "Lord of the Flies" garbage or be kicked out of the Scouts. Easy as that. Your excusing the discrimination against gay youth because of the "boys will be boys" copout is sickening.

[gorfle]

91. That's a good analogy, actually.

They can be told to either knock off the "Lord of the Flies" garbage or be kicked out of the Scouts. Easy as that. Your excusing the discrimination against gay youth because of the "boys will be boys" copout is sickening.

Actually, I'm not sure that this is something that can be taught. Your analogy with "The Lord of the Flies" is apt - I had forgotten that movie. That is precisely the kind of behavior children exhibit without adult guidance.

I'm not "excusing the discrimination against gay youth". I'm saying based on my experience, kids will ostracize other kids who are different, including kids who are gay. And while adult supervision will make the behavior go underground, as soon as their backs are turned it will crop right back up. This is what I experienced myself as a kid and what I witnessed in Scouting.

[Piewhacket]

94. Scoutmastering is not about control..

you can't control top predators, which is what teens are, never doubt it
a second, and never turn your back on them...

Vicious, dangerous, predators for whom everything is prey.
Got the image? You can't control them.
One of you, many of them. If you annoy them they will turn on
you and eat you. OK, Scoutmaster? Glad I got here in time!

So adjust your focus. To stay alive you must leverage
your advantages. You have training, intelligence, maturity.
You ARE the superior predator.
(chant that to yourself as often as necessary)
You are the model of what they must become, or perish.

So here is your secret weapon, knowledge.
The objective isn't for you to control them.
It is for you to teach them to control them.
Aye, that be the challenge. Good luck.

(and "Lord of the Flies" is a novel by Nobel laureate William Golding)

[depakid]

51. "They just need to back off politics at the National and Council levels."

As always, it's fundies (or Mormons) at the top trying to be hard asses that ends up asking for (or causing) trouble like this.

[AlbertCat]

64. Boy Scouts was and is a worthy organization

Are the Girl Scouts worthy too?

Then why not get rid of the gender and just have "Scouts"?. Put all the merit badges together so Joe can get a sewing one and Alice can get a survival one....or what ever.

I was never in the scouts because I was a little sissy and it was never even an option.... or any other club really. Even the Theatre groups reluctantly let me come along. But that was the 60's so....that's OVER! Or at least should be over.

[Gore1FL]

70. I can agree with that

a merging of the programs would be a good thing.

Females are welcome in Venturing, but they have to be 14 for that--as do males who chose to join that branch of "Boy" Scouting.

[Jamastiene]

81. The Girl Scouts are an insult to a woman's intelligence.

The Girl Scouts limits a girls potential for anything that requires more than the basic housework. It's an insult.

[Scout]

82. ummmmm, have you actually BEEN a girl scout in the last 40 years?

i learned and did a LOT that had nothing to do with housework in Scouts. Our senior troop was a mariner troop, and we went sailing with the boats we owned, and went on camping/hiking trips.


ETA: our troop in high school also had two boys who were members. they didn't care for some of the macho bullshit that went on in the high school boy scout troop at the time.

[Sisaruus]

99. 40-plus years ago, I was introduced to social justice movements by the Girl Scouts

I attended a Girl Scout national summer program that focused on civil rights and urban issues. We lived in a college dorm, attended educational seminars, and spent the afternoon doing community service work in an inner city. And the GS *summer camp* songs that I learned were all the civil rights ballads of the 60s. I was a privileged white kid who, as a result of that summer, ended up spending my adult life working on social justice issues. Juliette Gordon Low taught girls about civic leadership before women even had the right to vote.

[LostinVA]

84. They've gotten MUCH MUCH better, and young woman do do survival stuff now

They get the equivalent of an Eagle Scout badge in the Venturing Program.

[Sisaruus]

101. Basic House-work - and Senate-work - and so much more

Our regional Girl Scout office introduces girls to political leadership possibilities. It also has a dating violence prevention program, runs programs for girls in detention centers, offers LGBT workshops, coordinates local and statewide cooperative girl programs in science, math, technology and engineering, has college readiness programs for girls from distressed urban schools, offers environmental action activities, etc. Seems pretty smart to me.

[PatrynXX]

34. mid 80's

I never made it to being a Boy Scout. We moved around alot then. I was I think a Tiger Scout for a little while then made it to Cub Scout. Yes the Christian flag would be nearby. But no severe Christianity indoctrination that I recall. Scouts are a bit of the Environmentalist. As long as it's not a Big City scout leadership. Then like big unions in the adult world things get hairy. Ours were the small type. ie late at night listening to the rails on the railroad tracks :) And the Pinewood Derby.... only to find out, bit too overweight in the front so gotta find some holes. Good way to bury some fishing weights though :)

My brother made it as far as the Weiblo's (sp!!) with the checkered bandanna. Ironically, we were going to a Missouri Synod Lutheran church at the time and the Pastor frowned on wearing the uniforms in church. It wasn't banned, but it was frowned upon. Never understood why. I was 11-13 at the time so memory is kinda off kilter now. (I hadn't been near that church in over a decade, but we visited it yesterday on a trip up to la crosse wi. old style church. 2 miles out of town. lots of fond memories there. except nobody I know really well lives there anymore. tiny town lewiston , mn , which from the looks of things might not have any open bars anymore. bad economy hurts the small towns first)

[Tunkamerica]

75. very concise

straight to the fucking heart of things

[Jamastiene]

80. If it could be a type of thing where

you have the hunters on one end and the gatherers on the other end, regardless of religion, sexual orientation, or gender, it would be a great thing for kids to learn good deeds and survival information.

I was denied both the boy scouts and Little League baseball only because I was a girl. I tried the Girl Scouts, but I never was into baking and all that other stuff. All the Girl Scouts did was try to make money. I didn't learn anything except that I hated the idea of being forced to sell cookies. Fuck a damn cookie. I wanted something useful in nature, not some home economics class. What an insult.

I was also denied little league as well, which was the one that really broke my heart. I was better at baseball than most of the kids in the neighborhood.

The boys from my neighborhood who were signing up too asked them why they wouldn't let me play little league with them when I had grown up playing with them in the neighborhood. No answer was ever given except that was the way it had always been; no girls allowed. I'll never forget those guys who tried to stand up for me. Of course, as usual, the girls in the neighborhood just sulked at me and asked why I was trying to cause trouble. It is the women, most of the time, who are the worst about gender biased bigotry than the men, in my experience.

I was forced into girls tee ball and I was too rough for the girls, didn't get along with any of them or their dollies or silky clothes, and was not used to playing tee ball nor playing with a softball. In my neighborhood, we played baseball; the pitcher pitched over-handed. Our neighborhood pitcher for my team, played baseball at the high school and would let us try to get better at hitting by hitting his fastballs. It was good practice for all involved. He was a damn good pitcher.


I realize I have veered off from strictly the Boy Scouts, but it explains a lot of why I feel the way I do about women/girls being excluded when some are good enough to participate. I was forced to join the Girl Scouts and then later the Pioneer Club, which didn't last more than a couple of months either. After all that work to get my glove broke in playing baseball, I never did like playing with a softball.

It was like a demotion in both cases. After one season of the girls' tee ball, I quit and swore never to do athletic/outdoors/physical type activities again, outside of what I was forced to do in school. In school, I tried to get a note from my doctor to not have to do more than the minimum in gym classes as well. I was that disgusted. I was born with spina bifida, but it was a mild case. The doctor had said that exercising my legs was the best thing they could do to keep me from becoming paralyzed. He was disgusted too, but not disgusted enough to let me out of gym classes. I started missing tons of days from school after that.

My point is that being able to play just fine in the neighborhood with my peers, then being told I was less than simply because of my gender when trying to participate in more organized activities changed my entire outlook on life and changed my entire life. I have not played sports since that happened. I have not support even so much as 4h since that happened. If any of these types of organizations want money from bonds, I always vote against them and some of them do sometimes, I will continue to vote against them.

[slampoet]

103. The VERY FIRST DAY i was in scouts they sang "The B-I-B-L-E, THAT'S THE BOOK FOR ME"

Also other scout troops were referred to by what church organized them and not their number or name.


Our scout master wouldn't say "Forget troop 1734" instead he'd say "Screw those methodists"

[One_Life_To_Give]

90. High Adventure perhaps?

Less well known but the BSA also has High Adventure/Explorer Posts without the same restrictions on youth members. For ages 14-20, any gender, religion not required. I headed up a group of Fire Explorers some years ago.

[scytherius]

2. Most don't know that the Mormon Church essentially "runs" the Scouts

I left the Mormon Church many years ago but was a Bishop, Stake President, Regional Representative among other positions. I left when I realized, mostly thanks to it's leaders, what a scam the Church was. (This was pre-internet so it was not nearly as easy to gather information)

In any event, the Scouting program is fully integrated into the You Men's Priesthood program. It is it's activity arm. If you are a teenage boy in the Church, and you are active in the Mormon church, you ARE in the Scouts, no questions asked.

Baci in the 70s or 80s, the Scouts were toying, well more than toying, with the idea of permitting gays. The Mormon Church threatened to withdraw it's support. This would be an ENORMOUS blow to the Scouts and probably the beginning of the end for the BSA. The Church is, without question, the BSA's largest benefactor both financially and in numbers. To lose it's support would be devastating. And the Church has made it clear as crystal the for the BSA . . . no gays allowed.

Again, one of the reasons I left the Mormon Church, 90% of the reason, was realizing that the face put on by it's leaders is nothing at all like what is in their collective souls. I have rarely seen such institutionalized bigotry and cruelty in an identifiable group.

[aggiesal]

5. The BSA can discriminate against anyone they want, ...

just don't expect me to use them, and they can't receive public tax dollars or use publicly funded facilities and at the same time exclude a segment of the population from their event.

[scytherius]

12. Agreed. As long as they keep it "private"

they do have the right to be bigots.

[Deep13]

23. I disagree.

Businesses may not discriminate on the basis of race, religion or gender. I would add orientation to that list. The BSA is not some isolated social club. It is a national institution. While it may not seek monetary profit, it is a business and state and Federal civil rights laws apply to it.

[scytherius]

41. Well actually

they can . . . if they are TRULY private, i.e. roadside stand. However, because everything is licensed through some governmental entity it is in that way they keep them from being able to do so. And the BSA isn't a business, it is a club and a non-profit at that. While international, it's still considered a private club though, I am with you, I don't believe that it should be.

[LostinVA]

85. And, it gets public money, public institutions rent-free, public "time," etc.

Do the cops go in and do presentations? Firefighters? That's public.

[Hieronymus]

47. Good point ... but no public funds or facilities for bigots.

[AlbertCat]

65. They DO!

When I was dong costuming for commercials, we did this cigarette ad for Cost Rica up in the Asheville, NC area (They needed it to look like fall.... with colored leaves and stuff....something they don't have in Costa Rica). We were to film at a lake used by the Scouts. After we got all set up to shoot, they told us we couldn't, because it was a cigarette ad. We had to scramble, find a new location and set up and film. Lost more than a day of shooting. What a pain!

So the Scouts are concerned about lung cancer in Costa Rica, but not about bigotry in their own country.

[poverlay]

9. When I left the Scouts twenty years or so ago, it was somewhere on the order of 3 Mormon troops for

every Catholic or other non-Mormon run troop. It's too bad the organization has been so politicized and co-opted by the Mormons. I really enjoyed it most of the time I was a kid.

[scytherius]

13. Yeah that's about the ratio I remember. Been awhile. n/t

nt

[veritasvg]

46. Maybe It's Changed Now...

...but I seem to remember most of troops being run by the Lutherans. That's how it was in Ohio during the seventies.

[rox63]

16. Are the Mormons involved at all with the Girl Scouts?

I was a girl scout until about age 15. We met in rectory basement of a Catholic church, and most of the girls and leaders were Catholic. I owe a large part of my appreciation for nature and the outdoors to my years with the scouts. I'm not a practicing Catholic anymore, but I still have fond memories of my years in the scouts.

[scytherius]

18. They are not

Much to the chagrin of some of the members, actually. A good number used to wonder why there wasn't the same support of the girls.

[helderheid]

21. Is that just here in Utah or is that everywhere?

[scytherius]

42. Everywhere. n/t

nt

[LostinVA]

86. EVERYWHERE -- they did it on purpose

[JerseygirlCT]

26. Yes. And that financial blackmail is surely at the heart of this

I've spoken to individuals up here, active in BSA, who are upset that they cannot confront the issue. Or feel they cannot.

Of course, then the response from the same person was to accuse those unhappy with the policy of "politicizing" BSA. As if.

[politicalmajority]

28. Yes the Mormon Church Is a Scam and I Am Happy That You Left the Church

Just do the simple DNA test of ancient Indians. They did not come from Israel like the Book of Mormon claims. They came from Asia. And thank you for your post.

[scytherius]

43. Oh boy, so am I lol And . . .

not only the DNA thing, but SO much else. Interestingly, I left pre-Internet. Once all of that type of evidence came to light it just moved my 99.9% sureity to 100%.

[CubicleGuy]

52. Book of Mormon origins

"They did not come from Israel like the Book of Mormon claims. They came from Asia."

I guess you weren't really paying attention to your Book of Mormon, then.

The Jaredites were there first. They came across Asia before building their boats to get here. And if you look at the proper names in the Book of Mormon, there is an obvious strong influence of Jaredite names in use among the Nephites. Apparently, some of the Jaredite strain lived to intermingle with the Nephite strain.

Give it some thought.

[AlbertCat]

66. Give it some thought.

Why? Why would ANYBODY give such nonsense some thought?

Actually if one DID give it some thought, it would fall apart quicker than boiled okra.

(BTW... I assume you were injecting :sarcasm:)

[xchrom]

3. off to the greatest. nt

[usregimechange]

6. See this post with text from the ruling here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4750051

[Bette Noir]

7. Good.

It's about time the BSA got called out for discrimination. They've been a quasi-governmental organization for too long.

[undeterred]

8. One of my relatives has been involved with the Boy Scouts

his entire life. About 10 years ago I asked him where he stood on their policy of exluding homosexuals, and he said he was all for it. I asked him why, and he said that he thought gays set a "bad example". I asked him if he thought teaching children to be bigots was setting a "good example". We haven't spoken much since.

This year his 17 year old son came out to him. Despite being raised in the Catholic Church,the Boy Scouts, and a homophobic home... he is gay. I hope dad comes to his senses.

[williesgirl]

10. A great step one for upholding our Constitution. Need many more in 2009. rec'd

[sam sarrha]

15. they are a 'private organization', hijacked by the Fundies

[NNadir]

11. This one has got under my skin for a long time.

The Boy Scouts went to the Supreme Court twice, not once, but twice to have themselves declared a religion so they could discriminate against atheists and gays.

The fine young gay Eagle Scout in my state, New Jersey, wanted nothing to do other than to serve as a scoutmaster, to continue a life of service. Bigots denied him, going to court to do so.

I am not gay, but I am an atheist and you cannot believe the pressure on my kids to become scouts, in their school.

I am, as it happens, more or less "in the closet" in my public atheist life, for business and other reasons, and so I would rather not have to publicly challenge the situation.

My I am glad that some people have more courage than I do.

[sam sarrha]

14. the scouts saved my life, i mumbled thru the god crap, a devout Atheist at age 6, my father beat me

nearly every day. scouts got me out of the house 3 evenings a week, and as soon as i conned my way into the summer camp system all summer for 5 years.

my 3 friends started making fancy meals and mountain man rendezvous campsite things.. we were asked to also attend other troops camp outs and teach their kids pioneering. they put up a calendar with each troops activities and a list of contact numbers at the scout office a short bike ride from my home, they picked us up and dropped us off..sweet. so..i was gone every weekend all year round, we started a 5 day winter and summer survival training program in the high Sierra supported by the national guard. i got my eagle scout badge, i started a merit badge study group and 7 of our troop got their eagle together, and 6 from other troops. i got all but 3 merit badges. i got every award they offered. i could also check out canoes for my personal activities, keys to the summer camp during winter, it was a 5 mile snow shoe trip with my friends or alone. i organized Bicycle hikes, tours on bicycles up to 600 miles camping out, cutting a day of high school before a 4 day weekend, we never got in trouble from the office they just looked the other way, the group i rode with became a major bicycle club later.

i am a high functioning autistic, had it not been for the Boy Scouts, warts and all i would probably be homeless hiding in a box still flipping my hands at 60. or my father would probably have beaten me to death in a drunken rage. i am now an aerospace technician, i am the only person at work that wants to tackle a problem, take charge and do a perfect job. that is what the merit badge system did for me. I'm always looking for something else to do better, i always compete with myself to do a better job faster.

the adults need to shut the fuck up and start worry'n about helping kids develop real life skills and helping kids in crisis.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. There are other organizations doing the same thing and not discriminating against certain kids

I teach in an urban school and there are no Boy Scout troops in the area. But we have Boys and Girls Club, the Police Athletic League and Campfire. All are providing the same things Boy Scouts do and no one is refused admission.

[sam sarrha]

19. true but not everyone has that option, kids are desperate for help, they later grow up and try to

change things.. there is a line self righteousness crosses and causes more harm than good.. kids know whats going on usually anyway, i had a gay friend in scouts, we went camping all the time, we talked about how stupid and repressive religion was around the campfire.. i was in the Free Hilliness Pentecostal Church, till i left my fathers home at 18.. i hated god from as early as i can remember for the torture i went thru at church..

i attempted Suicide at age 6 because of that church. i knew if you cursed god he would strike you dead.. so i just couldn't take it any more, i went into the hall closet, wrapped up in some blankets under the coats.. got ready to die.. and cursed god with every dirty word i ever heard, gritted my teeth waited for the end.. noth'n happened. i crawled out of the closet and went to church, again. only with the attitude that all those people were F'n nuts. i started cultivating friendships with the more bohemian types and started reading about other religions and the ancient pantheons.. as i got older.

[Gore1FL]

30. Most don't at the troop level

I have seen several boys in my troop attain Eagle, and if a few of them weren't gay, they missed their calling.

Boy Scouts is a good organization with bad national (and Council) leadership. The program kicks ass. I'd recommend atheists and homosexuals to get involved for the right reasons and ignore National and Council when necessary.

[JerseygirlCT]

33. Here's what happened when a local group wanted to expand their

activities at my church: we were told "we don't discriminate in our troop". Ok, good enough. Then we asked the troop leader to write to national, expressing that opinion and advocating for a change. He absolutely refused, and accused us of politicizing things.

We turned his request down. And after that behavior, I have to say I question just how non-discriminatory this troop really is.

We were willing to help them change things. We weren't willing to further a relationship with a discriminatory organization.

If more local troops were willing to stand up, then there's some chance change might be forced. When they refuse to do anything, there's no chance whatsoever.

[Gore1FL]

35. There are always individuals like that

I've always taken the correct side of this when the discussions came up. More reasonable people at least accepted my point of view even if they disagreed with it. Then there are others who are hell bent on using National to cover themselves.

I went through Wood Badge, and there was a Lesbian in my Troop. It seemed rather obvious at first, anyways, but at the reunion few months later, here partner (who had made it through training previously (She was wearing the Gilwell Neckerchief and the beads) came with her--And that was Wood Badge!!

Believe me, Boy Scouts is so freaking infiltrated by the GLBT community their stated policies are, at best, a joke. They may have every intention of keeping people "off the Bus." What they can't seem to fathom, is that many are drivers, many sit at the front, but bottom line, no one stays off the bus if they don;t want to.

My parents have a law in their neighborhood (that is still on the books) that minorities can only enter if they are servants. Based on the demographics of the neighborhood, the defacto beats the dejure'. The same is true for the BSA.

Now, that said, I would love to see a U.S. based troop affiliate themselves with the Boy Scouts of Norway or Canada--organizations who do not have the rules in the first place. That would get a lot of press and help to marginalize National's misguided policies.

When the crap first started going down in the 1998, I wrote a letter to National thanking them for giving me the moral compass in my youth to realize their policies wrong. As long as the LDS is involved with BSA, it's going to be impossible to change their policies. (They even created LDS-specific Varsity Scouts).

From what I have seen, the best solution (short of the Canada and Norway options mentioned above) is to ignore the policies altogether.

there is (or at least was) a good website about this: www.scoutingforall.com I haven't been there in a while.

[acmavm]

20. You are a very impressive individual, I must say. It's nice to hear your

story.

And you have made the biggest point that needs be made about this whole subject period. This is for kids. Why are people allowing the Boys Scouts to be used like they are. The 'politicization' of the Boy Scouts has destroyed the very good that it had to offer.

[JerseygirlCT]

27. I think that's precisely why the BSA needs to quit discriminating

The very idea that a vulnerable young man would be treated badly - or even differently - because of a discovery about his sexual orientation or religious (or lack of religious) beliefs... how any organization could in good conscience allow that is beyond me.

They'd have a great deal to offer were they to put aside the bigotry.

[JerseygirlCT]

25. That's great news. It's long past time they let go of that silliness

It's a shame - could be a good organization for kids if they'd stop being bigots.

[Gore1FL]

31. The weird thing about it is that the 12th Law = A Scout is Reverent

It doesn't specifically define what a Scout believes God is, hence God could = Creation. That is a pretty easy loophole.

Ironically, the explaination in the handbook requires the respect of other's belief.

Originally Clean and Reverent were not Scout Laws.

[beltanefauve]

56. A lot of the anti-gay

policies in Scouts, I believe, are due to a perverted interpretation of the term, "morally straight" as well.

[Gore1FL]

62. Thats kind of a funny thing too.

because Scouting For boys defines a lot of interesting things that the arguments are based on.

Powell even wrote there is an inherent "Christianity" to Scouting--though he clearly could have meant any religion in the context of his argument. He was basically saying, in Scouts you learn values akin to the Golden Rule. It's about service to others.

As far as morally straight, Baden Powell had cross dressed and had stated how he like to see naked boys on the beach when overlooking a scouting event. (Though he did have a strong stand against Pedophiles.)

Those who make that argument need to read up on the founder.

One of the people who argued about this topic with me at a Scouting event asked me if I wanted my son exposed to gay sex on campouts. I answered no, but that I wasn't keen on having him exposed to heterosexual sex on campouts either.

[Cheap_Trick]

32. I was a Cub Scout, but got kicked out for eating Brownies.

:rofl: But seriously, the den mother gave preferential treatment to her son. The night I was supposed to advance to Weeblo(?), he got it instead even though I'd completed all the requirements. I quit that night.

[davidthegnome]

39. Waste of time for me

I was in the cub scouts as a boy, the only things I remember learning there are how to make some absurd paper whistle, and how to put a quarter on my elbow and catch it with my hand. We were supposed to go door to door peddling genuinely useless merchandise that some people buy to be polite, kind - to contribute to the group.

Yet even after the fundraisers we never once so much as went on a camping trip. I learned absolutely squat about nature from the idiots that ran the group up here.

Maybe my experience was unique, but frankly, I wish I'd never bothered with it. In my opinion, there are better methods of learning.

[gorfle]

53. On Cub Scouts.

I was in the cub scouts as a boy, the only things I remember learning there are how to make some absurd paper whistle, and how to put a quarter on my elbow and catch it with my hand. We were supposed to go door to door peddling genuinely useless merchandise that some people buy to be polite, kind - to contribute to the group.

Yet even after the fundraisers we never once so much as went on a camping trip. I learned absolutely squat about nature from the idiots that ran the group up here.

Maybe my experience was unique, but frankly, I wish I'd never bothered with it. In my opinion, there are better methods of learning.

I don't think your experience was unique at all, and, while I was never a Cub Scout (only in Boy Scouts, got my Eagle), I think Cub Scouts do a huge disservice to Boy Scouting. As you noted, Cub Scouting tends to be very sissified. It's about den mothers and making craft projects out of Popsicle sticks and yarn and other trivial crap. By the time a boy is old enough for Boy Scouts (10 1/2) they are absolutely finished with that sort of thing and are convinced that Boy Scouting is going to be more of the same crap. All through my teenage years I never told anyone that I was in Scouting because it was considered (ironically) to be "gay" - a goodie-goodie-two-shoes sort of activity. If only they knew. Some of the most physically demanding, fun things in my life I did in Scouting. Rappelling, mountain climbing, hiking, swimming, building monstrous tower and bridge works for pioneering projects. There was nothing wussy about our Scouting activities.

[kag]

40. I was a Girl Scout until I was 15

Became a First Class GS with four of my friends. My mom was co-troop leader. I do remember some religious infusion, but at the time it didn't really register with me (catholic then, atheist now).

When my daughter was in third grade she BEGGED to join GS. I agreed, remembering it as a great experience for me. Once in, I tried to help out the troop leader now and then. She turned out to be a fundamentalist, creationist bigot. I held my breath, and hoped her bigotry didn't seep out into the meetings and activities. Ugh.

I should have known something was up when my daughter told me that one girl (whose parents I knew to be enlightened atheists) quit. My daughter said that the girl was told that she had to believe in God to be a GS. I hoped against hope that the story had gotten munged in the re-telling. It hadn't.

I know this was a case of the individual ruining it for the girls, but it really disappointed me that something that I remembered so fondly couldn't be the same great experience for my daughter. My daughter finally realized that she was only in it for the cookies anyway, and she could see how much this troop leader really gnawed at me, and knew why. She decided on her own that selling cookies wasn't worth exposing herself to this bigot. (My daughter is ten, and truly wise beyond her years. This all happened a couple of years ago.)

That has been our only experience with scouting. I guess when it all boils down, it's up to the individual troops and their members whether the Institutionally-sanctioned prejudice and self-righteous bigotry will be part of the activities of the group. Just like you can't legislate morality, you can't squeeze compassion and tolerance from a bigoted turnip.

[Sisaruus]

59. Girl Scouts does not sanction religious intolerance

Actually it's not up to the individual Girl Scout troop leader nor is intolerance institutionally-sanctioned. I'm a recently-retired Girl Scout executive. The GS policy is that a religious belief (or lack thereof) is the business of a girl and her parents/guardians. I was an open atheist, as was one of our board presidents during my tenure. In our state we also had domestic partner benefits for our gay and lesbian staff. And in an unscientific poll of adolescent girls in one of our programs, 30% reported they were in same-sex relationships; we did not ask them to leave.

[Hekate]

45. Santa Barbara Board of Supervisors decided years ago that the Scouts would have to pay for use...

.. of County park facilities (and get in line for scheduled use) like the rest of us instead of having a privileged position. This action was a direct result of the BSA codifying their discrimination against gays and of the Affirmative Action Commission bringing it to the attention of the Board of Supes.

The struggle goes on and on.

Incidentally, the BSA also wanted to deny Unitarian scouts their Religion in Life merit badges because the UUs support gay rights. My BIL and nephew chose to stay and fight...

But when my dad was a Scoutmaster back in the 1960's there was no religious content at all. If a boy and/or his parents wanted to go for that merit badge, fine, but it didn't come from the Scoutmaster. Likewise there were always troops that were sponsored through churches and synagogues, but it was understood that they were Catholic or Jewish or whatever...

Hekate

[Not Me]

49. I am a former Eagle Scout,, and enjoyed scouting when I was a teen

I was a very physically active kid, and our troop was large and had a lot of programs.
My college swimming career started with mile swim at summer camp. I have friends still from Boy Scouts.

All that said, looking back we were exclusive even in the 70's. My troop was sponsored by a church; those from outside the Catholic parish really weren't welcome. The kids were from a white, mostly Irish/Italian neighborhood. Those from outside that neighborhood weren't welcome. Ditto blacks. Ditto anyone who was perceived to be gay.

I didn't recognize it at the time, but it is a systemic bias that has been going on for a long time. And apparently (from those who I know who have been involved as leaders) it got much worse when the headquarters was wrestled from New Jersey to Texas.

I really wish they were more open and embracing; building REAL character for boys in this country.
But I recognize their right to be a private organization; however, with that hard fought effort, they need to realize that they are giving up the public financial support that they have had for years.

[hayu_lol]

54. What people tend to forget about Scouting...

is that the founder, Lord Baden-Powell, had foremost in his mind, two things: To get young men out of their homes in Britain and into the wilds, and away from their mothers and preachers. A simple non-specific religion was used originally and didn't take up much of the scout's time.

It was more about learning useful survival tools than anything else.

Back in the 40s, when I was a scout, we kept to the Baden-Powell philosophy.

When my youngest son joined, I was horrified to find that fundy religion had taken over with massive training sessions. I pulled him out of the program.


The girl scouts, on the other hand, decided early on not to discriminate against anyone for any reason. Theirs is the better group for that policy today. They no longer just bake cookies, sew and so on. They do many of the same thing that boy scouts do...they just do it in a better way.

[jmowreader]

55. It would cost less than $500 million/year to nationalize the BSA

I don't think you'd HAVE to nationalize the Girl Scouts, in that they don't seem to have gone full-tilt Fundie Whackjob like the Boy Scouts have, but if we only took the BSA the GSA leadership would scream Title IX Discrimination, so let's go ahead and take both organizations.

I think that, at the root level, most of the people here would agree the Boy Scouts are a good thing, if you got rid of the homophobia and Dominionism. They teach things every boy should know, like playing fair, healthy competition and making really fast little wooden cars. If you were able to remove the pernicious influence of Fundamentalist Christianity from the Boy Scouts, most people would support the organization wholeheartedly.

I checked their balance sheet, which is available online: their 2007 liabilities were less than $204 million. If you were to open Scouting to all without religious discrimination you'd probably double the membership, so we'll say you'd spend twice as much money running the Scouts. Add in a little for inflation, and you're looking at about $500 million per year.

[Thothmes]

60. So If the repubs got back in power

and the Boy Scouts were nationalized would they turn them into the Hitler Jugen or the Young Pioneers.

[jmowreader]

68. Probably the Komsomol

The Young Pioneers are what the Cub Scouts would be.

But look...if they put the "Barack the Magic Negro" asshole in as chairman of the RNC, we may not have to worry about the Republicans getting back in power for sixty or seventy years, if ever.

[Thothmes]

77. Never think for one instant that past good deeds will be

rewarded by continued reelection. Remember the last 14 years. All it will take in a couple of major blunders on our part and we could be out on our ears. We must always remember this and work hard to serve the people. Apathy and smugness can put us in the minority very quickly.

[AlbertCat]

69. would they turn them into the Hitler Jugen or the Young Pioneers.

The Blackwater Youth Brigade?

[jmowreader]

78. How about the Amway Evangelists?

A group of Fired Up young men and women dressed in black pants, white short-sleeve shirts and black skinny ties Showing The Plan to unsuspecting homeowners all across America.

[jeff30997]

58. Conservatives...

Like their Boy Scouts naked and bonded.Fuck those bastards!!!

[PassingFair]

67. Campfire Kids...

http://www.campfire.org/all_about_us/

snip>Serving youth from birth to 21, Camp Fire USA helps boys and girls learn - and play - side by side in comfortable, informal settings. Our coed programs allow parents to consolidate schedules for both their daughters and sons.

As the first nonsectarian, interracial organization for girls in the United States, Camp Fire USA takes pride in its long-standing commitment to providing fun programs and services to all children and families in America. We are inclusive, open to every person in the communities we serve, welcoming children, youth and adults regardless of race, religion, socioeconomic status, disability, sexual orientation or other aspect of diversity. Camp Fire USA's programs are designed and implemented to reduce sex-role, racial and cultural stereotypes and to foster positive intercultural relationships.<unsnip

This is a tremendous organization!

I have done work for them in the past and
can't say enough good about them.

Screw the Boy Scouts, who EXPEL
freethinkers who speak out:

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/lambert.html

[Igel]

71. Eh. Politics.

The official stance hasn't changed since I was a scout in the '70s.

You live through the religious stuff; I disagreed with it (not my variety of Xianity at the time), so you stand there while everybody else chants whatever it was they changed. "... duty, to God and my country ..." or the Lord's Prayer, mostly. I fell silent, and really, nobody cared. Nobody forced me to speak, just as I wasn't going to force others not to speak.

My patrol leader was gay. He tried for Eagle, don't think he made it. Died of AIDS in the mid-80s, I heard. His best friend was also gay, and in another patrol for a while. They got picked on, but not by anybody official. They weren't "out", officially, but that wasn't much of a problem: Few guys had girlfriends, and fewer talked about them. The policy may have been set nationally--no openly gay behavior--but enforcement was local. Pretty much we weren't an exception to the rule. Had there been any overt heterosexual or homosexual activity, the scouts involved would have been canned on the spot. And, come to think of it, I can't remember much that was pro either orientation.

We met at a church; but often camped at state and national parks, or held large meets on state/federal property.

To have punished the troop for national policy would have been wrong. The humorous thing about it is that the two guys who were gay really had no kind of social life apart from scouts--they were more accepted in their scout troop than they were at school, and the scout leaders defended them more (when needed) than the public school teachers did.

[The Doctor.]

73. Nice to see so much balanced input. I was a scout too.

Made it to First Class before moving from one town to another.

Learned so many skills.

One of the creepy things about the Troop I was in... we met in a Catholic Church every week. No, that in itself wasn't creepy... it was Father Paul... he like to 'engage' us.
Nice guy. Had a thing for the boys. Liked to 'tickle' them. At 13, I gave him a 'look'. That was the end of my scouting career.

Up until then, it was nothing but a positive experience.

The BSA has no business using public resources if it discriminates... period.

[HamdenRice]

76. These kinds of cases are bad for gays, lesbians, atheists, boy scouts and parks altogether

What a waste of time, resources and political capital. I don't know why progressive organizations waste time "going after" private organizations that disagree with or exclude them, because they raise the specter to the public -- most of which belongs to one "special interest" or cultural group or another -- of being forced to accept members or ideas that are contrary to their own.

By this logic, a church group could not use the park for a church sponsored picnic because it excludes, by its very nature, atheists. By the same token, an atheist group can be barred from holding a protest in the park because it discriminates against Jews and Catholics. And good luck trying to hold a gay pride parade on public space once you get these cases entrenched.

The public square should be open to everyone. In other words, everyone should have access to it. Right now we are moving to the reverse situation -- which is everyone has the right to keep someone else out of the public square.

Instead, both atheists and church groups should have access to the park.

[Creideiki]

87. Ah, yes. The resurrection of Whites Only establishments

How many restaurants are publicly owned? Not many. That means that these are private establishments that have to serve everyone in the public without discrimination. So any restaurant owner who doesn't like black people shouldn't have to serve them. Or at the very least, a Whites Only section and a Coloreds Only section.

How many country clubs are publicly owned? Not many. That means that the people that own the country club shouldn't have to allow the Jews in.

If I run a private school and won't allow Methodists in, that should be okay, I guess.

As for gay pride parades, they're better when our straight allies join us. I like seeing the PFLAG parents out marching for their children and straight children who were raised by gay parents marching for their dads or moms.

What I think is a waste of resources is the number of people who decide that they're going to fight treating every person in this country as an equal. But, hey, I might just be, you know, progressive. Whites Only, Christians Only, No Catholics Allowed, No Jews Allowed, No Gays Allowed. All of these belittle the humanity of every person.

[HamdenRice]

93. Dumbest. Post. Ever. And that's saying a lot considering the nuttery posted lately

Your analogy is completely wrong. The park is analogous to the restaurant. The groups using the park are analogous to groups of restaurant patrons.

By your logic, every group that comes into a restaurant would have to be multiracial or would be excluded. If you are not part of a multiracial family, then you could not be seated.

If the mostly German Weimhofer family did not have some member of color, then you would deem it to be discriminatory, like a boy scout troop that didn't include atheists.

The restaurant, like the park, should be open to all comers -- groups that are inclusive and groups that are delimited.

See how it works?

[Creideiki]

95. Dumbest. Attempt. To. Justify. Own. Post. Ever.

The analogy is perfect. If someone has a public accomodation, they don't get to discriminate against people just because of certain characteristics. Race and religion are the most common, and protected at the federal level. However, there are *gasp* some states that also don't allow people to discriminate against gay people. If they're going to rent out the space to the general public, then they don't get to decide not to discriminate against someone because he or she is gay.

Do you get it now?

[HamdenRice]

97. Do you realize you've proved my point?

"If someone has a public accomodation, they don't get to discriminate..."

Who has the public accommodation? The park or the boy scouts? The restaurant or the Weimhofer family?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sometimes, pointing out stupidity on DU is like shooting fish in a barrel!

[Creideiki]

98. Charge the boy scouts the same as everyone else.

The discrimination going on is that the Scouts think they shouldn't have to pay the same rental rates.

[HamdenRice]

102. Fair enough

But I'm opposed to withholding permits on the basis of a group's political views. The Ku Klux Klan has a right to use public property for rallies (remember Skokie?). If the Klan can use parks, so can the boy scouts.

We need to face the fact that that scouts have defined themselves as a quasi religious organization. Trying to force them to change that or trying to punish them by withholding public space is counter productive, vindictive and unconstitutional.

[KitchenWitch]

96. The Boy Scouts recruit in the public schools.

They should not be allowed to recruit in the public schools if they are going to be an exclusive heterosexuals only club. Period.

[Hepburn]

88. Totally great!

I love the 9th cir ~~ well, most of the time! :hi:

[RCinBrooklyn]

89. Modern version of Hitler Youth in America.

[noonwitch]

92. Are the scouts paying for using the park?

If they are paying, then it shouldn't matter-it's a rental agreement kind of thing. If the city was letting them use the park for free, then it is a violation.


It's like public schools that rent out their space to churches on Sunday. They are not endorsing any religion, they are just making some money off of it.

[CRK7376]

100. As an Eagle Scout since

1973, father of one Eagle Scout, and a soon to be Eagle Scout, this is a very tough discussion. I love Scouting, and have served with multiple Boy Scout Troops as an adult leader across the globe, thanks to the US Army. I have lots of problems with National Council mandates and how the BSA has, by the way I see it, been hijacked by the fundamentalist Right. Although I was raised in the Methodist Church, and I still believe in a higher power/spirituality, I find it very repressive the way BSA has gone to the extremes on the religion issue. The Eagle Scout application has a place in the recommendations section that the Scout fills out asking for a Religious Leader's recommendation. My eldest son earned his God and COuntry through the Church that supported our Troop, but our family was not a member of that church. The minister that taught/guided the God and Country program/award gave my eldest son for his recommendation. So that worked out ok. My other son who is working on his Eagle Project and will have to fill out his application this spring is in a much more difficult situation. He has plenty of time before aging out, 18 for his Eagle, but he has not earned his God and C Country award and doesn't have a relationship with minister. So we're in a bit of a quandary. Fortunately BSA has an answer for that one too....In the case of a Scout not having an endorsement of a religious leader, the Scout has to write a letter explaining his belief in a higher Deity/power/spirituality etc...So I suspect that's the way our younger son will have to go. My wife and I were burned out as teens from parents that forced church/religion down our throats for years. We are not church members, but we both believe in a spirituality etc...We see alot of hypocrisy in organized religion. So we have religious issues, which may or may not make our younger son's efforts to get his Eagle a little more difficult.

Discrimination is discrimination and the BSA does plenty of that. Unfortunately,the National/Local stance on homosexuality often gets in the way of good Scout leaders and Scouts. Fortunately the troop we are associated with has always turned a blind eye in that regard. I suspect that there are many homosexual Scouts and Scout Leaders that will leave Scouting because of Council/National decisions, but there will also be many that stay. As parents, my wife and I have raised all 3 of our children to be open, colorblind to race/religion/sexuality, ignore forced religion (allowing them to make their own religious choices, but it is a daunting task.

BSA has tremendous things to offer young men, teaches values and morals, unfortunately it discriminates too. I see more good than bad and will continue to support the BSA. For me, BSA helped make me the man I am today. I learned more about leadership in the BSA than I learned in my college ROTC program. I have had a very successful military career, had worked with/for/lead great officers and NCOs, and I offer pretty good leadership to my Soldiers too because of many of the things I learned as a Boy Scout, and as a Boy Scout Leader. So I am in a quandary on this issue. I will continue to wrestle with the BSA stance on religion and homosexuality. But I will support BSA, with luck my younger son will earn his Eagle this spring and he and I will have a fantastic trek at Philmont this summer.

[Piewhacket]

104. Nice post...

we sometimes belong to organizations we do not fully agree with.
take the democratic party, for example ;)

yet it is a matter of subject, degree, and conscience.
i could not belong to the nazi party, no matter how much charity
they might do. i will not accept a policy that condones torture
no matter how much "truth" might be acquired or how "safe" it
might make my country. subject, degree, conscience.

yet in most other cases we can accept the good while offering
our voice in objection trying to change what we see as not right.
I think that is proper. subject, degree, conscience.

As you describe it The "God and Country" award requirement of
Eagle Scout appears troubling to me. Review of material at various
scouting sites lead me to conclude the _duty to god_ requirement
is sufficiently pervasive and entangling to constitute a
religious requirement. A monotheistic belief is mandatory,
not optional. This might permit Christian, Jewishs, and
Islamic faith, but would definitely prohibit atheists, and
probably Hindu and other major religious sects.

This _requirement_ is overwhelmingly pervasive and it is made
clear that some are simply not welcome. It applies at EVERY
level of Scout, not just Eagle. That is discrimination
on the basis of religious belief. Churches may (obviously) have
such a requirement, yet it is an exclusionary policy
which may have serious legal consequences.

For example:
CA Government Code section 11135 prohibits any program or activity funded
by or receiving financial assistance from the State from discriminating against
or unlawfully denying benefits to a person on the basis of that person's
ethnic group identification, religion, age, sex, color, or disability.

When I was a scout, this was not a "requirement", or at least was treated as
aspirational, or optional. If you were a moral, honest, upstanding person
your personal religious beliefs were not inquired into.

As you have explained (and I have verified) for Eagle Scout your religious
beliefs must be professed and subject to examination and review, to INQUISITION.
Not all churches do that, but some do, including the LDS Church so prominent in BSA.
They think it right, but is it? A Scout may be a Mormon, but why must they be a Mormon?

BSA can have such policies of exclusion and _requirement_, that is not the question.
But should they. That is the question. Must BSA be enfolded into the LDS
church and system of beliefs? Hijacked into the church. Can't atheists,
agnostics, and others be good scouts too? Shouldn't they be allowed to try.

[Piewhacket]

105. You Eagle Scout whippersnappers, Why back in MY day...

(My Scouting Story. All true, I swear)

Back in the olden days, as young scouts going for our
camping merit badges, my buddy and I planned a hike (10 mi) and
overnighter deep in the woods of Maine. As all good Scouts should,
we were prepared for all contingencies, had even included vorpal blades
in our kits, in the event we encountered the dreaded Jabberwock
hiding in the tulgey woods. Then snicker-snack, the vorpal blades,
adieu the Jabberwock.

All was approved, but on the appointed day there was a wind blowing
and some falling snow. We looked, shrugged, and proceeded. This was Maine. We lived
here. We make snow forts in 5 feet of snow every winter for fun.
We set out, our hike did get a little arduous at times but after five miles
we paused to repack our (marginally organized) packs and have a cold snack.
The snow fell, about 4 inches in a few hours, the wind blew, it was COLD... but we
were fine. It was beautiful. Wow! Quiet. Awesome.

We reached our destination, light was failing, snow fall greater,
colder, we set up camp. one man tents.
The ground was a little hard for the tent stakes, permafrost, but hey we
managed. Even rounded up a little wood and got a little fire going, in
the wind and falling snow, stacking snow as a shield, all for cheer.
We talked, horror stories, sang, and generally dorked around as a
foot of new snow added to the foot of old snow. Got cold, went to bed.
During the night my buddy's tent collapsed due to snow and we had to
set it back up again. Annoying, but thats the camping adventure, eh?

Next morning we were up early because the Scoutmaster was supposed
to show up to verify completion of our merit badge (our destination
was near a road, all part of the plan). The snow was still
falling, wind had picked up a bit, and it was a pretty brisk chill.
We rounded up some more wood and got the fire restarted, a little
wimpy fire maybe, nearly blowing out, but technically a campfire,
so hey we were ready for the scoutmaster.

The scoutmaster was late. hmmm. We weren't that hungry but a hot meal
was obligatory, so I pulled out the bacon slices and four eggs, somehow cranked
up the fire from a state of "deceased" to a sputtering "anemic" and got
the bacon going. The Scoutmaster showed up with a weird look on his face.

Did he have trouble finding us? No, what were we doing out in this storm?
"Storm? What storm? Want some breakfast?", We asked. He shook his head,
two plus feet of snowfall and 5-10 below zero (42 degrees below freezing),
20+ below zero wind chill, THAT storm, the roads still weren't cleared.
He had figured we had canceled.

Cancel? No way.
"Yeah, it was a bit cold.", one of us replied, "but it seemed ok,
no problem". The bacon was kinda raw, but I went ahead and cooked the eggs.
Between the cold and the wind it was hardly my best effort. I showed the scoutmaster
and he said "ok". My buddy and I each took one bite and the scoutmaster
shivered and declared: "Close enough! You pass. I'm giving you a ride home. Lets go."

At the merit badge award they made a big deal about the whole thing, about how
we encountered and overcame great difficulties, scouting tradition... yada yada.
I caught my buddy's eye and his expression said what I was thinking.
Ok it was an unexpected storm. A winter MAINE storm. And we were out in it overnight.
So? No big deal. We're Scouts.